Talk:Abu Ghosh

not palestine

Abu Ghosh is an Israeli Arab village. It is not Palestine and the people who live there are not Palestinians. Including it in the Wikipedia Palestine project is misleading. --Gilabrand 05:16, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

not acceptable

The following passage (from Benny Morris) has been cut out (and instead "summarized" into one line):

1948-1950

The villagers of Abu Ghosh had first been expelled in 1948, but the bulk of the inhabitants "infiltrated" back home in the following months/years. In the second half of 1949, the IDF and police started to descend on Abu Ghosh in a series of search-and-expel operations, where they rounded up the most recent "infiltrators" and pushed them over the border into Jordan. (Morris, p. 267-268): Following one such round-up, in early 1950, the inhabitants of Abu Gosh sent off an "open letter", to Knesset members and journalists, writing that the Israelis had repeatedly

"surrounded our village, and taken our women, children and old folk, and thrown them over the border and into the Negev Desert, and many of them died in consequence, when they were shot [trying to make their way back across] the borders".

So far, the inhabitants had held their peace.

"But we cannot remain silent in face of the latest incident last Friday, when we woke up to the shouts blaring over the loudspeaker announcing that the village was surrounded and anyone trying to get out would be shot....The police and military forces then began to enter the houses and conduct meticulous searches, but no contraband was found. In the end, using force and blows, they gathered up our women, and old folk and children, the sick and the blind and pregnant women. These shouted for help but there was no saviour. And we looked on and were powerless to do anything save beg for mercy. Alas, our pleas were of no avail... They then took the prisoners, who were weeping and screaming, to an unknown place, and we still do not know what befell them." (quoted in Morris, 1994)

Partly due to public outcry, most of the inhabitants were allowed home. Morris writes (p. 269): In the end only several dozen Abu Ghosh families remained in exile, as refugees, in the Ramallah area in the West Bank.

...instead, one has inserted has a long, full quote by a casual inhabitant. This is really not acceptable. I am reinserting the full quote from Morris. Regards, Huldra 16:58, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

This whole section by Benny Morris is POV and sticks out like a sore thumb. The "cut and paste" feel is so blatant. I say it should be removed. The person who inserted it here is looking for some way to push his/her agenda. When it comes to Abu Ghosh, this anti-Israel bias doesn't pass muster.--Gilabrand 17:18, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Whaw. I am afraid that whatever you think of Morris, his writing is more representative for the history of the Abu Ghosh than some "cherry-picked" interview with an inhabitant. And that the villagers of Abu Ghosh were friendly towards the Yishuv: nobody is arguing against it. In fact; some would see that as a point. Regards, Huldra

Not Arabs

The residents of Abu Ghosh almost entirely hail from Cherkes ethnicity, therfore they are not Arab. The entire population hails from a single father, and are essentially within the same family. This should be added. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.250.44.20 (talk) 13:56, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

This is correct

"The four clans that comprise Abu Ghosh trace their origins to the Caucasus, from which they claim to have emigrated in the 16th century."

The Times of Israel http://www.timesofisrael.com/chechen-president-dedicates-abu-ghosh-mega-mosque/

BenjaminKay (talk) 17:12, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

POV Edit Abu Ghoshes Family Perspective moved for discussion

Moved the entire content below to avoid hopefully senseless edit wars. No opinion on content. MLauba (talk) 13:30, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

AbuGhosh from the AbuGhoshes Perspective THE ABUGHOSHES Origins of the Family The Abu Ghoshes (also written AbuGosh/ AbouGhoush), known as “ancien seigneurs feodaux”, an old wealthy landowning family, who ruled the Jerusalem mountains and controlled the pilgrimage route from the coast to Jerusalem during the Ottoman Empire. Some historians are of the opinion that the AbuGhoshes came from East Europe. Others (some Israelis) believe that the AbuGhoshes’origins go back to the Crusaders who came to Jerusalem with Richard Coeur de Lion in the 12th century AD (probably because many of them have blond hair and blue eyes). Members of the family and some other historians hold the view that the AbuGhoshes came originally from the Arab Peninsula. They were four Emirs of Yemen, who were brothers, when they arrived to Egypt. From Egypt they came to Palestine with the Ottoman Sultan Suleiman in 1520 and were entrusted with the control of the pilgrimage route to the holy places of Jerusalem (confirmed by the Egyptian royal manuscripts). It is also confirmed that the AbuGhoshes were settled in the sixteenth century AD on the mountains of Jerusalem, about 10 kms west of the Jerusalem city, where they still reside now. There is no doubt that the AbuGhoshes became related to the native Palestinian people (known to be descendants of the Canaanites) who lived at the site at that time, through marriage, as well as with the descendants of the Crusaders, who are known to have lived in the same region at the same time. Archeological excavations have revealed that the site where the AbuGhoshes live is one of the most ancient inhabited sites in Palestine. This site used to be “Kiryat Yearim” a Canaanite name dating back to 6000 years (“yearim” means “forest”). In the Islamic era the site was called “kiryat al-Inab”. This site took later the name of the family “kiryat AbuGhosh”. The site is now called “AbuGhosh”, a beautiful muslim palestinian small town near Jerusalem. Its inhabitants (until 1950, as explained below, AbuGhosh after 1948) are the descendants of the old feudal family of the 16th century. History In 1520 the Ottoman Sultan entrusted the AbuGhoshes with the control of the route from the coast to Jerusalem and granted them an official permission “farman” to exact tolls from all pilgrims and visitors entering Jerusalem. The churches of Jerusalem also paid tax to the AbuGhoshes in a one off yearly payment for their visitors (see Alexander Schoelch, Palatina im Umbruch). Palestine was part of Great Syria (Great Syria used to be divided in four main regions: Syria in the North, Lebanon in the West, Palestine in the South and Jordan in the East) and was governed by feudal families until middle of the nineteenth century. The AbuGhoshes were among the most known feudal families in Palestine. They used to govern the sites of 22 villages (see Finn, Stirring Times, I, 230). They had self determination powers in the region. All powers were in the hands of the Emir or Scheich (Lord) of AbuGhosh. The Scheich was also called Zaim or Mutasallem (leader, governor). He was dealing with all matters, political, military, economic, social and legal matters. A dispute between two parties was solved by the Scheich and a judgment was taken by him and executed with no right of appeal. Seeking revision was sometimes possible if allowed by the Scheich. Any person acting against the local laws or tradition was imprisoned. The AbuGhoshes used an old crusader church as a prison for their prisoners. The relation between the AbuGhoshes and the peasants of the villages was a patronus clients relation (see Alexander Schoelch, Palaestina im Umbruch; Mustafa ad-Dabbagh, Biladuna Filistin). According to tradition, any pilgrim or visitor to the holy sites passing through AbuGhosh had to give their respect to the Scheich. Some of the visitors of the holy places wrote about lady Stanhope (daughter of a British Lord, niece of the British Prime Minister William Pitt and a relative of Sir Sidney Smith who besiegt Napoleon in Akko and had correspondence with the Scheich Ibrahim AbuGhosh) that when she visited Jerusalem in 1811 she stopped in AbuGhosh to give her respect to the Scheich.. Scheich Ibrahim AbuGhosh, found her an interesting woman. He ordered a formal dinner and spent the night in her company. She came back the next year and the Scheich was delighted to see her again. The next morning he insisted to escort her with his guards and servants to Jerusalem (see kinglick journey to the East; Mustafa Dabbagh, Biladuna Filistin). The houses of the AbuGhoshes were described by pilgrims and visitors as beautifully built real stone houses and the house of the Scheich was described as “a true palace…, a castle…., a protective fortress….” (see Sepp, Jerusalem und das heilige land, 2 bde, I,S150 Schaffhausen 1863; see also Tischendorf, constantin: Aus dem Heiligen Lande, Leipzig 1862, S 165f; see also Alexander Scoelch, Palaestina im Umbruch, translated into Arabic by Kamel Jamil AlAssali, Unicersity of Jordan, p.224 ). In the nineteenth century, between 1834 and 1860 AbuGhosh was attacked by military forces three times. The first attack was launched by the Egyptian military forces in 1834 during the Egytian occupation of Palestine (1831-1840), under Scheich Jabr AbuGhosh, the second attack was in 1953 during the civil war (between feudal families) under Scheich Ahmad AbuGhosh who was 90 years old. He entrusted his nephew Mustafa with the military task force, who led an army of 1000 fighters; the third attack on AbuGhosh was made by the Ottoman military forces, helped and executed by the British forces, during the military expedition against the feudal families in the 1860s, under Scheich Mustafa AbuGhosh. Almost all villages governed by the AbuGhoshes were bombarded during this battle. The Ottoman Empire introduced reforms abolishing the feudal system and creating a centralised government with its main location in the Turkish capital. Great Syria was divided into administrative districts. Powers were transferred from feudal families to a Turkish governor, representing the Sultan, sitting in the city of Jerusalem. All villages and towns around Jerusalem were part of the Jerusalem District and each village was represented by a “Mukhtar”, that is, an elected person. At the beginning of the 20th century, a nephew of the “Mukhtar” of AbuGhosh, named Said AbuGhosh, left AbuGhosh and moved to reside in his owned land, an estate made of 22,000 dunum between AbuGhosh and the city of Ramla. He built his residence, a mansion, in his estate near the village of al-Qubab using a German architect. He was known to have hundreds of peasants working in his estate. He offered his protection to all villagers in the region. He was known to have founded a “Sabeel”, that is, offering water and a resting place to those travellers passing through on their way to Jerusalem, for free. He married the daughter of a Turkish General in the Ottoman army who had his residence in the village of al-Qubab. Said AbuGhosh was loved and very much respected by the AbuGhoshes for the many contributions and support he provided. After the declaration of the British mandate on Palestine in 1920 main concerns of AbuGhosh were the British occupation. He offered unlimited financial and military help to the Palestinian militants in order to fight the British. He was also known to have bought land in all parts of Palestine, in order to avoid land coming into the hands of the Jews, which made him one of the biggest landowners of Palestine in his time. The reason for avoiding Jews getting land was the rumours which were spreading around about the Balfour Declaration of 1917 ( promise given by the British government to the Jews to create a homeland in Palestine). AbuGhosh died in 1936 and was buried in his estate. AbuGhosh after 1948 The year of the Declaration of the State of Israel in May 1948 on Palestinian land is called by Palestinians the“Naqba” year, that is, year of disaster, during which Palestinians were expelled from their homes by the Jewish militants and terrorist groups (Hagannah,Irgun and Lehi) and driven to the borders. This year marks the beginning of the Palestinian Diaspora. A few months before the end of the British Mandate on Palestine, started the realisation of an organised Jewish-British plan to force Palestinians, native inhabitants of Palestine, to leave their land, in order to create a homeland for the Jews. Jewish military vans equipped with loudspeakers carrying military forces invaded Palestinian villages and drove between houses ordering all inhabitants to evacuate immediately. Those who refused to leave and stayed in their homes were shot dead. Other acts of terrorism were committed (see Deir Yassin massacre) to create a panic in all neighbouring villages. Villagers had no option but to flee in fear of their own lives. British trucks were waiting at the entry of a village offering Palestinians “help” to drive them away to the borders. The AbuGhoshes’ mansion-house, together with a bran new built hospital belonging to the son of the deceased Said AbuGhosh, mentioned above ( a medical surgeon who had a clinic in the city of Ramla), were blown up and destroyed by the Jewish military forces, the Hagannah, on the 1st April 1948. The Jewish military forces invaded the estate by dawn ordering the family to evacuate immediately and warning any person refusing to leave would be shot. They were given 15 minutes to leave. The family fled to Jordan. One of the guards was killed. According to eyewitnesses of servants who worked for the family, the mansion had been emptied from its contents by the Jewish militants before it was blown up and destroyed . The neighbouring villages were evacuated and destroyed weeks later. As for the small town of AbuGhosh, where almost all of the AbuGhoshes were domiciled, there was two phases of exodus: the first phase, happened immediately after the destruction of the AbuGhoshes’ estate, near Ramla/al-Qubab. Those inhabitants who left AbuGhosh were those who were directly involved in the Palestinian Resistance (secret meetings of the Palestrinian Resistance were sometimes held in AbuGhosh). Some of the AbuGhoshes volunteered and joined the Palestinian militants, defending Palestinian villages. The second phase took place immediately after the Jewish military aircrafts dropped bombs over AbuGhosh.. Large areas of land belonging to the AbuGhoshes on the outskirts of AbuGhosh were used by the Jews as military basis for their aircrafts to launch attacks on Arab villages along the road leading to Jerusalem. Jewish military airforce dropped bombs over AbuGhosh for 3 consecutive nights from 6 April to 9 April 1948, from 1am to 6am (see Encyclopedia of the Palestine Problem); and after Deir Yassin massacre on 9 April 1948 (254 villagers killed, including women and children), which was only 5kms away from AbuGhosh. Inhabitants of AbuGosh left their homes in fear of their own lives, with the intention to return when the troubles were over. Most of the expelled inhabitants of AbuGhosh in April 1948 made their way back home a few weeks or months later after the truce. When the Israelis found out about the return of AbuGhosh inhabitants, they killed every person passing through the borders trying to enter Palestine. Many of the AbuGhoshes were killed in trying to return home, including women and children. The AbuGhoshes, native inhabitants of AbuGhosh, domiciled in AbuGhosh for 500 years, were called by the new Jewish State of Israel “illegal infiltrators” and were shot dead while they were trying to return home. In 1949 the IDF (Israel Defence Force) surrounded the site of AbuGhosh announcing with loudspeakers the village of AbuGhosh under siege and warning anyone trying to get out would be shot. They conducted meticulous searches, arrested people, including women and children and took them to unknown places. They never came back. It became later known that they were first tortured, then driven to the borders and shot dead there (see Benny Morris, an Israeli historian and other Israeli historians). The Jewish military forces came back the next year on 7 July 1950. Residents of AbuGhosh were rounded up as “illegal infiltrators” and taken to unknown places. They never returned back (same source as above). It was said, they were killed. Many of the AbuGhoshes who were not allowed to return back home remained in exile, as refugees, in the West bank and Jordan until the present day. AbuGhosh, like all villages, towns and cities in the occupied territories of 1948, became part of the new created State of Israel. In 1950 a village near AbuGhosh “Beit Naquba”, was destroyed . The Israelis built a Jewish settlement there. Its inhabitants found refuge in AbuGhosh, as a temporary arrangement. Some of them moved out later. A few are still living in AbuGhosh. The AbuGhoshes have had difficulty to get along with those “foreigns” who reside in AbuGhosh since 1950, as they do not belong to the family and have different customs. Those “foreigns” developed some kind of hatred against the AbuGhoshes because they are not accepted by them. Some of those “foreigns” succeeded to change their surname into “AbuGhosh” by paying a bribery to the registration officers, in order not to be evicted from AbuGhosh. AbuGhosh is now surrounded by Jewish settlements built on AbuGhoshes’ land, which was considered by the Israelis as “Absentee Land” or “Miri land”. Jewish people reside in AbuGhosh too and are considered as inhabitants of AbuGhosh. It is now the case that not every resident of AbuGhosh belong to the AbuGhosh family, as it used to be before 1950, and not every member of the AbuGhosh family lives in AbuGhosh. Most of the AbuGhoshes live outside AbuGhosh in the diaspora, in other parts of the occupied territories, the West Bank, Jordan, Kuwait, Europe and USA. All landproperties of the AbuGhoshes outside the small town of AbuGhosh from the coast to Jerusalem were confiscated by the Israelis in 1948, classified as “Absentee Property” or “Miri Land”. References Alexander Schoelch, Palastina im Umbruch, Stuttgart 1986 Finn: Stirring Times Mustafa Dabbagh: Biladuna Filistin, Beirut 1965-1976 Sepp: Jerusalem und das Heilige Land, 2Bde, Schauffhausen 1863 Tischendorf, Constantin: Aus dem Heiligen Lande, Leipzig, 1862 Benny Morris and other Israeli historians AbuGhosh from the Jewish Israeli Perspective

There are no Circassian in Abu Gosh. They are arabs. I live near Abu Gosh - they speak arabian, wright in arabian and look like arabs. Here is document from israeli statistics bureau (in hebrew) about population of Abu Gosh - there written that there are only arabs in Abu Gosh: http://www.cbs.gov.il/publications/local_authorities2005/pdf/308_0472.pdf —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.64.17.2 (talk) 23:53, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Circassians

Greyshark, what is "Abraham J. Brawer, Shaked Gilboa (2nd ed.)"? You aren't allowed to copy citations from an intermediate source, see WP:SAYWHEREYOUGOTIT. One of the reasons for that rule is that it is easy to get the citation wrong, for example you might not realise that Abraham Brawer and Shaked Gilboa are both names of people so your citation is not a citation at all. Those two persons wrote the entry for Abu Ghosh in the 2nd edition of Encyclopedia Judaica. That entry describes Abu Ghosh as an Arab village and does not say what most of the residents consider their origin to be. So your edits are gone, please don't reinstert them without a proper source. Also note the comment just above this one. Zero^talk 06:18, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Headquarters of Golan Globus

It says in the section on culture that the headquarters of Golan Globus are in Abu Gosh. To the best of my knowledge they are in Neve Ilan (which is not far from Abu Gosh, but not in Abu Gosh). I suggest removing the part about Golan Globus from the article. 134.191.232.69 (talk) 19:54, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Jewish-Arab relations is incomplete for the Mandate Period

"Throughout the Mandate period, the village of Abu Ghosh was on friendly terms with local Jews." is attributed to Gelber, but on the page cited she is talking about the 1929 disturbances only. Check pp. 20-21. (https://books.google.pt/books?id=DPjhaJ5prXMC&lpg=PA13&pg=PA20#v=onepage&q&f=false) Later, during the Arab Revolt (1936-9), there was a faction (out of three, according to Cohen, p. 112, available at libgen) which supported the nationalists, fact which is attested most prominently by the picture that appears on Khalidi's Before Their Diaspora, and elsewhere. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.92.147.61 (talk) 22:02, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

It is not israel, it is palestine

Since abu means father in arabic, it is an ancient arabic name like many other arabic names that start with abu, like abu jaber which is a Christian Jordanian family, one of the founders of jordan, and jordan is obviously an arabic Country. Abu ghosh is an arabic name and it is an ancient Palestinian family from centuries ago, israel has only existed since 1948. Baselkh96 (talk) 11:57, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

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How many zillion ways do you need to say that the villagers were friendly with the Yishuv?

Due to the 1RR pointed out to me here, I reintroduces some instanced I think are wildly WP:UNDUE in this edit....where basically they are all saying the same: how friendly Abu Ghosh were with the Yishuv. (Not that you would get that impression, when you read how they were treated in the 1948 war.) That is simply not needed. Huldra (talk) 21:19, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

Considering the local outcome in 1948, it would seem that such good neighborly relations were quite important, and perhaps even due for an expansion beyond the two short paragraphs presently here.Icewhiz (talk) 21:28, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

Have you read the Morris book about this (that is, the 1994 book)? I added a lot from it years ago...that has been gradually reduced, and instead what wonderful relationships they had with the Yishuv has been expanded. Lol....Huldra (talk) 22:03, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

I agree Huldra, that the throwaway line from Issa Jaber is UNDUE, as is the tidbit on dinner with Weizmann. nableezy - 23:33, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

I am not convinced that Weitzmann's visit is all that notable, but I could be persuaded either way. The Jaber quote , OTOH, is far from undue. As @Icewhiz: notes, Abu Gosh's history is quite unique - it is the only Arab village in the area that was untouched by the war's violence. And if that outcome is , as Jaber claims, the result of a premeditated 'long term view', that is certainly worthy of mention. In any case, removal of relevant, sourced material with an edit summary that reads 'seriously" is unacceptable. Attack Ramon (talk) 21:49, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

Sigh, again, have you read the Morris 1994 book? Somehow I doubt it, otherwise how can you write such rubbish as it "was untouched by the war's violence"? Huldra (talk) 22:02, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

what part of that book do you believe contradicts that statement? Attack Ramon (talk) 22:03, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

pp. 257–289, the chapter called: The Case of Abu Ghosh and Beit Naqquba, Al Fureidis and Jisr Zarka in 1948 -or Why Four Villages Remained ...read that, and you (hopefully) will not go around writing rubbish ("was untouched by the war's violence") as you did above, Huldra (talk) 22:07, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

While touched, it remained in place, and maintains (to this day) friendly relations. Both pieces of information are well sourced. Icewhiz (talk) 05:04, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Do you guys really feel that every mention of an Arab and a Jew eating together here should be in this article? Should every act of violence recorded against the villagers of say Abu Dis likewise be included in that article if it can be sourced? nableezy - 05:45, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

You mean like this, or this, or this, or the countless other articles about Palestinian localities that have every mention of someone being shot or having his tree uprooted? Tell you what, go and remove those trivial mentions from those articles, and I'll remove the mention of Weitzmann's visit from this one. Attack Ramon (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 18:41, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

No but first President of Israel is notable enough--Shrike (talk) 07:05, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

So after user:Shrikes latest revert we have in the article:

From the early 20th century, the leaders of Abu-Ghosh worked together and were on friendly terms with the Zionist leaders.[24] Throughout the Mandate period, the village of Abu Ghosh was on friendly terms with local Jews.[25]

Lol, I wonder if Wikipedia will have any readers left with an IQ of above 80 if we continue to treat them to "gems" like the above. Perhaps you should lobby the WMF to change the slogan to "Wikipedia: the free encyclopaedia for imbeciles"? Huldra (talk) 20:25, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Repetition (rhetorical device) can be quite effective. Note that local Jews vs. Zionists, as well as the time periods, are rather significant differences. However, we could perhaps combine the two.Icewhiz (talk) 20:47, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

So we are writing poems now? ..that is where Repetition (rhetorical device) belongs. And I could also have added the sentence about welcoming Chaim Weizmann, for a third repeat ...Huldra (talk) 21:03, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

I was agreeing with you regarding combining the two sentences (but retaining both refs, and mentioning Zionists and local Jews).Icewhiz (talk) 21:05, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Actually...that was something I tried to do, before I met up with your revert army. If you check, you will see that I didn't remove a single ref... I just tried to summarise in a sentence or two what you guys want to say in a dozen sentences. Such bloated language (or in your words: Repetition (rhetorical device)) simply has no home in an encyclopaedia, IMO. In fact, I had hoped to trim it down further (unifying the Cohen refs, for a start)....if anyone of the revert army presently watching this article would be interesting in doing anything else than reverting: please start. Huldra (talk) 21:24, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Each of the people reverting to include this material have repeatedly cited WP:ONUS for keeping out disputed material. You know full well this material does not have consensus for inclusion. Until there is consensus for inclusion the onus remains on the people seeking to include it. @Shrike:, please explain why you revert per ONUS multiple times but ignore that here. nableezy - 21:20, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

That's not how consensus works. The material was in the article for years , and thus had consensus prior to Huldra's bold edit. [Per WP:CONSENSUS - "Any edit that is not disputed or reverted by another editor can be assumed to have consensus"]. Of you now want to show that there is a new consensus, for removing the material, the operative clause of WP:CONSENSUS says "In discussions of proposals to add, modify or remove material in articles, a lack of consensus commonly results in retaining the version of the article as it was prior to the proposal or bold edit. " For editors interested in a lesson in hypocrisy, compare this user's comments here with his comments and action on the [Jerusalem]] article - [1] Attack Ramon (talk) 21:34, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Yes, there may have been consensus, but there clearly is not consensus now. Yes compare the two, youll see what does not have consensus in both cases is removed. nableezy - 21:42, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

If there was consensus before and there is no consensus to remove it now, then, per policy, the article goes back to the version before the bold edit. Go read the policy, it is quite clear. Attack Ramon (talk) 23:48, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

There is a lot of terribly written material which can stay in articles for years, and years, and years..at least in articles such as this one (which has less than 30 watchers). If we just cried consensus! at each crossroad when we try too weed out the drivel...well, the Wikipedia would never improve. Huldra (talk) 21:48, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Baloney. All that's needed is for people to get consensus for their new changes, which you have failed to do. Attack Ramon (talk) 23:48, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Lol. The onus to achieve consensus for inclusion is on those seeking to include disputed content. This is disputed content. nableezy - 00:18, 17 June 2018 (UTC)

That onus was met several years ago, when the material was added to the article. If you now want to remove the material which had consensus, the following applies - "In discussions of proposals to add, modify or remove material in articles, a lack of consensus commonly results in retaining the version of the article as it was prior to the proposal or bold edit. " This is policy, and you need to edit accordingly. Attack Ramon (talk) 04:25, 17 June 2018 (UTC)