Talk:Chile–Peru football rivalry

Rivalry? WTF?

In Chile this rivalry does not exist. In Peru only exists and is only due to the Pacific War, not sports.

Blogs

~Blogs as references aren't necessarily the best and most essential tools to use. Blogs may also prove to be overtly biased so any other kind of official reference would be ideal.Selecciones de la Vida 05:48, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but the blog was a reference to an article made by a Spanish newspaper (Not a Chilean or Peruvian newspaper; hence neutral). But if you say so, then so be it. Which by the way, if anybody could then find some usable reference(s)? That would be greatly appreciated. I'll keep searching for some, but I can't make any promises.MarshalN20 01:48, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Recent Matches

~The list is going to be extended in the near future to include all matches. The FIFA head to head chart is being used as a reference, and the games are being added in chronological order. Selecciones de la Vida 20:19, 25 August 2007 (UTC) -This page is heavily vandalized by Peruvian commentators, who don't know English and try to write absurd insults to Chile, like "they cry all the time" phrases in weird places. I suggest an entire review of this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.83.124.14 (talk) 04:14, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Further Improvements?

Well, the article has been created and fulfills its purpose as a good reference to the Chile vs. Peru rivalry. Thanks to all who participated in this (Most notably Selecciones de la vida and myself), but if any more information can be found then it is most welcome for somebody to post it up in here. A list of what would be neat to include in the article are: Pictures (Preferably of a match between the two teams) and some more interesting information that could make for a new section within the article.MarshalN20 12:43, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Copy and Paste of Bicycle kick article

Why does this article go so much in detail about the bicycle kick? If there’s another article entirely dedicated to that topic, why is it extensively being discussed here too? The format of this article is also inconsistent. The Chilean claim has no international recognition sub-section while the Peruvian claim does.

I say we should do away with the copy & paste of both claims and add a brief mention of the “controversy” regarding the origin of the kick, in addition to including a link to the main article.

Likeminas (talk) 17:44, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Thanks for your contribution Likeminas.--[|!*//MarshalN20\\*!|] (talk) 05:18, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

I deleted this section for the sake of fairness, the issue about the bicycle kick was only citing Peruvian references which is quite extraordinary and totally biased. Peru is the only country in latin america that has its own unique name for the "la chilena". And lets be honest my Peruvian Bloggers, would any good Peruvian dare call this skill "The Chilean" chile won the war by the way...lololol just to let you know lolololol --210.50.244.227 (talk) 21:46, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Chile and Peru rivalry

a rivalry between two countries that have never made a major impact in international footbal, chile was the first country to win a red card (caseli) it was also the first time in which video footage was used to refute the claims of an injured chilean player. He was acting in maracana. Chilevic (talk) 03:35, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Both Chile and Peru have made several major impacts in the sport, both positive and negative.--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 00:33, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Copa del pacifico

Im not convinced this is a true football rivalry, as I'm very sure this football rivalry only exists in Peruvian minds. However I suggest changing the title of this page to "Copa del Pacifico" which is the offical name of the chile-peru football contest.--Chelios123 (talk) 10:36, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Per the sources, the Copa del Pacífico is part of this rivalry but not all of it, and covers only 19 of the 74 games they've played. Note that Spanish Wikipedia has two articles, es:Rivalidad futbolística entre Chile y Perú and es:Copa del Pacífico (Chile-Perú). --Arxiloxos (talk) 13:48, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Yes, the "Copa del Pacifico" is disputed whenever any side feels like disputing it. This article is about the rivalry in general.--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 00:28, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Only a peruvian rivalry

In chile this rivalry doents exist, maybe in peru, but not in chile,Peru is not chile main rival in football — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.105.87.184 (talk) 00:14, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

If this was only a Peruvian rivalry, there would not be so many reliable sources that state otherwise.--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 00:30, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Inca del sur

A new team will be added to the Chilean football federation that will represent the Peruvian community in Santiago called "Inca del sur". The information is sourced from a Peruvian website but with a simple google search you can find out more. To put things in perspective, can you imagine an English team in the Scottish premier league or an Argentine team in the Uruguayan league. Footballing rivalry put aside, a Peruvian team in Santiago de chile seems to be a big deal and it will defiantly put a spanner in the works in this "football rivalry". If someone doesn't agree that this relevation doesn't deserve a place in this article, please please state your case. --Chelios123 (talk) 15:10, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

You are conducting a WP:OR in the page. Your personal conclusions are not acceptable in Wikipedia.--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 15:25, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

its not a lie, the peruvian team in chile is actually going to happen. i don't understand your position. lots of references out there. I can add more if you wish. Chelios123 (talk) 15:29, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

I don't know why you wish to delete this information, it's from a peruvian source, its factual, its about football, it involves chile and peru, what more do you want???? Personally i think its wonderful news. Peruvians in Santiago can finally have a team to represent them just like palestians, italians and the spanish do. Chelios123 (talk) 15:39, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Please stop edit warring in the article. Your addition constitutes WP:OR. Please read the WP:OR page. The source at no point claims this has any relevance to the football rivalry. In fact, only you are the one making a connection between an irrelevant news to the subject of this article. Regards.--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 16:05, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

• Please, let's not have an edit war on the article page. As I see it, the issue here is not whether the information is factual, but whether it's relevant to this article. A lot of the trouble is caused by the introductory phrase "Despite the alleged existence of a footballing rivalry between Chile and Peru", which appears to be yet another inappropriate expression of the editor's opinion, and is certainly not WP:NPOV. It's not obvious that the existence of a Peruvian ethnic team in Chile is (or is not) relevant to the rivalry between the national teams. Personally, I would not object to a purely neutral mention of this new team in the article, but only if consensus supports it, and in any event the tone of the content as currently proposed is not acceptable. --Arxiloxos (talk) 16:12, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

I've read the news information, and at no point does it make any connection to the rivalry. The information is completely irrelevant to this article. It would be relevant if the source directly claimed this demonstrated the non-existence of a rivalry; but this is not the case.--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 16:15, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Just a few sections above, Chelios' intentions are clearly pointed out with his statement: "Im not convinced this is a true football rivalry, as I'm very sure this football rivalry only exists in Peruvian minds". His actions constitute POV editing, and he is also well-aware that his reverts constitute edit warring behavior.--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 16:17, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

I've made a minor change to the paragraph which i hope gives a neutral view on the rivalry. its no longer an alleged rivalry, its a fierce rivalryChelios123 (talk) 16:29, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Your insistence on maintaining the WP:OR behavior is only reinforcing the edit war accusation. Please simply remove the irrelevant text in its entirety. Regards.--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 16:33, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

I disagree with your accusations, the news is totally relevant to this article, it adds an extra dimension to the rivalry. I'll be happy to reword the paragraph which might satisfy you in anyway.Chelios123 (talk) 16:41, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

I agree with MarshalN20 that the entire paragraph should come out unless and until there is consensus to include it. The change to "fierce rivalry" doesn't fix anything: it's still an unsourced attempt to invent a connection between the national rivalry and the new local team. In Los Angeles there is Chivas USA which was originally established with the intention of soliciting support from the local Mexican community; that hasn't worked so well [1], but more to the point here, no one would ever suggest that the existence of that MLS team diminishes the Mexico–United States soccer rivalry. And one more, minor note: the sources I've seen say that the new team's name is Incas del Sur (note the plural). --Arxiloxos (talk)

Arxiloxos makes an excellent comparison with Chivas USA and the Mexico-US rivalry.--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 16:55, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree, the paragraph I added doesn't diminish the rivalry but merely adds a unique dimension to the rivalry. If Marshall thinks it doesn't then i'll be happy to reword it to satisfy him. As comparing chile-peru to the USA-mexico soccer rivalry....well its the equivalent to comparing a USA-england cricket rivalry. One country likes cricket the other one doesn't.Chelios123 (talk) 17:12, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

I mean no disrespect to American football(soccer) but its Not a popular sport there. I don't believe there's a strong football culture in that country compared to in chile and peru. It doesn't compare Chelios123 (talk) 17:27, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Regarding my revert. I take no sides on the content dispute here but its clear from the discussion there is no consensus at this time to add the material. I would agree there is a degree of WP:OR in the material that was added, later versions are better but there needs to be a WP:CONSENSUS established. Per WP:BRD the onus would be to take it to talk rather than edit warring, which is clearly what happened here. That said the first edit summary wasn't helpful [2] labelling an edit senseless material that has nothing to do with the subject. is not likely to result in a collegial discussion and I would remind Marshall to A) WP:AGF and B) provide an informative edit summary in future. I would also suggest that Chelios123 refrain from edit warring, even if you take offense at such an edit summary responding in the way you did isn't going to calm matters. I'd end by reminding everyone that text doesn't convey emotion or nuance well and it is all too easy to misintepret a necessarily brief edit summary. OK folks over to you. Wee Curry Monster talk 19:46, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

thanks for the kind words but you seem to have a history in defending marshal which leads me to question your motives. Either way let the debate on the paragraph be ongoing until a impartial consensus is achieved. Chelios123 (talk) 20:28, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

You're not debating here, you're imposing your edit on the article. The idea of WP:BRD is to add it after you have gained WP:CONSENSUS not force it into an article anyway. I note your lack of WP:AGF and have commented at WP:3RRNB about your 4th revert. You will note also on every occasion I've disclosed my previous interactions with Marshall and you should also have noted that because of that I am more critical of him than I have been of you. Wee Curry Monster talk 20:39, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

I've seen the history, your so wrong. Either way if the paragraph gets shunned again I won't be reverting. In the end I thought it was a relevant piece to add to the article but somebody who will remain nameless simply didn't like it. Just look at the initial comments he gave. Good luck and no hard feelings Chelios123 (talk) 20:54, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Article Lede

I see this in a lot of articles, the lede was written first long ago when the article was a stub. It has never reflected the article itself. I would like to rewrite per WP:LEDE to simply state.

“ Chile and Peru share a long standing rivalry between the national football teams of both countries, their club teams, and their respective fans. Matches between the two nations are keenly contested and their games have a reputation for competitiveness. ”

Opinions are sought. Wee Curry Monster talk 15:38, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

• Some sources about the rivalry were identified during the AfD discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Chile–Peru football rivalry. A 2008 CNN article identifies this as one of the "top 10 international rivalries" and makes the connection between the countries' political history and their soccer rivalry. [3] A June 2013 article in The New York Times called "Peru, Chile and the War of the Pacific" says much the same thing with more detail.[4] Either in the lede or in the history section, these and the other sources could be used and cited. --Arxiloxos (talk) 16:00, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

• I suggest reading the articles on the war of the pacific and the chile-peru relations in-order to fully comprehend this rivalry. Just a side note in the the peruvian media a chile vs peru match is usually called the Clásico del Pacífico which is a clear reference to war of the pacific.Chelios123 (talk) 22:15, 15 November 2013 (UTC)