Talk:Middle Ages

Anti-Bulgarian bias

Before some days I added a short information about the arcitecture of the Tarnovo Artistic School, because, according to many leading experts the architecture and painting of the Second Bulgarian Empire play a important role in the history of European art. But my contributions was deleted, because of "18:23, 31 March 2014‎ Hchc2009 (talk | contribs)‎ . . (161,823 bytes) (-1,485)‎ . . (As previously, see the (long) talk page discussion on the weighting of this issue)" I see that in this Talk page is existing a dispute by ignoring of the history of Medieval Bulgaria (First Bulgarian Empire and Second Bulgarian Empire). Obviously the problem is that Tarnovo school is related to Bulgaria and the Second Bulgarian Empire. Why there is information about the Gothic and Romanesque style, but has no details about the Tarnovo style and architecture of the Balkans? The frescoes in Boyana Church is the starting point of Renaissance - it's the first realistic images in European art. I think that here exist a some form of Anti-Bulgarian bias. I think that some of the editors here are related to the anti-immigrant campaigns in the British medias and British politicians - populists, as Nigel Farage. They used a hatred against immigrants from Eastern and Central Europe (Bulgarians, Romanians, Poles, etc.) by their political goals - [1] . Ignoring the history of Bulgaria here is part of this sordid political campaign, especially now when forthcoming elections for European Parliament. --Ludogoro (talk) 14:45, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but to say "The frescoes in Boyana Church is the starting point of Renaissance - it's the first realistic images in European art." is just nonsense, and I don't think even Bulgarian specialists don't actually make such claims. Actually looking at the 1259 images is the best way to disprove this. They show a movement towards realism in the sense of the representation of volume and everyday detail, but so do other works from various parts of Europe. That they or other Tarnovo School works had any influence on developments in Italy and further West has not been demonstrated. The work of the Tarnovo school is probably under-rated in western-European sources, where it is essentially seen as part of a classicising movement in late Byzantine art, but hyperbolic claims don't help. Johnbod (talk) 15:00, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Your "Western-European sources", which you say are biased, because of Anti-Bulgarian campaigns (about the British sources) or because they still don't understand that the Cold War ended before 25 years. The frescoes in the Boyana Church are the starting point of the Renaissance - say it many Bulgarian and foreign experts, some of which I quoted in the text. Read what the sources says! Even the British sources, although many of them are infected by anti-Bulgarian bias, recognize it. Look at this documentary film about Sofia - on 14:27 is the part by Boyana church, where is saying that the Renaissance became from Sofia - [2]--Ludogoro (talk) 15:20, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

He is no art historian, and appears to be commentating a film on behalf of the Bulgarian tourist authories, so is hardly a WP:RS. Google books searches on various phrases show this sort of talk is common in guide-books on Bulgaria, but almost entirely absent in art history books about the Renaissance, Medieval art or even Byzantine art. For example, the over 600 pages in Evans, Helen C. (ed.), Byzantium, Faith and Power (1261–1557), 2004, Metropolitan Museum of Art/Yale University Press, ISBN 1588391140 don't seem to mention Bulgarian painting at all, to judge by the index. White, John. Art and Architecture in Italy, 1250 to 1400, London, Penguin Books, 1966, 2nd edn 1987 (now Yale History of Art series). ISBN 0140561285 is 680-odd pages, & has no index entry for Bulgaria. There are certainly nationalist factors in this disparity, but we need to ask ourselves on which side they are. Johnbod (talk) 18:18, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Ludogoro, I'd urge you to read and consider Wikipedia:No personal attacks when making some of the statements above. Hchc2009 (talk) 15:22, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

I did not attack anyone. It is real, that these problems exist in British society, historiography and media. Read the sources, before to comment, please! Many experts says that Boyana frescoes have a big role in European Renaissance. It is not my opinion! I just say what this sources says. --Ludogoro (talk) 15:34, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm content to accept that you didn't mean to, Ludogoro, not least because I suspect that English is not your first language. When you write comments such as "I think that some of the editors here are related to the anti-immigrant campaigns in the British medias and British politicians - populists, as Nigel Farage. They used a hatred against immigrants from Eastern and Central Europe (Bulgarians, Romanians, Poles, etc.) by their political goals", however, then many, including myself, will feel that is an attack on the editors concerned. Please don't do so again - comment on the content of the article, not your opinion of the editors. Hchc2009 (talk) 15:40, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

And in all honesty, most of the article was developed by myself, and I'm not British at all. Nor are my parents, grandparents or great-grandparents, so I could hardly be associated with a British nationalist party. So... you're a bit off base with those comments. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:24, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

If this were an art history article I might possibly be inclined to agree with the inclusion of this, but in a general article about the "Middle Ages" it would be a totally UNDUE inclusion, even if every art historian in the world were agreed on it, which I strongly doubt that they are. You are conflating "the renaissance ... in art" with "the renaissance", which is understandable, and art played an important role, but it's such a minor detail it's not worth including in such a massive overview article. --Dweller (talk) 16:30, 9 April 2014 (UTC) Why in this case in the article is included this minor detail In Italy the innovations of Cimabue and Duccio, followed by the Trecento master Giotto (d. 1337), greatly increased the sophistication and status of panel painting and fresco.. The Boyana frescoes was created in 1259, when Giotto is still unborn. It must be added in the article. --Ludogoro (talk) 17:04, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

User:Ludogoro, in this case you are only partly right. It is true that the frescoes in the Boyana Church are the first realistic images in European art, but it belong to the proto- Renaissance. In Bulgarian art history has only Proto-Renaissance (or Early Renaissance), because the Renaissance development of the Balkan countries was terminated by the Ottoman conquest in 14-15 century (1396 about Bulgaria). Here User:Johnbod must to know that the theory about "Giotto - The First" is just a legend. Actually this theory is very old - it was founded in 1550 by Giorgio Vasari in Lives of the Most Excellent Painters, Sculptors, and Architects. In some countries it is accepted as canonical and therefore some historians (especially British and American historians and experts, who do not know this kind of art, because they have no direct connection with it - in England has no proto -renaissance; the U.S. exist as a state from 1776) is not mention anything about the Tarnovo artistic School. Moreover Boyana murals are completely different and are not directly affected by Byzantine art. In fact, in 1259 when the images was created Byzantium does not exist (in the period from 1204 to 1261 Constantinople was under the rule of the Latin Empire). Boyana master is the first painter, who violate the canon and depicts his contemporaries - Kaloyan and Desislava who are rulers of Sofia (Sredets) and just like the Medicis were patrons of many artists and writers. Some experts like Ivan Duychev ("Medieval European art", 1979) believe that the Tarnovo artists are the creators of the Italian Renaissance, because many Bulgarian artists leave Bulgaria in 1285, because of Mongolo - Tatar invasions after the death of Emperor Georgi Terter. Moreover, after the establishment of the Latin Empire, Bulgarian culture comes into direct contact with the Catholic Europe and the ideas of Tarnovo Artists was spreading in Western Europe (Mavrodinov, "Medieval art"). In the 14th century many Italians from various city-states was studied in Tarnovo. Other experts say that the Bulgarian and Italian proto- Renaissance were developed independently.

P.S. This is my first comment in Wikipedia. If something in formatting is not correct, please to be excused. :)--Magnus Agripa (talk) 21:25, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

User:Johnbod, when you talking about nationalism, first look at this article. The main problem here is called pan-Germanism (in this case it included German, British and Dutch nationalism, as Germanic states). See the title that you have placed on the article for the Frankish Empire - "Carolingian Europe". It is the most used cliche by pan-Germanists. Because even in the time of Charlemagne, when the Frankish state stretching from Brittany to Poland, Europe is not Carolingian - at the beginning of the 9th century in Europe there are still three other great powers - Byzantium, Bulgaria and the Arabs in Spain. Moreover, the impact of the Franks was confined to the territories between Poland and Brittany and is very small compared to the Byzantine or Bulgarian influence, by the historian Peter Konstantinov in his "History of Bulgaria". The term "Carolingian Renaissance" is typical pan-Germanistic hyperbole according to Pancheva in her book "Theory of the literature" (ISBN:9545293497), which is cited above in the previous dispute. What Renaissance in the 9th century? According to the same book, the Franks not create literature in their own language - they use Latin, while in Byzantium and Bulgaria was making literature of own language (Greek and Bulgarian).

Other example: "Western society". What Western society in Middle ages? It is nonsense. The separation West-East is created during the time of Cold War. In Middle Ages has no communism, democracy, NATO or Warsaw Pact. Absolutely nonsenses!

At the same time the history of the Slavic countries (Bulgaria, Poland, Kievan Rus, Serbia) are completely ignored, and according to the article these states does not exist or exist in a some peripheral area (Typical about pan-Germanistic nationalism is the hatred against Slavic Europe). This is the main problem in this article. Cold War only exacerbated this problem. Can you explain what is the logic to have articles about Frankish State and Byzantine Empire, but to lack article about Bulgarian Empire? What is the logic to have articles about Gothic and Romanesque styles, but to lack the Byzantine, Preslav and Tarnovo style? Why in the article is detail proposed the history of France and England (100-years war, Joan of Arc and others), but lacking Serbia, Kievan Rus, Russian principalities or Hungary. Why is mentoined Joan of Arc, but is lacking the Uprising of Ivaylo

What is common between all allegations: All article (history, art, architecture) proposed only the history of Western Europe. There are two explanations - or the editors here believe that Europe is only the area between Atlantic Ocean and Germany, and to the east of Germany is located some other continent, or the article is affected by Western-European nationalism.--Magnus Agripa (talk) 05:38, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

I just scanned through the article and while parts focus on Western Europe, in particular Francia, it contains extensive discussion of the Byzantine Empire. The Magyar invasion is mentioned, the Baltic crusades, the Seljuk Turks, developments in Poland.

While there seems to be some Western European bias in the parts discussing cultural and art history, your conclusion is strongly overdrawn and not very constructive. QVVERTYVS (hm?) 13:21, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

If be mentoined also First Bulgarian Empire, Second Bulgarian Empire, The Golden Age, Preslav and Tarnovo style, the Boyana frescoes (as is mentoined about Giotto), Kievan Rus, Serbia in 14th century and the creation of the Glagolitic and Cyrillic scripts everything will be OK. --Magnus Agripa (talk) 13:49, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Kievan Rus' is mentioned under Middle Ages#New kingdoms and a revived Byzantium, as is the first Bulgarian empire, although it's not specifically named as such. The section needs expansion and copyediting. I'm not in a position to judge art history. QVVERTYVS (hm?) 13:58, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Bulgarian Empire is the second Empire in medieval Europe after the Byzantine Empire and is one of the most powerful states in Medieval Europe. This empire is founded by Asparukh in 681 - 119 years before the coronation of Charlemagne. But in this article is mentoined only in two sentences. About Byzantium has 2 articles, about the Frankish state - 3. Pan-Germanism in Action! --Magnus Agripa (talk) 14:30, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

If this article is so incredibly biased towards Britain, France & Germany, why are there no complaints from the Spanish, the Poles, the Lithuanians, the Russians, the Hungarians, the Georgians, or the Armenians? Why is it just Bulgarians over and over again with different names, but identical arguments? Furius (talk) 16:44, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

I read the whole discussion "Section about Bulgarian Empire" above in the talk page. The main problem of this article is that the sources you use are very local - only British and American experts, causing imbalance of the events. This is the main reason for the dominance of pan-Germanism and pro- British nationalism in this article. I see that some of the editors, which are defined by their opponents as Bulgarophobes show a willingness to change tis status quo, for example User:Hchc2009 said "I'd also be keen to see an Eastern European academic overview of the Middle Ages to compare the weighting against.". OK. Now these users have a chance to show that they are not a Bulgarophobes, as their opponents to blame them (perhaps unfairly or may be fairly), and respect all points of view, even those outside their home countries. See this one impartial history, describing events from the Paleolithic to the present day. The book is a work of Bulgarian and French historians, but it presents viewpoints of historians from 29 European countries, Japan, Canada, Brazil, Mexico and others. I see that above in the dispute "Section about Bulgarian Empire" User:Amandajm is posted the contents of the second book of the Middle Ages and 7th book of all encyclopedia. According to criticians this encyclopedia is unbiased overview of the most important events in world history and the most influential countries. There are Maya and Mesoamerican civilizations, Khmer Empire and Angkor, China, Japan, Mongol Empire, Central Asia. Look at the weight, which is given to Bulgarian Empire.

This is the book about the period 5 - 10 century "World History, part 6, Invaders and Empires", ISBN:9789548517515. On the cover is Bulgarian Emperor Simeon I The Great. - [3]. Here you even can see 4 pages of the book [4]. First Bulgarian Empire was identified as the most influential country in medieval Europe because it creates its own alphabet - Cyrillic and the ideas of Preslav school in literature, architecture and philosophy became standard for the cultures in Eastern and Central Europe and the Balkans. For "the Carolingian Empire," as you call the state of the Franks, is said very small (pages 109-115). The history of the Bulgarian Empire was presented to 38 pages (221-259).

The 7th book "World history. The Awakening of Europe 1000-1250" is proposed in the previous dispute by User:Amandajm. Here is listing the contents of the book, - [5] , translated into English above, in "Section about Bulgarian Empire" by User:Amandajm. If you really want one unbiased overview about Middle Ages, let's see what you do now!--Magnus Agripa (talk) 11:50, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

10 days silence! Wow! Why nobody of Anti-Bulgarian editors comment the book, quoted by Magnus Agripa? This is a wonderful encyclopedia of the history of the world. Hchc2009, you are one, who wanted to see a other overview from "Eastern Europe". Well, now there is a book and it presents the facts in a different way. Let's see if what you say is honestly!

About the proto-renaissance in the Boyana Church, Magnus Agrippa is presented the facts excellent. Johnbod, look at this sources, which confirm that the Renaissance began from Sofia - http://www.europost.bg/article?id=535 (Renaissance began with the Boyana Church The realistic frescos were painted almost a decade before the birth of Giotto), http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowUserReviews-g294452-d319548-r201351637-Boyana_Church-Sofia_Sofia_Region.html (The Boyana church hosts the paintings of the "Boyana master" - an unknown artisan who painted the saints on the church walls in a style much resembling the Renaissance style but several centuries earlier.), http://www.novinite.com/articles/110882/Bulgaria+to+Celebrate+750+Years+since+Painting+of+Boyana+Church+Frescoes (The Boyana Church frescoes date back to 1259 AD, and are known for their pre-Renaissance features.), http://trakia-tours.com/the-madara-rider-route-40.html (Murals from that period are the most impressing - more than 240 figures, made by an unknown artist and all of them are vivid, individual, with their own style and look, the first realistic paintings in Europe preceding the European Renaissance.), http://en.vvtours.com/bulgaria_places_of_interest_en/bg_boyana_church/index.html (The Boyana Church is situated near Sofia and is one of the cultural symbols of Bulgaria for it represents the significant contribution of the Bulgarian Fine arts to the European cultural tradition. It has preserved valuable frescoes dating from 1259 with high artistic value who are considered to be the predecessors of the European Renaissance.)--Ludogoro (talk) 16:27, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

I haven't commented this time around, Ludogoro, because I did previously when it was first mentioned - see the discussion in the archives. Please stop with the "anti-Bulgarian editor" line, however; I've explained before that that sort of language is unpleasant. Hchc2009 (talk) 16:45, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Referencing tripadvisor won't convince anyone. I realize a number of more specialist works by Bulgarian authors make such claims, but despite requests no English-language ones doing so have yet been produced. Is it just bulgarian art historians who believe this? Johnbod (talk) 16:56, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Find this book - http://biblio.bg/Bulgaria-History-and-Culture/%D0%90%D0%B2%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%80/9789548747196-34270?type=2#. This is encyclopedia of UNESCO and is British. And confirm this theory.--Ludogoro (talk) 17:06, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

It's not in World Cat or Amazon by that name or by it's ISBN - and using Google Translate on that page doesn't give a publisher or even an author - just that it's catagorized as a "photography album" - and it sure looks like a tourist guidebook to me. THis isn't a high quality source. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:22, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

I don't understand what is the problem here to mention on 2 - 3 lines about the Boyana Painter, as about Giotto. The sources are the academic books, proposed by me above. As I said the theory "Giotto - the first" is too old (Vazari, 1550) and is not seriously to be considered reliable in 2014. Obviously the English historiography is too conservative or just you can not find the necessary sources. I don't understand what User:Johnbod want to say with him last comment. What does the nationality of the experts here? If someone didn't know the Boyana Church is located in Bulgaria and it is normal the most studies to be work of Bulgarian experts. I guess that most studies of the Wars of the Roses are English or the sources about Géza I of Hungary are mostly Hungarian. To paraphrase Umberto Eco, I would say that I do not have to wait for an English genius to find something, which in Bulgaria even the kids knows. I agree that there are different theories and I respect the other POVs. You can to proposed the two theories, as about the periodisation: Quote: "English historians often use the Battle of Bosworth Field in 1485 to mark the end of the period. For Spain, dates commonly used are the death of King Ferdinand II in 1516, the death of Queen Isabella I of Castile in 1504, or the conquest of Granada in 1492.". For example: "Other experts believe that the first realistic images are created in 1259 by the painters of Tarnovo Artistic School in Boyana Church" or something similar. Let see the 2 different POVs. It is fair for all.--Magnus Agripa (talk) 16:55, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

The Giotto claim isn't sourced to Vasari - it's sourced to a 2002 work. It's still undue weight to give this sort of claim in this very broad overview article. Ealdgyth - Talk 19:12, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

A Bulgarian source on Bulgarian material is great in general, but when the source is making claims which are claimed to have pan-European significance, it is reasonable to expect corroboration in English, French, Italian, or German scholarship. Surely if Bulgaria was heavily influencing these countries, at least some of their scholars will have noticed the impacts? Furius (talk) 17:13, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

German source, which confirm that - Gerhard Ecker: Bulgarien. Kunstdenkmäler aus vier Jahrtausenden von den Thrakern bis zur Gegenwart. DuMont Buchverlag, Köln, 1984, S. 22-23. Other German source - [6] with film - [7]. As a whole in the Western-European historiography has little evidence for this theory, probably because of the Cold War. There was a book from the 1990s of Japanese art expert - type of overview of European art, but it is difficult to find. Eventually the next week I will search it. --Magnus Agripa (talk) 17:56, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Furius, your last comment provoked me to ask you why in this article are cited only sources from English-speaking countries? In world history that I quoted above (and other editors before me in old disputes) is not given such a weight on the Carolingian Empire and England as here. In this article has a whole novel about Charlemagne, but Bulgarian Empire, Serbia, Kievan Rus and some other countries from Eastern and Central Europe are missing?--Magnus Agripa (talk) 18:24, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

There is discussion of the Bulgarian Empire, Serbia, the Kievan Rus, and other Central European countries. The claim that they are "missing" here is quite simply false. Ealdgyth - Talk 19:12, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Magnus, I'm not convinced by the TV programme as a RS, but I'm interested in the book on the monuments. What sort of background does Gerhard Ecker have, and what does he actually say? Hchc2009 (talk) 07:42, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

The point is not what one or two non-Bulgarian sources of any repectability may say (though precious little has been produced), but the complete absence of this line in the standard large specialist books, several referred to above (here's another: Frederick Hartt's hefty Italian Renaissance Art, whose index has nothing on Bulgaria). Paul Johnson's History of Painting (I think it's called) has half a sentence on Boyana etc, but makes nothing like these large claims. Johnbod (talk) 10:33, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Fair point. Hchc2009 (talk) 10:45, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Mind you, it is worth collecting such references, as there are other articles where they could usefully be used - eg Boyana Church, which has rather weak refs currently, though UNESCO is included. Johnbod (talk) 11:54, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

The article indeed concentrates on the western borderlands of Europe such as France, England, Ireland, etc. Systemic bias is impossible to deny. --Ghirla^-трёп- 14:17, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Johnbod, can you explain me why you always proposed a sources, when the word "Bulgaria" is lacking? This is not very helpful for the discussion. I do not support the extreme reactions of User:Ludogoro here, but I begin to think that you have a more specific opinion about Bulgaria.

In the book of Eckert - [8], one of the few "Western sources", as you say, which write impartially about the Boyana Church during the Cold War time, on page 22-23 is saying that the images of Boyana master in the church "St. Panteleimon and Nicholas" near Sofia, are the first realistic images in European art. The Boyana Painter is the first, who violate the canon and depicts his contemporaries - Sebastocrator Kaloyan and his wife Desislava, the rulers of Sofia during the middle of 13th century, the Bulgarian Emperor Konstantin Tikh and Empress Irina. The frescoes have a unique individuality and psychological insight and are the best preserved images of the Bulgarian Proto-Renaissance. German expert.

About the lacks in English language large specialist books, in one previous dispute - about the Bulgarian Empire (Hchc2009, I see the discussion in the archives!) is proposed article of the historian Petar Konstantinov, obviously published in the scientific journal "Istoriya" of BAS in 2006: "The truth is that specialists in Western Europe and the United States know very small about the Balkans and Eastern Europe. During the Cold War, when the East and the West was competed to conquer space , the battle was not only the field of technology and innovation. After 1950 the history of Eastern Europe was completely hidden from the history books and encyclopedias in Western Europe and the USA. For Bulgarian readers this seems inexplicable. Why? While the communist regimes impose a ideological censorship, to the west the major censorship principle was "Damnatio memorie". This method is used by the pharaohs in ancient Egypt - the new Pharaoh destroyed all images and works of the previous Pharaoh. So by the hate predecessor has not a trace of his reign, as if he never existed. Even before the rise of the Iron Curtain, Eastern Europe and the Balkans were little known by Western Europeans and Americans. Under normal circumstances, today these gaps would be filled. But the tension of the Cold War changed the expectations." Interesting theory, which is giving the answer to your wonderment.--Magnus Agripa (talk) 17:41, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

What does Eckert actually say, Magnus, in the original German? Hchc2009 (talk) 17:54, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Parts of the text about Boyana Church in German language, as is in the original. Pages: 22-23

Gerhard Ecker: Bulgarien. Kunstdenkmäler aus vier Jahrtausenden von den Thrakern bis zur Gegenwart. DuMont Buchverlag, Köln, 1984

Page 22:

Die Bojana-Kirche verdankt ihren Weltruhm vor allem den Wandmalereien von 1259, die eine außerordentliche Leistung der mittelalterlichen Kultur Bulgariens sind. Der regionale Feudalherrscher Sebastokrator Kalojan ließ im 13. Jh. die alte Kapelle vergrößern, indem er eine zweistöckige Kirche anfügen ließ. Geschickt wurden beide Gotteshäuser miteinander verbunden, Zeugnis für den Respekt des Stifters für die vorhergehenden Traditionen. Wie eine Inschrift belegt, wurde das Gotteshaus vollständig ausgemalt und geweiht. Und vor allem diese Wandmalereien sind es, die die außerordentliche kulturgeschichtliche Bedeutung der Kirche von Bojana begründen. Sie entstand im Jahr 1259. Der Meister, der die prachtvollen Fresken gestaltete, ist leider Unbekannt, war aber vermutlich von der Tanover Schule. Seine Fresken, die Zar Ivan Konstantin Tich-Assen und dessen Ehefrau, sowie auch den Auftraggeber, Sebastokrator Kalojan und dessen Frau Desislava abbilden, wie auch viele andere Motive, weisen zum ersten Mal einzelne Stilelemente der Renaissance auf, 200 Jahre bevor dies in Westeuropa der Fall war.

Page 23:

Doch den Meistern von Bojana war es gelungen, die vorherrschenden traditionellen Formen aufzubrechen und ihre Figuren mit einem Maß an Individualität und Gegenwärtigkeit auszustatten, wie es erst sehr viel später in der Renaissance entwickelt wurde. Die biblischen Gestalten und Heiligen, die das Gros der dargestellten Personen bilden, bringen in ihren Gesten und individualisierten Gesichtszügen ein Maß an Bewegung und Bewegtheit jenseits des traditionellen Kanons zum Ausdruck, das auf eine Periode des Umbruchs hindeutet. Die dargestellten Szenen aus dem Leben Jesu und der Heiligen, unter ihnen zahlreiche „Kriegerheilige“, wurden genutzt, um allgemeine menschliche Regungen sowie die damalige Zeit betreffende Gefühle und Gedanken zu formulieren.

Man kann guten Gewissens behaupten, dass der unbekannte Ikonograph, der sein Talent an den Wänden der Kirche von Bojana verewigt hat, ein Vorläufer der Renaissance in Europa war.--Magnus Agripa (talk) 19:06, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Magnus. I'm not seeing in this where it supports the claim about realist art, though, just that the art contains "a degree of individuality and presence". My German's not great, though. What's Ecker's background? Hchc2009 (talk) 19:24, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

On page 23 is saying: "18 Szenen im Narthex stellen das Leben des heiligen Nikolaus dar. Andere zeigen Alltagsszenen der damaligen Zeit. Auf den Wänden finden sich Darstellungen von 240 Menschen in 89 verschiedenen Szenen. Die Wandmalereien besitzen außerordentliche künstlerische Qualitäten, die Technik ist vollkommen, kompliziert und realistisch." Actually my German is like your German. And like my English :) Is there an English-language source to criticize or to refute this theory? For now, I see only sources in which this information is missing--Magnus Agripa (talk) 20:02, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Your German has to be better than mine...! ;) That does note that the painting technique is realistic (I'm assuming that the adjective realistisch equates easily to the German art term Realist), but that's not quite the same as stating that these are the first realist images in Europe/the world. Hchc2009 (talk) 20:20, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

"Realistisch" mean realistic. Not the Realist movement, which began in the mid-19th century as a reaction to Romanticism.--151.237.102.118 (talk) 20:35, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

NB: I'm reasonably content now that Eckhart doesn't say in any of the material quoted here that these "are the first realistic images in European art". Hchc2009 (talk) 17:37, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Ghirla is correct here. Too many details about France, England, Italy and Germany. It must to add more detailed information about Eastern Europe and the Balkans.--Mandramunjak (talk) 20:59, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

It is. I'm agree with you and Ghrila. The article focuses only on the history of the western part of Europe, which is ridiculous, because this is overview of Europe in the Middle Ages. It is just one part of the continent, and honestly the events in Western Europe are not very important for the pan-European history. For example - because the discuss is about medieval Bulgarian Empire - the culture of the Bulgarian Empire in the Golden Age of Simeon the Great is on much higher level than in Western Europe. Old Bulgarian language is literary language of the 9th century, much earlier than any other European languages. Indicative of this is the creation of the Cyrillic script. First Bulgarian Empire had well prepared grammarians, highly developed culture and political hegemony in the region, making the state major center of Slavic culture and one of the three centers of European culture. But this is not mentioned in the article, which is very strange, but there is too much information about Carolingian Empire and Carolingian "Renaissance", England, etc. But before the 10th century in Western Europe has no one state - even the Carolingian Empire is not a state - it is wide etnarchy, which is disbanded after the death of Charlemagne. The statehood to the West began after 10th century - 987 - in France, 1066 - in England. In fact, if we exclude Byzantium, the only earlier state is Bulgaria, which was established in 681 and still exists today with the same name. First Bulgarian Empire is officially recognized by Byzantium on 6th Ecumenical Council in Constantinople in 681. After Bulgaria is Kievan Rus - in the 9th century (or more earlier, according to some historians). The missioners of Preslav and Tarnovo spread the Cyrillic script in whole Eastern Europe. The artists of the Tarnovo school are considered as founders of the Renaissance. Why all of this is missing in the article?--Magnus Agripa (talk) 15:22, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Probably because it is nonsense! If you actually read the article as it is it would correct many of your false perceptions about Western Europe. "Old Bulgarian language is literary language of the 9th century, much earlier than any other European languages" will not convince Anglophone medievalists, who are well aware of Old English literature, as you apparently are not. The real reasons medieval Bulgaria is probably somewhat neglected in English-language sources is that the periods when the state and culture were at their height were rather brief, and its development brutally cut short by the Mongols, leaving next to no legacy that impacted Western Europe. Plus the Greek sources which Anglophone historians are aware of are uniformly hostile to Bulgaria, and usually dismissive of it. Over-hyping by Bulgarian historians doesn't help either. Johnbod (talk) 15:39, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

You obviously did not understand what I mean.

1. The Old English and Old Bulgarian literature have equal starting points - 7th century. But the Old Bulgarian became literary language in the 9th century, because has official literary form, established in 893 on Preslav council by Kliment Ohridski. The English language became literary language in 16th century, at the time of Shakespeare. English has not own officially regulated literary form before. Moreover, Bulgaria creates own script - The Cyrillic, which broke off from the influence of Rome and Constantinople and became a third center of European culture. England has never created own alphabet and use the Latin script of Ancient Romans. Moreover before the rule of Henry VIII England is dependent of Rome.

2. Invasions of Mongols have little significance. Mongols were defeated by Tsar Ivaylo, who is actually the only case in the Middle Ages, when the ordinary man of the common people became emperor, long before the French Revolution (here I want to ask why is not mentioned anything about the Uprising of Ivaylo. The only such case in the Middle Ages was Joan of Arc, but she never become Queen and the uprising is failed). if we exclude the period 1018 - 1185, Bulgarian Empire was a leading force in the Middle Ages.

3. Bulgaria is the oldest state in Europe. Can you tell me what other European country exist from 681 to now?

4. The major reason about ignoring of Bulgaria in your books is the period of Cold War, when Bulgaria was part of Eastern Bloc. Now Bulgaria is member of European Union, and it must be changed, I hope.--Magnus Agripa (talk) 17:10, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

In your sense English has not yet become a "literary language", since there has never been an "official literary form"; we don't go in for that sort of thing, but seem to be doing quite well nonetheless. Johnbod (talk) 20:26, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

"Official language" is anachronistic for the middle ages, but Old English was being used for writing laws from the beginning of the 7th century (e.g. Law of Æthelberht). Old French and Old High German appear alongside Latin in the Oaths of Strasbourg (842).

Alphabets: Firstly, these are not as important as you present them as. Early Cyrillic is basically the Greek alphabet, with a few extra characters for sounds Greek just did not have. It represents cultural interaction not cultural separation. Secondly, even if the invention of Cyrillic indicates a desire to keep apart from Byzantine influence, there is no comparable pressure in western Europe, so no reason for alternative scripts to develop. Thirdly Runes are far older than Cyrillic.

Ivaylo: was defeated in three years. Other commoner revolts lasted longer (Basil the Copper Hand, Peasant revolt in Flanders 1323–28). Other commoners achieved power and stayed there longer (Michael II & Basil I).

European countries that exist from 681 to now: Not significant to the Middle Ages - it says more about the time since (Venice disappeared in 1797 - what does that have to do with its importance in the Middle Ages?). If it were the most important thing, we would need a section on San Marino.

Bulgaria a leading force in Europe: Definitely, from 800 to 1200ish it was a big deal. You've shown lots of maps of Bulgaria at its height being very important. But it's clearly less important here:[9]. And I don't know if it had quite the reach of other states. Bulgaria never sent troops to the Levant, but Britain, France and Germany repeatedly did, despite being a lot further away.

Bulgaria is important, but the case for uniqueness is not as strong as you make it out to be. Furius (talk) 16:00, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Furius,

1. The Old French and Old English have not their own literary norm. Because the French became a literary language in 1635 , when Richelieu established the French Academy. literary language doesn't mean "language with literature". Old Bulgarian literary norm is approved by Preslav school in 893.

2 . The Cyrillic alphabet is not Greek. The Cyrillic is Bulgarian and was created in Preslav. Even the linguists will be not accordance with your statement, because the sound, which is written with the letter "Ъ" exist only in Old Bulgarian. Even today, the Bulgarian language is the only Indo-European language with this sound. The sounds "Щ", "Ш" and "Ч" also does not exist in Greek.

3 . The Cyrillic - Why is so important? The Russian linguist Dmitry Likhachov said that in Europe has three cultural centers - Rome, Constantinople and Preslav (Tarnovo - during the period of the Second Bulgarian Empire). Why? The culture of the Bulgarian Empire in 9 - 10 century is on much higher level than in Western Europe. Every country with a highly developed culture became dominant and created their own script - Ancient Egypt has own script, China has own script, Ancient Greece has own script, Rome has own script, Bulgaria has own script. Western Europe in the Middle Ages is on much lower cultural level than Bulgaria and Byzantium and because of this reason the Western countries perceive the Roman alphabet - Latin, because the Roman culture is dominant. An interesting fact is that the Goths also create their own script. Guess where is created the Gothic alphabet! In Bulgaria - by Bishop Wulfila in Nicopolis ad Istrum, 18 kilometers from the capital of the Second Bulgarian Empire - Tarnovo. Why a Germanic alphabet was established in Bulgaria, but not in Germany, England or Scandinavia, where are living Germanic people? I leave you to find the answer alone.

4 . The Uprising of Ivailo is unique, because one peasant became emperor. I'm never heard about other similar case in Europe in the Middle Ages.

5 . Bulgaria is not involved in the Crusades, because is Orthodox country. No one of the Orthodox countries (Bulgarian Empire, Serbia, Kievan Rus) sent troops to the Levant, because these countries are caesaropapistic. Furthermore, Bulgaria, Serbia and Kievan Rus have not economic and political interests in conquest of the Levant, because Bulgaria and Serbia controlled the Balkans, a transit corridor between Western Europe and Asia. Western Europe is isolated (to the west is Atlantic Ocean) and is needed by these areas. Because of this reason was established the Latin Empire, but it lost its influence after the Battle of Adrianople (1205), in which the Bulgarian Emperor Kaloyan defeated the Crusaders. During the reign of Ivan Asen II, the Bulgarian Empire is leading power and the Latin Empire is her vassal for a while.

Conclusion: The Bulgarian Empire is very important leading state in medieval Europe, but in this article is absolutely ignored. It must be changed.--Magnus Agripa (talk) 21:48, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

About Boyana church. The most important detail in the book of the German expert is that the Boyana artist is inventor of the Renaissance in Europe (Quote of page 23 - "Man kann guten Gewissens behaupten, dass der unbekannte Ikonograph, der sein Talent an den Wänden der Kirche von Bojana verewigt hat, ein Vorläufer der Renaissance in Europa war"). I don't see any problem to mentioned this in the article. I expect of you, Johnbod and HcHc2009, as English language persons, to find a source, preferably from English-language historiography, to criticize or refute this theory. For now I see only empty sources, which are silent about Boyana frescoes.--Magnus Agripa (talk) 17:41, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

You'll need to do your own research to support your own theories, I'm afraid. NB: I don't think that "Vorläufer" means "inventor" in English, Magnus, I think you'll find it means "precursor". Hchc2009 (talk) 17:58, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes, literally mean "precursor" or "predecessor". In this case, the author mean "the first" or "the one who started the Renaissance" or "first creator", "before the others". In Bulgarian language there is the word "предшественик", which is more accurate translation of "Vorläufer", but I think there is no exact equivalent in English, because even Google Translator translates it as a "precursor". But this is only one word out of context. If you read all of the text you will see that the theory is clear:

Quote: "Seine Fresken, die Zar Ivan Konstantin Tich-Assen und dessen Ehefrau, sowie auch den Auftraggeber, Sebastokrator Kalojan und dessen Frau Desislava abbilden, wie auch viele andere Motive, weisen zum ersten Mal einzelne Stilelemente der Renaissance auf, 200 Jahre bevor dies in Westeuropa der Fall war."

To English: "His frescoes , the Czar Constantine Tich - Assen and his wife , as well as the principal, Sebastocrator Kaloyan and his wife Desislava image, as well as many other designs, have for the first time individual style elements of the Renaissance, 200 years before that of Western Europe"

Quote: Doch den Meistern von Bojana war es gelungen, die vorherrschenden traditionellen Formen aufzubrechen und ihre Figuren mit einem Maß an Individualität und Gegenwärtigkeit auszustatten, wie es erst sehr viel später in der Renaissance entwickelt wurde

To English: The masters of Bojana had managed to break the prevailing traditional forms and equip their characters with a degree of individuality and presence, as it was not developed until much later in the Renaissance.

Again, I don't see any problem to mentioned this in the article. I want to see a source, which refute this theory.--Magnus Agripa (talk) 19:05, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Magnus, have (another?) look at WP:UNDUE, which has been mentioned several times above. A short stylistic comment about a piece of artwork by a single author doesn't have to go into an article on the whole of the Middle Ages. I also note that the reference hasn't even been added into the article on the church frescos yet, which has a tag on it to that effect. I don't want to sound irritated, but you do need to be really careful how you try to use sources to support claims - there seem to have been several mistakes in regards to just this one. Hchc2009 (talk) 03:17, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

What mistakes? I quoted the original book. In German! But I not see any source to reject this hypothesis. May be Ludogoro is right about the Anti-Bulgarian moods here. I think, if Boyana Church is located in London, in this article immediately will be added information that the Renaissance began in England. But because this church is located in Bulgaria, I must to find about a billion sources from Alaska to Papua New Guinea to confirm this theory. This is not fair and I accept it as a personal insult. Why you didn't say anything about Carolingian Renaissance?Above I quoted a source, which say that this term is pan-Germanistic. Why in the article are cited only sources from English speaking countries? You want from me to find sources from different countries, but you quote only these of your country. --Magnus Agripa (talk) 15:37, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

You stated above that Ecker says these "are the first realistic images in European art", arguing that this source supported the inclusion of the statement "the first realistic images are created in 1259 by the painters of the Tarnovo Artistic School in Boyana Church" in the article; as noted above, he doesn't appear to say this in any of the quotes you've provided. You then stated that the same source says that "the Boyana artist is [the?] inventor of the Renaissance in Europe"; again, he doesn't appear to say this. I'm assuming good faith, and these were mistakes. Incidentally, I've missed any requirement from other editors for you to provide sources from either Alaska or Papua New Guinea, but perhaps I've missed it in the archives above. Hchc2009 (talk) 15:55, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

It is words out of the context. In the book is written that the images are realistic. The frescoes were created in 1259. Is there earlier similar images in Europe? You can see that the author clearly say that these images have individual style 200 years before the Renaissance in Western Europe, which means that they are the first Renaissance images in Europe, because no evidences about such images before 1259. --Magnus Agripa (talk) 05:15, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Paul Johnson, who has seen the Boyana paintings, puts them in the context of a "classicizing revival" in Byzantium, which is the conventional view, see here. Lingering survivals of Greek illusionistic painting survive from all through the Byzantine period, mostly in manuscript painting on secular subjects. So-called Macedonian art (Byzantine) was an earlier revival, and the very damaged paintings at Castelseprio, probably by a Byzantine refugee, are much earlier than Boyana, probably 10th century. But like Boyana, they seem to have had little impact on later Italian art, so are little-known. As Johnson suggests, there is really no evidence that 13th-century painting in Bulgaria had any impact on Italy. Johnbod (talk) 13:18, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

The Macedonian period has not related to Boyana Church. In 1259 Byzantium does not exist. Paul Johnson does not know the processes in the Balkans and never systematically explored this part of Europe. Besides the English historiography is dominated by Western Europe - centrism and one form of neo-fascism. But because the anti- Bulgarian editors here are British or Americans, they think that only their sources are correct. The German and Bulgarian sources does not matter by you. This is absolute fascism!

It is an independent source - Mavrodinov, "Medieval art". Does any of you are reading this book? In this book is said that frescoes in Boyana Church are the first Renaissance images in Europe. But why this book is so important and must be used here? Because is unbiased. One example - on page 97 is said that the Gothic style was created by Arabs. The author has done serious research in Syria, Lebanon and Morocco. The Gothic architecture entering in Europe from North Africa. Why it is missing in this article? "The experts from Western Europe, mainly the British, French and American, seek to avoid this issue and downplay the influence of the Arabs, as it "significantly less" - is told in the book. Actually the Arab influence is much more, but because the Americans and the British people think the Arabs as terrorists and trolls, they can not confirm this theory. It is not impossible the "senior Western culture" to be created by Muslims - they say. This is just a one typical example of Fascist slope in English-language historiogrphy. Other cliches and nonsense are associated with Eastern Europe and the Balkans. Fascism by ignoring!

Because of the cold war the English-speaking historians know nothing about the Balkans - even you admit it in this old discussion - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Middle_Ages/Archive_7#Davies.27_Europe , where Ealdgyth quote a review about book of Norman Davies - "As might be expected from the leading historian of Poland in Britain, South-eastern and Eastern Europe, including Russia, receive adequate attention, as they have not always done in traditional histories of Europe." and "after this book, it will never again be possible to exclude Eastern Europe from 'European' history". This old discussion also shown your Western-European bias - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Middle_Ages/Archive_7#Section_about_Bulgarian_Empire. What is the problem to add Bulgarian Empire in the article? --Ludogoro (talk) 15:51, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

I've left you a formal warning about the personal attacks against editors on your talk page Ludogoro; you've been advised about this being inappropriate before. Hchc2009 (talk) 16:15, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

I did not attack anyone of you. I just do not like your way to ignore every source, proving that you're not correct. --Ludogoro (talk) 16:49, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for deleting the comment in question Ludogoro. Hchc2009 (talk) 17:04, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

The last sentence was a joke. I apologize if anyone was feeling offended!--Ludogoro (talk) 17:12, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

The sources, using in the article are only English-language. I think the article is dominated by Western-European bias--195.24.37.106 (talk) 17:26, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Ludogoro, I'm agree with Hchc2009 about your personal attacks against the editors here. Your comments are too harsh and even brutal. Such sort of generalizations as "Americans and the British people think the Arabs as terrorists and trolls" are very unpleasant and are absolutely nonsenses. It is just one wrong stereotype. Moreover, in the beginning of the discussion you are indignant that the politics affects history destructive, but now you are who make a political dispute.--Magnus Agripa (talk) 19:34, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

But your note about the Arab origin of Gothic style is correct. I added this in the article. --Magnus Agripa (talk) 07:30, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Johnbod, what does Paul Johnson actually say in this book about the Boyana Church? I see that the name of the book is "The Renaissance" and obviously are mention the art, during the reign of emperors of Macedonian dynasty in Byzantine Empire and the Tarnovo Artistic school. --Magnus Agripa (talk) 19:51, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Doesn't the link above work for you? It takes me to the page, but may not work everywhere. Johnbod (talk) 01:11, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Regarding this edit the source (Theory of literature, from Plato to Postmodernism) appears to be a book on literature, so it not an ideal source to support a statement about architecture, especially for a contentious issue. Nev1 (talk) 17:07, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

It's an old argument - there are (if not recently destroyed...) some very early Syriac churches with pointed arches, then they appear in Muslim buildings, including in Spain and Sicily. See Gothic_architecture#Possible_Islamic_influence. But there is much more to Gothic than pointed arches, and the whole Gothic package of thin walls, large vaults and lots of windows is certainly new and French in origin, with St Denis etc, and there is little dispute now about that. This could be better put at the Gothic article really. This is useful on the history of the argument and seems balanced, unlike some stuff in the same publication on the subject. This is fuller if you have JSTOR. The bit as added, talking of Syrian & Nth african "Gothic", is nonsense. Either "Mavrodinov Medieval art" (also cited above re Boyana) is grossly mis-represented, or he is not a good source. Johnbod (talk) 17:14, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

"Mavrodinov Medieval art" is an academic book used in universities and often cited in other academic works in many countries in Europe and the world. Johnbod, I think that the Geography is not your strength. When one idea is created in Syria, to come to Spain, it certainly has affected North Africa. The author testifies that the Gothic architecture elements has in some objects in Morocco. In fact, Spain, Syria, Morocco as all North Africa and Middle East were parts of Umayyad Caliphate. It is further alleged that the French, British and American art historians tend to minimize the role of the Arabs in the process. The reason, by the book, is that they consider the history of Gothic architecture only at European level.--Magnus Agripa (talk) 21:16, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Mavrodinov died more than 50 years ago. Could you find a more recent source? --Ghirla^-трёп- 06:08, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

One correction - actually on page 96, Mavrodinov said that the pointed arch was created in Persia and is only developed by the Arabs and later - spreading in Western Europe. --Magnus Agripa (talk) 21:48, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

The point is that until northern France gets involved we are only talking about pointed arches, not Gothic architecture. Johnbod (talk) 22:12, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

It is only part of the big problem. See the title that you have placed on the article for the Frankish Empire - "Carolingian Europe". It is the most used cliche by pan-Germanists. Because even in the time of Charlemagne, when the Frankish state stretching from Brittany to Poland, Europe is not Carolingian - at the beginning of the 9th century in Europe there are still three other great powers - Byzantium, Bulgaria and the Arabs in Spain. Moreover, the impact of the Franks was confined to the territories between Poland and Brittany and is very small compared to the Byzantine or Bulgarian influence, by the historian Peter Konstantinov in his "History of Bulgaria". The term "Carolingian Renaissance" is typical pan-Germanistic hyperbole according to Pancheva in her book "Theory of the literature" (ISBN:9545293497), which is cited above in the previous dispute. What Renaissance in the 9th century? According to this book the culture of Frankish state and Western Europe in this period is at a lower level than that in Byzantium and Bulgaria. The Franks not create literature in their own language - they use Latin, while in Byzantium and Bulgaria was making literature of own language (Greek and Bulgarian).--Magnus Agripa (talk) 08:44, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Again - you cannot use one source to invalidate dozens and hundreds of sources. Carolingian Europe and Carolingian Renaissance are the common terms used for this period. This is an overview article - thus it covers things broadly and without going into details. A "theory of literature" book is NOT something that outweighs actual historical works produced by historians. I repeat myself here, but we follow the sources ... and bringing up one or two sources (that aren't historians or that are 50 years old) doesn't override the masses of current historians. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:24, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Ealdgyth, read carefully what is written in the source, before to make such stupid comments. "Carolingian Europe" pan-Germanistic hyperbole and probably may be influenced by the nationalistic doctrines of some countries as England, France, Germany. Furthermore, the term "Carolingian Europe" seems idiotic. By this logic, the 9th century should be called "Simeon's Europe", 16th century - "Süleymaniye's Europe", early 19th century - Napoleonic Europe, etc. This, what you say is not the opinion of the historians, this is only the opinion of English historians and some American experts (If you believe that England and USA are "the world" it is your problem, which no need by comments) because I can not see the "World history" of Bakalov, that I quoted and which has been cited by other editors in the old discussions, to have been used in the article. I do not see quotes from books of Eckert and Duychev in article too. I do not see quotes of sources from previous discussions, which give different POV. I think that your problem is that you have no respect for others' views and is logical some users like Ludogoro to believe that the reasons are political. --Magnus Agripa (talk) 13:31, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Please stop with the "pan-Germanistic" and other insults. No need for them and they do not improve the discussion level here. Comment on the content, not the editors. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:45, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

What insults? I said that the concepts as "Carolingian Renaissance and Europe" are pan-Germanistic, because the Franks controlled only part of Europe and their Empire have a short life. I comment only the content, but the fact that some of the editors ignored some sources, which proposed a different POVs is too strange.--Magnus Agripa (talk) 14:00, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

"What insults?" Well "I think that your problem is that you have no respect for others' views and is logical" would count. Please restrict you comments to the content of the article rather than personalising the issue as you did above. Nev1 (talk) 17:59, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

Mainstream western academia does not accept the idea of "higher" and "lower" levels of culture. So arguments that Bulgaria is/was a higher culture aren't doing you any good. Also, many of your ideas about what makes one culture higher than another make absolutely no sense to us (e.g. the importance you give to the culture having a unique language). Furius (talk) 18:39, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

What is this "Western" academia? Is there are eastern, northern or southern academia? This claim make your comment to non sense. The fact that in this article are used only English-language sources shows that you are like an ancient Greek, who believes that all non-English are barbarians. Read carefully what I wrote above. I do not mean a unique language, I talk about alphabet and cultural influence. Furthermore your statement is also nonsense - if in "Western academia" has no "levels" of culture how to explain that the French people speak a language which is derived from Latin, but not the Gaelic language? Interesting.--Magnus Agripa (talk) 09:06, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

By me the correct name of this article is "Middle Ages in Western Europe".--Ludogoro (talk) 16:24, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Eastern Europe has coverage. Please stop with the bias claims - especially claims that the other editors are biased. It doesn't help discussions at all. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:38, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

I think the main problem is that some of the editors here do not respect other people's points of view, which is harmful for the article. I'm from Slovakia and honestly I do not understand what is this division of "Western" sources from one side and "Bulgarian and German sources" from the other. It is absurd and obviously these users are at odds with the Geography or they simply believe that they are living in 1989, not 2014. Bulgaria and Germany are parts of what you call "Western society". De Facto, Bulgaria and Germany are two of the countries - founders of Western civilization. Everybody, who knows about Friedrich Nietzsche, Martin Luther, Goethe, Schiller or Kliment Ohridski, Patriarch Evtimiy, Ivan Vazov, Pancho Vladiguerov can to confirm it. My country is directly related to these countries. Between 804-932 Southern and Eastern Slovakia were part of the First Bulgarian Empire, whose northern border is crossed the Tatra Mountains. At the time of the Habsburgs Slovakia became part of the Holy Roman Empire. The Slovak and Czech languages and all Slavic languages ​​are influenced by the Old Bulgarian language, which in the period 9-15 century is Lingua Franca for over half of Europe.

The Cold war separation "East- West" is artificial and void today. Only 100 years ago, Austria and Slovakia were part of one country - Austria- Hungary. After 1945 Czechoslovakia became part of the Eastern bloc and some people in the west of the Berlin Wall , it became "another world." In the old discussion one editor said that before 1989, "the west" knew nothing about Prague. Today, Germany is united and together with Slovakia and Bulgaria are EU members, i.e. even the political division does not exist today. I see a huge number of sources that support the expansion of the article in previous discussions, but here the editors ignore them because they are of non-English or non-American. This is ridiculous. Sorry, but Bulgaria and Germany have the most unbiased historiographies in the world because these countries have an active debate about the past. English historiography is more biased and more under the influence of the propaganda of the Cold War. The fact that the history of Davies is the first to talking impartially about Eastern Europe, according to the reviews, shows that in England and the United States the debate on this topic is still lacking. I urge the editors to have more respect for other people's points of view and to accept the criticism. I am an intelligent man from East European country and I don't like someone to looking me like a monkey, especially when you know nothing about me. --Mandramunjak (talk) 09:38, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

And, as has been pointed out above, the balance in this article reflects Davies (one of the sources used) as far as Bulgaria is concerned. Do Slovak sources say the Renaissance originated in Bulgaria, by the way? Johnbod (talk) 10:31, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

This is an excerpt from a documentary film about Bulgaria with English subtitles - [10]. Many sources, Slovak and non-Slovak says that the Renaissance began in Bulgaria. The first Renaissance images are created in the Boyana Church, which is located in the southern part of Sofia at the foot of Vitosha Mountain. Boyana Master is the first artist who painted his contemporaries. I visited Sofia three times and once I had the good fortune to see this unique church. Boyana church is a UNESCO World Heritage significance. The Bulgarian culture is very ancient and influential as a whole. Still Tarnovo is known as the "Third Rome". Patriarch Callistus I of Constantinople said that the world has two imperial centers - Constantinople and Tarnovo. The fact that in medieval Europe has only three lingua franca languages ​​- Greek, Latin and Bulgarian is sufficient proof of this.--Mandramunjak (talk) 20:53, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm agree with you, Mandramunjak. One historiography is unbiased only when looking critically at its own history. To my delight, in the Bulgarian historiography has a debate and comment on everything freely. This book became very popular in many countries and is translated to many languages is typical example [11]. Germans also discuss freely about fascist past of their country. But some historiographies like English and American are still too closed to similar interpretations. Actually the English and American historiography are not the only one. The Spanish people still do not like to talk about Francisco Franco. I think this is the wrong way . The problem in English-language sources is that they are biased towards Eastern Europe and conceal or ignore many facts. As the emergence of the Renaissance was not the original idea of the Boyana master. This is the end result of a long process that started back in the Golden age of Simeon the Great. But these facts are ignored in the English historiography and their theory is as follows: The Barbarians destroyed the Roman Empire in 476 (actually they only destroyed the western empire, Byzantium was destroyed in 1453) and occurred the dark Middle Ages. Then a miracle happened and ancient ideas are raised and was born the Renaissance. Bulgarian Empire is the missing link in the explanation of the transition from the Middle Ages to the Renaissance (the film of Ludogoro at the beginning of the dispute is useful in this case, because it shows that Bulgaria has preserved its ancient culture). But because all of this is ignored the only explanation is the miracle.--Magnus Agripa (talk) 10:41, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Friedrich Nietzsche, Martin Luther, Goethe, Schiller, Ivan Vazov, Pancho Vladiguerov...? I think we may be drifting a bit off topic in terms of the Middle Ages, even elastically defined! ;) Hchc2009 (talk) 11:44, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Not to mention that this article doesn't even begin to reflect some "But these facts are ignored in the English historiography and their theory is as follows: The Barbarians destroyed the Roman Empire in 476 (actually they only destroyed the western empire, Byzantium was destroyed in 1453) and occurred the dark Middle Ages. Then a miracle happened and ancient ideas are raised and was born the Renaissance." - nothing in this article says anything of the kind - we devote time to the survival of the Byzantine Empire - we discuss the various things that led to the Renaissance and no where is it stated or implied that the Middle Ages were a "dark ages". That sort of idea hasn't been prevelant in any history I've read that was written after 1900 ... whatever the origin of the writer. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:07, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

The role of Byzantine Empire is mentoined, but the role of Bulgarian Empire is ignoring. I don't see something about the Golden Age, Pleslav and Tarnovo Artistic Schools. The Renaissance occurs in the Balkans and is widespread in Italy and Western Europe later. It is also not mentioned in the article. --Magnus Agripa (talk) 12:35, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

I think that these are very good materials, which are confirm with academic sources - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Middle_Ages/Archive_7#First_Bulgarian_Empire_2. I add a short information about Preslav and Tarnovo style. I see no seriously criticism of the content of these materials.--Ludogoro (talk) 14:44, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

There has been plenty of criticism of these additions - they are way undue weight for the level of detail of an overview article. They present extraordinary claims (such as the Renaissance beginning in Bulgaria) that are not supported by most sources. Other criticisms are listed on this page and in the talk page archives. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:51, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm not agree. The material about Carolingians is also undue weight, but is there. The claim about the Renaissance is extraordinary only by you. Above is quoted even Slovak source, which confirm this - [12]. Read some of the books, quoted here to understand why the Renaissance began in Bulgaria. In Western Europe the Roman Empire is destroyed in 476, Byzantine Empire is too conservative christian Empire. Only Bulgaria is saved and developed own ancient culture in Middle Ages. Do you know what is Golden Age? Do you know who is Simeon the Great? Do you know why the Constantinople Patrirach Calistus say that the world has two imperial centres - Constantinople and Tarnovo? Do you know why Tervel is called by his contemporaries "The Saviour of Europe"? Do you know why the most Slavic countries are using the Bulgarian alphabet, popular as Cyrillic? Do you know why exactly near Sofia are created the first Renaissance images? Do you know when was created Bulgaria - 632 or 681? Read, Ealdgyth, Read! And learn to be critical about sources. I'm sure that before this discussion, you even don't know where the Boyana church is located.--Ludogoro (talk) 16:22, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Cut it out with the personal comments on other editors. Please do not tell me what I need to do nor speculate on whether or not I know something or speculate on what abilities I have. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:24, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

It's just advice. Because when you comment something that you don't know, it seems crazy. It's not bad to ask, if you don't know. --Ludogoro (talk) 16:34, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

It's discourteous, and you've been warned about the personal comments issue before. Hchc2009 (talk) 16:46, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Kievan Rus

Kievan Rus is the largest state in medieval Europe. But in this article has only two lines. The article is too many concentrated on the western part of Europe and Carolingian state. More information about Kievan Rus is needed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mandramunjak (talk • contribs) 21:08, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

It is map of the area of Kievan Rus in 1054:--Mandramunjak (talk) 21:15, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Principalities of Kievan Rus', 1054-1132

At that particular period it was probably culturally superior to much of Western Europe. Its culture was a rich mix of native Slavic, steppe Turkic, Byzantine, Romanesque, Islamic, and Viking influences. Birch bark manuscripts prove that most of Novgorod's population was literate, and Anna of Kiev knew how to sign her name (unlike her husband Henry I of France). All this does not suit the prevailing ex occidente lux ideology, of course. --Ghirla^-трёп- 11:48, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Disruption

The editing here is getting disruptive. The talk page discussion, while it hasn't been all that productive, isn't too disruptive, but the repeated edits to the article itself against consensus on the talk page are just time consuming to the editors who have to revert them. A few of these are OK but it's now to the point where it must be clear to Ludogoro et al. that the edits are against consensus. I'm tempted to request protection for a month; does anyone agree this would be a good idea? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 17:06, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm typically cautious about protection, but I think that in this instance it would allow editors to get on with more productive tasks. Hchc2009 (talk) 17:12, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

I've resisted asking for protection because we do get useful edits (corrections, additions) from IP and other editors. I'd rather see something done to the editors causing the disruption than make it so others have to pay for someone else's problems. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:14, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

On a side note, I still show this page (and the article) as watched, but no longer show the edits adding the large block of text (and it being reverted) in my watchlist. I see them if I check the history of the page or my contributions, but why are those specific edits not showing on my watchlist? (I can see the edits for this section being started, but not the others). Any ideas? Ealdgyth - Talk 17:22, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Check your settings in Preferences -> Watchlist -> Advanced options; if those got changed somehow it might affect what you see. Nikkimaria (talk) 17:29, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

I think move protection would be an obvious first step given the most recent problem - there's no reason this article should be moved without a formal move discussion. Nikkimaria (talk) 17:29, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Agreed.....and done. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:48, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks; let's hope that's all that's needed. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 13:06, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Slavic Europe and the conversions

In the article is written: Missionary efforts by both eastern and western clergy resulted in the conversion of the Moravians, Bulgars, Bohemians, Poles, Magyars, and Slavic inhabitants of the Kievan Rus'. These conversions contributed to the founding of political states in the lands of those peoples—the states of Moravia, Bulgaria, Bohemia, Poland, Hungary, and the Kievan Rus'.. It is true for the most Slavic countries, but not for Bulgaria. Even the next sentence reject this claim: Bulgaria, which was founded around 680, at its height reached from Budapest to the Black Sea and from the Dnieper River in modern Ukraine to the Adriatic Sea.. The Christianization in Bulgaria hasn't the same significance as in Poland, Bohemia etc. Actually Bulgaria was estabilished in 632 by Kubrat. 680 is the year, when Asparukh defeated the army of Eastern Roman Empire in Ongal. In 681 - The Byzantine emperor Constantine IV proclaimed Asparukh as emperor and recognizes the Bulgarian Empire. This is starting point of First Bulgarian Empire. Need to add more information about Bulgarian Empire. The article mentioned the first medieval empire - Byzantine Empire (the successor of the Roman Empire). The third empire of Charlemagne recognized as emperor in 800, is also mentoined. But the second Empire - Bulgarian Empire is omitted. The first and third empires are mentioned, but the second is missing. Very strange.--Rivaldeiro (talk) 16:02, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Note that this user has only three edits. Rivaldeiro, are you connected in any way to any of the other editors who have been addressing Bulgarian topics on this talk page? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 16:10, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

What is the problem with my edits? What Bulgarian topics? I signed in the Portuguese Wikipedia today. I just say the statement that you have written is wrong. Look at the article First Bulgarian Empire. --Rivaldeiro (talk) 16:19, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Pardon my suspicions. There have been many conversations on this page about the way the Bulgarian Empire is represented in the article, and I am inclined to suspect that a new editor who addresses this topic in their very first edits is actually one of the prior editors, editing under a new name. I hope that's not the case. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 17:20, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Mike Christie, it is absurd and seems paranoid. Just in this moment - forget about all discussions and tell me how many empires exist in medieval Europe? The answer is 3 - Byzantine Empire, Holy Roman Empire and Bulgarian Empire. The Empire of Germans is mentoined in the article (even is very, very, very mentoined, especially the Frankish Empire), Byzantine - also is written in details, but Bulgarian Empire - The Second Empire in Europe (look at Tervel, who is recognized as Caesar in 705), where was created the Cyrillic script, one of the most powerful country in Middle Ages is presented with 2 - 3 sentences. Every historian and every person, who is looking even one historical book will not agree with the way how Bulgarian Empire is represented here. Their reactions are understandable, but your reaction is too strange. Many foreign sources are given in this Talk page. Why you not use some of these sources in the article. Why use only English sources. It is what is strange here.--Mandramunjak (talk) 07:52, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

There has been some suspicious behaviour on this page, and I was considering an SPI. Nev1 (talk) 17:22, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

I've created a list of pro-Bulgarian editors of this page, in case someone does start an SPI. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 17:35, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Thank you Mike, that's very useful. I'll get started on the SPI. Nev1 (talk) 17:49, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

The case is here. I may have missed some details as I have not followed this discussion closely, in which case feel free to add it. Nev1 (talk) 18:36, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Can you explain me what this means? It is ridiculous. I found the article after the note of User:Ludogoro as you can see here [13]. I just wanted to edit articles related to the Second Bulgarian empire, as I started before this note. My opinion is that some of editors are correct that the Bulgarian Empire is ignoring here (I'm propose the reasons above) and because of that I became a member of this discussion. I'm not related to these editors.--Magnus Agripa (talk) 19:01, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

If I understand correctly, your argument is that anyone, who disagrees with this balance in the article is suspect, right? Provoked by the list of Mike Christie, I made ​​a list of anti-Bulgarian editors here - User:Magnus Agripa/sandbox. If you look at the history of the page you will see that these editors delete any editing related to Bulgaria in the article. Note that they use only English sources and not recognized the foreigner sources, which proposed a different theories and trying to destroy the other editors. Look at how many editors are escaped from the article. Maybe Ludogoro is right - here is existing some sort of Anti-Bulgarian prejudices. --Magnus Agripa (talk) 19:17, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

I have NOT deleted "any editing related to Bulgaria in the article". I've put in stuff about Bulgaria. My last Bulgarian related edit to this article was restoring mentions of Bulgaria. Calling other editors "anti-Bulgarian" is a personal attack against those editors and you were just warned about that. Kindly remove the personal attack. Nor am I trying to "destroy the other editors". Ealdgyth - Talk 19:24, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

You're free to hate whoever you want. It is your problem. But tell me - why only me? Tell the same things to Mike Christie, who began with the "Pro-Bulgarian list". This is a double standard. Actually I want to delete my Wikipedia profil. Is this possible? I sign up with the intention to expand and create some articles related to the Tarnovo school, but obviously this will not happen. I'm never imagine that in Wikipedia is so full with shit. Block me, delete me, I don't care. I just want it to be over.--Magnus Agripa (talk) 19:47, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Can we please stop with assuming that other editors are motivated by hate. I've explained and explained why some of the proposed edits do not belong in this article - it's a summary article. See WP:Summary Style. This does not mean they might not belong elsewhere in other articles. Following wikipedia guidelines and policies does not make another editor biased or a hater. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:00, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Mike_Christie, can you say me which of my comments are pro-Bulgarian? Look at my edits carefully before to make a wrong conclusions and let me in any lists. I'm not related to any other editor, even I don't know who are you. These are trumped up charges to me. Please comment on the content, not the editors. Please, read Wikipedia:No personal attacks and stop with this Stalinist methods! It is too unpleasantly and offensive to me.--Mandramunjak (talk) 22:48, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Now about the content. Rivaldeiro, you say very important things. Dear Ealdgyth, Johnbod, Mike Christie and other opponents, why the first -Byzantine Empire and the third - Carolingian Empire are extensively presented in the article, while the second - Bulgarian Empire has only 2 - 3 sentences in the article. It is realy very strange. Let's see your opinions about that! --Mandramunjak (talk) 23:02, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Sockpuppetry

The checkuser results show two sets of sockpuppets that may be connected; one set is connected to Sumatro. There are also two IPs, both of which resolve to Bulgarian addresses -- one is in Sofia and the other I'm less sure about. I think this plus the behavioural clues makes it clear that Sumatro has wasted dozens of hours of the time of some productive editors -- and that's just on this page. Given that he has been blocked in the past for sockpupppetry, I think he should either be banned or receive a long block, but I'm not particularly familiar with the processes that lead to those outcomes. Do others agree, and can someone with more experience of those processes comment? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:13, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Lovely. Just freaking lovely. I'm obviously in favor of whatever fits with policy and gets this morass cleared up so we don't have to deal with it again. Maybe I'll get the energy to edit again once this is past. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:32, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

What Bulgarian adresses and why my User name is stiil there? My IP is not Bulgarian and I don't know none of the editors in Wikipedia as whole, include you and the editors in the list. Mike Christie, you continue with the trumped up charges to me. Interesting - How did you find that the address is in Sofia? I hope these are your fantasies, because the other option is dangerous. To investigate a IP address and it's location is a crime under the laws of the European Union and is punishable by 2-5 years in prison. I am from a country member of the EU. Bulgaria is also a member of the EU. I understand that the discussion here is very keen, and I believe that this is an attempt to strike against opponents - dishonest, unpleasant, but without criminal elements. --Mandramunjak (talk) 05:31, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Oh, it's really unpleasant and can be a violation of human rights and personal freedom. Note that the users, which became investigations are mostly Americans, according to their templates in their User pages. Of course, this is not an accusation, but there are some disturbing facts as you can see here on website of DW -[14], [15] and [16] --Sumatro (talk) 06:19, 2 June 2014 (UTC)