Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2016 May 17

May 17

Template:African-American Civil Rights Movement

• Template:African-American Civil Rights Movement (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

This navbox has become so large as to defeat its purpose. Nobody is going to find anything in this huge pile of links. It is essentially a list, and in that regard redundant to the better-structured Timeline of the African-American Civil Rights Movement (1954–68). If kept, it should be reduced to the timeline and renamed accordingly.  Sandstein  21:35, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Keep The size of the template is to be expected. The Civil Rights Movement was the largest social movement in the United States during the 20th century. The template is divided into six groupings and each group is not difficult to navigate. The timeline is an article list, not a navbox that is posted on numerous articles and serves as a link with other articles. The template also goes beyond events. It includes other aspects of the movement like notable participants and organizations, authoritative scholars, concepts and ideas, and other related topics. The proposed timeline template would dispose of those pertinent aspects of the movement. Consequently, no modification is necessary. Mitchumch (talk) 22:17, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

• Yuge Keep Per Mitchumch. So maybe it needs to be put into an expanding template, with three or so sections. But delete? I've been told that some good articles sometimes get deleted here. Randy Kryn 00:20, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

  I moved the 'Related' section from the second slot to the fifth. This makes three natural break-points if we want to do one open box and two hidden boxes. Seems better this way too, so thanks to the nominator. Randy Kryn 00:34, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

• Trim and split to component navboxes to reduce the size. You could have one for the events, and another for the activists, for example. The inclusion of some of the "Influences" group seem a little tangential for my taste (Jesus, Leo Tolstoy, etc...) so maybe this section does not need to remain in the result. --Rob Sinden (talk) 09:04, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

  A folding template with one open section would accommodate your concerns without losing any data. As for influences, the movement activities and way of acting were organized around the principles of nonviolence as laid out in Jesus' Sermon on the Mount, which were then defined by Tolstoy in The Kingdom of God is Within You, both of which were then used by Mohandas Gandhi and later specifically taken up by the major organizers and strategists of the movement. It's a direct lineage to the events and provides an important step-by-step look at how the movement was created, organized, and became successful. Randy Kryn 11:08, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

  I find "folding" templates frustrating and unhelpful, best to split into separate navboxes when they get too large. Something like {{American Civil War}} is close to useless in its current state. And thanks, you've demonstrated exactly how these "influences" entries are most definitely way too tangential for inclusion. --Rob Sinden (talk) 11:21, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

  The historians section should probably go too. --Rob Sinden (talk) 11:26, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

  Folding templates seems a very good way to present a large templates' quality information in a concise format. Historians and influences seem fine on this template. Since this is about the drastic suggestion to delete the template, let's try the folding to see what it looks like, with the "Events" section made visible on the fold. Randy Kryn 11:42, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

  The influences are definitely way too tangential for inclusion, as you demonstrate. They should go, to avoid making this enormous template any larger than it need be. And as a rule of thumb, I think "influences" or "influenced" sections are usually going to be too tangential for inclusion. They should be approached with caution. --Rob Sinden (talk) 11:44, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

  What do you mean by tangential, and is that a thing in Wikipedia guidelines? If you take the term literally then every person on any template can be considered tangential. The influences section on this template and the items included (such as nonviolence) have been approached with caution and thought in order to provide the background and foundation of the movement, the major organizing participants' reasoning. It can be considered the backbone of the template, is actually a small section, and was included to provide key and arguably essential data to students of the movement. Randy Kryn 12:00, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

  Tangential, as in only indirectly related. Navboxes should only group together things which are directly related. See WP:NAVBOX #1-3. Leo Tolstoy is not directly related to this topic, nor are many of the other entries. The larger a navbox is, the less helpful it is to our readers, which is why we need to be careful about what to include. --Rob Sinden (talk) 12:05, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

  Tolstoy's book The Kingdom of God is Within You is directly related, but yes, maybe Tolstoy himself isn't needed. Good point. I don't see other entries not related, well, maybe Jesus, but his Sermon on the Mount was a guiding document of the leaders of the movement. Randy Kryn 12:12, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

  They still fail WP:NAVBOX #2, which would imply that even these are too tangential. --Rob Sinden (talk) 12:19, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

  Deep-sixed Jesus and Tolstoy. Will add data (later, going off-site) to the two works pages. Randy Kryn 12:22, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

• Split and trim per Rob. When you start adding people to navboxes, this... happens. It's not a bad thing to be linking people, but it most certainly makes the template unwieldy. --Izno (talk) 12:23, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

Template:Hrethling

• Template:Hrethling (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

Unreferenced since 2015. Magioladitis (talk) 23:36, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

This is an easily verifiable family tree. In those early and innocent days of Wikipedia when I made it, you weren't expected to add a bibliography for that kind of template.--Berig (talk) 16:18, 13 May 2016 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ~ Rob^Talk 20:54, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Template:Paragraph break

• Template:Paragraph break (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

An unhelpful template that inserts a styled HTML div rather than a paragraph break. I last saw it used in talk-page list items; not, as claimed, in footnotes. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 17:29, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

• Comment Wow, this template has been changed a lot since I created it in 2012. I'm okay with its removal if its uses can be subst'ed with something that produces the same amount of space.  — Scott • talk 17:48, 17 May 2016 (UTC)
  • Keep For the longest time I thought that I was the only one using this. That's clearly no longer the case, and good arguments are being made for its utility.  — Scott • talk 09:15, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
• Keep I use this all the time, it's very helpful since "p" has been deprecated. I don;t see a valid argument for deleting it. BMK (talk) 19:03, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

  "p" has been deprecated What do you mean? --Izno (talk) 20:28, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

• Keep It avoids the use of <p> where that tag would cause an accessibility issue, see Template:Paragraph break#Purpose, also User talk:Magioladitis/Archive 21#FGM. --Redrose64 (talk) 19:22, 17 May 2016 (UTC)
  • If screen readers cannot act on paragraph markup within list items, that's honestly their problem--paragraphs from an HTML specification standpoint are allowed within list elements and should consequently be expected. --Izno (talk) 20:28, 17 May 2016 (UTC)
  • There is nothing about accessibility in Template:Paragraph break#Purpose. See also below. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:10, 17 May 2016 (UTC)
    • What part of "can cause problems for navigation with screen readers" is not about accessibility? --Redrose64 (talk) 23:15, 17 May 2016 (UTC)
• Keep This sounds like it could solve the accessibility issue at Supergirl (TV series)#Cast and characters and other articles following that layout. nyuszika7h (talk) 19:40, 17 May 2016 (UTC)
• Comment: Template:Paragraph break#Purpose says "it is not possible to introduce paragraph breaks using newlines alone. For example, within a list item...."
  
  That's bunkum. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:10, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

  I assume your post is intended as a demonstration of "paragraph breaks using newlines alone" - but you have not used newlines, alone or otherwise; you have used two <br /> tags, which are not the same thing at all. This →

← is a newline: observe how it breaks the list structure. --Redrose64 (talk) 23:15, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

The W3C defines <br /> as "a line break". I take that to be synonymous with "newline". On the other hand, the HTML markup emitted by your comment is not a newline, but </dd></dl></li></ul><p>. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:07, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

• Keep. I use this a lot, after being told to stop using <p> for paragraph breaks in bundled references. By the way, on the Village Pump this discussion has caused my use of the template (in this post) to show up as "see TfD". Can someone fix that, please? SarahSV ^(talk) 00:44, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
  • Fixed it myself. [1] SarahSV ^(talk) 01:24, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
  • Why are you unable to use <br /> in such cases? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:09, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

Template:Primeiro de Agosto men's handball roster

• Template:Primeiro de Agosto men's handball roster (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

old and unused. Frietjes (talk) 14:33, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Template:3-sphere symmetry groups

• Template:3-sphere symmetry groups (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

not used in any articles. perhaps it should be turned into a list article, and have the extreme width fixed? or, merged with Template:3-sphere symmetry groups2? Frietjes (talk) 14:30, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Template:CF/Content review/Latest

• Template:CF/Content review/Latest (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

unused. Frietjes (talk) 14:16, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Template:Biophilia (album) track listing

• Template:Biophilia (album) track listing (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
• Template:Homogenic tracks (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)
• Template:Post track listing (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

Per previous consensus on these album track list templates. —IB ^{[ Poke ]} 11:53, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

• delete, redundant navigation. Frietjes (talk) 13:43, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

Template:Hits

• Template:Hits (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

Created as a canned help desk response. No longer relevant or accurate (see toollabs:pageviews, introduced I think in Aug 15), so this template is basically useless without a complete rewrite, and there is no call for a rewritten version. —  crh ₂₃  (Talk) 10:52, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

• Thank you for notifying me about the TfD. I haven't checked/used this template in a while and don't mind if it is deleted, but can it not be archived somewhere? There are still a few links to it. Thehelpfulone 12:38, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

Template:Forbidden Poetry

• Template:Forbidden Poetry (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

navbox with nothing to navigate between; even the topic is redlinked. NSH002 (talk) 04:56, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

• delete, provides insufficient navigation. Frietjes (talk) 13:43, 17 May 2016 (UTC)
• Delete, insufficient links....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 15:59, 17 May 2016 (UTC)
• Delete. Not enough active links to provide useful navigation. --Rob Sinden (talk) 09:06, 18 May 2016 (UTC)

Template:Hector John Barros, Jr.

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).

The result of the discussion was Delete; deleted as G2 by Anthony Appleyard (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) AnomieBOT⚡ 19:18, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

• Template:Hector John Barros, Jr. (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

Pointless unused non-template-like template. Dicklyon (talk) 03:55, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

• delete per nom --NSH002 (talk) 04:59, 17 May 2016 (UTC)
• Delete No idea what purpose the creator intended this to serve. —  crh ₂₃  (Talk) 10:56, 17 May 2016 (UTC)
• Delete per nominator....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 13:29, 17 May 2016 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review).