Talk:Chris Kyle

Information from The Intercept

I don't believe this information [1] should be included in the lede. The recent edit wars show how controversial this information is, so please work to include it in the article where appropriate. And now I noticed that the article has been protected so I am unable to improve it. Will an admin please remove the third paragraph from the lede and include it in the body? Per WP:LEAD, the lede is a summary, not a news style paragraph. It should also reflect material expanded down below. Neither of these guidelines are followed in this article. Mr Ernie (talk) 14:22, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

• (ec) Agreed. This edit is recent and has no consensus. There is no consensus for addition and resolves to a single, dubious, source. It also is not discussed at all in the article so it shouldn't be in the LEAD. A review from Lectonar should show only a single user has been edit warring to keep this material without discussion or consensus. --DHeyward (talk) 14:35, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

Would you care to address the specific sources, or are you coming on behalf of your friend, Mr Ernie? Three completely WP:RS sources (Raw Story, Fox 5 San Diego, and Washington Post) concur on coverage. The Washington Post story is quite explicit that the source claimed by DHeyward to be "authoritative" is in fact not by Navy policy:

A Navy spokeswoman, Lt. Jackie Pau, said Wednesday that the service is working to determine the origin of the disparity.

“The Navy considers the individual service member’s official military personnel file and our central official awards records to be the authoritative sources for verifying entitlement to decorations and awards,” she said in an email. “The form DD214 is generated locally at the command where the service member is separated. Although the information on the DD214 should match the official records, the process involves people and inevitably some errors may occur.”

We could also add the news coverage from The Guardian, another WP:V, WP:RS source, if need be. Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz (talk) 14:30, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

Agree that this shouldn't be in the lead at this point. All of these sources are getting their information from The Intercept, so really adding more sources saying the same thing doesn't add anything. I can't find a source right now, but there is some concerns on The Intercept's reporting and that his DD214 actually has a higher medal count than what Kyle even said he had in his book. I'm sure that this isn't the end of this story and that there will be more information forthcoming. Jauerback^dude?/_dude. 14:45, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

Not claiming this is an WP:RS, but here's an example. Jauerback^dude?/_dude. 14:48, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

Not only is that not an WP:RS, it seems to be a Tinfoil Hat site, Jauerback. The Resurgent | Erick Erickson's Home for Conservative Activists

Seriously from the text; "The Intercept wants to attack the credibility and integrity of the SEALs in general and since they can’t claim Chris Kyle was gay, as the left loves to do with historic figures"...

If that is what those wanting to remove properly sourced information from the article are relying on, then this is getting weird fast. Also considering the insults and worse that DHeyward and the IP sock/meatpuppet have heaped around, such as calling people a "maroon", or accusing people of a plot to "defame a deceased hero" or "spit on a corpse". Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz (talk) 14:51, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for not really reading anything I wrote and drawing your own conclusions. Jauerback^dude?/_dude. 14:53, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

Even if a bio falls outside of BLP due to length of time since the subjects death, we depend on only the least partisan and unbiased reliable references, especially for contentious material.--MONGO 15:01, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

Prostetnic please assume good faith and do not be confrontational. It's clear you are passionate about this topic for whatever reason. However we must adhere to the policies. We aren't even talking about WP:RS - we are talking about you inserting comments into the lead that are not supported by the body of the article. Lectonar, you protected a page with policy violations and the end result of an edit war, so please help us address them. Mr Ernie (talk) 15:30, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

Mr Ernie, my desire is for the page to follow the policies of Wikipedia. Thus far for this, one editor has made a number of insults directed against me, he and a sock/meatpuppet have made accusations of bad faith, and of course, there is a question of stated intent to POV edit that may indicate someone is misreading policy in service of an agenda against their perception of "left wing bias". Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz (talk) 15:44, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

Medal counts

Per policy on the medal counts: we have the following.

• WP:RS, WP:V sources - numerous - verifying the official naval record counts.
• WP:RS, WP:V sources including an official policy statement from the Navy that the DD214 is not authoritative.
• WP:SPS sourcing (Kyle's autobiography) claiming a higher medal count than the official records.

According to WP:SPS, Kyle's autobiography cannot override the official, authoritative records. We also cannot have the page's medal counts reflect a count on a document the Navy has officially stated to not be authoritative, when they have directly indicated which documents are the authoritative records. Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz (talk) 15:04, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

You really should reread WP:SPS, because his autobiography is not considered that. Jauerback^dude?/_dude. 15:17, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

Seems pretty clear that it is a WP:SPS. And since it makes claims that contradict the official, authoritative records, fails point 4, " doubt as to its authenticity". Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz (talk) 15:21, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

You didn't reread it, did you? Jauerback^dude?/_dude. 15:23, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

Ok, I'll try and help you out a bit. The key part of WP:SPS that you're missing is this: "Self-publishing is the publication of any book or other media by its author without the involvement of an established publisher" (ephmasis mine). American Sniper was published by William Morrow and Company. Jauerback^dude?/_dude. 16:14, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

• You are missing a basic point: When the discharge is completed, the signd DD214 is fowarded to records and the VA. It is supposed to update the official record. Serviceman are explicitly told that the DD214 will be the official record so it must be correct before they sign. The issue here is that the central record were not updated, not that the DD214 was incorrect. Many awards acknowledged at the unit level are not reflected until separation because naming people compromises their personal security. This is so brain-dead obvious as to not require explanation. Seal team 6 is the least decorated unit per central records because the unit doesn't update them when a name could invite retaliation. This characterization of Kyle is unwarranted, poorly sourced and contentious. The DD214 is not a SPS, it is the definitive service record provided by the military to discharged veterans. --DHeyward (talk) 15:31, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

DHeyward, you keep making that claim but it is factually incorrect and further, you are making highly un-WP:CIVIL attacks on editors by accusing them of being "brain-dead" or otherwise. The DD214 is not authoritative, per the statements of the Navy in WP:RS, WP:V sources. Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz (talk) 15:39, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

To be 100% clear here: DHeyward, if you are claiming that the DD214 is supposed to be authoritative, then you need to provide your source or evidence for that claim - preferably without such uncivil namecalling such as "brain-dead." Simply making the assertion, in the face of official navy representatives stating the contrary in WP:RS, WP:V news coverage, will not work. Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz (talk) 15:58, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

You keep casually throwing around WP:CIVIL, which is a pretty big stretch here. You weren't called "brain-dead" nor was it implied. Replace "brain-dead" with "blatantly" in his sentence (which I believe is the intended meaning, anyway). Would you be saying he's calling you "blatant"? Is that uncivil? Jauerback^dude?/_dude. 16:30, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz, here is how it works: local commands recommend awards like the Silver Star to the appropriate board. It gets approved, denied, downgraded, etc. The decision is sent back to the unit. The unit issues the award. The local units admin updates their local records and also NDAWS (NDAWS is relatively new computer based award tracking system). NDAWS is the only system that the Navy has that is service wide. When the person leaves military service, they are given a list of their awards, years of service, discharge code and any other relevant details of service on their DD214 from the same admin responsible for updating NDAWS. If the veteran later learns of a discrepancy in their official file or NDAWS, they send in a form to correct it along with their DD214 that shows the actual medals earned. NDAWS is then corrected (they can also check with the unit). The DD214 is the definitive record of service and is what employers, the VA and any other entity wants to see. No other record is acceptable in place of the DD214. NDAWS is the official system for tracking awards but it is not definitive. For FOIA it's the only record available and therefore the only record the Navy can publicly confirm. Think of it like vaccines: your local doctor maintains records of childhood vaccinations, the school is given copies by the patient/doctor for their records. If the school doesn't enter the doctors vaccinations or don't have a copy, they don't have a record. They will say they don't have a record and may even deny admission until they receive the doctor's records and that is the "authority" for admissions. The doctor cannot release that information publicly. But it's simply incorrect to claim the school's official record is definitive over the doctors when every one knows the school gets their records from the doctor. They simply need a copy. The DD214 is the proof. Submit a form for correction with the DD214 and the Navy updates its records. The local unit is responsible for the DD214 and responsible for updating NDAWS. The service file (OMPF) that contains everything including citations for awards, performance reviews, promotions, etc, and includes the DD214 and NDAWS generated awards. Of all the records, the DD214 is most important for summarizing service and it is why it's the only document that employers and the VA wish to see. See the last sentence here which shows that the final authority for making sure personal awards are in NDAWS is the local chain of command which is the same department that issues the DD214 that lists personal awards. The central database needs the same manual update that was used to generate the DD214. --DHeyward (talk) 23:03, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

@DHeyward: Simple response: {{Citation Needed}}. Nothing you've said is correct, nor does it match the WP:RS, WP:V sources. Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz (talk) 23:07, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

Everything DHeyward has stated is true, PVJ. This link [2] takes you to an official government website that explains the importance and use of the DD214. Can you provide anything official from the United States Government that states the DD214 is not the definitive source for an individual's service record? If so, that's what you're going to have to do to support your claim that it's not. A story or two from a fringe website or online news and gossip sources that is mirroring what the fringe website claims is not providing a reliable source for Wikipedia purposes. DHeyward has supplied a link to another U.S. Government website. That's two sources that gives the purpose and importance of the DD214. If you're going to continue to push your point of view on this, you will have to come up with something that trumps the U.S. Government. Personally, I don't see how you can, but occasionally, I am wrong. Can you put up something more authoritative? -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 00:20, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

See above, Winkelvi. I'll requote it here. A Navy spokeswoman, Lt. Jackie Pau, said Wednesday that the service is working to determine the origin of the disparity.

“The Navy considers the individual service member’s official military personnel file and our central official awards records to be the authoritative sources for verifying entitlement to decorations and awards,” she said in an email. “The form DD214 is generated locally at the command where the service member is separated. Although the information on the DD214 should match the official records, the process involves people and inevitably some errors may occur.”

Now looking at the link you provided, it does not contain a claim that the DD214 is authoritative. So it appears you have either willfully or negligently misrepresented your source... Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz (talk) 00:44, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Also @Winkelvi:, you might want to look up DoD Instruction 1336.08: "b. The standard content of the military human resource records is the authoritative information as listed in Enclosure 2 and is the core set of standard military human resources records information for the Department of Defense. And that matches the Naval officer's statement: the authoritative records are the official military personnel file and central official awards records. Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz (talk) 00:51, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

When the DoD says the official military personnel file, that is the DD214 [3]. It is the major component of the OMPF for discharged veterans. The OMPF doesn't agree with NDAWS (the database of awards). That's all the Navy said. They in no way disclaimed the DD214 as it is part of the OMPF. --DHeyward (talk) 23:06, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

One thing you seem to not be connecting is that the DD214 is the final record and is the one that the personnel records are updated by, not the other way around. Give this time, it will come out that the DD214 is correct and the personnel records, for whatever reason, were not properly updated from the DD214. With as much press as this has gotten, I have no doubt that this will be cleared up by the end of the month. In the meantime, however, once the full protection of the article (due to edit warring) expires, the status quo of the article needs to be restored. I hope there will be no more edit warring after that occurs. Hopefully discussion here will continue and a proper consensus sought. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 03:07, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Still waiting on either of you, Dheyward, Winkelvi, to provide a source for your assertions.... Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz (talk) 23:10, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

1. - the DD214 is not authoritative. Statement by Navy is clear.
2. - "it will come out" - you're getting into unsourced assertions. Also, I'm pretty sure that "Winkelvi's Ouija Board" is not a WP:RS in any sense.

Seriously, if your goal is to continue to make nonfactual assertions and unsourced claims, this discussion isn't going to make any headway. Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz (talk) 04:09, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

And given that DHeyward is now making blatant personal attacks again... Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz (talk) 04:10, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Please stop casting aspersions. What exactly did you consider a personal attack in a statement that only discusses the source? --DHeyward (talk) 08:43, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Again, you're either misreading this or deliberately misinterpreting what is being said. This is in no way a personal attack and the mere fact that you keeping making these accusations is bordering on yourself being uncivili. Jauerback^dude?/_dude. 14:15, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

DHeyward, please stop making blatant personal attacks such as accusing people of defamation and "stealing valor." We are all PAINFULLY aware that you have a right wing WP:COI as stated on your talk page. Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz (talk) 14:16, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

@Jauerback: DHeyward's words: " They found a way to use USA Today's article on secret awards with redacted citations to defame Kyle. Thry are the ones that are stealing valor." - These are completely unacceptable. Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz (talk) 14:19, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Who is being attacked here? Jauerback^dude?/_dude. 14:23, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

1. The DD214 is THE definitive document. It's the only acceptable document for benefits. A discrepancy means the clerk that keyed in the awards on DD214 didn't key them into the awards database. If he had the record for the DD214, it needs to be added to the awards database. That is how it works. See the vaccination example above. Personal awards are keyed in by the unit admin. The DD214 is just as much part of the personnel file as any other record. The out of context Navy quote is an an indication the source is unreliable. 2. The claim that the DD214 is wrong is poorly sourced. It is much more likely that the single source for that assertion, seven years after it was issued, is inaccurate. The USA Today article on awards that were given in secret (mostly for personal security reasons, they don't publicly name the recipient on the citation). There are over 100 of these including a secret one that matches Kyle's unit, location and dates. It very much looks like a "gotcha" attempt as the Navy would release the number on the DD214 but not the citation. The unit would have discretion not to enter it into the computer. For example, there are very few SEAL team 6 awards in the system but make no mistake that the number of awards on their DD214 is accurate and numerous. DD214's are not subject to FOIA requests. Kyle released his. Until there is more proof that it is wrong, this single source is simply not enough. Even if it is wrong, Kyle doesn't generate his own DD214. In long standing tradition, he didn't describe any action that led to an award as they don't advertise. Read the USA Today article on the secret Silver Star awards. --DHeyward (talk) 08:43, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

(If the DD214 is never wrong why is there a DD215?) The Navy Times seems to have the best approach to this controversy; they explain the allegations - which they say they've known about for 2 years - and further explain that they have seen a (redacted) list of the secret citations, one of which closely matches Kyle. The controversy is too notable to just whitewash from the article. Handled sensitively, it doesn't have to accuse Kyle of misrepresentation, it just has to explain to the casual reader what the current known facts are. Keri (talk) 12:32, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Kyle's autobiography does not strictly fall foul of WP:SPS: "Self-published and questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, usually in articles about themselves or their activities" Keri (talk) 12:42, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

His autobiography isn't a SPS. It was published by William Morrow Publishers, a division of Harper Collins. In no way does this autobiography fall under SPS. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 13:15, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

I completely agree it's not a SPS. But it is a WP:PRIMARY source, which means it shouldn't be used to supersede secondary sources. Unless we can find a secondary source that addresses the difference in counts, we should emphasize the count in the current secondary sources. --A D Monroe III (talk) 13:52, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

The controversy shouldn't be whitewashed from the article, but neither should all the facts that PVJ purged incorrectly claiming "SPS". State Kyle's claims as well what his DD 214 shows and what the recent FOIA request shows. Jauerback^dude?/_dude. 14:06, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

The Navy Times article linked above pitches it about right, I think. Keri (talk) 14:40, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

The Navy Times article is just parroting The Intercept. The DD214 is part of the "official military personnel file." That's where it goes. The awards database is separate (NDAWS). It is also used by the Navy especially for non-personal awards (Silver Star is a personal award). Contrary to how it's portrayed by the lone editor above, this is not a case of DD214 disagreeing with "offical sources", it's a case of the "official military personnel file" (OMPF) disagreeing with the awards database. The Navy is not making a claim that one is right or wrong, just that two official sources are out of sync. The OMPF (including the DD214) can have errors. So can the awards database (NDAWS). The admin that finishes the DD214 is often the same person responsible for NDAWS updates. Personal awards such as Silver Stars are entered manually at the unit level as documented above. SEALS historically shun attention and won't address details of individual merit. The are shunned when they do it. Read about Matt Bissonnette. There will be no confirmation or denial from the Kyle's comrades, they will ignore it because the question is unimportant to the people that were there (offensive actually, when stated or asked by those that were not there) and is why they don't even want their names released on the official citations. Disputing the OMPF with NDAWS by a single journalist isn't worth their breath. So far there is not anything to indicate that Kyle was non-factual or anything that rises as proof that OMPF and DD214 is wrong and NDAWS is correct. There is much more reliable evidence that NDAWS is not definitive for personal awards considering they can be issued without identifying the recipient and hand entered. --DHeyward (talk) 22:57, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

{{CITATION NEEDED}}. Or, That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence. Or, Extraordinary Claims Require Extraordinary Evidence. - Take your pick, DHeyward, but please stop it with the assertions lacking any sources to support them. Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz (talk) 23:27, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Without RS, that's all just original research. Keri (talk) 23:41, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

It's been provided multiple times but here it is again. Click and read. [4]. --DHeyward (talk) 00:01, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

DHeyward, it would help so much if you would refrain from misrepresenting your claimed sources. Your page does not state that the DD214 is authoritative - indeed, it even states that the DD214's only purpose in the file is for date-checking "date and type of separation/discharge/retirement (including DD Form 214, Report of Separation, or equivalent)".

You've obviously never seem one. The DD-214 includes all of "date and type of enlistment/appointment; duty stations and assignments; training, qualifications, performance; awards and decorations received; disciplinary actions; insurance; emergency data; administrative remarks; date and type of separation/discharge/retirement" - even the short version that Kyle released has all that information." Luckily we have an article on it and you can present your knowledge on that talk page instead of making it up here.. See DD Form 214. --DHeyward (talk) 02:41, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Further, we may also go to Military.com for an updated perspective:

But multiple Navy officials who spoke with Military.com said they now consider the documents on file with Navy Personnel command to be the most accurate record of Kyle's combat awards.

"The Navy considers the individual service member's official military personnel file and our central official awards records to be the authoritative sources for verifying entitlement to decorations and awards," Navy Personnel Command spokesman Cullen James said in a statement provided to Military.com. "The form DD-214 is generated locally at the command where the service member is separated. Although the information on the DD-214 should match the official records, the process involves people and inevitably some errors may occur."

That's a direct comment from Navy Personnel Command, that says the DD-214 is not authoritative. Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz (talk) 00:12, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

That quote is not on that page. You don't seem to get that both DD-214 (part of the official military personnel file) and personal awards like the Silver Star entered into the central official awards records are generated locally. Go read how to correct either one: if the DD-214 is missing a personal award, contact local command. If it's missind from the award database, contact local command. They are handled at the same level. His OIC signed his DD-214 and it becomes part of his official military personnel file. There is a discrepancy in that they both originate at the local command level. Until they file a DD-215, the DD-214 stands as the record of his awards as verified by his local command. After discharge, there is no reason to update the awards database (guess how man Vietnam and Gulf War 1 vets are missing awards in the awards database? Try to guess what document they use for personal awards? The awards database is relatively new and considering the path to correcting personal awards is through local commands, it's a data entry issue - i.e. people are involved in both entering the awards and filling in the DD214 and they do not say which one is incorrect). We do know that no one has filed a correction to the DD214. --DHeyward (talk) 02:41, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

The quote is indeed on the page of the 1st link, the Military.com link. The person quoted is from Navy Personnel Command. And you're still engaged in unsourced claims, which at best are unsourced WP:OR and at worst are outright misrepresentation. Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz (talk) 02:56, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Nope. Quote isn't on military.com link either. Spokesman says "official military personnel file" (see DD Form 214 for explanation of OMPF and DD214) and "central official awards records" (NDAWS and derivatives) to be authoritative. One is not more than the other and whatever they have has not initiated a DD215. You are synthesizing a distinction between the DD214 and the OMPF which the Navy did not do and does not exist. We have multiple sources that outline the "capstone" role the DD214 plays in the "official military personnel file" and they are not distinct entities for discharged service members. Read our DD Form 214 article for more info as well as the external sources. The Navy has acknowledged a discrepancy between the OMPF and NDAWS - which are the two authoritative sources. That's all they have said - the two authoritative systems disagree. Both have a human element of entry with regard to personal awards such as Silver Stars and per your source, 20% are not entered into the awards system because they are classified and held at the local command. That local command uses the original citation for award counts for the DD214 and OMPF but battle details are not included (hey, that's in our article too - you really should read it). Corrections for personal awards always start at the unit regardless of whether it's DD214 or awards database because the unit controls and is responsible for both. The single OIC command person in charge of accuracy signed the DD214 as being accurate. --DHeyward (talk) 09:54, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Since you are ignoring policy and now have crossed into the direct line of incredibly uncivil behavior by accusing me of fabricating a quote, see below. It is clear you have no clue about military procedure. Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz (talk) 11:56, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

This back-and-forth is all something of a red herring. Wikipedia isn't the place where we prove or disprove whether a DD214, the OMPF, NDAWS or some other acronym is the authoritative, infallible record. We simply report The Intercept article, and we report the reactions to that article. End of. Their investigation may at some future point be shown to be incorrect, at which point we report that. The controversy is notable, having attracted huge media interest and discussion. Neither the Navy nor the DoD have officially stated that The Intercept is wrong. There are however at least 2 on the record statements from Navy officials to the effect that Chris Kyle's DD214 - whether because of secret citations, human error or otherwise - differs from their centralised database. It isn't our role to investigate why that has happened, or which database is the "capstone". And that's that. No value judgments necessary, no allegations of "spitting on corpses" and "stolen valor", all of which generates more heat than light. Keri (talk) 10:38, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

No, the Navy said no such thing. They said their two sources for records differed. Inferring the DD214 is not a centralized record is not stated by anyone. Not even The Intercept. Read it again with the perspective of what the two records are and it's clear they are only saying their two sources for official records differ. That's it. No value judgments necessary. One official record says X, the other says Y. And no, we don't have to report anything from a single source in a news cycle that only brings heat and no light. We are not news. No other source has written any of this in their own voice. --DHeyward (talk) 13:28, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

The piece by The Intercept was investigative journalism. It has become the subject of reportage by multiple other news agencies. So yes, we write about that. You state, "No, the Navy said no such thing. They said their two sources for records differed." Er, I stated, "There are however at least 2 on the record statements from Navy officials to the effect that Chris Kyle's DD214.[..] differs from their centralised database..." Are you being deliberately obtuse? You state, "Inferring the DD214 is not a centralized record is not stated by anyone." Er, the Navy have said otherwise: "But multiple Navy officials who spoke with Military.com said they now consider the documents on file with Navy Personnel command to be the most accurate record of Kyle's combat awards. "The Navy considers the individual service member's official military personnel file and our central official awards records to be the authoritative sources for verifying entitlement to decorations and awards," Navy Personnel Command spokesman Cullen James said in a statement provided to Military.com. "The form DD-214 is generated locally at the command where the service member is separated. Although the information on the DD-214 should match the official records, the process involves people and inevitably some errors may occur."" Clearly a case of Wikipedia:I just don't like it and WP:ICANTHEARYOU. Keri (talk) 14:19, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

No, WP:COMPETENCEISREQUIRED. As has been cited multiple times above, both the DD-214 (DD Form 214 and personal awards like the Silver Star originate at the local level. Once completed, the local level is supposed to update NDAWS and also forward the DD214 to the central records where it is distributed to numerous agencies. It's like politics: it's all local except for non-personal awards taht generally rely on dates and deployments (i.e. GWOT, Iraq campaign medal, etc) . Yes, the DD214 awards in the central personnel file should match the awards in the central awards database. They don't. Nobody diputes that. The USA Today story ran a week before The Intercept, noted over 100 Silver Stars awarded to Navy SEALs that are not recorded under a name in Big Navy database. SEALs don't want to be on the internet and they will be if they are recorded in the awards database - you can find one of Kyle's Silver Star citations and its pretty obvious why someone that killed nearly 100 people in one operation might not want his name asssociated with details. The DD214 only lists the number of awards, not combat details. Please read the sources provided that show how to correct errors in personal awards like the Silver Star. Whether it's missing in the DD214 or whether it's not in the awards database, the place to correct it is with the local command where the award was earned because they are both locally generated and locally corrected. The coverage has been coverage of The Intercept, not independently verified. I agree it's notable coverage but the conclusions being drawn from the the Intercept are much too strong. It is much too strong a conclusion to say only the DD214 could be in error. It is erroneous to say that awards are central but the DD214 is not. It's even more puzzling to disassociate the DD214 from the OMPF (see DD Form 214 article as to why that is so). The Intercept was very careful in how they quoted so that it was always "true" but also left implications that are clearly not true. Currently there are only two central records, the OMPF which is dominated by the DD214 and the award database. The OMPF conflicts with the award database. That is all the Navy spokesperson said. He was quoted on details of how the DD214 was generated but curiously absent was a quote on the description of how personal awards are entered. Ask why they would leave out that bit - does their article explain how awards are entered? Seems an important detail - unless it doesn't match the new style of commentary journalism. The Intercept was very careful indeed to create an impression rather than an unbiased investigative report. --DHeyward (talk) 20:07, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

With regard to the medal count in the infobox, I propose that we assume the status quo ante bellum, with the proviso that the dispute is clearly discussed in the body of the article. Does it belong in the lead? Per the Manual of Style/Lead section, "It should identify the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies" (my emphasis), of which this is clearly one. Keri (talk) 11:29, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Keri's proposal seems fine to me. Jauerback^dude?/_dude. 14:43, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Agreed. We can also add a note following the medal count mentioning that it was disputed. –Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 17:35, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I think the medal count needs removal for now, if nobody can come to a consensus. The Navy's statement on the authoritative source is clear, but we're getting nowhere with at least two editors declaring they WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT and what apparently is an organized sockpuppet campaign that was planned to coincide with the unprotection. Include a section that it's in dispute, describe the dispute, but don't put the medal counts or images/table on the page since it's just inviting more of the vandalism. Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz (talk) 17:42, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, actually, remove the edit count. That is what they do with birth dates. –Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 17:56, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

References

I'm not interested in this anymore. There's been edit warring, personal attacks, lying, offsite canvassing, bad faith disruptive editing, and blatant POV pushing. I've got better things to do than worry about this. Keri (talk) 18:27, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Quote

Big Problem - DHeyward has now TWICE accused me of fabricating a quote. This is highly uncivil and cannot stand uncorrected. I am including the screenshot of the quote in question.

Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz (talk) 11:53, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

the DD-214 is not authoritative is not a quote or even interpretation of what the Navy spokesperson said. Stop repeating it as a quote. --DHeyward (talk) 13:28, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

What part of Although the information on the DD-214 should match the official records, the process involves people and inevitably some errors may occur are you somehow unable or deliberately trying to avoid understanding, DHeyward? Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz (talk) 14:25, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

(EC) PVJ, this is my third warning to you stop stop accusing DHeywared of being uncivil towards you when he's not. It is not uncivil to be told that you're wrong. DHeyward is correct, the quote does not say that the "DD 214 is not authoritative". The quote says "the individual service member's official military personal file", when in fact, the DD 214 is a huge part of a of that file. Jauerback^dude?/_dude. 14:37, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Arbitrary break II

Tired of weeding through the accusations and warnings, I'm starting another subsection. I have changed the article back to what has been the long-standing status quo. The reverted-out content was sourced unreliably and was borne out of contentious edit warring. It's good that we are trying to build consensus, but because of the out of control bad faith accusations taking place here and elsewhere on talk pages, I think it's time for a neutral RfC on this. I will put one together later today with the intent of getting more eyes and opinions and, hopefully, a solution/true consensus. -- WV ● ✉ ✓

STRENUOUSLY OBJECT To Winkelvi's highly inappropriate actions, especially given his admission of POV collusion and intent by Winkelvi and Dheyward to resume edit warring on DHeyward's talk page. Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz (talk) 16:48, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

You start from a false assumption: "The reverted-out content was sourced unreliably". That isn't correct. The reverted content was a piece of investigative journalism that is being rejected by some people because they don't like it. Keri (talk) 16:50, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

I suppose some would also consider the National Enquirer investigative journalism. The fact remains, however, that the source quoted is quite biased, selective in its reporting, uses unnamed sources. That's actually dubious journalism and, therefore, is not eligible to be considered a reliable source for citing purposes in Wikipedia. And, no, as you have accused me below, it's not an attemp to derail anything. The finger pointing and bad faith accusations here really need to stop. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 17:00, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

That's not what WP:RS says. Whether or not the National Enquirer or some other source initiates the story, once reliable sources confirm and report on it, it is reliably sourced - for instance, the Enquirer broke the story on the John Edwards extramarital affair.

Further, the WP:RS sources are valid for statements made by official Navy representatives, such as those by Navy Personnel Command. Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz (talk) 17:06, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Also, this is a blatant attempt to derail and bypass the discussion above where consensus was forming (see eg Jauerback's comment). Keri (talk) 16:53, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Indeed. Blatantly so. Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz (talk) 17:06, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Off site relevant info

This link is off-topic and potentially WP:OUTING. If this is a true concern, please email an administrator. Mr Ernie (talk) 18:03, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
See https://www.facebook.com/170618779953242/permalink/170621893286284/ Someone with a last name of Heyward asked people there to edit this article. It's probably where the IP vandals came from. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.87.120.121 (talk) 14:29, 2 June 2016 (UTC) Link does not work for me, do you have a screenshot or some evidence? Samuel.farrell31 (talk) 14:30, 2 June 2016 (UTC) Same issue as Samuel. –Compassionate727 (T·C) 14:33, 2 June 2016 (UTC) The link has been made private or deleted, I guess. AFAIK FB doesn't allow caching. It is certainly a disturbing development if true. Keri (talk) 14:45, 2 June 2016 (UTC) The page is a veterans' group called "Oath Keepers". Keri (talk) 14:50, 2 June 2016 (UTC) This discussion needs to end, now. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 15:07, 2 June 2016 (UTC) If stealth canvassing has occurred/is occurring, it's relevant to the discussion. Keri (talk) 15:47, 2 June 2016 (UTC) It's an unproven, unsubstantiated accusation against a specific editor. There's no proof, just finger pointing. Nothing can be proven, no good can come of this. It needs to stop, now. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 18:03, 2 June 2016 (UTC) I went back to get a screenshot and it looks like the poster deleted it probably because they saw it noted here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.87.120.121 (talk) 15:32, 2 June 2016 (UTC) No, I don't have facebook page with last name of Heyward. No, I don't recruit people to Wikipedia. No, I am not a member of "Oath Keepers" or any other group. This and the bogus sock puppet report along with aspersions of wrongdoing is getting old. --DHeyward (talk) 23:27, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Recruiting on Facebook

This link is also off-topic and potentially WP:OUTING. If this is a true concern, please email an administrator.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Someone is recruiting people to edit this page on Facebook. http://www.facebook.com/groups/1662341513996585/permalink/1777899455777223 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.232.126.13 (talk) 23:23, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Oath Keeper recruiting FB again

Another attempt at outing and taking things way off topic - email an administrator if you feel your concern is legitimate
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
www.facebook.com/groups/170618779953242/permalink/171617783286575/ Wikipedia won't let me copy a screenshot into the editor so here's the copied text June 2, 2016 Wikipedia is holding a vote on hero Chris Kyle American Sniper's medals. Bookmark http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Kyle and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Chris_Kyle. The page is admin only now but it will be released tomorrow. Don't let the libtards steal the valor of a true American Hero. The talk page is there so you can tell the libtards what you think of them trying to defame a hero. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.87.121.25 (talk) 14:45, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Yet more edit warring...

@Jauerback:, after making threats above, why are you edit warring without consensus? The book is known to be unreliable. Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz (talk) 17:54, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

• That doesn't look like edit warring to me. It looks like adding information that is supported by reliable sources. Mr Ernie (talk) 17:59, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

1. I have made no threats. 2. You really need to start reading policies before you go throwing around. Please actually read what an WP:EDITWAR is. 3. That is not an established fact. Even if it is, see WP:NOTTRUTH. Jauerback^dude?/_dude. 18:03, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Chris Kyle medals RfC

How should the current news story regarding the question over Kyle's awards be presented in the article?

• via news reports mirroring The Interceptor, an online unreliable source;
• via the notation in Kyle's autobiography in addition to other reliable sources based on his DD-214.

-- WV ● ✉ ✓ 18:07, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Option 2

• Support Wikipedia is not news and we use reliable sources only. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 18:07, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
• Support per WP:NOTNEWS. Let the news agencies present the news, and when the story has been clarified and verified, we can update our article. Mr Ernie (talk) 18:08, 3 June 2016 (UTC)
• Not only oppose, point out that the language of this laughable RfC is completely dishonest and that it's posted in bad faith, per Keri.

QUOTE:"it is one of the worst examples of biased push-polling I have ever seen, saying that the choice is between "an online unreliable source" (false) or "the notation in Kyle's autobiography [a primary source, containing several disputed claims] in addition to other reliable sources based on his DD-214" [stated by the Navy as potentially inaccurate]." Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz (talk) 00:32, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

Discussion

I started this RfC because the current discussion was going nowhere. Not to mention all of the bad faith accusations, edit warring, and poor attitudes being bandied about that makes it difficult to weed through and get to the meat of the issue. This should get more eyes and opinions in an orderly fashion, and hopefully, a true consensus. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 18:09, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

There is a discussion above where consensus is being formed. This RfC is in bad faith and an attempt to ignore that discussion and should be struck. Keri (talk) 18:12, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Furthermore, it is one of the worst examples of biased push-polling I have ever seen, saying that the choice is between "an online unreliable source" (false) or "the notation in Kyle's autobiography [a primary source, containing several disputed claims] in addition to other reliable sources based on his DD-214" [stated by the Navy as potentially inaccurate]. Keri (talk) 18:17, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

I'm AFGing the hell out both sides here. I think the RFC was done in good faith, but needs some work and probably a bit early. Having said that, I tend to agree with Keri. It doesn't matter whether The Interceptor is a reliable source or not, because it's reporting has been covered by reliable sources. So, The Interceptor itself doesn't have to be even mentioned, but the controversy can be mentioned using those other sources. Jauerback^dude?/_dude. 18:32, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

This is not only a contentious issue, it's a huge issue that needs more eyes and opinions from more editors. Which is another reason why I started this RfC (see my other reasons above). And yes, done totally in good faith. Given the weight of this issue across three separate projects, it needs to be considered and commented on by more than those choosing to edit war, make completely bad faith accusations (including sock puppetry and meat puppetry), and log out to do both as IPs. It wasn't going to stop (obviously), and I felt an RfC was a good, productive answer to a growing problem, Jauerback. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 18:39, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

@Keri: The Navy did not say that any particular aspect of the two official records they have may be more or less accurate than any other. "The Intercept" formed only the DD214 conclusion but it's not supported by the actual quotes. It did receive substantial secondary coverage but that coverage was on The Intercept and the The Intercepts conclusions, not independent coverage. Second, the published autobiography with a co-author is not a primary source, it is a WP:SECONDARY secondary as it has been through editorial review and vetting by the publisher, the co-author as well as review for accuracy by the Navy (the Navy forced redactions of details, including the names, places, operations, confirmed kills, etc as some of those details are classified or revealed more information than SEALs wanted revealed- yes, his confirmed kills of 160 or so is understated because the Navy classified some of the missions where he had more. He carefully states that throughout his book that the number is from the Navy). The book is not necessarily independent of the subject but it is still a secondary source as the co-author interviewed third parties and formed analysis in addition to the review process above. --DHeyward (talk) 20:38, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Here's a new source[5] and another[6] that is an interview with the co-author.

References

The problem with parsing the Navy spokesperson's quotes that are pretty general about the process into a specific argument against Kyles DD214 is lack of knowledge. If it was the IRS that said "We use Tax Returns and W-2s as our authoritative reference for income" and then said "Form 1040 is filled out by taxpayers and there are people involved." - Most would understand that "Tax Return" and "1040" are the same thing and it would a far-fetched conclusion to say the "The 1040 Form doesn't match the official Tax Return or the official W-2." Also, it doesn't mean the W-2 is not filled out by hand and not prone to similar errors. The meaning of those quotes would lead people familiar with U.S. taxes to conclude the Tax Return is Form 1040 and it does not match the W-2 without a conclusion about which is correct and wouldn't think to separate the Form 1040 from the Tax Return as separate. Finally, W-2s and tax returns are sent to the IRS so the return and W-2 are centrally located. The DD Form 214 is not separable from OMPF. It is centrally filed. What's missing, without explanation, is a quote from the Navy spokesperson about how personal awards are entered. The answer is they are locally generated records by the same command that would generate the DD214. Both are then forwarded to their respective repositories. People are involved in both processes. Errors can exist in both award database and OMPF regarding personal awards. The starting process for correcting is identical: contact the local command to correct it. The awards database is easy to correct, the DD214 is a pain but that's a process issue as the award database doesn't affect anything. The SEAL community does not like the awards database because it contains too much operational details unless the citation is heavily redacted. They don't want their name associated with actions regardless of whether the operation was classified or not. It's the meaning of "quiet professionals." It's why there are 100's of Silver Star awards to Navy SEALs that are not in the database and associated with a service members name. --DHeyward (talk) 20:38, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

And we get another round of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT and not-even-WP:OR-because-that-would-imply-someone-did-more-than-make-dishonest-stuff-up from the one most likely to be involved in WP:CANVAS activities offsite. This is ridiculous. Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz (talk) 00:33, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

Also @DHeyward: seriously, READ the WP:RS policy already. An "interview with the co-author" is not a reliable source for claims of supposed facts; neither is something in an opinion column / blogging area. Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz (talk) 00:40, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

Canvassing template

I don't know who put it there originally, but a template claiming "There have been attempts to recruit editors of specific viewpoints to this article" has been added to this talk page. There is no evidence of this happening except for an anonymous IP (that has now been rangeblocked for disruptive editing) trying to out editors by claiming there has been canvassing on Facebook. There is no evidence that anyone from Wikipedia has done any off-Wiki canvassing, there is no evidence that anyone has been recruited to edit in a non-POV manner. The template is inappropriate and needs to be removed. I have attempted to do so twice, and another editor has replaced it both times. Not sure what to do at this point and I really don't want to have to go to any kind of noticeboard. Helpful comments, thoughts, advice, action from someone else would be welcomed, from my standpoint. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 00:54, 4 June 2016 (UTC)

It was placed by Keri and after going away for an afternoon with my girlfriend only to come back and find this crazy mess, I think it needs to stay. It is 100% appropriate given the speed with which IP POV-pushing followed your inappropriate and disruptive editing minutes after the page protection expired. Prostetnic Vogon Jeltz (talk) 01:18, 4 June 2016 (UTC)