Talk:Falun Gong

Jimmy Wales' words

"Although Wikipedia is accessible in China, certain pages are filtered. Nobel peace prize recipient Liu Xiaobo and dissident artist Ai Weiwei's pages were blocked by Chinese authorities. Events like the Tiananmen Square riots or religious cults like Falun Gong cannot be openly discussed online in China." https://www.vice.com/read/wikipedia-founders-uncompromising-stance-on-censorship-and-users-privacy Here Jimmy was criticizing the Chinese communist government. The word cult has quite different meanings and has no negative implications in Jimmy's line. if someone wants to refer Jimmy"s words, it has to reflect the line, and should not be only one word. Marvin 2009 (talk) 00:44, 17 June 2016 (UTC)

How do you know the word "Religious cults" has no negative meaning? I described the fact, I did not say anything about whether "Religious cults" has any negative or positive meaning.--Raintwoto 12:06, 18 June 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Raintwoto (talk • contribs)

Jimmy was criticizing the Chinese communist government, which was the context when he mentioned FG. But User:Raintwoto added the word "however" in his editing. It added a negative implication to the page. Marvin 2009 (talk) 14:43, 18 June 2016 (UTC)

OK, I will delete the word "however". I will let the reader decide what does it mean. --Raintwoto 17:23, 18 June 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Raintwoto (talk • contribs)

On what basis have you decided that an incidental mention from a non-expert on this topic should be included in the lead section of the article?TheBlueCanoe 05:07, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

Because he is the co-founder of Wikipedia?--Raintwoto 21:07, 20 June 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Raintwoto (talk • contribs)

That is irrelevant for our purposes.TheBlueCanoe 01:34, 21 June 2016 (UTC)

I would like to make it very clear that my thoughts, words, and opinions on this matter are of no relevance for this article. I am not an expert on Falun Gong nor cults, nor are my opinions of such things (expert or not) generally encyclopedic, i.e. I am not an anti-cult activist or anything of the sort which would give my words particular interest to Wikipedia editors in this context.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 07:24, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

Well said. Thanks for clarifying.TheBlueCanoe 15:39, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

Actually, it's not well said. Wikipedia has no policy to allow for the speakers of outside quotations to come here and tell Wikipedians whether their comment is suitable or not as a reliable source for what they were quoted as saying! If we had that policy, then Green Party candidate, Alan Saldanha, who resigned after making a rape comment on Facebook, could just tell us that his Facebook comments are not relevant in Controversies in the Canadian federal election, 2011. Or Matt Selman could contact us and say that his comments about East St. Louis are not relevant in They Saved Lisa's Brain. Stop paying so much deference to Jimmy Wales, that his word is Gospel, just because he helped Larry Sanger set up Wikipedia! - 208.54.90.142 (talk) 13:49, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

The proposal to include Wales' description was premised on the (mistaken) notion that his comments have encyclopedic merit for no other reason than that he co-founded Wikipedia. You're arguing that co-founding Wikipedia does not make a person's opinions relevant. I think we've arrived at the same place. TheBlueCanoe 14:45, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

Here, do we agree that the conclusion is add Wale's word in "International reception" instead of in the first paragraph?Raintwoto 21:44, 3 July 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Raintwoto (talk • contribs)

Sources

TheBlueCanoe Last time I was asked for secondary sources instead of primary. I provided them. Is another problem being manufactured?Rajmaan (talk) 04:38, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

I don't recall that. See my comments here. The issue was not limited to an over-reliance on primary sources (you cited TIME Magazine on both occasions, unless I'm mistaken). Instead it was one of figuring out how to accord the right amount of weight to these issues in relation to other aspects of the doctrine, and how to contextualize them, etc. We actually did use your edits as impetus to come up with a solution, and the page includes a discussion of supernatural abilities. It seems you were MIA for that part of the discussion.TheBlueCanoe 04:57, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

i think they (ie secondary sourceS) may actually be, rajmaan, given the policy on WP:PRIMARY. the idea is that we cannot use primary sources to make a point we want to make. for example that falun gong religious beliefs are funny or silly because there are aliens and stuff. i might agree, but actually we would need to find a chinese religious scholar who can explain what role these thoughts have in the flg doctrinal system. we can't just pick something and stick it in because it sounds ridiculous. that's my understanding of the policy anyway. others can correct me if i'm wrong. i just took a look at david ownby's book on google books and it only seems to mention aliens twice, in passing.Happy monsoon day 04:31, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

There is no discussion of aliens and views towards technology and science on the page. And what constitutes tendentious edits are using Falun Gong run media and representing them as third party RS by failing to mention their provenance in the article.Rajmaan (talk) 05:19, 30 June 2016 (UTC)

There seems to be a sudden lack of disinterest in discussion when reliable secondary sources are provided on Falun Gong's hostile positoin towards modern western science and their belief that it comes from aliens- the article as it stands now currently presents Falun Gong's anti-science views as CCP propaganda, when I provided reliable secondary sources from scholars and primary sources from Falun Gong themselves on their belief that science was created by aliens to subvert humanity. It seems as if the page is being whitewashed and sanitized by these people User:Colipon has discussed User:Colipon/Falun Gong.Rajmaan (talk) 22:11, 2 July 2016 (UTC)

Here's the thing: there have been many discussions before about whether belief in aliens should be on this page, and each time, it comes down to a question of due weight. The extraterrestrial issue is apparently a very insignificant aspect of the belief system. It’s curious that the editors who insist on aliens being mentioned don’t make the same demands for other aspects of the doctrine that feature far more prominently in both the primary and secondary literature, such as its discussions of spiritual anatomy, the structure of the universe, the concepts and implications of inborn quality, the evolution of Buddhism, forms of enlightenment, art and aesthetics, and so on.

Moreover, everyone who proposes the inclusion of the alien material does so because they think it reflects poorly on Falun Gong. That is, they don't make arguments about its encyclopedic value—they argue that it's important because it makes Falun Gong look bad. You seem to be no exception. Given some of your previous edits to this page[1], it's not clear that you're actually here to build an encyclopedia.

Anyway, I'm not opposed in principle to elaborating a bit more about Falun Gong's views of and relationship to modern science in a way that observes principles of neutrality and balance.TheBlueCanoe 00:11, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

It wouldn't have been a question of due weight if the article at present wasn't trying to falsely present Falun Gong's very well soured anti-science views as CCP propaganda. The propaganda campaign focused on allegations that Falun Gong jeopardized social stability, was deceiving and dangerous, was "anti-science" and threatened progress. The article as of now is claiming that Falun Gong's views on science are either CCP propaganda or as stemming from "traditional Chinese cultural thought" and "traditional Chinese medicine". This is NPOV and unbalanced. It says nothing about the fact that Falun Gong is anti science because it believes Aliens created modern science and use it to subvert humans and therefore by deliberate omission presents it as either traditional Chinese views or CCP propaganda. Either delete the cited passages or mention the aliens to restore balance and due weight.

You support the inclusion of Falun Gong's own newspaper Epoch Times as an RS without indicating it is pro Falun Gong in Falun Gong related articles. In other words, things that you think makes Falun Gong looks bad gets deleted by you regardless of encyclopedic value while Falun Gong sources can be used if they make Falun Gong's opponents look bad.

User:Marvin 2009 very closely resembles those SPA accounts described by Colipon and its fascinating how STSC gets reported for arbitration and topic banning while Marvin 2009 is somehow still free to edit Falun Gong articles and no one has spoke out against his edits. His entire account is literally dedicated to defending Falun Gong. It appears that these SPAs are gaming the system and playing good cop and bad cop with some appearing to be more overtly neutral than others and editing unrelated topics occasionally to pretend not to be an SPA, while hovering around the Falun Gong article. In the talk page archives there were editors like Ohconfucius and Colipon who are critical of the CCP and didn't let that get in the way of confronting Falun Gong SPAs trying to whitewash the article until the deluge of SPAs got them banned by arbitration and apparently pro Falun Gong SPAs are given free reign over the article.Rajmaan (talk) 06:08, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

I did edit other pages, like 2008 Sichuan earthquake etc. However i came across some users who seem to be dedicated to provide false info to Wikipedia articals, especially FG related articles, I had to explain again and again what they put in the related pages are just opposite to the sources they provided. Otherwise I could have had more time for editing other pages. User:Rajmaan seems to be such a user. This time User:Rajmaan added the line "Li claimed that his teachings can be used to halt fast cars in addition to curing illness" in the at least two articles again. But in my response to Rajmaan last November , I made it very clear that according to the Time report Mr. Li simply WON'T cure illnesses and Mr. Li claimed that his teachings can NOT be used to halt fast cars. I do not understand how could User:Rajmaan keep adding entirely false and opposite meaning into the pages. Marvin 2009 (talk) 18:59, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

Your edits on other articles like 2008 Sichuan earthquake are all dedicated to pushing an anti-CCP viewpoint, the same viewpoint aggressively propagated by the Falun Gong. I edit other articles which have nothing to do with Falun Gong and the CCP. Your edits are openly pro Falun Gong and anti CCP. You even cited a Falun Gong source (NTDTV) on the 2008 Sichuan earthquake article.Rajmaan (talk) 01:38, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

Regarding the Time report, so now you agreed that you should not put the false info in the articles? Finally, that is a progress. Hope you won't add those inaccurate stuff again after a while. As to the earthquake article, I am not like you and have no bias to NTDTV. I added other sources and as well as one NTDTV source. I do not think it is a Falun Gong source. Minghui website could be considered as a Falun Gong source. NTDTV is quite different. Marvin 2009 (talk) 02:03, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

No material proof was provided of changed wording from the TIME article. A claim was made and wasn't backed up. You should understand people have a very hard time believing pro Falun Gong SPA accounts and taking their words when they provide no sources or evidence. NTDTV was founded and is run by Falun Gong members and is pro Falun Gong and anti CCP. The vast majority of your edits are dedicated to sanitizing Falun Gong's image and attacking the CCP.Rajmaan (talk) 02:26, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

I provided you the evidence at least twice. What you wrote in the article is just the opposite to the source. According to the Time report Mr. Li simply WON'T cure illnesses and Mr. Li claimed that his teachings can NOT be used to halt fast cars. Have you ever read the Time report you sourced??? The simple fact whether the Time report said this or just the opposite is not dependent on whether i am a SPA account or not. Why do you continue to post your false and fake info and put a label on me? As to what you said about NTDTV is anti CCP and a Falun Gong media. I do not think i agree with you on this. I noticed NTDTV has programs that disclosed CCP nature, but this does not necessarily mean NTDTV is anti ccp. For example, i disclosed the quote you referred from the Time is not accurate and has just the opposite meaning to the info in the sourced report. This does not mean i am anti Rajmaan:) I just want to clarify the basic facts from the report you sourced! NTDTV is not deserved to be called anti CCP by disclosing CCP nature. Yes, NTDTV may have FG practitioners as their staff members. This is not equivalent to your statement NTDTV is Falun Gong media either. For example, it is said that NewYork Times has many Christians as their staff members, but NewYork times does not represent Christians' view and is not a Christian newspaper. Marvin 2009 (talk) 02:55, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

Claims with no evidence

Falun Gong practitioners in China are reportedly subject to a wide range of human rights abuses: hundreds of thousands are estimated to have been imprisoned extrajudicially, and practitioners in detention are subject to forced labor, psychiatric abuse, torture, and other coercive methods of thought reform at the hands of Chinese authorities. As of 2009, human rights groups estimated that at least 2,000 Falun Gong practitioners had died as a result of abuse in custody.[4] Some observers put the number much higher, and report that tens of thousands may have been killed to supply China's organ transplant industry.[5][6] In the years since the persecution began, Falun Gong practitioners have become active in advocating for greater human rights in China.

However, these claims have no evidence at all and I think we should delete it. You can read the US congress report:

https://file.wikileaks.org/file/crs/RL33437.pdf

1. In March 2006, U.S. Falun Gong representatives claimed that thousands of practitioners had been sent to 36 concentration camps throughout the PRC. According to their allegations, at one such site in Sujiatun, near the city of Shenyang, a hospital has been used as a detention center for 6,000 Falun Gong prisoners, three-fourths of whom are said to have been killed and had their organs harvested for profit. American officials from the U.S. Embassy in Beijing and the U.S. consulate in Shenyang visited the area as well as inspected the hospital on two occasions and “found no evidence that the site is being used for any function other than as a normal public hospital.”
2. Falun Gong adherents detained there, three-fourths allegedly had their organs removed and then were cremated or never seen again.24 American officials from the U.S. Embassy in Beijing and the U.S. consulate in Shenyang visited the area as well as the hospital site on two occasions — the first time unannounced and the second with the cooperation of PRC officials — and after investigating the facility “found no evidence that the site is being used for any function other than as a normal public hospital.”25 Amnesty International spokespersons have stated that the claims of systematic organ harvesting of Falun Gong practitioners cannot be confirmed or denied.
3. Since 2001, Falun Gong plaintiffs have filed several lawsuits in federal courts claiming that the PRC officials in the United States have been responsible for dozens of isolated incidents of physical and verbal harassment, eavesdropping, and destruction of property of Falun Gong adherents and supporters in the United States. However, plaintiffs often have possessed little evidence of direct involvement by the Chinese government in the alleged incidents. PRC consular officials deny participation in such criminal activity in the United States and claim that they are entitled to diplomatic immunity. In November 2002, the Circuit Court of Cook County charged a PRC immigrant with battery for having physically assaulted a Falun Gong hunger striker in front of the Chinese Consulate in Chicago in September 2001.39 In February 2005, Falun Gong members in the United States reported that a coordinated, world-wide campaign (in over 20 countries) of telephone harassment against them had taken place.40 This telephone harassment allegedly consisted of pre-recorded anti-Falun Gong messages in both English and Chinese, some purportedly originating in China.

Raintwoto 20:06, 3 July 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Raintwoto (talk • contribs)

There's plenty of evidence for this claim, nearly all of it published after the U.S. embassy report you cited.TheBlueCanoe 20:45, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

Could you cite the evidence? I did not find any hard evidence except the statements. I would like to know what are the evidence...Raintwoto 21:28, 3 July 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Raintwoto (talk • contribs)

Refer to the footnotes in Organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners in China.TheBlueCanoe 22:05, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

"Although the pair were denied visas to travel to China, they nonetheless compiled over 30 distinct strands of evidence which were consistent with allegations of organ harvesting from Falun Gong practitioners." This is absurd.....How is this possible????? Raintwoto (talk) 22:18, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

Still... no evidence.... Only indirect evidence suggested that there is illegal organ transplants in China... No hard evidence at all about these organs are from Falun Gong practitioner (except the statements from Falun Gong).Raintwoto (talk) 22:23, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

@TheBlueCanoe:,

1. Raintwoto discussed with me in ZH-Wikipedia. He cited the US Congress 2006 report after Sujiatun. While after 2006's Independent Investigation by David Matas, the US Congress, UN, and some countries also gave new Reports about it. I've told to Raintwoto and gave him the link of 2012 US-Congrass Update Report.
2. David Matas's NEW VERSION REPORT(2016.6) also afforded to Raintwoto, So many evidences inside the 800 pages. But Raintwoto denied read the Evidence inside, still said "where is evidence".Wetrace (talk) 22:32, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

1. They are very different reports... it is not the new report.... One is from US congress (who actually went to Sujiatun) and one is by two politicians (who actually did not go to China at all).... I don't understand how could you write this kind of report without actually going to the place?Raintwoto (talk) 22:38, 3 July 2016 (UTC)
2. I asked you for any hard evidence (not statements)... but you can not give me even one......Raintwoto (talk) 22:38, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

The statements by US-Congress, EU-Parliament, U.N. Committee Against Torture, are made after they read the Kilgour-Matas report and other works. U.N. Committee Against Torture asked CN-GOV to reply the Report for several yeas, while CN-GOV failed.Wetrace (talk) 22:48, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

Are you saying that actually the only people who went to Sujiatun said there's no evidence for Falun gong (2006 US congress report) and everyone else who did not go to Sujiatun at all (The statements by US-Congress, EU-Parliament, U.N. Committee Against Torture) says that there's evidence? Raintwoto (talk) 23:04, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

The founder of Falun Gong believe that aliens invaded earth

I think we should add this interesting evidence from the interview of the Founder Li Hongzhi in Time.

http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2053761,00.html

TIME: Why does chaos reign now?

TIME: Why does chaos reign now? Li: Of course there is not just one reason. The biggest cause of society's change today is that people no longer believe in orthodox religion. They go to church, but they no longer believe in God. They feel free to do anything. The second reason is that since the beginning of this century, aliens have begun to invade the human mind and its ideology and culture.

TIME: Where do they come from? Li: The aliens come from other planets. The names that I use for these planets are different . Some are from dimensions that human beings have not yet discovered. The key is how they have corrupted mankind. Everyone knows that from the beginning until now, there has never been a development of culture like today. Although it has been several thousand years, it has never been like now.

The aliens have introduced modern machinery like computers and airplanes. They started by teaching mankind about modern science, so people believe more and more science, and spiritually, they are controlled. Everyone thinks that scientists invent on their own when in fact their inspiration is manipulated by the aliens. In terms of culture and spirit, they already control man. Mankind cannot live without science.

The ultimate purpose is to replace humans. If cloning human beings succeeds, the aliens can officially replace humans. Why does a corpse lie dead, even though it is the same as a living body? The difference is the soul, which is the life of the body. If people reproduce a human person, the gods in heaven will not give its body a human soul. The aliens will take that opportunity to replace the human soul and by doing so they will enter earth and become earthlings.

When such people grow up, they will help replace humans with aliens. They will produce more and more clones. There will no longer be humans reproduced by humans. They will act like humans, but they will introduce legislation to stop human reproduction.

TIME: Are you a human being? Li: You can think of me as a human being.

TIME: Are you from earth? Li: I don't wish to talk about myself at a higher level. People wouldn't understand it.

TIME: What are the aliens after? Li: The aliens use many methods to keep people from freeing themselves from manipulation. They make earthlings have wars and conflicts, and develop weapons using science, which makes mankind more dependent on advanced science and technology. In this way, the aliens will be able to introduce their stuff and make the preparations for replacing human beings. The military industry leads other industries such as computers and electronics.

TIME: But what is the alien purpose? Li: The human body is the most perfect in the universe. It is the most perfect form. The aliens want the human body.

TIME: What do aliens look like? Li: Some look similar to human beings. U.S. technology has already detected some aliens. The difference between aliens can be quite enormous.

TIME: Can you describe it? Li: You don't want to have that kind of thought in your mind.

TIME: Describe them anyway. Li: One type looks like a human, but has a nose that is made of bone. Others look like ghosts. At first they thought that I was trying to help them. Now they now that I am sweeping them away.,

TIME: How do you see the future? Li: Future human society is quite terrifying. If aliens are not to replace human beings, society will destroy itself on its own. Industry is creating invisible air pollution. The microparticles in the air harm human beings. The abnormality in the climate today is caused by that [pollution], and it cannot be remedied by humans alone. The drinking water is polluted. No matter how we try to purify it, it cannot return to its original purity. Modern science cannot determine the extent of the damage. The food we eat is the product of fertilized soil. The meat we eat is affected. I can foresee a future when human limbs become deformed, the body's joints won't move and internal organs will become dysfunctional. Modern science hasn't realized this yet.

At the beginning you asked why I did such things. I only tell practitioners, but not the public because they cannot comprehend it. I am trying to save those people who can return to a high level and to a high moral level. Modern science does not understand this, so governments can do nothing. The only person in the entire world who knows this is myself alone.

I am not against the public knowing, but I am teaching practitioners. Even though the public knows, it cannot do anything about it. People can't free themselves from science and from their concepts. I am not against science. I am only telling mankind the truth. I drive a car. I also live in the environment. Don't believe that I am against science. But I know that modern science is destroying mankind. Aliens have already constructed a layer of cells in human beings. The development of computers dictates this layer of body cells to control human culture and spirituality and in the end to replace human beings.

Raintwoto 20:09, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

Sigh. Here's another one. This has been discussed and rejected dozens of times before, but no new arguments have been put forward for why this material needs to be mentioned prominently in this article. Li has said lots of things on lots of topics, yet you're not advocating to include all of his other statements on the page. Can you tell us how this is appropriate under the principle of WP:DUE)?TheBlueCanoe 20:45, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

Why not? How many interviews Li has done? I did not find many.... This is so absurd... That's the reason... I don't understand how could Wikipedia ignore such absurd statement....Raintwoto 21:32, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

"Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the main space fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources." I believe that time magazine is reliable source and this is a significant viewpoint since half of the interview is about aliens. Raintwoto 21:36, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

Li has published literally thousands of pages of writings. Books upon books. And in those books, writings about aliens are accorded relatively little importance. Enough to be included in the Teachings of Falun Gong page, perhaps, but not on this page, which is only a summary of the main aspects of the practice and doctrine. A reading of secondary sources (e.g. books on Falun Gong by academics) confirms that aliens are not a focus of the teachings, and in determining how much weight to assign to various issues, we take our lead from those secondary sources. This is how we honor the principle of proportionality. Anyway, you are making my point: the editors who advocate for the inclusion of this material do so because they think it's funny/silly/absurd—not because it is necessary to uphold a neutral point of view.TheBlueCanoe 21:44, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

Li indeed published a lot, but he has not been interviewed a lot. In one of these few interviews, he talked about the aliens in half of the interview. For example, in Isaac Newton, it states that "Beyond his work on the mathematical sciences, Newton dedicated much of his time to the study of biblical chronology andalchemy, but most of his work in those areas remained unpublished until long after his death." in the beginning. Few people actually know that and they are not the main work of Isaac Newton, why should they be there? Because it tells you some information that are true and salient. The aliens stories are the same here. Few people know that Falun gong actually thinks aliens invaded earth and this point is so salient, that's the reason it should be presented here. Raintwoto 21:57, 3 July 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Raintwoto (talk • contribs)

in other words you're saying that the opinion of a wikipedia editor - in this case your good self - should decide questions of wp:due? and that this should not be decided by the experts on the topic? it sounds like you basically think that it's batshit crazy ("so salient") and should be on the page for that reason. I don't think that's how wikipedia works.Happy monsoon day 00:03, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

If the bible says the world is created by aliens, do you think we should add that in the description of the bible? Why about Newton, we talk about his crazy work about the study of biblical chronology andalchemy? How wikipedia works?Raintwoto (talk) 00:24, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

The article currently claims Falun Gong's anti science views stem are either CCP propaganda or stem traditional Chinese medicine and thinking. Seeing as how reliable secondary and primary sources both describe Falun Gong's belief that modern science is an alien tool against humanity there is no reason not to include this in the article as long as science is mentioned there- unless one wants to deliberately mislead and slant the article in an unbalanced, NPOV manner.Rajmaan (talk) 01:42, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

Do we include in the article about the U.S. government that a relatively large number of its former military and security officials have talked about "aliens"? [2] [3] No, because that would be giving undue weight to the subject. It doesn't have a lot to do with the operations of the U.S. government overall. Ditto. The relative weight should be based on reliable academic sources. TheSoundAndTheFury (talk) 03:53, 4 July 2016 (UTC)