Wikipedia talk:Reliable sources

National bias in WP RS re ‘intervention’

Are there any WP RS news media that refer — in reporter’s voice — to their own country’s intervention in other country’s electoral (or other) affairs as ‘interference’? Humanengr (talk) 17:21, 13 January 2018 (UTC)

By way of example, U.S. news media considered as RS in WP rarely (if ever) refer to U.S. intervention in other countries as ‘interference’. Thoughts? Humanengr (talk) 03:00, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

Good question! Writing from memory, several members of the Indian press were critical of the Indian takeover of Sikkim. (India had been "interfering" in Sikkim for a long time, apparently legally, but the last election before the take-over was controversial.) Similar sitation applies to allegations of interference in Nepal, esepcially when there are allegations of a blockade. I am sorry that I don't have any references handy, but I can dig them up if it is important. (Mind you that non-interference in other country's affairs is a core principle of India's foreign policy from the days of Jawaharlal Nehru.) -- Kautilya3 (talk) 09:37, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

Interesting. That would seem to run directly opposite to what my searches show for U.S. news media regarded as RS on WP. Any such refs would serve as useful counter-examples, so if you happen across them, great. And thanks for the cite to Nehru’s foreign policy; I see here that he “described the five pillars to be used as a guide for Sino-Indian relations, which were first put forth by Chinese Premier Zhou Enlai Called Panchsheel (five restraints), these principles would later serve as the basis of the Non-Aligned Movement. Jawaharlal Nehru was the architect of the Non-Alignment Movement.” Principle #3: “Mutual non-interference in domestic affairs” invokes ‘non-interference’ explicitly.

But my primary interest is to see if any here can identify similar use of the term ‘interference’ by a U.S. (or, if not that, any Western or allied nation) RS reporter to characterize U.S. intervention abroad? Anyone? tia, Humanengr (talk) 18:56, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

Yes, indeed. See also Non-Aligned Movement, of which Nehru was a champion. The Parchsheel agreement did not do much good for India because China still blamed India for CIA's interference in Tibet. This (mis)perception was one of the causes of the Sino-Indian War. Some scholars still believe that India was involved in Tibet. Knowing Nehru, I think it would have been highly unlikely.

The principle of non-interference had its roots in the anti-colonial movements, because colonialism was nothing but interference in the extreme. So, the former colonies would appreciate the worth of non-interference. The former colonial powers probably think it is a yawn. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 07:38, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

References

And they continue to yawn while effectively pursuing similar ends under the heading of ‘foreign intervention’ (a neutral or positive term) rather than labeling it ‘interference’ (a more negative term). (Thx for the various details re Soviet, China, Tibet, India, CIA; that all rings bells.) Humanengr (talk) 10:23, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

Please remember that the question asked is not: “Did country X interfere in country Y?” ... but “Did the media of country X use the term “interfere” when talking about what X was doing?” Most media would use more positive sounding terms if they approve of what X is doing... and would only use “interfere” if they disapprove. So... you would have to look at opposition media for the usage. Blueboar (talk) 12:13, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

Thx, Blueboar, and you’re exactly on point that the question is “Did the media of country X use the term ‘interfere’ when talking about what X was doing?”. Also thank you for the phrasing “if they approve” and “if they disapprove”. Using that, imagine two situations: 1) nation A takes action in nation B, and 2) nation C takes action in nation A. Media in nation A overwhelmingly approve #1 and characterize it as ‘intervention’ and disapprove #2 as ‘interference’. Just checking that makes sense before proceeding further. Humanengr (talk) 16:28, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

Well, "intervention" does not necessarily indicate approval... but "interference" almost always indicates disapproval. I would suggest you explore media reports from the late 1960s regarding the US involvement in Vietnam... I doubt many US media outlets would have used "interference" in the early 1960s (when involvement was generally approved of in the US). However, by the late 1960s or 1970s attitudes had changed, and the chance that an outlet used "interference" goes way up. Do I know of a specific instance of the word being used? No... but I would be surprised if no one used it. Blueboar (talk) 17:58, 15 January 2018 (UTC)

Basically agree re ‘intervention’ and ‘interference’; the former typically neutral or positive, the latter negative. Also, thx for enunciating the temporal element.

Backing up a step, I’m realizing I should amend the § title to “National bias in WP RS re foreign ‘intervention’”. I struggled with the title as it is a compound topic, bringing in effects of national bias in news media, WP criteria for identifying media as RS, and weighing of RS for use. Your statement of the question captures the first part of that, but I wanted to indicate the broader context. Will write after further research. Humanengr (talk) 16:48, 16 January 2018 (UTC)

@Blueboar and all, Offered for consideration:

A WP search for <"Russia interfered" OR "Russian interference”> yields 470 hits, the phrase appears in 3 as an article title; in many of the news media sources cited therein; and in the title of a WP ’Sister Project”, … . The phrase is freely used by U.S. reporters and editors to describe Russian actions.

In contrast, a WP search for <"America interfered" OR "American interference" OR "U.S. interfered" OR "U.S. interference”> yields 61 hits. In 0 of those 61 does the phrase appear with a supporting citation of a U.S. reporter using that phrase to characterize U.S. actions. Where it does appear, it is used, e.g., to characterize foreign perceptions of U.S. actions; with citation not to news media but to a book or an academic work; or without citation to a source.

(A search for <Vietnam “American interference”> yielded 5 hits, one of which was relevant. The mention was, again, that of foreign perception of U.S. actions.)

For further context, note that, per Foreign electoral intervention,

A 2016 study by Dov Levin found that, among 938 global elections examined, [fn: These covered the period between 1946 and 2000, and included 148 countries, all with populations above 100,000.] the United States and Russia [fn: including the former Soviet Union] combined had involved themselves in about one out of nine (117), with the majority of those (68%) being through covert, rather than overt, actions. The same study found that "on average, an electoral intervention in favor of one side contesting the election will increase its vote share by about 3 percent," an effect large enough to have potentially changed the results in seven out of 14 U.S. presidential elections occurring after 1960.[cite; fn: This is, as the author points out, "Assuming, of course, a similar shift in the relevant swing states and, accordingly, the electoral college." Others cites have argued that foreign electoral intervention is likely to have the opposite effect.] According to the study, the U.S. intervened in 81 foreign elections between 1946 and 2000, while the Soviet Union or Russia intervened in 36.[cite to Levin]

Further searches welcome.

To what does anyone attribute the above discrepancy between “Russian interference” and “American interference” in WP? Humanengr (talk) 02:52, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

People not creating articles.Slatersteven (talk) 15:56, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

And to what do you attribute the dearth of U.S. news media articles that characterize U.S. ‘interference’ as such? Humanengr (talk) 02:05, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

@Slatersteven, How can users create articles that indicate the U.S. ‘interfered’ when so-called ‘Reliable Sources’ characterize U.S. actions as ‘intervention’ rather than ‘interference’? Humanengr (talk) 21:34, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

Which sources, what exactly are you talking about?Slatersteven (talk) 22:03, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

The point is that, AFAICS, there are -no- U.S. news media cited in WP that refer to U.S. actions in other nations as ‘interference’ rather than ‘intervention’. As I said above:

a WP search for <"America interfered" OR "American interference" OR "U.S. interfered" OR "U.S. interference”> yields 61 hits. In 0 of those 61 does the phrase appear with a supporting citation of a U.S. reporter using that phrase to characterize U.S. actions.

Can you find any instances where U.S. news media are cited in WP to refer to U.S. actions in other nations as ‘interference’ rather than ‘intervention’? Humanengr (talk) 01:50, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

@Slatersteven, Does that clarify? Humanengr (talk) 16:54, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

@Slatersteven or anyone, Do you dispute that Russian actions are consistently characterized in WP as ‘interference’ whereas analogous U.S. actions are not? Humanengr (talk) 21:47, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

It is not what we say but what the sources say that matters. --Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 21:53, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

Exactly...and so what. RS in each language will tend to have a national bias. The Russian Wikipedia no doubt has the opposite bias because it uses Russian sources. So what? Just document what RS say. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 21:57, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

The 'so what' is that it needlessly fractionates 'RS' as a standard and promotes conflict. Who does that serve? Humanengr (talk) 05:56, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

@BullRangifer, re: “RS in each language” — right, ‘WP:RS’ is not a WP designation, but rather a WP-en, WP-ru, … designation. To label it as WP:RS is misleading. Thoughts? Humanengr (talk) 05:01, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

??? Is this still alive? After my "so what", I thought you'd get the point, but I guess this really means something to you, but I'm not sure what you want to do with it, if and when you get it figured out.

I could edit in the Scandinavian language Wikipedias, besides this English version, but I assume that the standards for what are RS follow similar principles. I haven't noticed any difference. I'm speaking of the language in the source, not just the particular country's wiki. (The RS used in each language's wiki will tend to be sources written in that language, with few exceptions.) Therefore, your comment "To label it as WP:RS is misleading." is confusing to me. What on earth are you talking about? All along, since the beginning of this section, all who commented here have been using the term RS to mean the policy WP:RS. Are you now referring to something else? -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 05:21, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

Your assumption — “the standards for what are RS follow similar standards” — is incorrect. RS on WP-ru includes TASS per Russian Wikipedia Authoritative sources. The standards for inclusion as RS differ. Humanengr (talk) 18:17, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

But the English Wikipedia also considers TASS a RS, but recognizes it is under the control of Putin, and thus far from neutral. American and British news media may have their biases, but they are not under government control, with the exception of Trump's channel Real News Update. (Trump controls it, but Fox News controls Trump's POV.) TASS is thus, as with many RS, reliable for its own POV. This is just a good example of how national bias exists, and how that bias is affected by many societal and political factors. With TASS, RT, and Sputnik, we're dealing with Russian propaganda and misinformation, which goes beyond mere national bias. Their actual "reliability" is questioned by those outside Russia, while Russians have little choice but to accept them, and not voice disagreement too loudly. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 21:11, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

[Cont’d in new section below] Humanengr (talk) 20:19, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

[Should’ve asked before starting new section; apologies] Perhaps I missed it, but I didn’t see reference in WP policy, guideline, essay pages to considering TASS as RS or for characterization as “far from neutral”, “propaganda”, and “misinformation”. Or is that from article or talk pages? Just curious as to your sources. Humanengr (talk) 01:34, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

LOL! That's national bias, experience, and then western intelligence agencies. TASS is a RS for its own opinions, and some of the time also for general news. When it comes to politics and east/west relations, they only print what Putin, FSB, and GRU allow. Unlike most western European nations and allies, Russia does not have a free press. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 03:24, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Humanengr, replying to your deleted comment, yes, we do have articles which address the subject of press freedom in Russia. They are filled with RS for further research: Media freedom in Russia and List of journalists killed in Russia. In 2013 Russia ranked 148th out of 179 countries in the Press Freedom Index from Reporters Without Borders. In 2015 Freedom House report Russia got score of 83 (100 being the worst), mostly because of new laws introduced in 2014 that further extended the state control over mass-media. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 20:45, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Thx for responding to my question. (Undeleted here: Do you have a reference in WP policy, guideline, or essay pages for ‘free press’?) That clarification might prove helpful later. For now, I’ll continue below. Humanengr (talk) 06:39, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

See WP:PRESERVEBIAS (essay). -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 21:59, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

Should such gross bias be indicated or remain hidden? Humanengr (talk) 06:22, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

It would violate NPOV to interject editorial opinion or to hide it through censorship. Editors are supposed to remain neutral and faithfully document what RS say. Direct quotes are obviously what they are, and paraphrases should not deviate from a quote by whitewashing out any bias. It should be preserved. A lot of what we do here involves documenting bias, without taking sides. It is editors, not sources and content, which must be unbiased and neutral. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 15:18, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

Per WP:PRESERVEBIAS: "This does not mean that no attempt should ever be made to rectify gross imbalance …". We seem to agree there is persistent national bias. To expect readers to accept such biased characterizations — when presented persistently — as 'verified' much less 'true' seems to be asking a lot. Humanengr (talk) 21:13, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

Yes, that type of bias exists, cannot be avoided, and it is our job to document it, not neuter it, hide it, censor it, or even point it out (with our own comments or way of including it). That bias just might be the correct POV, because the correct POV is rarely in the middle. It's nearly always somewhere off-center. BUT, whether it's true or the correct POV or not is not our concern. We document all POV.

Each country, culture, and language will tend to have its own biases, ways of looking at things, and ways of expressing biases (IOW its view of what is true). Sometimes those biases are built right into the language. It is not our business to interfere in that. We must remain neutral and simply document it. We literally document a worldview. At the English Wikipedia, we document the worldview as presented primarily in English language sources, although no wiki is bound to only use their own language sources. We are allowed to translate and use sources from other languages.

Regarding "as 'verified' much less 'true'", we must prioritize "verifiability, not truth". That phrase used to be part of policy, and is still a fundamentally important concept to understand. There is an essay about it: [[WP:VNT. Our job as editors is not to allow our own ideas of truth (which are subjective) to influence our editing. We are not here to "right great wrongs". See the policy about that: WP:RGW. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 02:39, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

Re your 2nd para: A claim of 'verifiable' is quite an overreach when 'worldviews' conflict across 'countries, cultures, and languages'. 'Reliability' is certainly not assured. For such cases, the guidance in WP:NEWSORG and WP:SOURCE is inadequate. (Aside: Do you have a reference for the 'worldviews' term in WP policies, … ?) Humanengr (talk) 19:33, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

"Interference" to some extent implies not only the action but success at it. For all of these cases, why not just neutral words that still convey the information? E.G "Efforts to influence".North8000 (talk) 15:56, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

Because that would violate NPOV. We must preserve the meaning, bias, and intent of our sources. Articles are not OUR articles. We can use our own websites, blogs, Facebook, and Twitter for that. No, our job is to neutrally present biased content, warts and all. We aren't allowed to remove the warts first or put make-up on them. We must present content accurately to readers, without the content being affected by our filters. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 02:39, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

@BullRangifer, You acknowledged that “American and British news media may have their biases”. The problem is that articles on international disputes do not acknowledge that bias and readers are left unaware. How do we address that? Humanengr (talk) 02:08, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

Seriously? You're still obsessing over this? Just get over it. It's part of life. English language sources will tend to have their biases; Russian sources will have their biases; Arabic sources will have theirs. That means there will be contradictory information between sources and the Wikipedias in each language. For really serious matters, like lying about factual matters, then use fact checkers. English language fact checkers are objective enough so their bias is so much toward truth thay they openly call Trump a liar. You won't find Russian fact checkers getting away with that, and if Trump remains in power much longer, American fact checkers won't be allowed to serve truth to that degree much longer either. Relish this fact and use those fact checkers. They surpass and transcend these national/language/cultural biases. Thanks to them, especially on the news sources which Trump calls "fake news", there you will come closer to truth than anywhere else on earth. The sources he likes disdain fact checkers. During the presidential campaign Trump even warned not to trust fact checkers. Only dishonest people do that. That's my last on this subject. Get over it. Life goes on. Use fact checkers. That's the only way to get closer to truth. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 05:37, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

Re: “English language sources will tend to have their biases; Russian sources will have their biases; Arabic sources will have theirs. That means there will be contradictory information between sources and the Wikipedias in each language.” Why do you want to hide the existence of such contradictory information? Shouldn’t an encyclopedia that ostensibly offers the world’s knowledge want to highlight the existence of such differences in order to further a more common global understanding? What gain is there to reinforcing biases by constructing each language version as an echo chamber? Why not have, say, a template at the top of all articles involving an ongoing international dispute identifying it as such? Humanengr (talk) 06:16, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

WP:RS is a misleading designation

[Picking up on this issue as discussed above]

The fact that RS standards vary between language editions, as indicated in the example above, shows that identifying the WP-en RS standard as ‘WP:RS’ misleadingly presents it as a global WP standard rather than a WP-en standard. This subsection focuses on the misleading nature of that shortcut identifier. Humanengr (talk) 20:19, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

I don't see you as making any point not assumed already (you're just pointing it out). Is this really a "problem"? Do you have a better suggestion? -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 21:17, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

Yes, enwp.org is pretty enwp-centric... Nearly none of the policies mention that they're enwp policies, and don't apply to other Wikipedia projects! Misleading! Bright☀ 17:12, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

But that is the fault of those who don't know that. engwp.org doesn't make such a claim, so it's incorrect to assume it, and yet there will still be many similarities. Each has its own version of RS and NPOV. National bias will also affect how local editors word their policies. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 03:28, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

I was being sarcastic. Bright☀ 09:11, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

Oh! Thanks for the clarification. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 14:46, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

I really think this forum should be used for specific cases of specific edits citing specific sources in specific articles. To discuss general philosophies is above our pay-grade, or if really necessary, something for discussion on a policy page. Personally I think the simplest way to approach the problem on WP is to say that we summarize what the best sources we can find say, and if we find no decent sources we say nothing. The sources do not have to be neutral or on any particular side. It tends to be easiest to try doing this first and then discuss difficult cases as specific cases. (Apparently when it comes down to working on something practical, people apparently agree about a lot of things. When it comes to deciding on general policies they never do.)--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 21:04, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

@Andrew Lancaster: The Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard is for “posting questions regarding whether particular sources are reliable in context.” Humanengr (talk) 06:47, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Note the "particular" and the "in context". There are far too many generalized discussions now, and these rarely achieve anything. Wikipedia is not a forum for philosophical discussions.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 09:06, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Ah. Now I see what you mean. Yes, it seems I wrongly thought this discussion was on that forum! However, while that may make my wording look silly, I still think my point is relevant. I do not think WP wins anything by having very specifically defined and generalized rules, and I think the RSN approach is the right one for WP generally: case by case. We are nowhere near a level of perfection where for example it becomes realistic to expect that all language versions have similar opinions, not only for controversial subjects but even for surprisingly simple ones. In that context I think the differences between WP versions can even be helpful.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 09:17, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

@Andrew Lancaster, Assuming that the differences can be helpful, have you seen the differences being highlighted in WP? Humanengr (talk) 01:25, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

Seeking an indication of NPOV

Can anyone identify -any- action by the U.S. on any of the following or related pages — Foreign interventions by the United States or United States involvement in regime change or Foreign electoral intervention or Interventionism (politics)#Foreign_interventionism — where news media considered as RS per WP-en characterize the U.S. action as 'interference'? Humanengr (talk) 01:32, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

• Tharoor, Ishan (October 13, 2016). "The long history of the U.S. interfering with elections elsewhere". The Washington Post. Retrieved 23 April 2018. --GRuban (talk) 04:08, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
• "The U.S. is no stranger to interfering in the elections of other countries". Los Angeles Times. Retrieved 23 April 2018.
• "Russia Isn't the Only One Meddling in Elections. We Do It, Too". The New York Times. Retrieved 23 April 2018. --GRuban (talk) 04:14, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Right, those are the only ones I found. Note that all 3 are distantly historical, drawing on Dov Levin’s journal article that addresses Russian and U.S. electoral intervention from 1946-2000.

No WP articles cite any contemporaneous RS to portray U.S. intervention as 'interference'.

Yet we have near uniform characterization of Russian actions as ‘interference’.

Further, the Tharoor article states: "While the days of its worst behavior are long behind it, the United States does have a well-documented history of interfering and sometimes interrupting the workings of democracies elsewhere."

On what basis is the underlined claim made? Humanengr (talk) 01:21, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

For disputes between the U.S. and its opponents, by what measure are U.S. news media any less propaganda or misinformation (BullRangifer's terms above) than those of opponents? Humanengr (talk) 01:00, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

There's a loaded question if there ever was one. The answer is, depending on the context, specifically meaning of "the U.S. and its opponents" and "U.S. news media". If the dispute is between the governments, then government-controlled media is a directly involved party, while media that happens to be published in one of the countries, but is not government-controlled is less involved. If the dispute involves all facets of a society - say WWII - then the lines blur. But I'm guessing you're talking about the Syrian Civil War, and why RT (TV network) and TASS are not considered reliable; well, because the Russian government is directly involved in the war, and TASS is directly owned by the Russian government, and RT is widely considered to be controlled by the Russian government. The extent to which the U.S. Government is directly involved is debatable, and in any case the New York Times, etc., are not directly controlled by the U.S. Government. --GRuban (talk) 14:58, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Thx; to clarify if you care to answer: re ‘loaded question’, how would you express the ‘controversial or unjustified assumption‘; re ‘extent to which’, does that include ‘whether’? Humanengr (talk) 10:16, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Er ... what? Sorry, I didn't understand that question. --GRuban (talk) 19:54, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

[re our prior 2 posts, we can set that aside for now.]

Presenting information using loaded language is propaganda. Using negative terms (e.g., ‘interference’) to describe A’s actions while using neutral or positive terms (e.g., ‘intervention’) to describe analogous B’s actions is loaded language, hence propaganda.

Adding qualifiers to classify actions by ‘direct involvement’, ‘extent of involvement’, etc., doesn’t change that. It’s still loaded language.

Those qualifiers are at best distractions from the base issue — description in negative vs neutral or positive terms.

Western media use the former to characterize Russia actions but -never- characterize U.S. actions in those terms. This is inappropriate bias for an encyclopedia ostensibly trying to capture the ‘world’s knowledge’.

(I can address each of your ‘qualifiers’ (my term) if needed, but wanted to address in summary first.) Humanengr (talk) 14:25, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Since when was the Chinese Foreign Ministry a reliable source?

"Questionable sources are those with a poor reputation for checking the facts..." I would argue that the Chinese Foreign Ministry should CERTAINLY be viewed as a questionable and unreliable source for the purposes of Wikipedia articles concerning border disputes. The fact that I am even having to make this post is a disgrace, but see the article on (for example) the 2017 China–India border standoff. I will continue to search to determine whether this article is a one off, but I am seriously doubtful of it. One only has to think of China's actions in the South China Sea to feel disbelief in the idea that Wikipedia could be a platform for Communist Information warfare.

The general issue here should be one of procedures and policies governing how Wikipedia deals with reporting upon Border disputes. Would Wikipedia ever, for example, refute Parliamentary sources in the UK? Or papers by the American Government? Under what circumstances would a government's publications be considered unrealiable (perhaps this is a difficult question to answer, but one worth general policy commentary)?

ASavantDude (talk) 23:08, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

All governments lie, without exception, when it serves its purposes. The differences are in frequency and recklesness. Staszek Lem (talk) 21:00, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Nearly every possible source can be reliable for something and unreliable for something. It is very difficult to get any practical agreement about "general theories" of reliability. The solution is to only bring specific examples here: what edit is being proposed, using what source, etc.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 21:14, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Or at WP:RSN. --Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 21:17, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

In this case it's fair to use the Chinese Foreign Ministry as a source, but 1) Don't state China's views as fact 2) Clearly state the source and 3) Provide alternate viewpoints. Example: "The Chinese Foreign Ministry formally made claim of [some land] on [date]. This claim was met by protest from [the international community / occupying countries / etc]". There's no debate that the Chinese Foreign Ministry is an incredibly biased source pertaining to this issue. --Elephanthunter (talk) 16:58, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

Agree with above sentiment, although I'd be a bit worried if ANY foreign ministry demonstrated objectivity to its own detriment! :))))) But no government standpoint should be presented as fact. Quite simply: according to the Chinese foreign ministry, China is the most popular tourist destination in the world for the fifth year running..., or whatever it reports. --Edin Balgarin (talk) 16:43, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

Masters thesis

If we want to change criterion for Masters thesis in this guideline we must have RFC--Shrike (talk) 19:09, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

@Thinker78:This change has deleted the masters word [1] before that this version was stable.--Shrike (talk) 22:27, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Revert of Shrike and Erkinalp9035 edits regarding theses

I removed a change to the guideline that was made on 23 May by Erkinalp9035 without seeking consensus. "Theses" alone was the stable version of the guideline for over a year and the addition of "for degrees lower than doctoral degrees" was made without seeking consensus. Shrike later restored said change claiming that I needed to seek consensus but actually the onus for consensus laid on Erkinalp9035 because I only removed a change Erkinalp9035 made without consensus. Although I have to make the clarification that I only partially reverted the edit because the guideline read "Masters dissertations and theses are considered reliable only..." and I only removed the addition of "for degrees lower than doctoral degrees". I think the guideline as it was talked about theses and masters dissertations although it can also mean masters dissertations and masters theses but my best guess is that all theses, not just masters ones and not just theses for degrees lower than doctoral degrees, can also be used as reliable sources, thence I didn't revert completely the change that Erkinalp9035 made. Thinker78 (talk) 22:47, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

I have reverted to version dated 6 May before all the changes.This wording was stable for a long time.If someone want to change it please do a RFC.--Shrike (talk) 22:52, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

Per WP:RFCBEFORE let's try discussing this before the rfc. Thinker78 (talk) 23:57, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

This affects a wide swath of editors. The guideline should not be changed from the long-standing consensus without an RFC. But if folks want to discuss how to word an RFC before starting it, I have no problem with that. Jc3s5h (talk) 00:01, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

I think change of PhD to doctorate is undisputed since not all countries have PhD. For example, Russia only has D.Nauk (D.Sc.) which is equivalent to German docency. Erkinalp9035 (talk) 13:42, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

RS for map data?

I just rejected a draft because the author was using wikimapia as a reference, and wikimapia isn't a WP:RS due to it being user-supplied data. So, where does that leave us? What is a RS for map data? Open Street Map, while pretty much the gold standard, is also user-supplied data. So what should I recommend to people in place of wikimapia? -- RoySmith (talk) 20:57, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Wikimapia has reviewers. OSM has stringent enforcement of community principles. Both have good and bad sides. Disclaimer:

This user has an account and contributes to OpenStreetMap.

Erkinalp9035 (talk) 18:46, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

Fact checking

Wikipedia employs no systematic mechanism for fact checking or accuracy -> Wikipedia currently employs no systematic mechanism for fact checking or accuracy. Paper encyclopedias had trusted committees, and those committees had many scientists in many fields and were usually headed by a philosopher or a grammarian to check accuracy. As Wikipedia editors are highly distributed and has no one trusted, we need a systematic process. Wikipedia, as an encyclopedia, cannot perform primary original research, but sometimes, primary sources conflict so much that a reconciliation (which is a tertiary research) is needed more than stating "there is no consensus". Hence a need for systematic reconciliation process. Something like systematic literature review but applied to a tertiary source. An automated rule-based one would be even more preferable as it would be auditable. Erkinalp9035 (talk) 14:05, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

It would also allow to simplify the inclusion criteria in most subjects into "systematically audited k-fold n-ary attestation (k and n may vary among subjects) from reliable sources", helping us include more information but still closer to the truth. Erkinalp9035 (talk) 08:17, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

@Erkinalp9035: When sources conflict, editors need to weigh their reliability and try to give them due weight accordingly. Sometimes, we might even decide some sources are just wrong, and delete these claims or move them to a footnote. For example, I did this at Acts of Thaddeus#Authorship when a bunch of sources from reputable publishers made erroneous claims. If you're suggesting a more formalized process for making these judgments, then I would suggest that you think this through and make a more specific proposal. However, if by "reconciliation" you mean actively trying to make sense of how both sources can be true, then that's WP:SYNTH, and I strongly agree with the guidelines that that is out of the scope of what is appropriate for an encyclopedia editor. Daask (talk) 21:53, 4 June 2018 (UTC)

@Daask: I propose a completely formal algorithm for k-fold n-ary attestation, which I would name "mechanical historian". To include any conclusion mentioned in a source:

1. Find k sources of n-ary nature where n is not categorically decided but formally defined by its shortest citation distance to original research or an event (theses and well-sourced news or reports are primary in this system). Citation cycles are removed in source consideration. Non-citing sources are automatically considered questionable and subject to the current rule, i.e. only to be used for facts about itself. Remaining sources which of which any citations do not eventually lead to a event or original research are automatically disqualified as made-up.
2. Mechanically compare all pairs of these k sources, and note the number of conflicting pairs (for a given fact, slightest disagreement or one-sided non-statement is considered conflict for this purpose, two-sided non-statement is excluded from this calculation) for said conclusion, which I would call φ. Number of considered pairs is σ.
3. Truthiness ڪ=max(0,div(σ-kth_root(k,2*φ)-1;(σ+k+1)))^n is the score we want (notice it is damped by number of the sources. This is because further sources are more prone to misstatement.)
4. Only conclusions those can be included are whose kaf scores are greater than a threshold (which could vary according to the field just like k and n) are considered reliable or questionable, anything below it is considered unreliable.
5. A reliable fact can be included by itself without mentioning alternate conclusions, but its full citation chain needs to be included.
6. A fact in "factually questionable" truthiness can be included if and only if no reliable conclusions exist, but all of the questionable conclusions have to be included together and with their full citation chains.
7. Unreliable conclusions cannot be included at all, even if it is about itself, only exception is statement of lack of consensus when no reliable or questionable conclusions exist.

We now have fact-level reliability rather than source-level and the procedure is simplified compared to current notability and reliability guidelines.

Anything passing this tough test as "reliable" is synthesis-safe (i.e. can freely be combined with one another for further conclusion as long as logical rules are followed faithfully), and can be used in further non-primary research in addition to be included into Wikipedia.

Kaf score represents a probabilistic truthiness, and is formulated in a way it is more than or equal to 0, but always less than 1 because nothing can be trusted in an absolute certainty.

It completes in quadratic time per fact, cubic time per article. This is also easily implementable on a bot except for the natural language processing hurdle.

The proposed inclusion criteria is rigorous enough to make Wikipedia a well-formed secondary-source (not the formal definition in the algorithm, but in the historian's sense) encyclopedia without including subjective judgment,  as it is originally intended . "

Applicability and implementation: Implementation of this proposal requires re-scanning of all articles in the project. Erkinalp9035 (talk) 14:08, 5 June 2018 (UTC)

ڪ is for k-t-b which means "to write" in Arabic. Erkinalp9035 (talk) 09:50, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

@Erkinalp9035: I would strongly oppose this proposal and consider it substantially inferior to current guidelines. Secondarily, I also consider it impossible to implement. Issues:

1. Primary source material is frequently mixed with analysis.
2. Analysis material doesn't always cite all the primary material being discussed.
3. Some writers are more authoritative than others; If you're trying to do this automatically, I would expect some sort of weighting by journal impact factor, author h-index, and publisher reputation.
4. The natural language processing hurdle is not trivial.
5. Wikipedia isn't about truth, it's about reporting on what reliable sources say.

I don't think the quality of sources can be adequately assessed by machines. What you describe sounds like it could be a useful tool to assist editors in making judgments. I continue to oppose the synthesis you describe as a form of original research we should never allow on Wikipedia.

Ultimately, I think you're dreaming of a tool that is far from trivial to create, and of questionable use to Wikipedia, as you are proposing different criteria than what we use here. Daask (talk) 15:26, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

@Daask: The proposed guideline would evaluate the sources we currently evaluate "questionable" as unreliable (made-up). "The slightest disagreement counts as conflict" is to avoid improper synthesis, to replace current policy of "... kinds of sources are reliable" (which is very long and frequently leads to WP:IAR, primary purpose of this proposal is reduce instances we need to resort to WP:IAR and avoid drifting the encyclopedia into compendium). If you have a proposal to implement fact-level reliability check without getting into NLP hurdle, go propose. "Analysis material doesn't always cite all the primary material being discussed." They do in natural sciences, applied sciences, linguistics and history (proposed policy is modelled after the method of literary history). Political and behavioral sciences may have different techniques. "Some writers are more authoritative than others" Proposed procedure abolishes it and replaces by "citation distance", h-index and journal impact factor are backlink-dependent, novelty dependent and nonexistent outside scientific literature therefore unusable for historical research which needs to refer to primary or secondary sources in many context. An encyclopedia is an historical artifact, after all. Erkinalp9035 (talk) 12:45, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

Potential replacement for {{Rp}}

FYI

 – Pointer to relevant discussion elsewhere.

The new improvement to <ref>...</ref> proposed at meta:WMDE Technical Wishes/Book referencing/Call for feedback (May 2018) would obviate the need for the {{Rp}} template, as well as provide various other enhancements. The discussion is presently swamped by people who just don't like fully-inline citations and only want to use {{sfn}} and page-bottom referencing, but this is a false dichotomy. The discussion isn't about which citation style is better (the answer to that is "it depends on the article"); the question is whether this feature would be good to have for referencing that is fully inline, and the answer is clearly "yes". I would be delighted if my old {{Rp}} template was finally superseded by an actual (and more tidy) feature of MediaWiki itself.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  22:05, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Would this mean anything for template:r? --Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 22:38, 4 June 2018 (UTC) (please  mention me on reply; thanks!)

Legal problem on Rajoy's article

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Please, may someone who knows about law decide which source is more valid to determine when Mariano Rajoy's term ended? According to the Spanish Constitution (Art. 101) and the date the BOE published the Royal Decrees dismissing Rajoy and appointing Sánchez as Prime Minister, it should have ended on June 2, not on June 1: Art. 101 El Gobierno cesa tras la celebración de elecciones generales, en los casos de pérdida de la confianza parlamentaria previstos en la Constitución, o por dimisión o fallecimiento de su Presidente.

El Gobierno cesante continuará en funciones hasta la toma de posesión del nuevo Gobierno.

https://www.boe.es/boe/dias/2018/06/02/

However, one user hinders me from making the change (June 2 is stated as the date Rajoy's term ended in all other Wikipedias, although I know different-language Wikipedias are independent from each other) and insists on using a chart which appears in LaMoncloa's official website as a legal criterion to determine the date. However, LaMoncloa's website is not a legal source and that chart's data may have even been extracted from Wikipedia itself - workers who are in charge of the page are obviously not lawyers and their main job is to design a beautiful website with useful information and news about the Government, but it is not their aim to specify and solve subtle legal questions of this kind. Thank you and sorry for insisting. I just would like you to understand that the sources that are being used to support that date are not legally valid.

Rajoy's term ended on June 2, not on June 1. It specifically ended when Sánchez became Prime Minister. There cannot be a power vacuum between both days (Pedro Sánchez's term is already said to begin on June 2). The Royal Decrees published in the Official Diary of the State were signed on June 1, but were published the following day, and therefore did not come into force until that same day. The day the decree was signed has no legal validity. Please check how the Decree which made Rajoy Prime Minister in 2011 was also signed one day before it came into force - it was signed on December 20, the day he was elected by the Congress of Deputies, but Rajoy only became Prime Minister one day later, when the Decree was published and he was sworn in. This same article states that his first term began on December 21, so there is an obvious contradiction between both dates, because two different criteria are being followed. I can guarantee you that the correct criterium is the 21 December - 2 June one, which is the one that has been followed to fix the date Rajoy's term began and also to establish the dates when former Spanish Prime Ministers began and finished their terms. Thanks a lot for your attention. Check: http://www.boe.es/boe/dias/2011/12/21/pdfs/BOE-A-2011-19861.pdf

This is not what this site is for. I re-directed you here to seek advice on the source you doubted (that is, La Moncloa's website), not to make a copy-paste of your concerns here, because this is not the place for it.

Just to voice my opinion, what this IP user tries to do is a clear case of WP:SYNTH: he/she is trying to re-interpret different sources in order to imply a conclusion not stated in any one of them (that is, that Rajoy's term ended on 2 June because the Constitution makes a rather unrelated and generic statement).

La Moncloa's website is very clear when fixing Rajoy's term end on 1 June 2018, which is the date in which the motion of no confidence succeeded (which is also one of the causes for a PM to be removed from office, as clearly outlined in Article 101 of the Constitution).

I thereby ask on whether La Moncloa's website, which is the Spanish Government official website, is a reliable source for extracting such a data. Thank you. Impru20^talk 09:20, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

Section 101 1. The Government shall resign after the holding of general elections, in the event of loss of parliamentary confidence as provided in the Constitution, or on the resignation or death of the President. 2. THE OUTGOING GOVERNMENT SHALL CONTINUE AS AN ACTING BODY UNTIL THE NEW GOVERNMENT TAKES OFFICE. Thank you. We'd appreciate your help.

Again: 1) This talk page is not intended for this, but for getting information on the reliability of sources; and 2) Avoid synthesising. Thank you. Impru20^talk 09:47, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

OK, sorry. So if two sources contradict each other, which one is more valid? The Spanish Constitution and the date a Royal Decree was published in the Official Diary of the State (before which no legal act is valid), or an info box published in the Government's official website? (I'd say the latter may contain mistakes because of the proximity of events, but this is a personal assumption). Thank you, I'll wait for your answer.

They are not contradicting each other, because neither the Constitution nor the BOE do establish Rajoy's term end date; they only contradict under your re-interpretation of them. Impru20^talk 10:27, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

Will you please wait for another admin to answer? The Constitution establishes when a Prime Minister's term must end (when the new PM takes office) and the Royal Decree I have mentioned does of course establish Rajoy's term end date - it does not literally say that because it uses a legal language, but it says Rajoy will cease in his functions once the Decree is published, and it was published on June 2. By the way, a legal warning in LaMoncloa's website: Aviso legal www.lamoncloa.gob.es es un dominio en internet de la titularidad del Ministerio de la Presidencia (CIF S-2811001-C). Complejo de la Moncloa 28071 Madrid. Tfno.: 91.321.4000.

El uso del sitio web implica la expresa y plena aceptación de las condiciones aquí expuestas.

Su contenido es meramente informativo y carece de efectos jurídicos vinculantes para la Administración - its content is merely for informational purposes and lacks legal binding effects for the Administration. So which source is more valid? Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.156.8.194 (talk) 10:40, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

it does not literally say that because it uses a legal language Neither literally or unliterally, but at least you acknowledge at least that you're reinterpreting the literal content of the source. The BOE link just says the Royal Decree was signed on 1 June and published on 2 June, thus meaning Rajoy's term could have ended either on 1 June or in 2 June. Normally, an officeholder would wait until his/her successor takes office before being removed, but in this case, Rajoy's term ended when the motion of no confidence was approved, and as such is reflected in La Moncloa's website (take into consideration that this is the first time that a motion of no confidence is successful in Spain. There are no precedents for this). Again you are reinterpreting legal sources to take this off-topic. This is not the place for this discussion, we are already discussing this on Talk:Mariano Rajoy and this page is only for seeking advice on the reliability of sources.

its content is merely for informational purposes and lacks legal binding effects for the Administration. So, do we require sources in Wikipedia to have legal binding effects for the Administration for we to use them? Obviously not. And yet another obvious case of re-interpretation of sources to try to imply conclusions not reached in the sources themselves. Impru20^talk 11:04, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

When a Prime Minister ceases in his functions, it must be covered by a legal source because it's something with clear legal effects, and so you must consult authoritative legal sources in this case, not info boxes from a website. I do not acknowledge I'm reinterpreting information because I'm not, I'm just explaining it doesn't say "RAJOY'S END OF TERM DATE" but "Rajoy shall cease in his functions" and it's published on June 2. Nothing at that level can happen officially if it's not covered by a legal source - no one can resign or be removed from his/her functions until the BOE (the Official Diary of the State) makes it official and legally binding. Please wait for someone else to answer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.156.8.194 (talk) 11:58, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

Look, you are unable to keep on-topic about the Moncloa's website, so I think the best course of action would be to contact La Moncloa itself so that it is them that either confirm or correct their own source. Otherwise, we can't use the unsourced presumptions of an user to present them as facts in Wikipedia. Btw, if you ask me to "please wait for someone else to answer", then please, stop talking to me here, because I'll reply to you whenever you're replying to me. Impru20^talk 12:38, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

OK. Let's wait then. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.156.8.194 (talk) 12:42, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Semi-protected edit request on 18 June 2018

41.190.3.64 (talk) 15:16, 18 June 2018 (UTC)