Talk:The Fame Monster

Suggested Edit

Reference #116 is a broken link, it leads to a "not found" page on the billboard website A possible replacement that holds the same info would be lady gaga's US 200 year end chart history page which can be found at http://www.billboard.com/artist/306341/lady-gaga/chart?f=412 and holds the relevant information to the reference. Sconosciute (talk) 21:29, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Done I used an archive url instead. Thanks, Stickee (talk) 23:03, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Proposed merge with So Happy I Could Die

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Fails WP:NSONGS. Not enough coverage from reliable secondary sources outside of album reviews to warrant a separate article. The most it gets is brief mentions outside of such reviews. Can easily be summarized with a paragraph or two in this article. Snuggums (talk / edits) 19:01, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

I don't think it should be merged as it doesn't exactly go together. It will be easier to find as it's own page. User:Adamtb24 20:29, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

That article is already GA and well written. I don't see real reasons to merge. GagaNutella^talk 04:48, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

If I'm going to be honest, that shouldn't have been promoted in the first place as it's little more than a content fork. No meaningful content that can't be included here. As for whether it "goes together", song articles are quite often summarized in parent album articles (which includes EP's and reissues). Snuggums (talk / edits) 18:57, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

I can see pros and cons of both. —Indian:BIO ^{[ ChitChat ]} 19:00, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose merge. This is a well-written, short article and deserves to be kept. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 23:08, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

• Prose quality and length are irrelevant in this case. It doesn't "deserve to be kept" when fails WP:Notability (music)#Songs for not having more than brief mentions in any reliable sources outside of album reviews. Snuggums (talk / edits) 01:26, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

• In my opinion, the song meets notability per WP:GNG. I don't think upmerging an entire Good article into a couple sentences on the album article is making Wikipedia better. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 15:15, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

• It doesn't exactly get enough commentary from quality sources to meet GNG either, but as you very well know, the relevant notability criteria for song articles is WP:NSONGS. The specific notability criteria for songs exists for very good reason and is what should be applied to song articles. As stated before, it really shouldn't have become GA in the first place as it's just a content fork with no meaningful content that can't be summarized in parent album article. Snuggums (talk / edits) 20:07, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

• Alright, well, agree to disagree. I believe the song passes WP:GNG and hope the article is kept. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 16:37, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

• I, as well, Oppose merge. The article has "good article" status, so it would be quite silly, not to mention unfortunate, for Wikipedia to lose an article. This article is extremely well written. Well, that's my opinion anyway. Carbrera (talk) 02:55, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

• OK I give in, I was on the fence but I believe this just passes enough notability to be kept standalone. —Indian:BIO ^{[ ChitChat ]} 11:14, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

NOTE TO CONSIDER: prose quality is irrelevant to WP:Notability. It also doesn't matter in this instance how long or short the song article is. Album reviews DO NOT COUNT as sufficient coverage for songs per WP:Notability (music), and even if they did, none of the references listed in that article give it more than a few sentences and neither do any other quality sources available. Maybe standards were different when it became "good article", but don't let that fool you now; it shouldn't have been promoted in the first place as it is a needless content fork with no significant independent content and doesn't meet notability criteria in any way, shape, or form. The idea of an "unfortunate" loss also doesn't really have any merit. There so far has been no solid evidence demonstrating independent notability. This would require multiple reliable secondary sources independent of album reviews that consist of more than just a passing mention or only a few sentences. For reasons beyond my knowledge, there have so far only been (unconvincing) attempts to mask the lack of notability. Snuggums (talk / edits) 20:49, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

I have read your points Snuggums, and I disagree. Pretty sure the references don't give it a fleeting mention. There is independent coverage regarding the song itself and the fact that it had multiple chart placements in WP:GOODCHARTS as well. Coupled with the fact that it passes WP:NSONGS point #1 is enough reason to keep it, as well as since "Notability aside, a standalone article is only appropriate when there is enough material to warrant a reasonably detailed article; articles unlikely ever to grow beyond stubs should be merged to articles about an artist or album." —Indian:BIO ^{[ ChitChat ]} 11:13, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

I would even argue that "Teeth" is the article that warrants this discussion about WP:NSONGS since it fails on all counts. —Indian:BIO ^{[ ChitChat ]} 11:14, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

Yes, "Teeth" does fail notability. Where is the quality amount of independent coverage for "So Happy I Could Die", though? I haven't come across that anywhere (not counting brief mentions). Snuggums (talk / edits) 15:49, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

::::SNUGGUMS you are right, I was kinda under the impression that except what Gaga said about the song, there were other third party sources, turns out they were just blog or wikia pieces. I'm afraid I would have to support the merge of this article now. However, in the same discussion I would also like to analyze the fate of "Teeth" also. —Indian:BIO ^{[ ChitChat ]} 09:38, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

That article is also mostly filled with album reviews, and of the few independent pieces it does get, those are either based on the notoriously unreliable TMZ or only get at most a short paragraph or two. Even the album reviews don't seem to go into very much detail on the track either. I say that "Teeth" should also be merged here. Snuggums (talk / edits) 14:37, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

I agree if SNUGGUMS promises to take care of the back links lol, I always mess it up. —Indian:BIO ^{[ ChitChat ]} 15:38, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

Note – I'm not comfortable yet to have this within the three of us, I want to have it in AFD or through an Rfc to have it finalized. —Indian:BIO ^{[ ChitChat ]} 14:21, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

• I'm striking out my merge decision because I can see that there are somewhat critical analysis of the song in books and academic inputs now. This leads me to believe that the article, which is borderline on WP:NSONGS can work as a standalone article. Not sure about "Teeth" still. —IB ^{[ Poke ]} 19:24, 26 January 2016 (UTC)
  • Another Believer can I ask your help in expanding the SHICD article from the sources I listed? —IB ^{[ Poke ]} 10:14, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
    • You are referring to these sources? ---Another Believer _(Talk) 15:37, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
      • Yeah, the book sources give some independent info. —IB ^{[ Poke ]} 15:38, 25 February 2016 (UTC)
        • I'm starting today on the sources AB/SNUGs. —IB ^{[ Poke ]} 11:03, 1 March 2016 (UTC)
          • Closing this discussing, both "Teeth" and "So Happy I Could Die" has enough independent content to have their own article. —IB ^{[ Poke ]} 18:58, 6 March 2016 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"Teeth" chart?

The lead paragraph says "Teeth" charted, but does not provide a reference or mention a chart history in the article's prose. Is there evidence to support this? ---Another Believer _(Talk) 23:15, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

Update: A reference was provided on the talk page for "Teeth". ---Another Believer _(Talk) 15:00, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 November 2015

I request to add the Lenght at the Japanese Bonus DVD. I've got it and I'm sure of this information: Bad Romance (Video) 5:15 Bad Romance (Making Of) 3:42 Thanks Marco Gerola (talk) 18:30, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

Done Stickee (talk) 02:03, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

The Fame Monster is an album

The page needs to be changed to reflect that TFM is a full album, not an EP. The wikipedia definition of an EP is a record of five songs or less, or under 25 minutes long. TFM is 35 minutes long and has 8 tracks. Gaga herself calls it an album, and it was nominated for album of the year. There is absolutely no reason to call it an EP. Please change it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.86.97.25 (talk) 02:03, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure Wikipedia doesn't have a "definition" for EP: it depends solely on what it's called. While I agree that this should be called an album considering repeated evidence of artistic intent, many sources called it an EP. Since Wikipedia prefers to avoid controversy, it's wrongly listed as an EP for "neutrality". 181.115.9.117 (talk) 19:29, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

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The Fame Monster's Impact / Legacy

This is the one of the most impactful albums of the last decade, and yet there is nothing on this page acknowledging the effect it had on the music industry. It has "Recognition" part, which is excellent, but it deserves also to have "Legacy" or "Impact".

Let me state the obvious, with The Fame (Monster) Lady Gaga made dance music relevant and mainstream in 2008 and after. Here is an article by MTV: "LADY GAGA HAS MADE DANCE MUSIC MAINSTREAM, DJ TOMMIE SUNSHINE SAYS". Quotes: "Anybody that is in South Beach right now that discredits Lady Gaga for what she has done for electronic music is out of their mind," Sunshine said. Also: "I mean [Gaga producer] Red One and Space Cowboy and her, in collaboration, have done so much for making dance music mainstream." and "I'm sorry, but there wouldn't be a David Guetta top 10 hit ... there wouldn't be this Black Eyed Peas record, if it wasn't for The Fame. The influence of that record is epic, and we are hearing talking about all of this because of that." He also continued by talking about the song "Telephone" and its video: "That's a dance track! That is the 'Thriller' of our time, you know. And there is all this hubbub about it. I haven't seen that kind of [excitement] over a video in 20 years." Link: http://www.mtv.com/news/1634676/lady-gaga-has-made-dance-music-mainstream-dj-tommie-sunshine-says/

Article by Kevin C. Johnson from St. Louis Post-Dispatch: "Lady Gaga helps bring EDM to the masses". Quotes: "Lady Gaga, performing at Scottrade Center on Saturday as part of her “Born This Way Ball,” plays a big part in EDM.", "She definitely has had influence," & "I think Lady Gaga is exposing people to the music, and anybody exposing people to it is part of the machine," says Rob Lemon, a St. Louis EDM DJ. Mohabbat agrees: "People like Gaga and Black Eyed Peas and these pop stars are really what drove this movement as big as it is now. They are the ones who brought it to the masses, especially when there is a remix.", "DJ Madeon is gaining a whole new fan base thanks to Gaga. He disagrees with artists who disapprove of the marriage of pop and EDM.", "It all helps. You start out listening to Lady Gaga’s dance sounds and move your way up and find other sounds," he says. "In this case, the trickle-down theory actually works." Link: http://www.stltoday.com/entertainment/music/lady-gaga-helps-bring-edm-to-the-masses/article_6ab888b5-5ef6-5cb1-9946-b70556915a5b.html

The Atlantic's Jonathan Bogart: "Buy the Hype: Why Electronic Dance Music Really Could Be the New Rock". Quotes: "The narrative of new music has so often been one of building from a despised underground after years of struggle, rip-off, and hustle to mass popularity. But EDM came in by no back door but right through the front gate, with Lady Gaga's "Just Dance" in late 2008." and "The sound didn't take long to spread: the takeover was complete by the time Ke$ha's unutterably dumb and technologically astute "TiK ToK" began 2010 at the top of the charts." Link: https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2012/07/buy-the-hype-why-electronic-dance-music-really-could-be-the-new-rock/259597/

In this Beats 1 Radio, Zane Lowe and Calvin Harris talk about Gaga's influence with The Fame (Monster) album. Zane Lowe says: "Mike Skinner (Vocalist from the band "The Streets") told me this, cause we were having a debate about Lady Gaga and he was like "One thing you gotta remember about Lady Gaga she put four-on-the-floor back on American radio." Calvin Harris: "Yeah, her and will.i.am". Zane Lowe: "Up until that moment there was nothing resembling four-on-the-floor in pop music." Calvin Harris: "A 100%. They even had a hip-hop version of Poker Face, for radio." Zane Lowe: "Cause they couldn't handle the dance groove?" Calvin Harris: "Yeah they made two versions and then it was the 4/4 one that hit, and then it just went ridiculous". Here is the link to the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBO4kQHz0mE The conversation starts at 16:04.

Here is another interview also on Beats 1 Radio with Zane Lowe, this time with Lady Gaga herself in which she says: "When I put Just Dance out, there was nothing on the radio like Just Dance". Then Zane tells the "Mike Skinner" story, and adds "You were "Pre-DM" (Pre EDM)", "You certainly put some of the good stuff on the radio. It's true, that was the first time four-on-the-floor came back on radio in America". Gaga goes on to say how all her lead singles are sounding like nothing on the radio and that "it's never gonna be what's happening". Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in4jUYCnNDQ Starts at: 25:12.

Billboard's Andrew Unterberger wrote an amazing article: "Lady Gaga: How She Raised the Standards for Ambition in Pop". Quotes: "It didn't take long for Lady Gaga to prove that she was the asteroid pop music was begging to have crash through it. Debut single "Just Dance" topped the Hot 100 for three weeks in early 2009, and "Poker Face" made her two-for-two a couple months later." He then wrote how big of an impact she had on her contemporaries: "But other pop stars have picked up the slack. Kanye West, the one contemporaneous Top 40 fixture whose big-thinking could've rivaled Gaga's at her peak stepped up his game even further after her arrival, blowing his music videos into 35-minute short films and eventually expanding the art form to include live projections and stadium premieres.", "Former co-star Beyoncé also went through a conceptual makeover, eventually reviving interest in both the music video and the LP format with her self-titled surprise visual album.", "Rihanna released her weirdest album a year after Gaga's breakthrough and was never quite the same after." and "Even Britney -- who "Telephone" was initially written for -- ended up trying to make her own version of the song's video." Also added: "She took American mainstream music at one of its least-interesting and most star-power-deprived moments and made it bigger, weirder, more visual and infinitely more personality-driven -- in other words, much more fun." Link: http://www.billboard.com/articles/columns/pop/7548935/lady-gaga-pop-ambition-kanye-beyonce

With this album, Lady Gaga didn't just had an impact with her music, but she also started a trend in the pop world with wearing outrageous outfits. The critics called this The 'Lady Gaga' Effect, and it became a part of the music industry vernacular.

Page Six's Jarett Wieselman wrote an article: "The ‘Lady GaGa’ effect persists", in which he says: "I’ve repeatedly hypothesized that the success and adoration bestowed upon Lady GaGa has led every female celebrity to assume that whether or not she cultivates a quirky personality, her options for fashion forwardness are limitless!" and "Previously, PopWrap’s cited Rihanna, Ke$ha and Kelis for following in Lady Gaga’s crab-heeled footsteps and now we can add two more names to that list: Jennifer Love Hewitt and songbird Paloma Faith." Link: http://pagesix.com/2010/02/22/the-lady-gaga-effect-persists/

Jezebel's Tracie Egan Morrissey wrote an article back in 2011: "The Red Carpet Reeks Of Lady Gaga's Influence", "Ever since Lady Gaga came on the scene with her bizarre masks, tall hats and concept outfits, everyone thinks looking like an idiot on the red carpet is a sign of artistic integrity.", "Nicki Minaj has a horrible case of Gaga-itis.", "Katy Perry has been into playful red-carpet looks for a while now, but she's typically more theme park than haute couture, as evidenced by the first two outfits here. But the cube on her head is totally her attempt at being avant fashion-y." Link: http://jezebel.com/5835339/lady-gagas-influence-can-be-seen-all-over-vma-red-carpet/

Buzzfeed's Matt Stopera: "Popstars Before And After Gaga" in which he says: "Whether you like her or not, you can’t deny the impact she’s had on the music industry." and there are photos comparing the style of pop stars (Katy Perry, Rihanna, Beyoncé, Christina Aguilera & Nicki Minaj) before and after Gaga's arrival. Link: https://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/popstars-before-and-after-gaga?utm_term=.akWm2LAw0#.ba5e5OadB HuffPost also agreed with Buzzfeed by sharing their article on the HuffPost website: "Lady Gaga’s Impact On Pop Stars: Before And After". Link: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/01/lady-gagas-impact-on-pop-_n_990129.html

MTV article by Chris Yuscavage: IS NICKI MINAJ THE HIP-HOP LADY GAGA? Quotes: "Billboard proclaimed her the "First Lady (Gaga) of Hip-Hop" last week" (http://hiphopwired.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/nickiminajbillboard.jpg), "We also happen to agree with the comparison." and "To show you why, RapFix gathered a list of the 10 reasons that Nicki Minaj is the second coming of Lady Gaga." He then lists the 10 reasons, in which he mentions "She hasn't quite come around to the idea of wearing a "meat dress" yet, but if she did, would you really be surprised?". Here is the link: http://www.mtv.com/news/2494595/nicki-minaj-pink-friday-lady-gaga-10-reasons/ Also about Nicki Minaj, Hip-Hop Wired's Danielle Canada writes: "Gaga Minaj?: Nicki Minaj’s 10 Most Lady Gaga Inspired Looks", "Forget Lil Kim, Nicki Minaj has been looking like Lady Gaga more and more each day." and "It’s no secret however that the Young Money Barbie has been emulating Gaga’s bizarre fashion, in 2010 Billboard dubbed her “The First Lady Gaga Of Rap." Link: http://hiphopwired.com/115433/lady-gaga-or-nicki-minaj-nicki-minajs-10-most-lady-gaga-inspired-looks/

Jon Caramanica from The New York Times: "Girl Pop’s Lady Gaga Makeover" Quotes: "It’s Halloween-costume empowerment, sure, but her fingerprints are all over the revised images of Christina Aguilera, Rihanna, Katy Perry and Beyoncé; and on new artists like Kesha, Janelle Monáe and Nicki Minaj.", "If Lady Gaga has had direct impact on anyone, it’s been, most surprisingly, Beyoncé, who has spent the majority of her career impervious to influence from her peers. Yet in the last year, in the wake of a pair of collaborations with Lady Gaga — “Telephone” and “Video Phone” — she appears to have come alive. The videos for those songs showed her to be far more humorous than ever before. And her most recent video, “Why Don’t You Love Me,” in which she portrays several versions of a dissatisfied midcentury housewife, is one of her best, and one of her most vivid. It’s as if Lady Gaga swooped in and infected Beyoncé with a bug, a vampiric chain of events." Link: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/25/arts/music/25feminism.html?mcubz=0

Los Angeles Time's article by Emili Vesilind: "Has Lady Gaga influenced Rihanna's style?" Quotes: "Though there are still plenty of pop stars playing it safe in the style department, Gaga's wacky style has brought total freakdom back into the music arena (finally!) -- and has opened the door for other female artists to cultivate their own deviant looks.", "Rihanna, in fact, didn't start flirting with S&M gear (aside from the occasional Herve Leger "bondage" dress) until Gaga started making the scene.", "Since then, she's gone from tame to totally outlandish", "Is Rihanna trying to out-freak Lady G.? From the get-go, the polished pop tart was fashion-forward. Her enviable figure and adorable face meant designers were always going to be throwing themselves at her feet. But somewhere along the way -- post-Gaga -- she (or her notoriously protective team of handlers) made the decision to take her look several steps beyond red-carpet pretty." Link: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/alltherage/2010/01/has-lady-gaga-influenced-rihannas-style.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by JoDash (talk • contribs) 23:55, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

Because of all of this impact, Lady Gaga was featured on TIME's All-TIME 100 Fashion Icons list in 2012, quote: "Lady Gaga is just as notorious for her outrageous style as she is for her pop hits. After all, Gaga, born Stefani Germanotta, has sported outfits made from plastic bubbles, Kermit the Frog dolls, and raw meat." She was the first and only from her generation to be on that list. Link: http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,2110513_2110627_2110688,00.html

Furthermore proving the album's impact are these two new achievements:

This week the album has passed 200th week on Billboard 200, which is rare, and not many albums have done that. Link: http://www.billboard.com/artist/306341/lady-gaga/chart?f=305 Also, today, The Fame Monster has become first album from the 2000s, by female artist, to pass 1 billion streams on Spotify, and second album ever to do so after Eminem's Curtain Call: The Hits, which is greatest hits compilation album. (So technically it is the first studio album to achieve this feat.) There is no article yet written about this, but the streams can be counted on Spotify.

I think the Legacy / Impact article should be written on The Fame Monster Wikipedia page, because it's a reissue of The Fame, and the albums are counted as one era. Thanks in advance to whoever writes this article! JoDash (talk) 01:44, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

Three weeks and no response. Can someone respond to this? It is important. Thanks. JoDash (talk) 13:00, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

Yes this can be added but concerned people are busy. This is Wikipedia and everyone is allowed to edit and add information. Why don't you give it a shot? —IB ^{[ Poke ]} 14:36, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

Okay. I am new here, but I will try. You can correct me if I am wrong. And also give me tips how to add this! That would be helpful. JoDash (talk) 20:39, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

@IndianBio: I've just posted 'Legacy' on The Fame Monster. You can check it out! JoDash (talk) 13:16, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

Top Dance/Electronic Albums Decade-End Charts

The Fame Monster occupies the 16th position in the Top Dance/Electronic Albums Decade-End Charts The Fame Monster--179.56.154.81 (talk) 22:39, 22 November 2019 (UTC)