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Herzel is not Israel's father of the nation, he used to live in Europe, not in Israel. [[Abraham]] called by the jewish people of Israel "Our Father" Therefore I belive that he is the Father of the Nation of Israel. There is no consensus as to who is the father of the Israeli nation, but there is agreement that it is not Herzl. [[User:ברעזרא|ברעזרא]] ([[User talk:ברעזרא|talk]]) 15:03, 30 December 2016 (UTC)
Herzel is not Israel's father of the nation, he used to live in Europe, not in Israel. [[Abraham]] called by the jewish people of Israel "Our Father" Therefore I belive that he is the Father of the Nation of Israel. There is no consensus as to who is the father of the Israeli nation, but there is agreement that it is not Herzl. [[User:ברעזרא|ברעזרא]] ([[User talk:ברעזרא|talk]]) 15:03, 30 December 2016 (UTC)

:Herzl is considered (as well as by the Israeli authorities and public education system) as "choze Ha'medina" meaning "visionary of the state".
:In the list here, different titles are mentioned, not necessarily a literal view of the phrase "Father of the nation" but rather a more essential view, for instance the figure of Savoy is "father of the fatherland", the figure of Cyrus is "Shahanshah" literaly "king of kings" (I had corrected the translation mistake but [[user:בר]] in his revision also undid the correction).
:Herzl is one of two figures which bears a [[Herzl Day|national day]] in Israel. His picture is the only picture presented permanently in the assembly hall in the Knesset. His remains had been moved to the "Great leaders of the nation" plot in the cemetery which also bears his name [[mount Herzl]], as well as his children remains, which had been brought by executive orders and with Israeli public funding.
:Herzl activity is taught as part of the obligatory Israeli high school matriculation in History and "Civic studies". His mentioned to every Israeli high school student (and even earlier) as "visionary of the state" and the person who founded Israel in [[basel]] in 1897.
:Of course as a founder Herzl could not had been born to "his" own creation (Israel). Such a thing would have been [[Anachronism|anachronistic]].
:
:Regarding our father Abraham.
:Abraham has nothing to do with the "state of Israel".
:Abraham is a mythic-biblical figure, relating to him as an historic figure is ridiculous.
:Abraham is considered by Jews (Arabs as well) to be their actual-ethnic father. But Israelis, civilians are not Jews(necessarily)...the expressions 'Israeli' and 'Jew' are by no means a one-to-one injective function...for instance member of Knesset [[Ayman Odeh]], former minister [[Raleb Majadele]], or Israels supreme court judge [[George Karra]], all are naturally Israelis, aren't Jewish.
:Even by "Jewish traditions" The mythological figure of Abraham is not considered as "founder" of Jews. Jews actually relate themselves to the figure of [[Judah (son of Jacob)]]. As well the academic research differ between two historic kingdoms (of ethnic and theological relation) "Israel" and "Judea".
:None the less, in Jewish tradition (the bible) Abraham is not mentioned alone as "our actual-ethnic father" but alongside one of his sons [[Isaac]] and alongside the matriarchs [[Sarah]], [[Rebecca]], [[Leah]], [[Rachel]], and of course the patriarch [[Jacob]] or in his "god given name" Israel.

For the claims regarding Herzl I brought extensive citation, yet user:בר, feels like wikipedia (English) is his as owned by him as the Hebrew wikipedia.
[[User:Dovole|Dovole]] ([[User talk:Dovole|talk]]) 18:04, 29 January 2019 (UTC)


== External links modified ==
== External links modified ==

Revision as of 18:04, 29 January 2019

Scope of page

This page was deleted previously and redirected to Pater Patriae, because it had filled up with a lot of dubious claims. It's easy to find a blog, or even a reputable historian, arguing that person X is the "father of" country Y. That is not sufficient proof for listing person X on this page, because one person's opinion is not encyclopaedic. What is needed is the claim that, within a country, person X is widely regarded or officially designated as "father of the nation". In other words, if you were to go to country Y, and ask a few people on the street "Who is 'the father of the nation'?" most of the people would not hesitate to answer person X.

There might in principle be up to three subsections:

  1. people popularly/officially called "father of the nation" or similar, recognised in a non-partisan way (e.g. Gandhi, maybe Kenyatta)
  2. monarchies etc. where "father of the nation" is part of the traditional honorific for whoever the current incumbent is (e.g. maybe Thailand, Cambodia)
  3. current and past dictators who have called themselves "father of the nation", where the appellation does not have any support outside their regime. (e.g. Mobutu, maybe Arap Moi)

I don't know, for example, whether modern Russians recognise Peter the Great as "Father of the Nation": the current citation is historic only. jnestorius(talk) 00:14, 9 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Napoleon?

See page 34 of his Correspondances of 26 mars 1815: "...le nom de Pere de la Patria.... Sincerely, --A NobodyMy talk 05:12, 16 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Removing Gandhi

This Article Clarifies Article 18 (1) of Indian Constitution does not permit any titles except education and military ones and Govt never granted Father of the nation title to Gandhi --AniVar (talk) 13:34, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Nelson Mandela?

Why is Nelson Mandela not listed? He is very widely referred to in South African media as the "father of the nation" meaning the father of post-apartheid democratic South Africa. This accolade became particularly common since his retirement. Together with the English phrase the Xhosa phrase "Tata wethu" (father of the nation) is very widely used in praise poetry and even ordinary speech or text honoring or even simply referring to him. Roger (talk) 21:19, 22 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Nevermind, I've added him. Roger (talk) 21:53, 22 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thatcher???

I know that the "Iron Lady" is revered by many, but who has named her "Mother of the Nation"?

Considering the divisive "love her or hate her"-status of the late Prime Minister, I think her inclusion here really needs an exact source.

Mojowiha (talk) 17:22, 12 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, and there's also the fact that she, in no way, shape, or form, was involved in the founding of the United Kingdom... SteelMarinerTalk 08:32, 23 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed merge with Landsfaderen and Landsmoderen

Landsfaderen and Landsmoderen are just father and mother of the nation in Norwegian. It's unclear how the Norwegian terms are notable on their own. It makes more sense to include them in the larger article on the term "father of the nation." Tchaliburton (talk) 21:59, 7 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Kim il Sung

Should Kim be inserted?--2601:586:C201:642A:88BD:D261:E936:ABB9 (talk) 02:45, 24 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Stephen I of Hungary as "Father of the Nation"

Yes, Stephen I (populary known as Szent István in Hungary) is credited with founding the first Hungarian state in the Western sense, the Kingdom of Hungary. But he is never mentioned as "Father of the Nation" or "founder of the Hungarian nation". He lived in the early 11th century, the concept of the nation in the modern sense did not even exist at the time. The kingdom he established with the help of the Roman Pope and German Emperor was not a nation kingdom, it was always a multi-ethnic kingdom. The word "nemzetalapító" is never applied to him, at best "országalapító", which means "Founder of the *Country*", which is not the same. The "Father of the Nation" title is mostly given to 19th or 20th century statesmen, who more than anybody else contributed to form a nation, achieved independence or unified their nation into a nation state. This is certainly not what Stephen I of Hungary did. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.182.176.28 (talk) 05:19, 21 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Ben Gurion, de Valera, Nehru?

Wouldn't David Ben Gurion, Eamon de Valera, and Jawaharlal Nehru be considered "fathers" of the modern State of Israel, the Republic of Ireland, and India respectively? If we're thinking of someone who was 1) the country's first leader/head of state; 2) very influential in his nation's founding; or 3) both, all three seem to fit the description here. Foreignshore (talk) 21:58, 18 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Israel's father of the nation

Herzel is not Israel's father of the nation, he used to live in Europe, not in Israel. Abraham called by the jewish people of Israel "Our Father" Therefore I belive that he is the Father of the Nation of Israel. There is no consensus as to who is the father of the Israeli nation, but there is agreement that it is not Herzl. ברעזרא (talk) 15:03, 30 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Herzl is considered (as well as by the Israeli authorities and public education system) as "choze Ha'medina" meaning "visionary of the state".
In the list here, different titles are mentioned, not necessarily a literal view of the phrase "Father of the nation" but rather a more essential view, for instance the figure of Savoy is "father of the fatherland", the figure of Cyrus is "Shahanshah" literaly "king of kings" (I had corrected the translation mistake but user:בר in his revision also undid the correction).
Herzl is one of two figures which bears a national day in Israel. His picture is the only picture presented permanently in the assembly hall in the Knesset. His remains had been moved to the "Great leaders of the nation" plot in the cemetery which also bears his name mount Herzl, as well as his children remains, which had been brought by executive orders and with Israeli public funding.
Herzl activity is taught as part of the obligatory Israeli high school matriculation in History and "Civic studies". His mentioned to every Israeli high school student (and even earlier) as "visionary of the state" and the person who founded Israel in basel in 1897.
Of course as a founder Herzl could not had been born to "his" own creation (Israel). Such a thing would have been anachronistic.
Regarding our father Abraham.
Abraham has nothing to do with the "state of Israel".
Abraham is a mythic-biblical figure, relating to him as an historic figure is ridiculous.
Abraham is considered by Jews (Arabs as well) to be their actual-ethnic father. But Israelis, civilians are not Jews(necessarily)...the expressions 'Israeli' and 'Jew' are by no means a one-to-one injective function...for instance member of Knesset Ayman Odeh, former minister Raleb Majadele, or Israels supreme court judge George Karra, all are naturally Israelis, aren't Jewish.
Even by "Jewish traditions" The mythological figure of Abraham is not considered as "founder" of Jews. Jews actually relate themselves to the figure of Judah (son of Jacob). As well the academic research differ between two historic kingdoms (of ethnic and theological relation) "Israel" and "Judea".
None the less, in Jewish tradition (the bible) Abraham is not mentioned alone as "our actual-ethnic father" but alongside one of his sons Isaac and alongside the matriarchs Sarah, Rebecca, Leah, Rachel, and of course the patriarch Jacob or in his "god given name" Israel.

For the claims regarding Herzl I brought extensive citation, yet user:בר, feels like wikipedia (English) is his as owned by him as the Hebrew wikipedia. Dovole (talk) 18:04, 29 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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