Talk:Carol Kaye

possible copyvio

The bio seems like it was largely lifted from her own personal website. SchnappM 13:04, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Carol Kaye's occupation

Carol Kaye has never referred to herself as a bass guitarist and refers to the instrument as an electric bass. I think wikipedia should respect that in an article on this prominent bassist. Also, start a category - "electric bassists" and get rid of "category - bass guitarists". Ozbass 13:30, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

However she refers to it, the instrument she plays is an electric bass guitar, and since she began as a guitarist and has always played the bass guitar with a pick, the connection to the guitar is especially strong in her case. The phrase "electric bass" is unnecessarily ambiguous: there do exist electric double basses, and Kaye doesn't play any of these. TheScotch 05:31, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

This is from the Grove Dictionary of Music (the most reputable general musical resource in the English-speaking world), "online" version, under the entry "Electric Bass Guitar":

"An Electric guitar [my emphasis], usually with four heavy strings tuned E'–A'–D–G. The electric bass guitar was invented by Leo Fender and was first marketed as the Fender Precision Bass in 1951 (see Fender). The instrument was introduced to meet the needs of musicians playing the bass part in small dance bands in the USA: they wanted not only a more easily portable instrument than the double bass, but one that could match the volume of the increasingly popular solid-bodied electric guitar, and could be played with greater precision than their large, fretless, acoustic instruments. Fender's electric bass guitar answered all these requirements. It was based on his already successful Broadcaster (later named Telecaster) six-string electric guitar [my emphasis], with a similar solid body of ash and neck of maple. The four strings were tuned to the same notes as the double bass (an octave below the bottom four of the six-string electric guitar), and a single pickup fed controls for volume and tone; the fretted fingerboard offered players the precision they wanted." TheScotch (talk) 06:27, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Here is how Grove defines the term bass:

"Bass (iv).

A contraction of Double bass or Electric bass guitar." TheScotch (talk) 11:13, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Controversial claims

I deleted some of the controversial claims at the end. Controversial claims should have a prominent, reputable source (see Wikipedia:Cite your sources). David.Monniaux 00:43, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

-I don't think we should keep the claim that she didn't play on Good Vibrations either. Carol is the only person that Brian mentions as a bassist for the song in this interview: http://www.uncut.co.uk/features/the-making-of-the-beach-boys-good-vibrations-34867 Of course, I can't access that booklet easily. But I can easily access this interview, which is with the actual Brian Wilson.

Picture

Anyone got a pic of Carol (copyright free) ?--Light current 02:13, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

This is not very good

If she has recorded with hundreds of artists and had a bunch of hits, please name ANY. There is nothing on this page that tells me what work she has recorded. This means she's just a name, on a page, that foolishy has wasted some valuable space in my memory.

Please do not delete posts from talk pages This is considered vandalism!

So you wanna know what she recorded? OK

• Little green apples (OC Smith)
• I dont need no doctor (Ray Charles)
• Peace of mind (nancy Wilson)
• Out of this world (Nancy Wilson)
• Happy Together (Mel Torme)
• Boots (Nancy Sinatra)
• Back in my arms (Supremes) prob J.Jamerson
• Out of my head (The Lettermen)
• Good Vibrations (Beach Boys)
• If I could build my whole world (Marvin Gye + Tammi Terrell)
• Wichita Lineman (Glen Campbell)
• I chose to sing the blues (Ray Charles)
• You made me so very happy (Brenda Holloway)
• Dont change on me (Ray Charles)
• Understanding (Ray Charles)
• I was made to love her (Beach boys) - Ron brown, touring bass player according to Bruce Johnston
• Fell so bad (Ray Charles)
• Willie (Mel torme)
• Feeling Alright (Joe Cocker)
• When I die (THe Motherlode)
• Come together (Count Basie- overdubbed)
• Hicky Burr (Bill Cosby)
• Games people play (Mel Torme).....

Enough??

--Light current 02:30, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

THere seems to be some contention about which of these tunes Carol actually played on. I think the following link spaeks for itself.[1]--Light current 02:28, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

I can tell you right now, Carol Kaye did not record Stevie Wonder's "I was Made to Love Her". I have removed two false listed recordings, the others are fine, but dont rip songs 'she' said she recorded, do the research before cutting and pasting names off her website. Visit Motown sources, or whatever. James Jamerson shall no longer be denied what he deserves; Respect.

This info is published in Carols book Electric Bass Lines No4 (14 of Carols Hit record basslines) Publ.by Gwyn Publishing Company 1971. As such, it is referenced and can be included whether 'true' or not. Refer to WP policy on verifiability v 'truth'. If you disgaree with them referencing Carols playing (Ie youre saying the published info is untrue) then write to Gwyn Publishing.

Also please sign your posts by typing 4 tildes (~~~~)--Light current 06:54, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

The book you say was written by Carol, therefore you can't use that as a source; seeing that she could of said anything in her own book. The only person that claims she recorded that is her and you. Im thinking of putting that I played bass on that record. Believe me, why would I lie?

Any reputable published source is valid on WP. Please do not be insulting/offensive by calling me a fool/ This is trolling--Light current 23:49, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

read 'Motown: The View from the Bottom' by Jack Ashford. He recorded the song with the Funk Brothers for Motow. I will never let Carol Kaye take credit for things that she did not do. I don't care about what she wrote or aid, and I don't care what you write or say. If you put false info back on this page I will remove it indefinitly.

Then you will be ,banned, blocked for vandalism!--Light current 23:35, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

I mean really, can you tell me what to do? I think not. I will protect the people that you don't care about. You just spit up whatever you want with the shield of wiki. Give me a break, you dont scare me with your pathetic threats. You need to stop infecting pages with mis-info, and another thing....oh wait that was it.

All users must abide by the rules of the Wiki! You have yet to learn that--Light current 23:52, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Did you know that your info you keep placing on this page, is totally going against what is in another wiki page, read (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Jamerson); so what about this, is wiki going to total hell or what...please tell me.

Make your comments about that page there (if you can). Goodbye!--Light current 23:58, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

You need a new hobby! Also you have no power, leave me alone, as I will continue to protect the truth.

The Wiki community has the power. Thats all that needed.--Light current 00:06, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

you are still talking? You have no power, that is all I said. I am doing nothing but protecting the truth. I am everyone, I am everywhere. Try what you want, do what you can, but dont fu*king talk to me like your better than me. and good luck banning me(for what again, removing false statments?). I dont even care, since IM AT THE LIBRARY.

The wiki is superior to all! Goodbye! Dont come back! (until you learn to be civil)--Light current 00:20, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Get over it, you don't talk for wiki; you are not special. Sorry, mother lied to you.

The Wiki community will punish you--Light current 00:29, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

I will not let you ruin the truth under a false veil of Wiki. I am done talking, but my actions will never stop. 12.217.35.198 00:33, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

I have removed her credit playing guitar on Jan & Dean's "Surf City" and "The Little Old Lady From Pasadena" as her name does not appear on the AFM sheets for those tracking sessions. Andrew G. Doe (talk) 17:54, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

I've been told by an entirely reputable source, who has access to the original multitrack session tapes that, although CK undoubtedly did play on some "Good Vibrations" sessions (there is AFM contract evidence) she did not play on any of the sessions that were used for the final, released, single version.Andrew G. Doe (talk) 06:44, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

That's original research, and should not be included in the article. IHeardFromBob (I Heard From You) —Preceding undated comment added 15:05, 16 September 2011 (UTC).

Said research has been published in the booklet accompanying the 5CD release of The Smile Sessions. Thus it is now a primary source. Andrew G. Doe (talk) 09:19, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Cite the booklet, then. The link now is to a message board, not a reliable source IHeardFromBob (I Heard From You) 17:18, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Sprotection

I don't know who's right or wrong, but I see some anon IPs deleting material and vowing never to give up, so I'm assuming it's vandalism and I've semi-protected the page. To the anon: if this is a genuine content dispute, please discuss your objections on talk, bringing forth any sources you have to show that you're right, and also please drop the "I will never let this go" attitude, because a big part of editing Wikipedia lies in accepting you can't get your own way all the time. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 01:51, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the talk page is still in the vandalised state. Is this sprotected also?--Light current 01:56, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

No it isnt and Ive just corrected the vandalised post--Light current 01:58, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

I have read this talk page and its kinda funny

I am a bass player, and I love both Kaye and Jamerson. Its funny because this is always a hot topic about cetain Motown basslines. I just want to give my two cents in, hoping to help fix this silly feud. Carol Kaye worked for Motown in LA for a good amount of time starting around 1967 or so. She was used often with thier west-coast artist and had some top-100 hits (which I can't think of at the moment). She also did demos for every almost every artist at Motown. She did record many hit songs for Motown, but most of them were simply demos and the true release was recorded with The Funk Brothers.

The performance credit that Carol has pursued with the greatest tenacity over the years is the bass part on Stevie Wonder's "I Was Made to Love Her". Hank Cosby who co-wrote, produced it, and who, in his own words, "was there every step of the way from the writing of the song to the day the 45's were shipped", vehemently denied any participation by Carol Kaye on this recording. Cosby added, "Fifty percent of the song was James Jamerson's bass line. No one played like that but Jamerson." Cosby also signed an affidavit similar to Brian Holland's attesting to Jamerson's performance.

I mean the man signed a legal affidavit. What proof do you need? :P I hope you noobs can stop your fight and get on with life.

For references for this please view the references of the James Jamerson wiki page. (I got most of the info from "Standing in the Shadows of Motown"

Axios101 02:26, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Also, Kaye really did record "I was made to love her". She covered it with The Beach Boys in the early 70's. 12.217.35.198 02:30, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

THanks for the info. I have seen the affadavit and am modifying the page to take a/c of it.--Light current 02:34, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

The Beach Boys recorded "IWMTLH" in late 1967. Kaye claims she and Hal Blaine were on the session at Western. The AFM contract reveals it was recorded at Wally Heider's studio and that neither of them were present. Andrew G. Doe (talk) 13:32, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Brian Holland's Affidavit

HDH didn't write I was made to love her, so his affidavit speaks for only a few songs. Now the affidavit from Mr. Cosby (the songwriter/producer) is the important one. Axios101 02:35, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

I now hope we can all just get along! :P Axios101 02:36, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Sockpuppetry

Just to confirm that Axios is 12.217.39.243 and the others. I'll be reverting his edit. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 02:40, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

THanks Slim!--Light current 03:02, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Recordings - Possible addition to the section

Being just a casual visitor here, I would like to suggest that you might want to point out Kaye's involvement in the recording of the first two Frank Zappa and the Mothers Of Invention albums, for which you can find one of many online references (with cute picture!) here: http://www.united-mutations.com/k/carol_kaye.htm . It might not be a bad idea to incorporate this into the article, as it will give a more rounded picture of her musical contributions. Hi There 16:42, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

You could do that! Anyonoe can edit, remember!--Light current 20:18, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

wikidiscussions

This is my first experience of a serious online heated debate. Interesting (to see to what extend some people will go to - hitting their keyboards with sledgehammers to get their point across?) but at the same time disappointing. I thought all you wikipedians were one big happy family altruistically giving up your free time for the common good. All I wanted to know was something about the Wrecking Crew, but have stumbled across a great divide. Just a last minute thought - didn't Malcolm Cecil play bass on most of Stevie Wonder's stuff? 83.180.128.192 23:30, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

---

Anyway I've cleaned it up, adding much detail and balance.

Wrecking crew

Re: "Popular music historians often cite her as a member of the so-called Wrecking Crew, but this term wasn't coined by "Drummer Man" Hal Blaine until the early 1990s.":

Are we sure about this? I thought I remembered reading about the Wrecking Crew long before the 90's. TheScotch 06:40, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

"Wrecking crew" member Carol Kaye says on her website that nobody had ever heard the term wrecking crew applied to them until Blaine's book came out in 1990. For what it's worth, the phrase could still easily ring a "1960s bell" for you cuz it was also the name of a 1969 Dean Martin movie. Gwen Gale 07:25, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Don't think that's it. I've never seen a Dean Martin movie. You realize, I'm assuming, that Blaine maintains the members of the group were commonly called "the wrecking crew" back in the sixties. If Blaine made up the term himself--and in 1990--, then he's lying, isn't he? I haven't checked Kaye's website yet, but it sounds to me on the basis of the information you've supplied (amazingly promptly, by the way) that it's her word against his. TheScotch 09:35, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I've never seen any evidence of that term being used before Blaine's book was published. Gwen Gale 09:47, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Only a thought, one doesn't need to have ever seen that movie to have heard its title and I'm sure it was mass marketed at the time. Gwen Gale 10:20, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

One doesn't, but unless the movie was about a group of studio musicians, this is all really beside the point. (No doubt wrecking crew is a common enough phrase.) Let's leave my personal recollection and yours out of this for now: Is it simply a matter of Blaine's word against Kaye's? If so, then this article would seem to have no business taking a side. If not, then we ought to have something substantive to support the article's assertion. TheScotch 10:45, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I was only trying be helpful. Sorry if my post was misunderstood. This is not "he said, she said," this is WP:V. Please provide verifiable citations which provide published assertions that a) the term wrecking crew was used to describe that group of 1960s era studio musicians before Blaine wrote his book and b) that Blaine himself asserts that the term was used to describe them during the 1960s. Once cited, either or both assertions can then be put into the article, along with Kaye's assertion that the term was dreamed up by Blaine. Cheers. Gwen Gale 11:03, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

You've got the misunderstanding backward, but since you are the one maintaining it "is not 'he said, she said' ", then clearly the onus is on you to "provide verifiable citations". Since Kaye's remarks at her website affirm rather than dispute that "Blaine himself asserts that the term was used to describe them during the 1960s", this much is not a matter of contention. You have been "helpful" to the extent that your remarks suggest that whoever wrote the questionable phrase probably took his information directly from Kaye's website, and on this basis, I think we can fairly remove the phrase now with impunity. TheScotch 05:14, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Your assertions will last much longer in the article if you can support them with citations. You might want to have a look at WP:V and WP:OR. All the best. Gwen Gale 09:37, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

citations

I am requesting citations per our policy on verifiability. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 01:14, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

That's ok. Please try again, this time without blanking content and adding empty line breaks, thanks. Also, please either use specific cite requests or the blanket tag at the top of the article, not both. Gwen Gale 02:23, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Please deal with the issue at hand and address both the lack of sources and the lack of citations. Also, do-not continue to add dubious unsourced material into the article. Please review WP:BLP, WP:V and WP:RS for the policies and guidelines requiring sources. Also, see WP:CITE for the standard formatting systems. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 19:39, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Disputed songs

In addition to Stevie Wonder's "I Was Made To Love Her" there are several other tracks listed on Carol Kaye's page that are more commonly credited to James Jamerson, among those are "Ain't Nothing Like the Real Thing" (Marvin Gaye & Tammi Terrell), "Bernadette" & "I Can't Help Myself (Sugar Pie, Honey Bunch)" (The Four Tops), and "Love Child" & *"Reflections" (The Supremes). This subject has been debated very heavily with the evidence weighing towards Jamerson, well documented at http://www.bassland.net/jamerson.html

Even most of the wiki pages for the songs in question credit the Funk Brothers (of which Jamerson was a member for those who do now know)as musicians.

I believe that the songs in question should be removed from Carol Kaye's wikipedia page.

Cyclopseslayer 09:27, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Please mark them as disputed if need be, thanks. Gwen Gale 02:06, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Gwen, I hope you have read the information on bassland.net regarding these. There is extensive research there. http://www.bassland.net/bh1.htm this is Brian Holland (one of the co-writers and producers of the following songs)'s signed affidavit verifying James Jamerson as the bassist on "Bernadette", "Can't Help Myself", "Reflections"; http://www.bassland.net/hc1.htm this is Henry Cosby (co-writer, producer, arranger, etc. of "I Was Made to Love Her)'s signed affidavit verifying Jamerson as the bassist on the version "I Was Made to Love Her" in question; as I understand it, these are reliable sources as defined by Wikipedia. These are just some of the pieces of evidence on the bassland.net page. As I mentioned, these being listed on Carol Kaye's page is even in conflict with the information on the wikipedia pages of the songs themselves even. Given the evidence at hand, I believe these songs should be removed from her page. Let me say that I have a huge amount of respect for Carol Kaye as a musician, but in this case, her claims do not stand up.

Cyclopseslayer 03:04, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

I think the most helpful way to handle this would be...

1) Add the information about affidavits from Holland and Cosby into the article's Motown section and

2) Drop the disputed titles to the bottom of the Discography/bass sections with a note that they're disputed. (done Gwen Gale 03:49, 9 July 2007 (UTC))

Cheers, Gwen Gale 03:43, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

• I think that would be fair -- and also tell the story better than simply omitting the songs would do. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 03:54, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

this is total disrespect!

james jamerson needs to be credited for his performance on the four tops song bernadette. this is an outrage!!!! i am mad beyond words that this is allowed to go on its like saying paul is not a beatle or bush is as not an idiot. stop trying to destroy this mans legacy.

cite requests

I agree the article could use some citations and I strongly support the tag at the top of the article which notes their lack and requests them. The disputed Motown credits in the discography aside, most of the information in the article is widely supported and there is no need to scatter citation requests throughout the text. Much of the biographical material comes from her website but can be generally confirmed elsewhere.

If some assertion of fact in the text is being directly disputed (as to fact) by an editor, I'd say please post notice of that dispute here and make a specific citation request in the article. Otherwise, the citation tag at the top should be enough to alert readers that the article is not sufficiently footnoted under WP policy. Thanks and cheers to all. Gwen Gale 03:59, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually, if citations aren't added in the next few days I'm going to start removing uncited material. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 19:08, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

If you start blanking content it will likely be restored. Blanking content is not helpful under WP policy. Nor are threats. If you have a specific dispute, I would suggest you bring it up here and by all means, put a disputed tag on the section. Meanwhile the Kaye's Motown credits controversey is widely documented in the music press and the article already has this citation to support it. Yes, I'd like to see some others footnoted, they'll show up. Cheers. Gwen Gale 02:11, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Gwen, I direct you to our POLICY on this subject AGAIN:

"We must get the article right.[1] Be very firm about high quality references, particularly about details of personal lives. Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material—whether negative, positive, or just highly questionable—about living persons should be removed immediately and without discussion from Wikipedia articles,[2] talk pages, user pages, and project space." From WP:BLP

Get it now? This is not an editing dispute - this is you edit-waring to include policy violations. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 04:43, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Are you saying there is no controversy regarding Kaye's bass credits on certain Motown recordings?

Please review WP:POINT. 80% or more of Wikipedia is not yet sourced according to WP policy. With all due respect, if you try to blank 80% of this wiki, most of your edits will be reverted. If you're truly concerned about the content of this article, I suggest you get busy finding some sources to back up your edits. Meantime, citations you have requested will come. Please do not blank article content. Thank you and all the best. Gwen Gale 05:44, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

We have received a complaint about the material by the subject of the article.

I am not saying "there is no controversy" - I am saying that this section has no bloody sources. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 18:45, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

If Ms Kaye has complained, this is something for WP:OFFICE to handle, through policy (I'm not a big fan of all WP policies but this is a public wiki and I do wholly support them when it comes to my article edits). Gwen Gale 23:13, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

• That bassland.net article really isn't a very good source; it's unsigned and not well referenced. We need much better sources in the "disputed" section. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 18:50, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree the bassland article is not at all acceptable (erm, I mean, as a source, it sucks). I've read about this controversy elsewhere. As a compromise I'd be willing to accept a "disputed" tag on a restored Motown controversey section until we can get some reasonable sources up. Lastly, as I said above, if Ms Kaye has complained, the only way to handle her complaint through policy is WP:OFFICE, which can verify it's truly her complaining and make a decision about how to resolve it. PS, I'm a huge fan of Carol Kaye. My jaw drops when I think about her career. She played on so many publicly released and successful recordings and soundtracks... and Motown kept such sloppy records, I have no doubt that she is utterly sincere and that there is a reasonable explanation for the disconnect between her statements and the claims of a few people who were working with Motown back in the day. Cheers to all. Gwen Gale 23:05, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

This type of complaint is very much within the scope of what the OTRS team deals with on a regular basis and is simply not yet serious enough to warrant the involvement of of OFFICE

The facts are clear:

1. The section does not conform to WP:V
2. The section violates WP:BLP
3. Jimbo has specifically stated that we should have NO information rather then BAD information. "It should be removed, aggressively, unless it can be sourced." - Tue May 16 20:30:15 UTC 2006
4. The subject has complained about the content.

• I have a fair level of confidence that it is truly Carol... And even if email was fraudulent, it doesn't invalidate the above facts and policies.

Basically thats it. The "leave it in and wait for sources" is what is often practiced but it is against policy and it is especially a bad idea when someone complains. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 22:47, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Instrument(s)

Bass guitar and electric bass are not the same instruments. Therefore it must say "electric bass". Instrument builders such as Ibanez (www.ibanez.com) and Gibson (www.gibson.com) speak of "electric bass". The electric bass has four strings. The bass guitar has six strings, each string tuned one octave down compared to the regular guitar tuning. The strings 3 (G) ,4 (D) ,5 (A), and 6 (E) of the electric guitar correspond to strings 1 (G), 2 (D), 3 (A), and 4 (E) of the electric bass. Carol Kaye plays electric bass. According to an interview she gave for "Vintage Guitar Magazine" She did also play bass guitar in the sixties (she calls it "Dano bass guitar, and Danelectro, refering to the instrument's brand). Source: http://www.vintageguitar.com/artists/details.asp?ID=41 Jubjan 22:13, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Re: "The bass guitar has six strings, each string tuned one octave down compared to the regular guitar tuning.":

No, the instrument to which you refer is a particular variant of the bass guitar. The bass guitar has historically had four strings only, and to this day most bass guitars still have only four strings. The five-string bass guitar is another variant of the four-string bass guitar. Some bass guitarists evidently prefer to call their instrument an "electric bass", but that circumstance doesn't authorize you radically to rewrite history and the English language to suit your personal inclinations. Because there do exist nowadays electric double basses, electric bass is necessarily an ambiguous term. TheScotch 03:52, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Here is a quote from Encyclopedia Britannica, its "Fender, Leo" entry: "Clarence Leo Fender American inventor and manufacturer of electronic musical instruments....In 1951 the Fender Precision Bass, the world's first electric bass guitar [my emphasis], was unveiled...."

For more highly reputable sources see the "Carol Kaye's occupation" section of this page. TheScotch (talk) 17:50, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Disputed credits section

Due to an increased campaign to completely remove this section, I have done some research of my own, and I would like to remind both parties involved, that the article's goal is to report on Kaye's life, accomplishments and credits, while keeping with biographies of living persons. This means that any controversial information must be sourced with references. So, since the point of contention was that the one reference was not enough to validate the information, I have found additional references to support the fact that the credits are disputed. Please note that this article will not (and should not) claim to say who is right, and who is wrong, but merely state that there exists a dispute over credits. I have therefore, also re-written the section to read as simply facts, as can be backed up by the references. The facts are: There are some Motown songs that Kaye claims on her site, and in interviews, to have been bassist on. Another artist claims that he recorded those songs in Detroit, and by Kaye's own admission, she's never recorded in Detroit. Again, this article will not side with either issue, but will simply state that the controversy exists. I request that regardless of if you agree or disagree, you leave the section in, as it is valid and sourced. Thank you, ^Ariel♥Gold 17:34, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

You consiter warr.org and bassland.net to be reliable sources? According to WP:RS we should avoid self-published sources. WP:V#SELF also talks about it. WP:BLP#Reliable_sources says: "Material from self-published books, zines, websites, and blogs should never be used as a source about a living person, unless written or published by the subject of the article" ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 18:09, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

The bassland reference was already there, I did not add it, I simply put it into template form. The Wilson and Alroy's Record review is borderline, but at least illustrates that this issue is known about. I re-worded the section to be clear that the article is not saying whether the issue is true or false, but simply that the dispute exists. Trust me, I'm fully aware of what a WP:RS is, and there are a multitude of forums and blog posts out there with this information that can't be added. If you feel these should be removed, or the entire section removed, fine, but I think that the information, as presented (that there exists a dispute) is backed up by references that prove this dispute is real, aside from the one (disputed) reference already existing in the article. (And I'll just state that I've never heard of this person before, until I was asked to watch for people removing this section from the article while on Recent Changes patrol, so I have no opinion either way.) The newswireless.net site has a section called "blog" but this reference seemed to be in the "news" section. Again, if you feel it is invalid, fine, but my intention was to simply illustrate that this controversy/dispute exists, because if you check this page's history, there is an ongoing edit war between anon editors consistently removing this section. Do what you wish, I'll stop watching the page. I was simply trying to put this into neutral format, to stop the edit wars. ^Ariel♥Gold 18:23, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

As I have no opinion either way, you can find more discussion about the dispute at http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=6832 in an article about a movie, Standing in the Shadows of Motown. Since I associate the word "Inquirer" with the tabloid in the U.S., I'm not sure what this publication is, it appears to be out of Europe, so if someone else wants to evaluate it, feel free. Again this article doesn't attempt to say who is right or not, but simply verifies that there is a dispute: "an ongoing dispute over Carol Kaye's claim that she played many of the hit bass parts generally attributed to James Jamerson.". Feel free to add it, or not. Cheers, ^Ariel♥Gold 04:02, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Re: "Kaye is known to have played on many Motown recording sessions in Los Angeles. However, some songs are disputed as to who played the bass. Kaye claims she was the bassist for "I Was Made to Love Her" by Stevie Wonder, and "Bernadette" by the Four Tops on her website, and in interviews. However, James Jamerson has claimed he recorded these with the Funk Brothers in Detroit, and Kaye has admitted that she has never recorded in Detroit.":

I think maintains would be better than claims (and maintained better than claimed) because for some people claims seems to connote fraudulence. I also think the last clause "and Kaye has admitted that she has never recorded in Detroit" is superflous--and "admitted" sounds prejudicial. I'm going to be "bold" now and risk making the changes I suggest. TheScotch 08:01, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Sounds great to me, and thanks for taking the time to re-word it! ^Ariel♥Gold 08:05, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I have amended this slightly. It suggested that Jamerson himself has continually disputed Kaye's claim - but he's been dead for over 20 years. His case is mainly stated by his ex-band-mates, and is being vindicated elsewhere by research into the matter (Keith Hughes mainly, for the ongoing Motown singles box sets).

I see my note to her listing on "Good Vibrations" has been removed. To be brief, according to Craig Slowinski, a leading Beach Boys historian, Carol - if she's on the song at all - in only on the last five seconds of the fade, which come from a Gold Star session she played on. The bass on the rest of the single, as evidenced by bootlegged session tapes on a 3CD set, was provided by Lyle Ritz (stand up string bass) & Ray Pohlman (Fender electric) during the verses, Pohlman, Bill Pitman (Danelectro) and Jimmy Bond (stand up) during the 1st & 3rd bridges, Ritz (stand up) in the 2nd bridge and Carl Wilson on Fender bass during the choruses. Not disputing that she played on the "GV" sessions (that's documented), but according to expert opinion, at best she's on 5 seconds (or just over 2%) of a 3 minute 36 second song.Andrew G. Doe (talk) 16:48, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Further research has established that none of the sessions she played on made it to the final version of the single as released in 1966. However, sessions she did play on have been released on The Smile Sessions in November 2011. Andrew G. Doe (talk) 13:28, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Motown dispute sources

Having quietly watched this for months now, I think the sources listed in support of including a note of this dispute in the article are barely reliable under WP:RS. While the dispute clearly exists, it seems to have been noted only in marginal music publications and is based wholly on Mr Slutsky's assertions (yes, I know he's gotten a few others who worked with Jamerson to agree with him). Meanwhile Kaye, who worked on thousands of recording sessions, at least has shreds of documentation (although this apparently has not been sufficient to end the disagreement). The pith is, whether or not she played on these tracks, Slutsky's assertion does not seem to be widely cited, nor widely accepted within the music industry and the references for it in this article aren't very stirring. Hence, given the weak sources along with WP:BLP, I would support removing the Motown dispute section from the article if any kind of consensus to do so shows up. If the Bassland article were the only citation, I'd rm it now as a non-notable and unreliable assertion made by an author hoping to sell books. Without an article in a major industry publication like Rolling Stone or Billboard, describing the results of definitive new research by a music historian (and lots of industry peer support would be helpful) this dispute doesn't seem encyclopedic to me. All kinds of emotional assertions about dead showbusiness folks (here it's Mr Jamerson) get sloshed about if there's a few quid to be made from it. Cheers. Gwen Gale (talk) 23:51, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Over time the truth always comes out

Thank god, I come back after awhile to see that I was right all along. Jamerson has been credited and Kaye's claims have proved to be worthless. Also, thankfully, that righteous prick 'Light current' was banned for sockpuppeting. Thank you wiki Gods for your actions and let Jamerson's legacy live on for all us fans, both of his work and life. 24.107.121.241 (talk) 19:00, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

BassLand Here

I note that someone claims that my BassLand.net website is not a credible source I would remind you that next to Wikipedia, my site was the number one source for James Jamerson on Yahoo and Google and was for more than ten years the absolute number one site for the search query for James Jamerson. I have participated on a panel discussing Jamerson at a tribute to him given by the Avery Research Center in his home town of Charleston S.C. (2003). Also on that panel was James' widow Anne Jamerson and his first cousin Anthony McKnight.

I have survived a meritless lawsuit waged (ten years ago) by Carol Kaye over her assertions that she and not Jamerson was the bassist on (in particular) the original Motown single of "I Was Made To Love Her" (by Stevie Wonder and not the beach boys version) and Bernadette. In that lawsuit Kaye sought to have my website removed or to have any mention of her and her Motown claims removed from my site. She was not successful in that endeavor. My immediate response was to add additional evidence that Jamerson was the bassist on the claimed recordings.

I recognize Wikipedia as a public free encyclopedia and suspect that the back and forth addition of material will continue and I am fine with that. IF anyone is interested there is a BBC radio interview in which Bernadette was discussed at length by (writer and producers) Holland Dozier Holland, Abdul Fakir (of the 4 Tops) and Louvain Demps, a background singer and member of the group the Andantes who worked for Motown and was a participant in the 2 day session for Bernadette. Carol Kaye's name was not mentioned and Jamerson's was via the fact that the session was done in Detroit with the Funk Brothers. Also in that interview are excerpts from the original multitrack master session tape from the Bernadette sessions and comments about it from Motown archivist Harry Winger. Recording dates and place of recording (Detroit) were featured prominently in the interview. I am seeking permission to share this interview with the public on my Jamerson site and will make the readers of Wikipedia aware of the result of that effort. I do have that interview in my possession and will use it to defend my position that in fact the bassist for that record was Jamerson. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.4.221.60 (talk) 18:45, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

The article text carries no assertions that Kaye played on "Bernadette", "I Was Made To Love Her" or any other of these disputed Motown recordings. Following Wikipedia's policy on the biographies of living persons, I see no need to stir this up again in the article text. If someday, widely verifiable and reliable music industry sources give this topic meaningful independent coverage, beyond material self-published by a single author (however sincere that author may be), it can be put in the article. Until and unless this happens, I have yet to see enough reliable sourcing either way to make any assertions at all in this article about those recordings, or about any dispute having to do with them. Gwen Gale (talk) 14:07, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes the article does not carry the assertions first hand but there is a link at the bottom of the article page (which Wikipedia seems to allow) the does point to some other page with all the false Motown claims, "Bernadette", "I Was Made To Love Her" and many more. I wonder if that is considered "credible"... Motown turns 50 this year and all the interviews I have seen with Berry Gordy or any of the Motown artist seem to ignore Carol's claims but they do talk about preserving the Motown Legacy. To me there is no question as to why Carol Kaye is not claimed in that legacy... She just was not there to the extend that the claims she makes (every where else but Wikipedia)... (BassLand)

Please see the following Wikipedia guidelines and policies: WP:EL, WP:V and also, WP:COI. Either way, Kaye's website is linked to this article because the article is about her. The contents of that website need not agree with your PoV, whether or not your PoV is supported by reliable sources. Gwen Gale (talk) 17:08, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

"Kaye talks about her Motown experiences with Tony Keys on Central FM Radio in Spain"

It's A Shame

It's a Shame (not The Spinners Motown recording that to my knowledge Carol Kaye has NOT claimed to have played on) that such a legend as Ms Kaye would ever claim to play on released recordings she clearly did not. Anyone with any knowledge of the disputed songs (I Was Made To Love Her & Bernadette in particular) would understand that Carol Kaye was NOT doubling Funk Brother Joe Messinas guitar line on IWMTLH, and Joe has NEVER recalled seeing Ms Kaye in the "Snakepit" or Studio A at Motowns Detroit recording studio when the session was cut, as well as Jamersons classic line on Bernadette, with definite and undisputable Funk Brothers instrumentation on the track. Also, and finally...anyone with half an ear can discern that NEITHER of those bass tracks were played with a PICK as Carol Kaye played with throughout her career. Her pickwork is easy to detect on the Pet Sounds tracks she cut, and virtually any other recording she performed on. Bernadette and IWMTLH are classic Jamerson flatwound sounds played with his one finger (The Hook)...NOT a bright and perky sounding pick. Ms Kaye deserves many accolades for her amazing studio career, however it's too bad that this misinformation based on apparently false claims has besmearched an otherwise brilliant career.

STUBASS —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.221.152.99 (talk) 04:42, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but neither of those songs is listed on this Wikipedia article. I have no idea where you got the information that she may have played on those songs, but its not in this Wikipedia article, so you are clearly complaining at the wrong location. --Jayron32 04:47, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Wiki "Rules" as pertains to Carol Kayes "claims"

If in fact Wiki rules state that any discussion should be directly related to what appears in the actual "article", then does that standard also apply to the "external links" listed within the article? If so, then I would direct your attention to an interview Ms Kaye did for Tony Keys of Central FM Radio-Spain where Ms Kaye CLEARLY claims to have played on The Four Tops "Can't Help Myself", "Bernadette" and Stevie Wonders "I Was Made To Love Her". She also implies earlier in the interview that it was Los Angeles musicians on The Temptations classic, "My Girl"...which of course we all know was a guitar line created and played by Funk Brother Robert White along with Jamersons classic bass intro and the rest of The Funk Brothers. As the individual who submitted the official nomination for The Funk Brothers Lifetime Achievement Award from NARAS, and the co-sponsor of the just awarded Star on the Hollywood Walk Of Fame for The Funk Brothers, I have spoken to several Funk Brothers regarding these erronious claims made by Ms Kaye, who practically claims in the interview to know more about Motown than Berry Gordy himself, despite the fact that none of the other Los Angeles or "Wrecking Crew" members have ever made any public recognition of these sessions in question Ms Kaye claims to have performed on.

Ms Kaye has, bitterly, in my opinion taken shots at the great James Jamerson which continue to this day, including this "backhanded" one published in the just issued "Session Legends & Studio Gear" issue of Bass Player magazine, where she states..."There was a lot of work and we tried to help everybody who came to town. When James Jamerson came out from Detroit, we all had a lot of respect for him because he started the Motown sound. I recommended him for dates, but got bawled out because there were 'problems'. If you couldn't come up to the Hollywood standard, you were out". I suppose these types of comments about a deceased legend are just as easy to get away with as Ms Kaye apparently believed it would be to lay claim to some of his most distinguished works.

STUBASS —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.3.4.2 (talk) 02:00, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Fine, but this article has not made that claim. If you would like, please complain to Ms. Kaye directly. We at Wikipedia have no control over what she says. --Jayron32 03:31, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Feud with TorrentFreak

Just curious but why does information about Carol Kaye's feud with TorrentFreak keep being removed? When a musician starts specifically telling her fans to go after individual members of an on-line community, I'd figure it'd pass the 'notability' test.64.244.102.2 (talk) 19:48, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

It's not at all notable to her career and the citation which was given, to a blog by the very folks who say they are feuding with her, is not independent and either way would not be taken as a reliable source. See also WP:BLP. Gwen Gale (talk) 20:00, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Yet you accept her own website and books as a 'reliable source' ? C'mon, can't have it both ways - either both are admissable, or neither are. Andrew G. Doe (talk) 11:36, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Controversy over credits

I'm aware this issue has been discussed before. If reliable sources to justify the allegations against Ms Kaye are not provided, I will remove the section per policy at WP:BLP. Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:39, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

Would a sworn affidavit by the guy who was with one of the tracks she claimed to play bass on from writing it through recording to actually boxing up the single and mailing it be considered a "reliable source" ? Would Carol Kaye herself admitting she never set foot in Detroit - ever - be considered a "reliable source" ? Would her former colleagues in The Wrecking Crew denying they played on tracks she claimed they did along with her be considered a "reliable source" ? This controversy is based on an established fact: Carol Kaye did NOT play on ANY of the MoTown hits she claimed she did. She also never played on at least two Beach Boys tracks she claims to ("Surfin' USA" & "I Was Made To Love Her", as established by the musician contracts) and some Jan & Dean trcaks as well ("Surf City, for example). These are not up for discussion: they are facts. Andrew G. Doe (talk) 07:51, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

So.... "facts" are not up for discussion? Wikipedia is more about sources than facts. Einar aka Carptrash (talk) 16:50, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Wichita Lineman credit and sources

Why is the Don Bagley credit given prominence? The ref to Rhinestone Cowboy makes no sense to me

Don Bagley played bass on Wichita Lineman. Carol Kaye played percussion. See link to contract for session work - :http://www.wreckingcrewfilm.com/afmcontracts/Campbell,Glen_WichitaLineman.pdf and "Rhinestone Cowboy" (Glen Campbell)

On Carol Kaye site http://www.carolkaye.com/www/library/faq.htm FAQ 10 I never forgot what a thrill it was to cut "Wichita Lineman" for Glen. And yes, he borrowed my Dano 6-stg. bass guitar to play his famous solo on (also for Galveston).

Here is a clip of Carol Kaye showing her intro to Wichita Lineman http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p013nf55

On Carol Kaye site on the bongos credit FAQ 30 is the (note: Am listed as bongos player on a great deal of the Ray Charles hit records contracts!) Carol Kaye says http://www.musicradar.com/news/guitars/carol-kaye-my-10-greatest-recordings-of-all-time-508956/7 and lists her playing on the song as in her top 10 http://www.musicradar.com/news/guitars/carol-kaye-my-10-greatest-recordings-of-all-time-508956/7 the wiki page Wichita Lineman has Carol Kaye as bass guitar

I will clip from article insert it here and edit Davdevalle (talk) 14:33, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Would some of the discussion here even be the slightest relevant if she had been a man? But she is a woman, and a woman does not contribute to rock music. is that what some of you think?! This woman has done more to the music inustry than a bunch of notorious guys. That´s for sure. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.194.191.191 (talk) 00:49, 6 April 2014 (UTC)