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I can see the point of the first graph, but the second one is an odd way to present data for multiple years. It would be helpful to show it in context. [[User:Shock Brigade Harvester Boris|Shock Brigade Harvester Boris]] ([[User talk:Shock Brigade Harvester Boris|talk]]) 00:34, 3 August 2016 (UTC)
I can see the point of the first graph, but the second one is an odd way to present data for multiple years. It would be helpful to show it in context. [[User:Shock Brigade Harvester Boris|Shock Brigade Harvester Boris]] ([[User talk:Shock Brigade Harvester Boris|talk]]) 00:34, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

== Lead section: policy responses ==

I've been thinking of revising the paragraph of the lead that deals with policy responses to global warming. Here's my suggested revision:

:Policy responses to global warming include mitigation by emissions reduction, adaptation to its effects, building systems resilient to its effects, and possible climate engineering. Most countries are parties to the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change (UNFCCC), whose ultimate objective is to prevent dangerous anthropogenic climate change. Parties to the UNFCCC have agreed that deep cuts in emissions are required and that global warming should be limited to well below 2 °C relative to pre-industrial levels, with efforts made to limit the temperature increase to 1.5 °C.

'''References:''' As cited in current revision and [http://unfccc.int/files/essential_background/convention/application/pdf/english_paris_agreement.pdf Paris agreement], Article 2, paragraph 1(a), p.3.

[[User:Enescot|Enescot]] ([[User talk:Enescot|talk]]) 18:39, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

Revision as of 18:39, 6 August 2016

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Featured articleClimate change is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
Main Page trophyThis article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on June 21, 2006.
In the news Article milestones
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Current status: Featured article

Temp conversion error?

I hope i am doing this right. Just passing through, but under section "Initial causes of temperature changes (external forcings)" in the section "Greenhouse gasses", the following line exists:

On Earth, naturally occurring amounts of greenhouse gases have a mean warming effect of about 33 °C (59 °F).

33 Celsius is not 59 Farenheit. I assume its a typo? That should probably be corrected. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.90.209.64 (talk) 03:31, 15 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

A temperature reading of 33 Celsius is not equal to a temperature reading of 59 F, but a temperature difference of 33 C is equal to a temperature difference of about 59 F. Example: A temperature of 10 C corresponds to a temperature of 50 F. Likewise a temperature of 43 C corresponds to a temperature of 109.4 F. The difference between the two is (43 - 10) = 33 in Celsius, or (109.4 - 50) = 59.4 in Fahrenheit. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 04:02, 15 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The wording allowed for some confusion. Changed to:
On Earth, naturally occurring amounts of greenhouse gases have a mean increase in temperature of about 33 °C (59 °F).
--A D Monroe III (talk) 16:22, 21 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Not an improvement. GHGs have a warming effect. They don't have a temperature increase. The (near surface) air temperatures have an increase. TimOsborn (talk) 23:42, 21 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Tim is right. The proposed wording is inaccurate, and doesn't even make physical sense. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 00:03, 22 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, but the issue remains. It implies a temperature, not a temperature difference. We still need something better. Suggestions? --A D Monroe III (talk) 00:05, 22 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'm missing something, because I don't understand how the words "a mean warming effect" imply a temperature. Can you explain so that I can see where the confusion lies? Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 00:34, 22 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This is based on the OP of this discussion. It's not clear to all readers that "warming effect" means "increase in temperature". It's only (more) clear in the statement following noting that Earth would be frozen without it -- an increase of 33 degrees. All I'm asking is for is an improvement in wording to make this obvious. --A D Monroe III (talk) 20:52, 26 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
How about this?
"On Earth, naturally occurring amounts of greenhouse gases cause air temperature near the surface to be about 33 °C (59 °F) warmer than it would be in their absence."
Other suggestions welcome. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 21:32, 26 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
That sounds excellent. Thank you. --A D Monroe III (talk) 16:12, 27 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
After a week with no further suggestions or concerns expressed, I've made that change. Thanks all. --A D Monroe III (talk) 15:20, 5 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 26 June 2016

under the heading "Discourse about global warming" subheading "Scientific discussion", please change "Nearly all scientists agree that humans are contributing to observed climate change" to "Most scientists agree that humans are contributing to observed climate change" because the latter is how it is phrased in the citation used (citation number 89, page 2, beginning of second paragraph). Wikipedia should not make a stronger statement than is supported by its citations.

TeddyW (talk) 18:43, 26 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I have to agree; the cited text says "Most", not "Nearly all". I'll make the change, but leave this request open in case someone else wants to re-word and re-cite based on information from Surveys of scientists' views on climate change. --A D Monroe III (talk) 20:45, 26 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
OK, but "most" is problematic because it implies that the value could be as low as 50.0000001%. It would be nice to find some better sources eventually. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 21:34, 26 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
What happened to the good old "Only a few climate scientists disagree..."?  :) . Count Iblis (talk) 17:15, 27 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I guess until then it should rather be tagged as [weasel words]. -- ChamithN (talk) 17:37, 27 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Done by A D Monroe III ChamithN (talk) 17:40, 27 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It is weaselly, but that's what the source says. This is a technically accurate but poor compromise. There's a lot of more definite statements in Surveys of scientists' views on climate change, but I couldn't find one that summarized well to fit here. Please can others try to improve this? I don't want to be left labeled as a weasel-monger.  :( --A D Monroe III (talk) 14:13, 28 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The sources are rather outdated, but used elsewhere so I've summarised them more accurately: the RS quoted text looked rather like quote mining when seen in context, so I've expanded that a bit. Scientific discussion is essentially in peer reviewed papers, so I've included that in the context of AR5. Hope that helps clarify things a bit. . . dave souza, talk 16:45, 28 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
:) --A D Monroe III (talk) 19:49, 28 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Though all the links above are working, only two were actually modified, and the sixth link isn't even in the article. The bot has been shut down for now while multiple bugs get fixed. — Gorthian (talk) 17:47, 25 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 5 July 2016

I think it should mention about the purple polar bears that are being affected. 86.20.78.92 (talk) 19:14, 5 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The section Global warming#Ecological systems, and a link to Climate change and ecosystems, with mention of polar bears, should suffice. — Andy W. (talk ·ctb) 19:38, 5 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

citation needed: 97 to 100% agreed with the consensus: most of the current warming is anthropogenic

A citation is needed for this statement:

While up to 18% of scientists surveyed might disagree with the consensus view, when restricted to scientists publishing in the field of climate, 97 to 100% agreed with the consensus: most of the current warming is anthropogenic (caused by humans)

the statement is not supported by the provided source. The 18% almost certainly from Doran and Zimmerman "Examining the scientific consensus on climate change" (2009). That same article is also often sourced for a 97% figure, but that 97% did not agree with "most of the current warming is anthopogenic" but instead with "human activity is a significant contributing factor in changing mean global temperatures" Poodleboy (talk) 02:29, 16 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I, for one, would have no problem with changing the wording to match the wording in the book. Rick Norwood (talk) 11:29, 16 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I favor
(A) Delete existing text in this section
(B) Add new text "Multiple assessments of scientists' individual opinions have found that 90-100% of publishing climate scientists agree that humans are causing recent global warming." cite: "Consensus on consensus: a synthesis of consensus estimates on human-caused global warming"
(C) Elaborate in sub article Surveys of scientists' views on climate change
I could live with Rick's suggestion, unlesss someone proposes we use a different source altogether.
NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 14:52, 16 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Prefer NAEG's proposal, with the minor quibble that "..are causing recent global warming" seems like an odd mix of tenses. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 15:18, 16 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Most of the statements in the reply article are far more probabilistic than "causing recent warming", using phrases like "contributing" and "likely". If cause is used it should at best be "a cause". Researchers studying the consensus tend to use phrases and standards which exclude only deniers and not luke warmers. More of the past work can be retained, just by citing and representing the source actually used, Doran and Zimemerman (2009), it is cited in the synthesis article. This text would be an accurate representation of that source: While up to 18% of scientists surveyed might disagree with the consensus view, when restricted to scientists publishing in the field of climate, 97 to 100% agreed human activity is a significant contributing factor to the current warming.Poodleboy (talk) 18:05, 16 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Poodleboy, Doran is a SINGLE taking of scientists' pulse, and its already seven years old. In contrast this new paper reports on MULTIPLE takings of scientists' pulse and is from this year (2016). The rest I ignore for reasons others have already pointed out to you, e.g., WP:FORUM and WP:Original research.NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 20:28, 16 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Boris, I agree its awkward and if we can agree I'd be pleased to alter the wording, which I borrowed from the abstact of the paper. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 20:28, 16 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
NewsAndEventsGuy, most of the studies reviewed in the 2016 rely on their work from before the 2013 publication of IPCC AR5, and the considerable hiatus literature since. Poodleboy (talk) 00:05, 17 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
you are implying hiatus research has altered scientific opinion, but you are not implying the RS on which your theory is predicated. Implied OR is still something I ignore.NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 03:15, 17 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, you implied that time alone made Doran less relevant, I merely pointed out that the 2016 article merely rehashed the authors similarly old results, and that it was more than just time that had passed, a lot of developments in the science had also occurred and the pause had raised questions about the significance of the human contribution in the minds of scientists who are part of the consensus.Poodleboy (talk) 07:09, 17 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Actually that survey of surveys said 'We have shown that the scientific consensus on AGW is robust'. Anyway how about just scientists or climate change scientists rather than scientists who are part of the consensus thanks. The scientific consensus is not an affiliation like a trade union or political parties. Dmcq (talk) 08:52, 17 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"pointing out" things which, accordivng to you, should be taken into accountl is impermissible WP:OR unless you have an RS . Since it is merely your conjecture that scientists opinions have changed I decline to debate the matter further, except to say that at some point repeated OR based argumentation becomes disruptiveNewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 10:24, 17 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I think I can agree with your B text, if you take the 100% down to 97%. The 100% was abstracts not scientists. Agreed? Poodleboy (talk) 11:33, 17 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
B gives a range that does not imply high accuracy. Your suggestion would imply accuracy and at that accuracy would contradict the source. Also you are doing OR again. Dmcq (talk) 17:08, 17 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The text says scientists and the only result higher that 97% is abstracts, that seems a legitimate distinction, there were numbers lower than 90% also that at least involved scientists. The abstracts methodology was always questionable anyway. Is this such a terrible price to pay for consensus? Poodleboy (talk) 20:53, 17 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
We don't second guess and reinterpret papers. The very first line says "The consensus that humans are causing recent global warming is shared by 90%–100% of publishing climate scientists according to six independent studies by co-authors of this paper". If you want to get your ideas into Wikipedia go and write a paper and get it peer reviewed. Do not go about analysing papers and coming up with your own conclusions. It does not say 90%-97%. Go and read WP:OR. Internalize what it says. Stop wasting other peoples' time. Look at the second pillar of WP:5P. It says "Editors' personal experiences, interpretations, or opinions do not belong." Editors doing what you keep trying to do would destroy Wikipedia. Dmcq (talk) 21:19, 17 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Well you know I'm glad to hear that, because my argument is that we shouldn't reinterpret abstracts as scientists. The 100% figure is clearly identified as abstracts. I vote for no reinterpretation. Thou doth protest too much, methinks. Poodleboy (talk) 21:54, 17 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
We do not get to reinterpret the data. You are engaging in disruptive behaviour. It is no excuse that you think you know better than the author what they should have said. Dmcq (talk) 23:57, 17 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Instead of basing new text on the ABSTRACT (my original suggestion) I now think it would be better to base it on the text of the paper's body. The relevant parts might include

From pdf pg1 - Climate scientists overwhelmingly agree that humans are causing recent global warming. The consensus position is articulated by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) statement that ‘human in fluence has been the dominant cause of the observed warming since the mid-20th century.‘

(cite omitted)

From pdf pg 6 - We have shown that the scientific consensus on AGW is robust, with a range of 90%-100% depending on the exact question, timing and sampling methodology. This is supported by multiple independent studies despite variations in the study timing, definition of consensus, or differences in methodology including surveys of scientists, analyses of literature or of citation networks.

NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 23:09, 17 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Basing it on the starts of the introduction and conclusion seems reasonable. Dmcq (talk) 00:02, 18 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't know you were just in the abstract. I was already pointing out that the dependence on the exact question and methodology. But you should keep in mind that the introduction is not a peer review result, the opinion of the authors that the IPCC statement articulates the consensus, is not the conclusion they were able to draw from the methodology they used.Poodleboy (talk) 03:16, 18 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You must realize by now that you are just not able to work in a way that is acceptable to you within the constraints of Wikipedia. You just seem unable to accept that we have to follow the authors rather than doing our own research from their data. They drew the conclusion from the data. The paper was peer reviewed. That is really the end of it. You are just pissing on Wikipedia with your opinions. Your opinion is worthless against a peer reviewed paper. Dmcq (talk) 10:52, 18 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Quit talking about me and talking about the substance. It is not original research to understand the paper, you should try it. "abstracts" are not "scientists" Poodleboy (talk) 11:04, 18 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Reading the papers and understanding them is fine. Putting forth on your own ideas here is not. This is a talk page for improving the article and original thought is not allowed in the article. Please desist from forum type discussions. Talk about your own ideas elsewhere where I'm sure there are lots of people eager to engage with you. Dmcq (talk) 11:27, 18 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Whose idea was it to put "scientists" together with "100%"? Where were you with your WP:OR accusations then? Are you sure you are not WP:POV editing? Do you have the patience required to reach a consensus, you keep mentioning waste of time? Poodleboy (talk) 11:55, 18 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The abstract says 'we'. At the start of the abstract they say 'The consensus that humans are causing recent global warming is shared by 90%–100% of publishing climate scientists according to six independent studies by co-authors of this paper.' I do not accuse the authors of OR. I accuse you of OR. Whether they are wrong or right is immaterial to WP:OR, we are not qualified to assess that. If you have a problem with the WP:OR policy go and try changing it but until then just stop wasting peoples time. Dmcq (talk) 12:12, 18 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Well, if the authors of the paper itself, get it wrong. I can't argue with that.Poodleboy (talk) 12:23, 18 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. If you think there is a problem WP:WEIGHT might be the best thing to look at. But WP:OR is simply verboten. Dmcq (talk) 13:08, 18 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Agree, but note weight is due to the majority published expert view, and a minority view promoted by contrarians or deniers need not be shown at all. . . dave souza, talk 18:03, 18 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Any arguments based on WEIGHT also need to predicated on articulated RSs, not just your opinion. Discussions of appropriate weight inherently involve a comparison to other RSs, else they are just another form of OR.NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 17:51, 18 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Should This Be Renamed "Global Static Temperature"? or "Slight Warming?"

I have just begun looking at the data concerning the global warming theory (including pro- and con-) & confess that I don't know the truth of this. But in looking at the data, as on the chart on the article page, I note that the shape of the graph is greatly influenced by the vertical scale. What would the graph look like if the vertical scale were laid out in 1 degree units -- relatively flat? What scale would be on an NPOV chart? And the chart shows about a 1 degree C increase in temperature in the last 1/2 century. Now if the increase had been .0001 degree, would we call that "warming" or "status quo," given that 0 change is unlikely, but that there are approximations of 0? So if the temp has gone up 1 degree in half a century, is not that relatively stable, that is, essentially static? And are there really reliable secondary sources on world wide temperature history based on thermometers say at the corners of every cubic mile of ocean, from the sea floor to the surface just to measure the temperature of the ocean? -- likewise for the temperature of the entire volume of the globe -- are there references to the temperature at the corners of every cubic mile of the earth, that sort of thing. Can we really know how many thermometers and where they have to be placed in order to generalize? And have the secondary sources covered such epistemological concerns?

The article launches forth with: "Global warming and climate change are terms for the observed century-scale rise in the average temperature of the Earth's climate system . . . ." Should that statement be revised to say "Slight Global warming . . . the observed slight century-scale rise . . ."? (PeacePeace (talk) 22:22, 17 July 2016 (UTC))[reply]
No. --McSly (talk) 22:41, 17 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Everything is relative, including both our knowledge and the temperature record. But we are very certain that the temperature increase over the last half century or so is indeed significant and probably unprecedented in speed. You can try arguing with a judge that being 50 kph over the speed limit is not even visible on a diagram that plots all speeds as factions of c, but that's unlikely to convince him or her. If you are interested in learning more, I suggest that you start by browsing our set of articles first, to get an overview of what we know and how we know what we know. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 22:45, 17 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Some things are absolute, too many climate models are "matching" anomalies and trends, but are running as much as a degree C cooler in absolute temperature. That is 7% less water vapor and explains how they are under representing the increased precipitation and acceleration of the water cycle that is associated with the warming in the observations. Poodleboy (talk) 03:24, 18 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
From a physical point of view we should be measuring in degrees Kelvin and a 1°C rise is about 0.3% relative to that scale. So yes from a physical point of view it is only a slight warming, it is only a second order effect as a difference between warming and cooling, and that is part of what makes the science difficult. However for us human beings living on this planet it is extremely important as we can only live well in a fairly narrow band of temperatures and most of the species on earth can only survive in an even smaller range than us. Go up to 4°C and we're talking about severe difficulties around the world. So no 'slight' isn't reasonable when one considers it as affecting us. Plus on Wikipedia there is a policy that we name articles if at all possible according to how the topics are normally referred to. How did you find this article? I bet you didn't type 'global static temperature' or 'slight warming'. Dmcq (talk) 11:14, 18 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Curious point of view. Some of the "but it's okay" crowd point out that global temperatures have been higher in the past, and life went on. I think the real problem with the on-going warming is not how much (however "slight"), nor the absolute temperature reached, but how fast it is coming. Although the article has one "main" link to Abrupt climate change, it is kind of buried. I wonder if the significance of being rapid ought to be given more prominence. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:49, 25 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The Celsius scale is in the right range for us, since we are in the regime where 1C increase results in about 7% water vapor increase. We don't have good information on whether the increase is rapid, since most paleo temperature proxies have resolutions of 20 to 100 years or worse and accuracies too small to rule out changes of comparable magnitude unless sustained for longer periods than ours so far.Poodleboy (talk) 18:28, 26 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I don't get that argument. If an increase by 1 °C increases water vapour by about 7%, so will an increase by 1 K, or by 1.8 °F. Why prefer one scale over the other based on that? --Stephan Schulz (talk) 12:01, 31 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The current rise is pretty fast but I think without all the borders and fences most animals would be able to move to where it suited them rather than having to evolve to suit the new conditions. It is us that are liable to turn it into a major extinction event rather than a minor one. Not that that isn't happening already anyway Holocene extinction. Dmcq (talk) 11:32, 31 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]
"most animals would be able to move"....except for animals that already live on the extreme end of a naturally delimited range, or in a mountain habitat that simply keeps shrinking as climate zones move up-mountain, or depend on other ecosystem components that can't move as quickly (like, say, long-lived plants), or.... --Stephan Schulz (talk) 11:53, 31 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Can we update 2000_year_temperature_comparison?

I don't understand why no one in 12 years has bothered to update the marker for "2004". 2015 was more than 0.3 C warmer than 2004, which would be literally off the chart by the scale used in this graph. If a graphic artist is unwilling to modify the chart, can we at least point this out in the caption? Dawei20 (talk) 17:37, 30 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

2016

Is http://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/thumbnails/image/2016temperature.png accurate? https://www.scientificamerican.com/sciam/assets/Image/2016Jan-MarTempAnomalies_720_492_s_c1_c_c.jpg appears somewhat more substantial. EllenCT (talk) 04:25, 2 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not quite sure what you're asking. The two graphs show somewhat different data. The first one shows the temperature trend when averaged over the first six months of each year, while the second shows monthly temperature over the about past two and a half years. Both are from competent, trustworthy sources (NASA and Climate Central respectively). Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 13:00, 2 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
That second graph doesn't explain what the baseline is and there is no zero value on the y axis. And shouldn't the beginning of one year start at the same place as the end of the previous year? Was there that much of a jump between December 2015 and January 2016? It's not a good candidate for this article, IMHO. — Gorthian (talk) 17:50, 2 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The image shows "Year to date" averages, so December 2015 is the average over all of 2015, during which the anomaly increased significantly. January 2016 is only January 2016, so it starts off immediately at the record value reached in December. So the image probably is technically ok, but I agree that it is easy to misunderstand and not very suitable for the article. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 18:11, 2 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Ah. So it's basically a record of the running average anomaly, and restarts entirely at each new year. Thanks for the explanation. — Gorthian (talk) 18:57, 2 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I can see the point of the first graph, but the second one is an odd way to present data for multiple years. It would be helpful to show it in context. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 00:34, 3 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Lead section: policy responses

I've been thinking of revising the paragraph of the lead that deals with policy responses to global warming. Here's my suggested revision:

Policy responses to global warming include mitigation by emissions reduction, adaptation to its effects, building systems resilient to its effects, and possible climate engineering. Most countries are parties to the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change (UNFCCC), whose ultimate objective is to prevent dangerous anthropogenic climate change. Parties to the UNFCCC have agreed that deep cuts in emissions are required and that global warming should be limited to well below 2 °C relative to pre-industrial levels, with efforts made to limit the temperature increase to 1.5 °C.

References: As cited in current revision and Paris agreement, Article 2, paragraph 1(a), p.3.

Enescot (talk) 18:39, 6 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]