Talk:Druid

Human sacrifice?

Interesting write up on the ancient druids but there are things stated as facts that come to us 2nd hand .. actually all information is 2nd hand really as neither the Celts nor druids prescribed to a written language.

One thing I definitely take exception to is Julius Caesar's account of "human sacrifice" and the mention or the barbarity of it WHEN what else was the colosseum in many ways.. and also Rome was sacked by the Celts (or rather a tribe of it) before the decline of Rome and the raw hatred for this act since it showed the weakness of Rome I believe makes anything suspect in regards to druids or the Celts.

Of course sadly we don't have time machines (as yet anyway and hopefully never as humans have issues moving one way in time in a specified time increment and I shudder to think of the damage we could and would do)..

I just wish the right up said this as proof of anything is impossible and believing the Roman excerpts difficult since the "druid" religion was the only one that was truly systematically attacked and destroyed by the Roman empire and it's conquests Shaman1996 (talk) 17:57, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

The article seems reasonably even-handed, and careful to ascribe the description to Classical sources (at one point even saying that Caesar "alleged" this). Given the archaeological evidence, I would oppose opining that Classical writers had an ulterior motive in inventing this. -- Elphion (talk) 21:37, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

A couple of corrections/clarifications... the druids *were* apparently literate but deliberately chose not to (or were required not to) commit their knowledge to writing. Julius Caesar's account of sacrificial practices is actually quite matter of fact. He's neutral about it. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 10:17, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

I've restored Chadwick, who is unquestionably a Reliable Source. We need to retain NPOV here; the truth is we really don't know how the Druids were involved in human sacrifice (although it's reasonably clear that it was practiced in pre-Christian Europe over time by several peoples, including Celts, Germans, and Romans. -- Elphion (talk) 13:23, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

I've reverted it again, but am not closed to replacing it... we need to bear in mind the age of the source Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources#Age matters. Fifty years is a long, long time in academia. We have had Gournay, Ribemont, Lindow all since then. At present the article is (IMO) too discursive for an encyclopedia article and we would be better putting the he said/she saids in footnotes... Catfish Jim and the soapdish 13:49, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

Discursive or not, whether Druids were involved in human sacrifice is something of a flashpoint, and you are, in effect, sweeping the controversy under the rug. If modern scholarship goes against Chadwick, then you need to say that, with references. Otherwise, the view that Druids' hands are clean will only surface again. -- Elphion (talk) 13:58, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

Okay, I'll modify this to make it more encyclopedic but retain mention that it's controversial. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 14:27, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

Peat bogs and lakes amongst are common places to find sacrifice yet these persons freely accepted death.We plant timecapsules and because all victims are in liminal places,most drowned,garroted and throat slit signifies a warning as we uncover timecapsule archeology on a people's we know little about due to history.I am druid and have walked in solitary(hermetic) for 17 years.All human sacrifice was commonplace in neolithic and earlier times as J.G Fraser remarks THE GOLDEN BOUGH.Winners write history those who know history disrupt bias,I as druid am not neo but ancient I am 10,000 years old via landscape geomantic reading.I am a non-dualistic solitarian druid who accepts the acorn and shunning of those like me over millennials has been consistent,as a recognized religion law states it can not be taught in R.E due to a 16+ age and parental consent laws!!! This is shunning and highly targeting of a minority religious culture.Wake up a 6th bce Greek works references druids as 'masters of civilization,supernatural and levitate,the invisibility cloak is also attributed.levitation is simply inspiring sophisticated thought and debate.Invisible cloak points at our belief in telepathy (proven as I am v2k T.I akin to Julian Assange.As for civilization scholars are now accepting the druids hold huge power in regards to being the monkey in the valley of the tiger.Human sacrifice pertains via psychological torture upon druids and like minded peace loving folk,v2k is beyond doubt targeting those if us who are aware everybody is a sacrificial token in this game,druids more so.So to nail sacrifice down is to accept mercy killing to hold knowledge and lead by example,one does not fear death when aware of death being another dimension,hence liminal place burials.No records of any druidic massacre exists that is not bias and used as propaganda by Christendom.Druuds would have given Glastonbury to the christians persecuted by Rome,144,000 is Glastonbury's measure.The Eurocentric lie leads from such thought and albinism remains shunned on west of Africa this is how I believe white melatonin landed in U.K.Isle of Wight means white ghost whilst the Albion is ancient word for U.K with the dover cliffs relating albino (of white).Many have been sacrificed to ensure one rare albinistic gene trait survives with all other albinism expanding from this 1percent natural twist of fate.Albino forearms are prized magical asserts for tribal folk uneducated in modern melatonin albinism.All ancient times saw sacrifice yet religion was distorted ensuring mass genocides till today via IMC slow kill.Much is not understood on druids simy via lack of awareness and acceptance of poor archeology and bias accounts Wo22y (talk) 01:19, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

Peat bogs and lakes amongst are common places to find sacrifice yet these persons freely accepted death.We plant timecapsules and because all victims are in liminal places,most drowned,garroted and throat slit signifies a warning as we uncover timecapsule archeology on a people's we know little about due to history.I am druid and have walked in solitary(hermetic) for 17 years.All human sacrifice was commonplace in neolithic and earlier times as J.G Fraser remarks THE GOLDEN BOUGH.Winners write history those who know history disrupt bias,I as druid am not neo but ancient I am 10,000 years old via landscape geomantic reading.I am a non-dualistic solitarian druid who accepts the acorn and shunning of those like me over millennials has been consistent,as a recognized religion law states it can not be taught in R.E due to a 16+ age and parental consent laws!!! This is shunning and highly targeting of a minority religious culture.Wake up a 6th bce Greek works references druids as 'masters of civilization,supernatural and levitate,the invisibility cloak is also attributed.levitation is simply inspiring sophisticated thought and debate.Invisible cloak points at our belief in telepathy (proven as I am v2k T.I akin to Julian Assange.As for civilization scholars are now accepting the druids hold huge power in regards to being the monkey in the valley of the tiger.Human sacrifice pertains via psychological torture upon druids and like minded peace loving folk,v2k is beyond doubt targeting those if us who are aware everybody is a sacrificial token in this game,druids more so.So to nail sacrifice down is to accept mercy killing to hold knowledge and lead by example,one does not fear death when aware of death being another dimension,hence liminal place burials.No records of any druidic massacre exists that is not bias and used as propaganda by Christendom.Druuds would have given Glastonbury to the christians persecuted by Rome,144,000 is Glastonbury's measure.The Eurocentric lie leads from such thought and albinism remains shunned on west of Africa this is how I believe white melatonin landed in U.K.Isle of Wight means white ghost whilst the Albion is ancient word for U.K with the dover cliffs relating albino (of white).Many have been sacrificed to ensure one rare albinistic gene trait survives with all other albinism expanding from this 1percent natural twist of fate.Albino forearms are prized magical asserts for tribal folk uneducated in modern melatonin albinism.All ancient times saw sacrifice yet religion was distorted ensuring mass genocides till today via IMC slow kill.Much is not understood on druids simy via lack of awareness and acceptance of poor archeology and bias accounts Wo22y (talk) 01:19, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

The 144,000 is the witness to god in Bible script yet druidically this refuge was given.why?Druids had never heard of such morality given Christ fulfilled self prophecy to change power by example.Though druids learnt assisting folk lore into judiciary today where the scene of a trial is defendant paraded as Christ,Santos Bonnacci astro theology!!As civilization makers and creators the green Man is in many churches and cathedrals in U.K.Alien green men from U.S.A reeks of mutation of pagan green Man as aliens of green,colour of jealousy and narure EXCUSE SPELLING ETC FIRST TIME New scientist /the miracle of morality/ one source of moral druid Wo22y (talk) 01:32, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

For scholastic purposes the answers are there but require a non bias explanation,our druidic oral history spins magic into a corrupted world of institutional ism Wo22y (talk) 01:37, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

This article needs some work...

...and I'll play about with it over the next few days. There are problems with balance and POV... it looks like there has been a fair bit of editing by someone with an agenda to discredit modern day people who identify as druids. Whatever your opinion about "neo-druids", this is supposed to be an encyclopedic article about pre-roman celtic druids and any discussion of the modern day groups should be limited to a section on legacy. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 00:16, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

Jim, the "Major editing in progress" template is only appropriate if you're doing an intensive editing session for, say, a few hours and want to avoid an edit conflict. It's not for leaving up for several days in a row. When you're done with an editing session or taking a break for more than a few moments, please remove it. Thanks. As it looks like you haven't edited in a few hours, I'm removing it for now. Also, we have our own words in Celtic languages; let's not bring in all that new age "shamanism" stuff. - CorbieV ^☊ ☼ 21:37, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

Hi Corbie, Yeah... had some home computer issues that are making editing a tad difficult so I was a bit slower than intended. It looks better as you've left it. I'm a little uneasy about the "Celtic cultures" thing for the usual reasons. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 00:35, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

Continuing to make edits... problems I perceive with the article:

1. It's not written in an encyclopedic style, reading more like an undergraduate essay.
2. There is a lot of unnecessary detail in the main body of text that would be better placed in foot notes, making it difficult to read.
3. Out of date references that do not accurately reflect current state of understanding of subject.
4. Romanticism and "Neo-druid" section are too long, given there is a separate article.

Unless anyone raises an objection I'll continue to try to improve matters. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 12:09, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

I object to the statement I am a legacy in a neo state!! I am druid,if you walk,talk and hold ethical morality you are a druid.The awen is a huge symbol(in antiquity) upgraded by Iolo Morganwg the awen is as strong as is the nature that fuels it.I shall be adding to druidic writings myself when out of poverty via targeting.17 years hermetically leaves my awen largely unbias,with 70% choosing solitary path!! Wo22y (talk) 01:46, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

Diodorus

Does anyone know where the unreferenced quote from Diodorus Siculus comes from?

These men predict the future by observing the flight and calls of birds and by the sacrifice of holy animals: all orders of society are in their power... and in very important matters they prepare a human victim, plunging a dagger into his chest; by observing the way his limbs convulse as he falls and the gushing of his blood, they are able to read the future.

I have found the following translation in Bibliotheka Historia, but it doesn't quite follow the above.

These people [Celts] are of a most terrible aspect, and have a most dreadful and loud voice. In their converse they are sparing of their words, and speak many things darkly and figuratively. They are high and hyperbolical in trumpeting out their own praises, but speak slightly and contemptibly of others. They are apt to menace others, self-opiniated, grievously provoking, of sharp wits, and apt to learn.

Among them they have poets that sing melodious songs, whom they call bards, who to their musical instruments like unto harps, chant forth the praises of some, and the dispraises of others.

There are likewise among them philosophers and divines, whom they call Saronidæ [Druids], and are held in great veneration and esteem. Prophets [Ovates] likewise they have, whom they highly honour, who foretell future events by viewing the entrails of the sacrifices, and to these soothsayers all the people generally are very observant.

When they are to consult on some great and weighty matter, they observe a most strange and incredible custom; for they sacrifice a man, striking him with a sword near the diaphragm, crossover his breast, who being thus slain, and falling down, they judge of the event from the manner of his fall, the convulsion of his members, and the flux of blood; and this has gained among them (by long and antient usage) a firm credit and belief.

It is not lawful to otter any sacrifice without a philosopher; for they hold that by these, as men acquainted with the nature of the deity, and familiar in their converse with the gods, they ought to present their thank-offerings, and by these ambassadors to desire such things as are good for them. These Druids and Bards are observed and obeyed, not only in times of peace, but war also, both by friends and enemies.

Many times these philosophers and poets, stepping in between two near at hand, when they are just ready to engage, with their swords drawn, and spears presented one against another, have pacified them, as if some wild beasts had been tamed by enchantments. Time's rage is mastered by wisdom, even amongst the most savage barbarians, and Mars himself reverences the Muses.

Catfish Jim and the soapdish 14:52, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

DRU-ides

The origin of word DRU-ides most likely comes from Albanian language. DRU in Albanian in general mean Tree or Wood. Going through a Greek source and turn to an epithet this word took the greek particle "ides" which turn it to DRU-IDES. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.55.81.58 (talk) 15:59, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

Why do you suspect Greek got the word from Albanian, and not the other way around? Or both from common descent from IE? -- Elphion (talk) 16:12, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

To find that you should check greek (old and new) dictionary. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.55.81.58 (talk) 16:19, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

I have. There is no mention of Albanian. The received opinion appears to be that the Mediterranean world borrowed the word (referring specifically to the Druids) from Gaulish (which of course also has the common IE root referring to trees generally and oaks in particular). -- Elphion (talk) 16:24, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

In the old Greek dictionary there is no mention of Greek as well, as the " greek " word comes from Roman Empire describing part of what is today south of Albania and north of modern Greek. The fact that Albanian language heritated this from the mother language "IE", and no other has it in this form, does make the Albanian language automatically the source. Does the greek workd Ksylo sound to you like IE or like Semitic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.55.81.58 (talk) 16:36, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

Yes, the Greek word for Druid comes from Latin, which comes from Gaulish (and does not involve the Greek suffix -ides, but includes a Gaulish root wido-, connoting "to know": the Druids were "knowers of trees"). Greek also inherited the dru- root from IE; it appears in several Greek words. ξυλον (wooden material, board, stick) probably came from a pre-Hellenic language of Greece or Crete, along with many other words for building materials (and words in -nth, like "plinth"). I see no evidence that any of these came specifically from Albanian. -- Elphion (talk) 17:00, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

I agree, the origin of words, particularly those of ancient times, is often impossible to determine. Similarity to a word or grammatical form is not sufficient evidence to form a definite conclusion on this point. Mediatech492 (talk) 17:24, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

Druids

I notice that your discussion of modern understandings of Druids does not cover criticisms of the standard view. Below, please find the URL to a recent article, parts of which may warrant inclusion in your article.

https://theconversation.com/britannia-druids-and-the-surprisingly-modern-origins-of-myths-89979 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.185.100.226 (talk) 00:32, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

Tribal variations

I think an important consideration that does not seem to be covered here is that there were many different tribes all over the territory of Western Europe and Britain. There has to have been a great variety and many differences in the practices of the tribes. A druid of a tribe in Southern Germany would very likely had much variation from a Druid in Northern Scotland. For example, there could be human sacrifice in one area and not in another, divination using bird flights in areas of north-western France and divination by casting bones in the coastal region of Italy. Druids could be more philosophical in one tribe and more king-like in a different tribe, they could wear crowns of snake eggs in Wales and necklaces of acorns in Denmark. (I use present day geographic for ease of description.) To further illustrate my point: in present day Nicaragua there are approximately 27 different tribes and tribal languages. In discussion druids of over 1000 years I think it is important to keep in mind that there was a great variety of tribes and practices; not one, united Druidism. Even if, for arguments sake we call it religion, Druidism, like present day christianity, has a multitude of variation.2601:448:C380:57F1:81BD:A5D6:6D6C:6510 (talk) 20:39, 29 March 2019 (UTC)