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: '''Against''' ''Year Zero'' is probably Pilger's best known documentary, and thus the most deserving of all of his documentaries to have its own article. In [[Template:John Pilger]] over a dozen of Pilger's other documentaries (out of about 60 in total) have their own Wikipedia articles, so it would look odd for the best known to have no article at all. However, in this biographical article, ''Year Zero'' has the most extensive resume. For reasons already explained, this situation is not entirely unreasonable, but some of the content here could be moved to the other article to beef it up. [[User:Philip Cross|Philip Cross]] ([[User talk:Philip Cross|talk]]) 10:10, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
: '''Against''' ''Year Zero'' is probably Pilger's best known documentary, and thus the most deserving of all of his documentaries to have its own article. In [[Template:John Pilger]] over a dozen of Pilger's other documentaries (out of about 60 in total) have their own Wikipedia articles, so it would look odd for the best known to have no article at all. However, in this biographical article, ''Year Zero'' has the most extensive resume. For reasons already explained, this situation is not entirely unreasonable, but some of the content here could be moved to the other article to beef it up. [[User:Philip Cross|Philip Cross]] ([[User talk:Philip Cross|talk]]) 10:10, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

::{{replyto|Philip Cross}} I agree with your proposal of merging some of the content the other way around. Thanks for your input [[User:Giorgio69|Giorgio69]] ([[User talk:Giorgio69|talk]]) 11:36, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

Revision as of 11:36, 15 December 2017


Pilger's friendship with Charlie Perkins

User:Brother Samson keeps adding a reference to Charlie Perkins, the Aboriginal activist, whom Pilger knew for many decades. As the reference stood, it did not establish that the connection between the two men was notable enough for inclusion in Pilger's biography, so I removed it. We could mention many other radicals Pilger has known over his long career, another might be Wilfred Burchett, but including them in the article would lead to a fragmentary passage or an unresolved loose end. In my view, unless there is a really good source by Perkins or Burchett commending Pilger in some way their inclusion here is best avoided. Philip Cross (talk) 04:41, 19 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

First of all Philip Cross, I'm going to begin by giving you the benefit of the doubt by assuming you're unlike others on Wikipedia who try and censor certain types of information for various reasons. We know all of the obvious reasons so I do not see the point in listing them all but I will say some people get uncomfortable when various things are exposed. I suppose that's why any person that is a fan of say ..... Andrew Bolt would have his blood pressure raised every time he sees John Pilger on television. Also that certain type of person would prefer any trace of or reference to Charlie Perkins be removed from every book and electronic storage device on this earth. Being positive here and highly hopeful about you, I'm going to say then that if you're not engaging in censorship then perhaps you're being somewhat overly pedantic. That being the case then the "Wiki Thing" to do is to often work with what's there and "Improve rather than remove".
Referring to the below,
  • Philip Cross (talk | contribs) Revision as of 10:18, 13 April 2014: (Undid revision 603975190 by Brother Samson (talk) Pilger's piece would improve Charles Perkins (Aboriginal activist))
I fail to see how removing my edit would as you put it "would improve Charles Perkins (Aboriginal activist))"
Also, prior to you posting here I'm positive had only added reference to Perkins twice and then I moved it to another section of the article. So three times then. Now it's four because I've added it but expanded it and will continue to add some other aspects over time. Also other activists that Pilger had associated with or worked with may be included. We'll see what I can come up with. I have a few of Pilgers documentaries and books at home to refer to as well.
Now your reference to Charlie Perkins as a radical may meet with a fair amount of disagreement & opposition here my friend. No doubt there are some Aboriginal activists that could be considered radical and I know of a few myself. Perkins is hardly one that I would fit into that category. Thanks (Brother Samson (talk) 05:26, 10 May 2014 (UTC))[reply]
As you have found material demonstrating a significant connection between Perkins and Pilger, there is no longer a problem with mentioning Charlie Perkins in this article. I removed the comparison with Mandela because the two men are not really comparable. Unlike Mandela, Perkins did not help to end a particularly pernicious system of white minority rule or end up as the President of his country after becoming a major international icon of resistance during imprisonment. As the selection of material is inevitable, it is usually best to avoid citing over statements which leave the subject of the article open to ridicule. I removed your mention of Pat Dodson, because you refer to his opinion and is only connected with Pilger because the journalist mentions Dodson's comment in The Secret Country. Philip Cross (talk) 07:30, 10 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I've reincluded Pilgers thoughts on Charlie Perkins [1] as it's important to show Pilgers actual thoughts on Charlie Perkins and Perkins's prominence in Pilgers mind. This is because it goes hand in hand with what Pilger has exposed or rather brought to light over the years regarding indigenous Australia. Excuding for now indigenous Australians and their views, the barometer of public reaction to this can be measured in two ways. One with non-indigenous Australians and their admiration for John Pilger and his work regarding this issue and bringing it to light or giving the issue an international voice. The other is with certain non-indigenous Australians and their hatred of John Pilger for exposing what they would rather be hushed up and forgotten. Now add the views of indigenous Australians to the mix and we see how massively important it all is. The relationship between Pilger and Perkins is of mega importance as Perkins had a great effect on Pilger and had aided Pilger in understanding all of this. Some may say too that Pilger is a rare example of that human being who is actually able to have a greater understanding of what it is like to walk in another mans shoes. It may be a case of Perkins helping Pilger with the shoe fitting.

With Pat Dodson I'm going to hold off for a while before attempting to re-insert it into the article until I find further references to him and Pilger. I'm certain there are more. (Brother Samson (talk) 05:52, 11 May 2014 (UTC))[reply]

Other work

Some of Pilger's other work should be added, for example-

In 2012, Pilger was a member of the interim consultative committee of the International Organization for a Participatory Society, founded in 2012.

refs as follows-

<ref name=iops /><ref name=iops2 />
<ref name=iops2>{{cite web|last1=Schechter|first1=Danny|title=The ideas and vision behind Occupy activism|url=http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2012/04/2012428101744733791.html|publisher=[[Al Jazeera]]|accessdate=11 February 2015}}</ref>
<ref name=iops>[http://www.iopsociety.org/interim-committee International Organization for a Participatory Society – Interim Committee] Retrieved 2012-05-20</ref>

Jonpatterns (talk) 15:15, 12 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Although the blog on the IOPS website is still being updated, it does not seem to be a very active society; the Al Jazeera article is nearly 3 years old. Pilger is the kind of public figure who puts his name to many initiatives without necessarily having much involvement. This seems to be the case here, and IOPS has made only a limited impact. Although Google comes up with many reference to IOPS, this is insufficient to establish this organisation's notability. Few of them count as reliable sources for the purposes of Wikipedia, and the IOPS website itself is not third-party. Philip Cross (talk) 15:34, 12 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Yugoslavia

Why nothing on Pilger's apologetics for Serbian atrocities against the Kosovars? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.172.116.92 (talk) 01:40, 26 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Or for that matter, his recent (false) assertion of Milosevic's innocence. This needs work, but I think I found no usable third-party sources on the Pilger Milosevic connection when I searched Google a couple of years ago. Will have to try again. Philip Cross (talk) 07:54, 26 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"Big Brotherland"

I think the point he's making by using this phrase is that television executives today would prefer to make "reality" TV series (like Big Brother) rather than investigative documentaries such as Pilger's, which is why I think he's referring to the TV franchise rather than the character from 1984. Then again, one of Pilger's other favourite themes is the extent to which media current affairs coverage unconsciously reflects the point of view of those in power - so I suppose you could argue the point either way. MFlet1 (talk) 11:38, 12 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

TV columns & the War on Democracy

This edit basically flips the content from simply explaining what the film is about, as you might expect an encyclopedia would aim to do, to kicking off the description with a negative attack, sourced not even to a serious appraisal of the film but to a newspaper's TV review column, where comment on the film was bundled up with that on other programmes. As noted in edit summaries, it's questionable whether this is decent enough content for a serious criticial response section in the main page on the actual film, but it certainly doesn't belong here, let alone as the defining description of the film. Saying "it's in the Telegraph, which is RS, hence has to go in" is a pretty weak argument in this context, as is making the point that it's not wholly negative, especially when it's been incorporated in the way it has here, ie by pulling out the negative to top the section. I agree the bit on the film needs more sourcing, and I know the user in question doesn't like John Pilger (and lots of other people), but can we please rein this in a bit and not turn everything into a propaganda fight based on pithy media commentary, especially commentary as flimsy and obscure as this? N-HH talk/edits 10:21, 28 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I will be adding material to the section again and hope other sources meet with your approval. The article on The War on Democracy contains a review by Andrew Billen (The Times TV critic in 2007) and Peter Bradshaw (film critic of The Guardian), with which I will try to resolve the sourcing issue first. As fat as I am aware, Noam Chomsky or Seumas Milne have not written about this entry in John Pilger's oeuvre, so it is a case of having to make do with mere reviewers. Philip Cross (talk) 10:58, 28 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This is slightly better than what you tried before, but as noted I question whether we need much critical reception and detailed quotation here at all, whether from TV reviewers or your personal betes noires. The film already has its own page, where much of this material is already included, and even that page is not the place to argue the toss as to whether the film is politically to your taste or not, but to explain what it is about. Also, oddly, you managed to dig up all the negative quotes from the Bradshaw Guardian review - which is actually pretty favourable overall. What a surprise. N-HH talk/edits 11:36, 28 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Not that I favour a star rating system, but Peter Brashaw gives it 3 out of five stars, so not an overwhelming endorsement. The passage already has an extensive quote from John Pilger himself, and Pilger is the most extensively quoted individual in the entire article, sometimes at a length which might normally be considered undue. If they did not consistently demonstrate Pilger's inflated ego, I would have reduced their length myself. The previously almost entirely unsourced section was not satisfactory, and the added quotes are brief. As they contain opinion, I could not have rendered them any other way, and the rest of the section is written from Pilger's viewpoint. Philip Cross (talk) 12:50, 28 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Merger Proposal

I do not feel a real need to have an underdeveloped article for the documentary Year Zero: The Silent Death of Cambodia. Most of it is already written here (and the documentary itself is only a part of the Year Zero reports). Therefore I propose to merge the existing article about the documentary with the section here, it will not be of disruption for this article as most of the content is identical. What is your opinions? Giorgio69 (talk) 09:43, 13 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Against Year Zero is probably Pilger's best known documentary, and thus the most deserving of all of his documentaries to have its own article. In Template:John Pilger over a dozen of Pilger's other documentaries (out of about 60 in total) have their own Wikipedia articles, so it would look odd for the best known to have no article at all. However, in this biographical article, Year Zero has the most extensive resume. For reasons already explained, this situation is not entirely unreasonable, but some of the content here could be moved to the other article to beef it up. Philip Cross (talk) 10:10, 13 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Philip Cross: I agree with your proposal of merging some of the content the other way around. Thanks for your input Giorgio69 (talk) 11:36, 15 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
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