Talk:Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki

Edit Request Concerning Leaflets Dropped on Hiroshima

Under the heading "Choice of Targets," the author inaccurately claims that "The US had previously dropped leaflets warning civilians of air raids on 35 Japanese cities, including Hiroshima and Nagasaki." The article cited to says nothing about leaflets dropped on Hiroshima before the August 6 bombing. The article cited merely states that on August 9, leaflets were dropped across Japan detailing the destruction of Hiroshima. A Los Angeles Times article confirms that leaflets warning civilians of atomic destruction were not dropped until after Hiroshima was struck (http://articles.latimes.com/2005/aug/05/opinion/oe-bird5). Moreover, the Truman administration's silence on the impending atomic destruction of Hiroshima before August 6 is detailed in several news artifacts in the Hiroshima Peace Museum. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.10.11.164 (talk) 09:50, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

The USAAF official history (The Pacific: Matterhorn to Nagasaki, p. 656) identifies the cities warned on the night of 27/28 July as "Aomori, Tsu, Ichinomiya, Uji-Yamada, Ogaki, Uwajima, Nishinomiya, Kurume, Nagaoka, Koriyama, and Hakodate". More leaflets were dropped on 1 and 4 August, but the official history doesn't identify the cities targeted. Nick-D (talk) 21:54, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

Various sources say various things about this, though all agree that leaflets were dropped after Hiroshima and before Nagasaki.

• "American planes did drop leaflets warning Hiroshima inhabitants that the city was going to be demolished and urging them to evacuate from it. But these were apparently similar to leaflets dropped over all Japan's major cities, and there was no mention of the atomic bomb. Moreover very few people appeared to have seen the leaflets, and those who did tended to ignore them as enemy propaganda." The threat of impending disaster; contributions to the psychology of stress, page 188. George Herbert Grosser, Henry Wechsler. MIT Press, 1964.
• "American aircraft two days earlier [meaning August 4] had dropped three-quarters of a million warning leaflets informing citizens of Hiroshima that the city would be obliterated, but few Japanese had heeded the message." A Patriot's History of the United States, page 699. Larry Schweikart, Michael Allen. Penguin, 2007.
• "General LeMay's bombers had been dropping warning leaflets on Japanese cities in the ten days before the destruction of Hiroshima, but... these leaflets were not dropped on Hiroshima or Nagasaki and the warnings made no mention of a new, more devastating atomic bomb." Collateral Damage: Americans, Noncombatant Immunity, And Atrocity After World War II, page 172. Sahr Conway-Lanz. CRC Press, 2006.
• "Leaflets were dropped on Hiroshima from American planes on July 27, threatening Hiroshima (and other major cities on which they were dropped) with total destruction if Japan did not surrender immediately, but they made no mention of the atomic bomb or of any other special weapon. Nor did the leaflets appear to have reached many people..." Death in Life: Survivors of Hiroshima, page 17. Robert Jay Lifton. University of North Carolina Press, 1987.
• "Before the Hiroshima bomb was dropped, the city was given the standard psychological warfare treatment prior to an incendiary attack. Leaflets were dropped on Hiroshima, indicating, along with several other cities, that they were to be fire bombed within a few days and to evacuate the city. The leaflets are on display at the Peace Museum in Hiroshima and were dropped on the city several days prior to the atomic bombing." No Strategic Targets Left, page 103. F. J. Bradley. Turner Publishing Company, 1999.
• "But, the leaflet continued, unless the country agreed to immediate surrender, the bombings would continue. On the back of the leaflet, along with a photograph of a superfortress, were listed the cities destined for destruction: Otaru, Akita, Hachinohe, Fukushima, Urawa, Takayama, Iwakuni, Tottori, Imabaru, Yawata, Miyakonojo, and Saga. Hiroshima, it will be noted, was absent from that list; so were Nagasaki, Kokura, and Niigata." The Day man lost: Hiroshima, page 215. Bungei Shunjū Senshi Kenkyūkai. Kodansha International, 1981.

I think we will have to tell the reader that several contradictory versions of the leaflet story appear in our reliable sources: that the leaflets were dropped or not dropped on Hiroshima, that Hiroshima was listed or not listed as a target for destruction. Binksternet (talk) 03:26, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

The leaflet story was started by the Truman White House, which had it inserted into the 1947 movie at the bombing, The Beginning or the End. In his review of the movie in The Bulletin of Atomic Scientists (March 1947, p. 99) , Harrison Brown described this as "the most horrible falsification of history" in the film:

Actually Hiroshima was a secondary target and had not been pelted with leaflets at all. Several other Japanese cities were warned of the possibility of destruction but no mention was made in the leaflets of atomic bombs.

Hawkeye7 (talk) 23:42, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm trying to mediate this, as I AM a history dork too. It would appear that XXzoonamiXX is most likely Japanese (My assumption). Keep that in mind as we proceed, Mr. Binksternet. Obviously there is no level of hair-splitting that is too much for someone who could have a deep emotional investment in the historical accuracy...even of the smallest detail of moral or ethical error or omission. Obviously Japan and its people have the dubious distinction of being the only ones having had a nuclear attack perpetrated upon them. If that's not cause for sensitivity, I don't know what is. I think both XXzoonamiXX and Mr. Binksternet also need to recognize and work with XXzoonamiXX's language barrier. That's an obstacle.

If I'm not mistaken, from reading these notes, XXzoonamiXX (fun handle) seems to think there is a moral case to be made and understood by readers if Hiroshima had been leafleted, but, the city itself was not listed in that leaflet for possible destruction. XXzoonamiXX has told me that it bears mentioning that even though Hiroshima WAS leafleted that it's name did not appear on the leaflet sited in, The Day man lost: Hiroshima. Is that correct XXzoonamiXX? --50.128.155.168 (talk) 07:23, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

POV site for removal

During the war "annihilationist and exterminationalist rhetoric" was tolerated at all levels of US society; according to the UK embassy in Washington the Americans regarded the Japanese as "a nameless mass of vermin".[115] Caricatures depicting Japanese as less than human, e.g. monkeys, were common.[115] A 1944 opinion poll that asked what should be done with Japan found that 13% of the US public were in favor of "killing off" all Japanese: men, women, and children.[116][117]

This is 100% POV, the UK actually supported the bombing. If you wish to keep it, please site the UK popular view at the time, of the Japanese.

http://www.nuclearfiles.org/menu/library/biographies/bio_churchill-winston.htm http://www.opendemocracy.net/globalization-institutions_government/nagasaki_2733.jsp http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/august/6/newsid_3602000/3602189.stm

I write a nice paragraph about all the countries that took part in this or at least gave there consent. I am amazed at the revisionism that takes place on these pagesJacob805 22:11, 11 December 2012 (UTC)

So were leaflets were dropped on August the 1st?

Ok I read in the article sections here. It seems like both sides were discussing whether it's true the leaflets were dropped on Hiroshima. However, from the article's "Leaflet" section on the Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, it appears that it give an impression to the reader that the leaflets were NOT dropped at Hiroshima about the firebombings (not the A-bombings I understand) at all so it's appears to be one-sided. From the Global Security and official CIA sources (and they were considered a legitmate sources for Wikipedia), the leaflets were indeed dropped on Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and other 33 Japanese cities on August 1st, warning that those cities were going to be destroyed by firebombings (not the A-bomb itself). If we just keep it like that, it's like me thinking that the "LeMay bombing leaflet" on Google was just a lies. My problem is that the Hiroshima Peace Museum leaflet says that 12 cities were targetted for firebombings and Hiroshima was not. Yet the sources i mentioned above that Hiroshima, Nagasaki and 33 other Japanese cities were warned on August 1st based what the "LeMay bombing Leafet" says. I can't called those sources a lie so you can't just come to the automatic conclusion that the fact is the leaflets on Hiroshima were NOT dropped at all. That's what i felt that section needed some balance and i wanted some tweaks to it. XXzoonamiXX (talk) 06:27, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

I don't get that impression at all from the current wording - it notes that different sources say different things. Nick-D (talk) 06:53, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

I know what you said on your last sentence and I get it already. My point is that everytime i read the "Leaflet" section many times (and i tried to undestand carefully), it appeared to me that the reader will automatically conclude that the leaflets were NOT dropped at Hiroshima at all about the firebombings so it looks like it is one-sided. That's what i wanted to add some things in that section to achieve a balance. Like I could readd the CIA and Global Security Page of the "LeMay Bombing Leaflet" to that section. XXzoonamiXX (talk) 07:06, 30 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm really struggling to see the relevance of this, and why it should not be struck from the article, as the larger it gets, the closer it becomes to WP:UNDUE. Now while leaflets may or may not have listed Hiroshima by name for firebombing, the city clearly expected to be fire bombed and prepared for the eventuality. Hawkeye7 (talk) 00:02, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

There are a number of contradictions on this topic (see the section above at Talk:Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki#Edit Request Concerning Leaflets Dropped on Hiroshima), so I think we ought to stick with scholarly books and the main points rather than websites and specifics. Binksternet (talk) 00:33, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

While people look for websites about this, they would get confused whether it was dropped or not and this would cause a major conflict in the internet, especially for debates. Websites can be useful to the article as well and last time it is legal to do that on Wikipedia as long as it is the legit news, government agencies, and Global Security as well. Even some sources (and historians told me) say Nagasaki and Kokura wasn't going to be hit with warning leaflets either which but it did. Not a lot of people who going check the links are going to spend time to buy books online and see it was truthful or not because i see a lot of them that tend to make exaggerations. So I'm going to spend time reworking on the "Leaflet" section of the article on my notes in Microsoft Word and see how you people will like it. It may take a while. XXzoonamiXX (talk) 03:52, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Ok i spend a day over this. I was busy over the week so how do you like it?

"For several months, the US had dropped more than 63 million leaflets across Japan warning civilians of air raids. The Japanese cities suffered terrible damage, some even 97% destruction. In general, the Japanese regarded the leaflet messages as truthful, however, anyone who was caught in possession of a leaflet was arrested by the Japanese government. In preparation for dropping an atomic bomb on Hiroshima, US military leaders had decided against a demonstration bomb, and they also decided against a special leaflet warning, in both cases because of the uncertainty of a successful detonation. No warning was given to Hiroshima that a new and much more destructive bomb was going to be dropped. Various history books give conflicting information about when the last leaflets were dropped on Hiroshima prior to the atomic bomb: Robert Jay Lifton writes that it was 27 July but the USAAF history notes 11 cities targeted with leaflets on that date, none being Hiroshima. Other leaflet sorties were undertaken on 1 and 4 August, according to the official USAAF chronology. However it is very likely that Hiroshima was leafleted in late July or early August, as survivor accounts talk about a delivery of leaflets a few days before the atomic bomb was dropped. The U.S. Office of War Information (OWI) revealed that on 1 August 1945, over 1 million leaflets were dropped on Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and 33 other Japanese cities, warning civilians that the cities was going to be destroyed and advised them to leave to save their own lives."

Now noticed, I took out in the beginning the first sentence of the paragraph, “The leaflets listed 35 cities targeted for destruction by bombing” after the sentence “For several months, the US dropped more than 63 million leaflets" because it doesn’t make any sense that 35 cities were targeted by 63 million leaflets if the other "35 cities" were also targeted by leaflets on August 1 so it make sense to take that first sentence, "“The leaflets listed 35 cities targeted for destruction by bombing” out. Then I took out the “Hiroshima Peace Museum” as well. It doesn’t make sense to me; saying only 12 cities were targeted and I usually don’t take museums as a source since they tend to lie and sometimes tend to exaggerated. Now I spend over some few days how to put it all together. So can I put this in? XXzoonamiXX (talk) 05:56, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

The Hiroshima Peace Museum is well regarded internationally, and is the major museum which covers this topic. Nick-D (talk) 07:38, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Ok I take it back about the Peace Museum but i meant they are some conflicts, Strategic Targets Left, page 103. F. J. Bradley. Turner Publishing Company, 1999 says that leaflets were dropped on Hiroshima and is displayed on the Hiroshima Peace Museum yet Shunjū Senshi Kenkyūkai. Kodansha International, 1981 says it is not displayed on a Peace Museum. That's why i decided to omit both from it and readd the Global Security Link. XXzoonamiXX (talk) 15:50, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

The only new part of your suggested text is the following:

• "The U.S. Office of War Information (OWI) revealed that on 1 August 1945, over 1 million leaflets were dropped on Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and 33 other Japanese cities, warning civilians that the cities was going to be destroyed and advised them to leave to save their own lives."

Your one new source is the globalsecurity.org page.[1] Your word choice—"revealed"—is too assertive, as if there was doubt or deceit which OWI revealed with the one correct fact. John E. Pike, director of globalsecurity.org, challenges the cia.gov website by saying "contrary to claims made by the US Government these leaflets did not reveal the special nature of Hiroshima's destruction, which came nearly a week after the leaflet campaign began." Thus, we have contradictions in our sources, and an absence of one true "revealing" fact. Also, your addition says there were "over 1 million leaflets" dropped on 1 August, but globalsecurity.org does not say this. Instead, the cia.gov website says "About 1 million leaflets fell on the targeted cities whose names appeared in Japanese writing under a picture of five airborne B-29s releasing bombs."[2] Those 12 names of targeted cities did not include Hiroshima or Nagasaki, so we cannot say, based on the CIA website, that the leaflets absolutely were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Instead, it is John E. Pike who says "Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and 33 other Japanese cities on 1 August 1945". Pike alone cannot be quoted as the one true source, especially when other respected sources are in contradiction. Binksternet (talk) 16:57, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

The Global Security link i read and found did not say anything about John E. Pike directly quote that the leaflets were going to be dropped on Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and others warning about the firebombings nor challenging the use of it either. I would not put this link if they was a guy who owned the site or any other way who quoted that Hiroshima was warned with firebombing leaflets. I assume that "leaflets did not reveal the special nature of Hiroshima's destruction, which came nearly a week after the leaflet campaign began" which it was supposed to be an A-bomb so i don't know why that sentence about not revealing special nature was put there in the 1st place when they should have removed that Hiroshima was not warned but it did not. XXzoonamiXX (talk) 18:10, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Fine I reworked on this for a day again so is this good this time?

"For several months, the U.S. had dropped more than 63 million leaflets across Japan warning civilians of air raids. The Japanese cities suffered terrible damage from massive bombing raids, some even 97% destruction. In general, the Japanese regarded the leaflet messages as truthful, however, anyone who was caught in possession of a leaflet was arrested by the Japanese government. In preparation for dropping an atomic bomb on Hiroshima, the U.S. military leaders had decided against a demonstration bomb and they also decided against a special leaflet warning, in both cases because of the uncertainty of a successful detonation. No warning was given to Hiroshima that a new and much more destructive bomb was going to be dropped. Various history books give conflicting information about when the last leaflets were dropped on Hiroshima prior to the atomic bomb: Robert Jay Lifton writes that it was 27 July but the USAAF history notes 11 cities targeted with leaflets on that date, none being Hiroshima. Other leaflet sorties were undertaken on 1 and 4 August, according to the official USAAF chronology. It is very likely that Hiroshima was leafleted in late July or early August, as survivor accounts talk about a delivery of leaflets a few days before the atomic bomb was dropped. On 30 July, American planes dropped leaflets over Hiroshima warning that, “If the war goes on, Japan will be destroyed” although they never mentioned about the atomic bomb. Other account said that within a few days on early August prior to an atomic bomb attack, more leaflets were dropped on Hiroshima, along with several other Japanese cities, warning that the cities would be firebombed and advised residents to evacuate the city. A Japanese soldier in Hiroshima also recalled a B-29 bomber flying over the city and dropped hundreds of leaflets the night before the deployment of an atomic bomb. XXzoonamiXX (talk) 11:44, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

You write that there was absolutely a leaflet dropping raid on Hiroshima on 30 July. This bit is a very close paraphrase of the Theodore H. McNelly paper called "The Decision to Drop the Atomic Bomb", published as a chapter starting on page 131 of the Jacob Neufeld book Pearl to V-J Day: World War II in the Pacific. McNelly is a respected scholar but he is no more an authority than Robert Jay Lifton who said the leaflet date was 27 July. We have contradictions among our sources, so we cannot simply quote one of them and call it a day. McNelly should be mentioned in the same breath as Lifton, and countered by the USAF history.

Also, you add one eye-witness account but there are many such accounts. One of them is not more reliable than many of them.

As well, you jettisoned the bit about a leaflet kept at the Hiroshima Peace Memorial Museum, and what it says on it. That should stay in the paragraph! F. J. Bradley in No Strategic Targets Left mentions this museum and its leaflets. Binksternet (talk) 16:08, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Right, as the Japanese soldier doesn't know what he's talking about? They are many account of survivors where the leaflets was dropped but this guy was one of them and he was there. I'm not saying he was reliable than any other accounts but he was there as he vividly remembered it. And you think those sources i laid out are based on a lie or not enough truth right? I'm sure you know about this but i found these sources on the net and like i said earlier, you simply cannot put everything as one-sided making it appear was the truth and the sources i laid out appeared to be a bunch of lie. Besides, i still do not believe that, "One such leaflet is on display at the Hiroshima Peace Memorial Museum; it lists 12 cities targeted for firebombing: Otaru, Akita, Hachinohe, Fukushima, Urawa, Takayama, Iwakuni, Tottori, Imabari, Yawata, Miyakonojo, and Saga. Hiroshima was not listed". Well, the Japanese author said the leaflets were not dropped but he didn't mention in his book anything the leaflets on the Hiroshima Peace Museum not listing Hiroshima in the list in about the peace museum while F. J. Bradly said it was dropped a few days prior to the A-bomb attack and he said the leaflets were displayed in the Peace Museum. The fact what I'm seeing officially displayed on the "leaflet" section make it appeared one-sided. Last time i checked based on the reviews to people who had been to the Hiroshima Peace Museum, they did said about leaflets being dropped on the city a few or a week before the A-bomb was dropped as far as i know based on the reviews and people. XXzoonamiXX (talk) 16:49, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Bink, I reworked on this again, do you approve this?

"For several months, the U.S. had dropped more than 63 million leaflets across Japan warning civilians of air raids. The Japanese cities suffered terrible damage from massive bombing raids, some even 97% destruction. In general, the Japanese regarded the leaflet messages as truthful, however, anyone who was caught in possession of a leaflet was arrested by the Japanese government.

In preparation for dropping an atomic bomb on Hiroshima, the U.S. military leaders had decided against a demonstration bomb and they also decided against a special leaflet warning, in both cases because of the uncertainty of a successful detonation. No warning was given to Hiroshima that a new and much more destructive bomb was going to be dropped. Various history books give conflicting information about when the last leaflets were dropped on Hiroshima prior to the atomic bomb: Robert Jay Lifton writes that it was 27 July and and Theodore H. McNelly writes that it was 30 July but the USAAF history notes 11 cities targeted with leaflets on that date, none being Hiroshima, and no leaflet sorties on 30 July.. Other leaflet sorties were undertaken on 1 and 4 August, according to the official USAAF chronology. It is very likely that Hiroshima was leafleted in late July or early August, as survivor accounts talk about a delivery of leaflets a few days before the atomic bomb was dropped. Author Bungei Shunjū Senshi Kenkyūkai stated in this book that 12 Japanese cities were pelted with leaflets and Hiroshima didn't receive of them. However, other account said that within a few days prior to an atomic bomb attack on early August, leaflets were dropped on Hiroshima, along with several other Japanese cities, warning that they would be firebombed and advised residents to evacuate the city. The leaflets dropped on Hiroshima and other Japanese cities were displayed on the Hiroshima Peace Museum."

And to my knowledge, Bungei Shunjū Senshi Kenkyūkai didn't state what date the leaflets were dropped like saying "in a few, August 1st, or several days that the before the A-bomb attack", etc nor he stated any sentence in his book about the Peace Museum which is why I put it like this. XXzoonamiXX (talk) 18:26, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Bungei Shunjū Senshi Kenkyūkai says 30 July. He writes on page 219: "On 30 July, also, American planes dropped leaflets over the city of Hiroshima. They read: 'If the war goes on, Japan will be destroyed. This is certain. The longer the war goes on, the more Japan will be crippled and the harder will be the task of postwar reconstruction. It is not difficult for a man to give up his life for his country, but true loyalty now means the termination of the war and the concentration of the national effort on the rehabilitation of the country.'" Two other books corroborate this leaflet text: page 311 of The last great victory: the end of World War II, July/August 1945 by Stanley Weintraub (who also says 30 July), and page 228 of Fire of a thousand suns: the George R. 'Bob' Caron story, tail gunner of the Enola Gay, by tail gunner George R. Caron and co-author Charlotte E. Meares, who tell their readers this leaflet was dropped over Hiroshima on 4 August. Binksternet (talk) 18:51, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

In first sentence of the paragraph, it's true to what Senshi Kenkyūkai and Stanley Weintraub said so why did you put "no leaflet sorties on 30 of July" on the leaflet section of the article? You put it in there in the 1st place so i suggest you remove it and redd that part in. Like it or not, I still strongly object to the current writing in "leaflet" section because most of it I read made it appeared to the reader that the people of Hiroshima was NOT warned at all, even people like me could see that and i wanted to make changes to it. As for the leaflets being dropped on August 4th or August 1st, that's why i wanted to add F. Bradley's way like, "within a few days prior to an atomic bomb attack on early August, leaflets were dropped on Hiroshima, along with several other Japanese cities, warning that they would be firebombed and advised residents to evacuate the city. The leaflets were displayed on the Hiroshima Peace Museum.", just to solve this whole issue. XXzoonamiXX (talk) 19:20, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

In response to Bink, as far as I'm concerned, I don't think you could use "I think the reader would understand it was dropped" as an answer. You use "I don't think it is" as an answer? If i disagree then i also had right to change it if something is wrong as LONG the facts are truthful and not like mixing as if the two sources are the same. As far I'm reading, the current reading doesn't look like to me it is. The last sentence is bit problematic to me because it made it appear truthful and the use “likely” as the leaflet was dropped as a problem. Yes, I'm arguing how it LOOKED to appear to the reader. Everytime i make some few changes to it no matter what, you simply reverse because it does not fit in your view. That's all i want, just to tweak things a bit. As i said again, I know the sources ARE contradiction so i tweaked it like this that the Japanese author did not wrote somewhere at late July and FJ Bradley wrote somewhere at late August the leaflets were dropped and it was displayed in the museum. But also my problem is you mixed those two links like the Japanese author and F.J. Bradley author books, together when both sources did not say any of them so it gives a bad impression to the reader that Hiroshima wasn't targeted with warning leaflets at all. Again, it's not just for intelligent reader but also an average reader as well. I don't think F.J. Bradley wrote that the 12 leaflet cities were targeted with no Hiroshima listed there and the Japanese author only wrote that the leaflets were displayed with 12 cities targeted and none being Hiroshima somewhere before July 30th and so you mixed those two links up to make it appear truthful. Besides, did the "Mattterhorn" book say that the USAAF did say the leaflets were NOT dropped on July 30th. Now honestly how that's supposed to be actual facts and proof? Are you talking about an air raid or something? BTw, fine i make some changes do you like it? I had two.

• For several months, the U.S. had dropped more than 63 million leaflets across Japan warning civilians of air raids. The cities in Japan suffered terrible damage from massive bombing raids, some even 97% destruction. In general, the Japanese regarded the leaflet messages as truthful, however, anyone who was caught in possession of a leaflet was arrested by the Japanese government.

In preparation for dropping an atomic bomb on Hiroshima, the U.S. military leaders had decided against a demonstration bomb and they also decided against a special leaflet warning, in both cases because of the uncertainty of a successful detonation. No warning was given to Hiroshima that a new and much more destructive bomb was going to be dropped. Various history books give conflicting information about when the last leaflets were dropped on Hiroshima prior to the atomic bomb: Robert Jay Lifton writes that it was 27 July but the USAAF history notes 11 cities targeted with leaflets on that date, none being Hiroshima. Author Bungei Shunjū Senshi Kenkyūkai also wrote in his book that 12 cities in Japan were targeted with leaflets listed for firebombing somewhere in late July, none being Hiroshima. However, other leaflet sorties were undertaken on 1 and 4 August, according to the official USAAF chronology. It is very likely that Hiroshima was leafleted in late July and early August, as survivor accounts talk about a delivery of leaflets a few days before the atomic bomb was dropped.. One account said that a few days on early August before an A-bomb attack, more leaflets were dropped on Hiroshima and several other Japanese cities, warning the cities would be firebombed and urged civilians to evacuate the city. The leaflets were displayed in the Hiroshima Peace Memorial Museum.

Now again, noticed in the last link, i do mixed those two links together as they appeared to be truthful because F.J. Bradley did not say this.

or

• For several months, the U.S. had dropped more than 63 million leaflets across Japan warning civilians of air raids. The cities in Japan suffered terrible damage from massive bombing raids, some even 97% destruction. In general, many Japanese civilians regarded the leaflet messages as truthful, however, anyone who was caught in possession of a leaflet was arrested by the Japanese government.

In preparation for dropping an atomic bomb on Hiroshima, the U.S. military leaders had decided against a demonstration bomb and they also decided against a special leaflet warning, in both cases because of the uncertainty of a successful detonation. No warning was given to Hiroshima that a new and much more destructive bomb was going to be dropped. Various history books give conflicting information about when the last leaflets were dropped on Hiroshima prior to the atomic bomb: Robert Jay Lifton writes that it was 27 July but the USAAF history notes 11 cities targeted with leaflets on that date, none being Hiroshima. Tail gunner of Enola Gay crewmemeber George R. Caron and co-author Charlotte E. Meares also wrote that the leaflets were dropped over Hiroshima on 4 August. F.J. Bradley wrote that a few days on early August before an A-bomb attack, more leaflets were dropped on Hiroshima and several other Japanese cities, warning they would be firebombed and urged civilians to evacuate the cities. The leaflets were displayed in the Hiroshima Peace Memorial Museum. According to the official USAAF chronology, leaflet sorties were undertaken on 1 and 4 August. It is very likely that Hiroshima was leafleted in late July and/or early August, as survivor accounts talk about a delivery of leaflets a few days before the atomic bomb was dropped.

I spent over a week for this. The August 1st link i do it later though but i put it based on what you said. Now noticed the "Matterhorn" book didn't say anything about the leaflets not being dropped on the 30th of July when most of the other sources said it was (As you stated) so i removed that part out and put on the original form as you put it. I also put "F.J. Bradley" source on the bottom. Now noticed I do not mix those two links together as well in the last sentence because the Hiroshima Peace Museum did not document any leaflet drops listed of 12 cities and Hiroshima not listed. It doesn’t make any sense whatsoever. XXzoonamiXX (talk) 19:41, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Significant Minority -> Significant Majority

Under the headline "Depiction, public response and censorship", article states the following:

"News of the atomic bombing was greeted enthusiastically in the U.S.; a poll in Fortune magazine in late 1945 showed a significant minority of Americans wishing that more atomic bombs could have been dropped on Japan."

Based on context, it seems that it should say "a significant majority of Americans".

192.223.243.5 (talk) 16:39, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Or it could indicate a "Significant sized minority", like 45%, which is still a "minority" (at <50%), but also of significant size. We need someone to check the source, confirm, and then clarify the wording. Boneyard90 (talk) 17:54, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

This reference to the poll says 23% wanted to "use many more of them before Japan had a chance to surrender". IT lists further references at the bottom of the page. (Hohum ^@) 18:32, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

Leaflet listing names of targeted cities

Why are we having so many arguments about what the leaflet which names the targeted cities? One editor keeps removing the information, including the fact that Hiroshima was not named as a targeted city. What do our sources say?

• Richard Lee Miller says "Almost all of the major cities had been bombed except four: Kyoto, Niigata, Nagasaki, and Hiroshima. The leaflets the Americans had dropped the day before warned of devastation to a number of other cities: Yawata, Saga, Takayama, Akita. Ominously, Hiroshima was not on that list. It was never on the list." [3]
• Gifu.np.co.jp says leaflets were dropped on more than 32 cities in Japan at the end of July 1945. The leaflet listed 12 cities for destruction. [4]
• Bungei Shunjū Senshi Kenkyūkai says "On 30 July, also, American planes dropped leaflets over the city of Hiroshima. They read: 'If the war goes on, Japan will be destroyed. This is certain. The longer the war goes on, the more Japan will be crippled and the harder will be the task of post-war reconstruction. It is not difficult for a man to give up his life for his country, but true loyalty now means the termination of the war and the concentration of the national effort on the rehabilitation of the country.'" (The Day man lost: Hiroshima, 6 August 1945, page 219.) On pages 214–215, he discusses the Potsdam Proclamation and Japan's indecision: "Nevertheless, after Togo left, His Majesty spent quite some time with his chamberlains, poring over both the English text and the Japanese translation [of the Potsdam Proclamation]. Half an hour after his audience with the emperor, Togo attended the regularly scheduled meeting of the Supreme Council for the Direction of the War. It is interesting to note that this was not considered an emergency session, and, with the exception of Togo, the Big Six did not regard the proclamation as an actual ultimatum. Even the final phrase—'The alternative for Japan is prompt and utter destruction'—failed to persuade them, for Japan had already been visited with nearly utter destruction. Between 17 July and 24 July, British and American planes had bombarded cities, airfields, and warships anchored in the Inland Sea. How, the Big Six wondered, could devastation be more prompt or utter? They were destined, unfortunately, to find out. That same day also the cabinet met, and they too decided to adopt a wait-and-see attitude. Their chief concern remained the status of the emperor, and so long as that was unclarified, they agreed that Japan must continue to procrastinate until the Soviet Union tendered its reply. Had Stalin subscribed to the proclamation, the Japanese government might have realized that it no longer had time for procrastination; but the Soviet Union, according to the terms of the earlier pact, was still in a state of neutrality. This was soon, with American assistance, to be circumvented, but for the moment the Japanese decision to delay its decision served Stalin's purposes well. With great astuteness, he was playing a cat-and-mouse game, a game in which he himself was the cat—while the mice were the Japanese government as well as the governments of his wartime allies. At that same cabinet meeting, it had been decided that the government would not attempt to withhold the fact of the proclamation from the people—this, indeed, would have been impossible—but instead would release the text in an expurgated version, instructing the newspapers to play it down as much as possible and to refrain from editorial comment. In an attempt to counter this anticipated move, the Americans, that same day, rained tens of thousands of leaflets onto Japan's twelve major cities, explaining the proclamation and pointing out that the Allied powers did not consider the Japanese people to be their enemies but rather the military that had plunged the country into this disastrous war. The surrender that the Allies were calling for, the leaflet said, would free the people from the army's stranglehold and create the opportunity for building a new and better Japan. But, the leaflet continued, unless the country agreed to immediate surrender, the bombings would continue. On the back of the leaflet, along with a photograph of a Superfortress, were listed the cities destined for destruction: Otaru, Akita, Hachinohe, Fukushima, Urawa, Takayama, Iwakuni, Tottori, Imabari, Yawata, Miyakonojo, and Saga. Hiroshima, it will be noted, is absent from the list; so were Nagasaki, Kokura, and Niigata."
• The CIA page says "By noon on 28 July, OWI's presses on Saipan were rolling with notices warning civilians to evacuate 35 Japanese cities scheduled to be bombed within the next few days. About 1 million leaflets fell on the targeted cities whose names appeared in Japanese writing under a picture of five airborne B-29s releasing bombs." [5]
• Theodore H. McNelly says "On July 30th, American planes dropped leaflets over Hiroshima announcing that 'if the war goes on Japan will be destroyed.' Neither in the Potsdam Declaration nor in the leaflets dropped on Japan was there a warning of the use of a revolutionary new weapon." [6]
• Robert Jay Lifton says that "Leaflets were dropped on Hiroshima from American planes on July 27, threatening Hiroshima (and other major cities on which they were dropped) with total destruction if Japan did not surrender immediately, but they made no mention of the atomic bomb or of any other special weapon. Nor did the leaflets appear to have reached many people—only a single person among those I interviewed, then a child, remembered picking one of them up, and when he brought it back to his elders, they scoffed at it, whether out of genuine disbelief or, more likely, a sense of how one was supposed to react to such a threat. In any case, the people of Hiroshima received no warning about the atomic bomb; American policymakers, for various strategic reasons, had decided against any prior notice." [7]

From these source I gather that Hiroshima was leafleted in late July (or early August) and that the leaflets listed cities targeted for destruction. Hiroshima was not listed. Binksternet (talk) 05:35, 16 February 2013 (UTC)

War crime

Why is missing the World War II crimes among the categories? --Norden1990 (talk) 01:25, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

Probably because it has never been agreed with absolute certainty that the acts were "crimes", and even if one thinks that they were crimes, consider that nobody has ever been charged, and there have never been any international judicial proceedings. Therefore, not a crime. Boneyard90 (talk) 15:05, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

Perfect example of double standards with famous phrases like: "success is never blamed", "victors are not judged", "victors don't have to justify themselves". Humanity made universal meaning of what crime is it in UN international law. Westsomething (talk) 10:23, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

infobox

Am I only one who thinks that "infobox military conflict" looks just silly here? Not every article needs to have a box on upper right corner, and this is one of those that in my opinion would do well without one.--Staberinde (talk) 11:59, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

I think it is useful enough and that it looks okay. Binksternet (talk) 16:57, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

I don't really see any serious usefulness here. It just seems as an attempt to push nuclear cloud into standard box because most pacific war articles have one. But as this isn't normal "battle" in any meaningful sense, it just looks out of place.

Also looking at specific details, going from top:

1) Date - Why have here period then it was simply 2 different bombings? 7th august isn't different from 6th or 10th in this context.

2) Location - thats stating obvious that is already in title

3) Results - This looks like some weird humor. We have two cities wiped out and "result" is a debate, huh?

4) Belligerents - what makes UK a belligerent here?

5) Commanders and leaders - on one side we have guys who sat in plane that did the bombing, on other side we have guy who commanded half of all Japanese armed forces on Home Islands. This is meaningless, you could as well put Hirohito there.

6) Units involved - Manhattan district as combatant? And 509th Composite Group vs Second General Army?

7) Casualties and losses - Japanese casualties are relevant but also already in lede.

Overall I don't really see what this box adds to article that isn't already in lede. It just looks like an attempt to turn this thing into "battle" then it hardly is one in normal sense.--Staberinde (talk) 13:14, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

• This seems to demonstrate the value of the infobox, as you are learning something new.
  1. The reason that the Manhattan District is listed as one of the units involved is because it was. MED Project Alberta personnel prepared the bombs and were on board the planes during the missions. As a point of fact, the commander of the Hiroshima mission was Deak Parsons, and not, as many people think, Paul Tibbets.
  2. The British flag represents the British personnel on board the planes during the Nagasaki mission. They were there specifically to support the British government's desire that it should be an Allied rather than purely American mission.

Hawkeye7 (talk) 01:08, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

"Manhattan district" as a "unit" is only slightly less generalizing then for example "United States Army Air Forces" would be.

No, it was a district of the US Army Corps of Engineers. So similar to the 509th Composite Group:

Army Service Forces -> Corps of Engineers -> Manhattan District

Army Air Forces -> Twentieth Air Force -> 509th Composite Group Hawkeye7 (talk) 19:23, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

I dont see any mention of British personel in "Nagasaki" section (not counting British POWs), did I miss it? Nor do I see any mention of British participation in lede (only: ... conducted by the United States during ...). I see short mention about Truman agreeing with British presence in Potsdam, but this doesn't seem to be followed up anywhere. So unless I missed it somehow, the British participation in bombing is either missing from article, or its so trivial that it doesn't even deserve a mention in text.--Staberinde (talk) 18:23, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

This time Penney and Cheshire were allowed to accompany the mission, flying as observers on the third plane, Big Stink Hawkeye7 (talk) 19:17, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Oh, I failed to add up that Potsdam ultimatum part with this one. I guess it can be used as argument for inclusion in infobox, although quite very borderline criteria. But anyway, looks like I am alone in belief that infobox just looks unsuitable in this article, so let it be then.--Staberinde (talk) 20:47, 18 March 2013 (UTC)