Talk:Prince Frederick Charles of Hesse

old musings

This guy had an international role, being king-elect of another country. (And, for other factors supporting internationality, please read the article.) his name was in translated form when elected monarch (Fredrik Kaarle) - as is the custom dealing with princes. 217.140.193.123 2 July 2005 19:11 (UTC)

• Agree.Arrigo 10:21, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

• Oppose Another case of 217.140.193.123/Arrigo sockpuppetry. Gryffindor 20:30, 10 October 2005 (UTC)
• Oppose Charles 18:12, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose Took liberty of removing them now. --Drieakko 19:00, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

misc

I wonder about the content on this page. It seems to me that much, maybe the most, of it is irrelevant to the person and is better covered in an article on Germany's non-military strategies to increase her influence in Central Europe during WWI. Parts of it would also surely fit in nicely in the articles on other countries (Baltic countries and Finland) history.

/Tuomas

---

See discussion at: Talk:Väinö I of Finland -- Jniemenmaa 11:24, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Jniemenmaa's revert was reasonable.

According to my understanding, Prinz Friedrich Karl was not so much a force behind the development, which is the impression one gets from the longer, now reverted, version of the article.

I might be wrong, and might have read only the wrong books, but I see him rather as a representative for his class, prepared to "serve" as a ruler if history directed him to such a position – to which he, after all, had been brought up.
--Ruhrjung 12:01, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Friedrich Karl was not the first choice to be King of Finland, but Kaiser Wilhelm´s son Oscar. However Wilhelm was stricly agaist that kind of arrangement. So the Finnish monarhcists had to have other candidates. Duke of Mecklenburgh Adolf Friedrich, Prussian prince Friedrich Wilhelm and Prince of Hesse Friedrich Karl were chosen. Only Friedrich Karl was available after long serious consideration of his own. On the Oct. 9. 1918 he was elected to be king. No voting took place in election process and Maalaisliitto (Rural union) and the only Social Democrat MP took no part in election. However after Germany´s defeat in the great war, Friedrich Karl decided Dec. 4 1918 that he will not rise to the throne.

You are perfectly right, although you here omit the forces outside of Finland. In December, 1918, there were really no other choises than to renounce the throne. It was hardly any sign of of the Prince's independent will to shape history, rather his ability to act in the best interest of Finland.--Ruhrjung 12:41, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)

genealogical points

As he is perceived to have come to contact with Finland as a real foreigner, I intend to peruse some published information about his antecedents. In order not to burden the article with details, there goes only clear points.

1 Frederick Charles of Hesse

2 Anna of Prussia
3 Frederik of Hesse

4 Marie of Weimar
5 Carl of Prussia
6 Charlotte of Denmark
7 Wilhelm of Hesse

8 Maria Pavlovna of Russia
9 Carl Frederick of Weimar
10 Louise of Mecklenburg
11 Frederick William III of Prussia
12 Sophie Frederikke of Mecklenburg
13 Frederik of Denmark and Norway
14 Caroline of Nassau
15 Frederik of Hesse

16 Maria Fedorovna of Wurttemberg
17 Pavel Petrovich of Russia
18 Louis of Hesse
19 Carl August of Weimar
20 Frederikke of Hesse
21 Carl of Strelitz
22 Frederikke of Hesse
23 Frederick William II of Prussia
24 Charlotte of Coburg
25 Louis of Schwerin
26 Juliane Marie of Brunswick
27 Frederick V of Denmark
28 Caroline of Leiningen
29 Carl of Usingen
30 Mary of Great Britain
31 Frederick II of Hesse

32 Sophie Dorothea of Brandenburg-Schwedt
33 Frederick II Eugen of Wurttemberg
34 Catherine II of Russia, of Anhalt, descendant of Charles IX of Sweden, and also descendant of Dukes of Gottorp
35 Peter III Fedorovich of Russia, Duke of Gottorp, descendant of Charles XI of Sweden
36 Caroline of Palatinate-Birkenfeld
37 Louis IX of Hesse-Darmstadt, descendant of Charles IX of Sweden
38 Anna Amalia of Brunswick, descendant of Charles IX of Sweden
39 Ernest August II of Saxe-Weimar, descendant of Dukes of Sonderburg-Beck
40 Marie Louise of Leiningen, descendant of Counts of Ahlefeld
41 Georg Wilhelm of Hesse-Darmstadt, descendant of Charles IX of Sweden
42 Elisabeth of Saxe-Hildburghausen
43 Carl of Mecklenburg, descendant of Countess of Ostfriesland, the eldest daughter of Gustav I of Sweden
44 Caroline of Palatinate-Birkenfeld (=36)
45 Louis IX of Hesse-Darmstadt (=37), descendant of Charles IX of Sweden
46 Louise of Brunswick, descendant of Charles IX of Sweden
47 August Wilhelm of Prussia
48 Anne Sophie of Schwarzburg, descendant of Countess of Ostfriesland, the eldest daughter of Gustav I of Sweden
49 Francis of Saxony Coburg
50 Gustave Caroline of Mecklenburg, descendant of Countess of Ostfriesland, the eldest daughter of Gustav I of Sweden, and also descendant of Dukes of Gottorp
51 Christian Ludwig II of Mecklenburg-Schwerin, descendant of Countess of Ostfriesland, the eldest daughter of Gustav I of Sweden
52 Antoinette Amalie of Brunswick, descendant of Dukes of Schleswig-Norburg
53 Ferdinand Albrecht II of Wolfenbuttel, descendant of Charles IX of Sweden
54 Sophia Magdalena of Brandenburg-Kulmbach, descendant of Dukes of Sonderburg-Glucksburg
55 Christian VI of Denmark
56 Catherine of Solms, descendant of Counts of Ahlefeld
57 Christian of Leiningen
58 Christina Wilhelmina of Saxe-Eisenach, descendant of Countess of Ostfriesland, the eldest daughter of Gustav I of Sweden
59 Carl of Nassau-Usingen
60 Caroline of Brandenburg-Ansbach
61 George II of Great Britain
62 Dorothea Wilhelmine of Saxe-Zeitz, descendant of Dukes of Sonderburg-Glucksburg
63 William VIII of Hesse, nephew of Frederick I of Sweden

Merging

There should not be separate articles on Friedrich Karl as Friedrich Karl and on him as Vaino I of Finland. They are the same person. There should be a single encyclopedia article. john k 17:51, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, if the other article really was about the person an not about Finland's brief monarchistical adventure.

OK, should then the Väinö-article be renamed to Finland's monarchistical adventure of 1918? Maybe, though I'm not so sure. "Väinö" may be apocryphical, but I believe that title to be in accordance with the Wikipedia principle of using that name that is best known (in English).

/Tuomas 18:06, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

(4 months later - Jeez, I drop a lot of talk page threads) - Väinö is certainly not the name by which the man is best known. I don't know about monarchistical adventure, but I think renaming the Vaino article to something more generic would be worthwhile. john k 3 July 2005 17:58 (UTC)

Finland

Did Frederick Charles of Hesse ever actually set foot in Finland? JIP | Talk 10:27, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Based on claims by FInnish historians, no he didn't. Ape89 (talk) 19:14, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Rename

Request to move this either to Frederick Charles of Finland or to Charles of Finland. Henq 16:27, 19 June 2006 (UTC) This person was, briefly, the elected King of Finland. It has been his highest title ever, and now he is long dead. He is mostly remembered in connection to his kingship of Finland. The naming conventions direct to use such article name that indicates the highest title. This is at least as entitled to king's title as are Napoleon II of France and Louis XVII of France, who are under those titles and not under any "lower" naming.

Poll

• Support renaming to Frederick Charles of Finland. He was more commonly known as Frederick Charles than just Charles. Henq 16:27, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose. Hesse is the more common title. Finland in this case is more of an interesting footnote. Charles 18:23, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

• Finland is not a footnote. Frederick Charles is most notable for being elected king of Finland. Being part of German nobility is hardly notable in itself. -- Petri Krohn 13:48, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

He is rarely ever referred to by a Finnish title. Charles 18:13, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Result: No consensus; page not moved. Eugène van der Pijll 20:53, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Ancestry copied from Ancestry of Prince Wolfgang of Hesse

I created an ancestry section incorporating all relevant information form Ancestry of Prince Wolfgang of Hesse prior to making it a redirect. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail) 03:15, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

story of the name Väinö

• Some sources have him as "Väinö I"

In the parliamentary resolution which chose him to the kingship, he is mentioned as 'Fredrik Kaarle'.

In drafted documents (never 'signed' to effect), I think in foreign ministry, there were designations for the royal titulary. There he was named as King Kaarle. (Fredrik was possibly to be dropped, as it was and is somewhat alien to the Finnish language; whereas Kaarle is usual enough in Finnish

Väinämöinen is one of chief figures in the Kalevala, the epic of the 'nation'. Reconstrued (from chieftain) as sorta king.... However, there exists no contemporary (= historical) attestation of that Väinämöinen. National romantics in latter half of the 1800s had made several boys to be named Väinö, as a revitalization of 'ethnic' Finnish names (the name had NOT been in any use for centuries). There were therefore many Väinös floating around in 1918. (Most of them were young at that time, it was not long enough of that fashioability, to have many elderly men in 1918 with that name) But, I think, people in 1910s still more or less knew that it was an 'concocted' or 'invented' -at most, reconstrued- name, something which people were not at all using some decades (a generation) earlier.

At the time of the short-lived monarchy (autumn 1918), a republican satirist (Nuorteva, 'Olli') in his newspaper column made fun of the monarchy and there (as far as can be determined, the first ever time) pushed the satirical naming, 'Väinö I', to him. It looks to me that particularly some later republican propaganda perpetuated (-tendentiously-) that name 'Väinö I', and in that way, it has become something like an urban legend about the matter of the regnal name - believed by gullible people.

What is certain, is that no document of the government at the time ever mentions that 'Väinö' name for him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.181.239.182 (talk) 00:10, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Hi 82 - that's very interesting. Can you point us to any good secondary sources (preferably in English) which might discuss the issue. I've seen a fair number of general reference work type things which say that "Väinö" was to be his regnal name. I don't doubt that you're right, but it'd be helpful to see an actual detailed source on the subject and what it says. john k (talk) 00:15, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

Prince?

I think we should change the name since he was King of Finland and not Prince. Spongie555 (talk) 03:53, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

But he was not actually King of Finland. He was king designate of Finland, but never reigned. john k (talk) 05:39, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I still think it should be Frederick Charles of Finland beacuse like in Example Mindaugas II of Lithuania beacuse he never visited Lithuanaia and never assumed the crown. Since Frederick didnt take a regnal name atleast it should be Frederick Charles of Finland and Hesse Spongie555 (talk) 04:26, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

He never took up the position, so no title was ever officially bestowed. Mindaugas II should be renamed and moved also. Nightw 10:19, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

Later life

Prince Moritz of Hesse died recently, so the sentence "the source Viini 2/2007 (in Finnish) indicates a view that Moritz of Hesse is the current successor, and prince Donatus is the heir" should probably be changed. Ape89 (talk) 22:45, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

see Prince Wolfgang of Hesse about Moritz and order of succession.  :) 88.195.126.19 (talk) 02:40, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

What gives you the idea I HAVEN'T read that before? And even if I hadn't, it only confirms that the sentence should be changed, the problem is still the same; HOW it should be worded? Ape89 (talk) 09:57, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Nash article

Michael L Nash (2012) The last King of Finland. Royalty Digest Quarterly, 2012 : 1 88.195.248.164 (talk) 22:25, 22 December 2013 (UTC)