Talk:Zak Smith

Outstanding Issues and Consensus

Repeatedly I've brought up major issues with the phrasing about the allegations in the "personal life" section and the entire article has had so much content erased it's pretty much only about the problematic paragraph. Every question I've raised has been ignored and everyone who argues against it or changes it has been accused of being me by editors here--that is not an assumption of good faith. I was asked to provide a sourced alternate paragraph and it's been provided. It was ignored--the fact that several editors making arguments assuming bad faith on the same page are ignoring other editors doesn't mean there's a consensus. FixerFixerFixer (talk) 15:16, 13 April 2019 (UTC)FixerFixerFixer

This article has been left in a sorry state and then locked. Practically all the valid content about this person's career spanning art, RPGs, and publications has been erased, and a paragraph about unsubstantiated allegations (which cites the one and only unreliable source six times in that one paragraph) is now dominating the page. This is clearly vandalism and needs to be rectified. Precious Island (talk) 03:38, 25 April 2019 (UTC)— Precious Island (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

@PeterTheFourth: a large chunk describing his artwork and books was removed with the edit summary that it was based on unreliable or self-published sources. Honeysuckle seems like a reliable art magazine while there should be no dispute about the LA Times or Huffington Post. Can't some of the descriptions based on those sources be reinstated in a neutral way? Morbidthoughts (talk) 23:57, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

@Morbidthoughts: I'm okay with reinstating some of the content in a cut down way, but not the reams of detail we had before - it's a question of how due things are. We don't need to list every single thing they've created, as that's already covered by the bibliography. PeterTheFourth (talk) 01:39, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

I agree that the amount of detail that was removed seemed excessive where it is a flowery description of his style rather a historical view of his career. However his works and style have been reviewed by notable academic journals (for example) and that arguably should be given greater weight than the controversial content. I am not an art expert though and cannot properly evaluate and summarise the criticism of his work. Morbidthoughts (talk) 08:13, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

@Morbidthoughts: The 2006 book is listed in the #Art sub-section of #Bibliography, and I don't see why the questia.com excerpt from an article about it should be relevant, how about a wikilink to Gravity's Rainbow#Art in a new #See also section, or a 4th sentence in #Career?
See below for Honeysuckle, it's not my bold day, I won't try to establish new RS out of thin air without compelling reasons. For HuffPost see WP:RS/P#HuffPost, red flag. –84.46.53.163 (talk) 21:04, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

I wasn't aware of the publishing model of the Huffington Post. My example of the Chicago Review is that these are the types of sources that we should be striving for in discussing evaluation/criticism of his art. Peer-reviewed academic journals are the gold standard. It doesn't matter that it's behind a pay wall. Some editors have subscription access through their academic affiliations, and you can always request an article through WP:LIBRARY. Morbidthoughts (talk) 23:06, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

What do you suggest then the best way to use verified and true sources to properly cite and use for the content in this section? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Artandcrypto (talk • contribs) 19:01, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

See above, apparently some folks agree with Morbidthoughts, ignoring eight characters in #Personal life discussed below. –84.46.53.102 (talk) 04:17, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

Meanwhile above is archived, JFTR, because some single purpose accounts tend to ignore it, and because I didn't know WP:BLPCRIME in summer 2019. –84.46.53.221 (talk) 02:52, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

Occupations

The occupations in the infobox (none), the lede (artist), and in #Career (artist) are incomplete. The categories + IAFD suggest "porn actor" (maybe "former"), the #Bibliography suggests "author" or "writer" or whatever is in those books + RPGs, and the #Awards are apparently for a "game developer" (notably not artist/author/actor).
Unrelated, the same source six times as only source for one paragraph is ugly. Maybe reduce this to two references (paragraph before last statement + last statement), and add a reference for his view to the last statement, apparently he updated it twice.^[1] –84.46.53.188 (talk) 10:04, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

BTW, what is {{WikiProject Punk music|importance=mid}} about? Importance=mid for a YouTuber can be about 1.5 million followers + professional with lots of YouTube stuff, but here musician is not even mentioned, there's no {{discogs artist}} in the external links and no musicbrainz ID in the {{authority control}}, is this some WikiProject BS bingo? –84.46.53.188 (talk) 10:52, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

This page has been vandalised and virtually wiped, over an interpersonal dispute between the subject and his ex-wife, which is now dominating the page despite no reliable secondary sources reporting on the facts. The occupations should include artist, porn actor, author, and game developer, at least. Precious Island (talk) 03:40, 25 April 2019 (UTC)— Precious Island (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

I'll interpret that as "no punk music" here. –84.46.53.175 (talk) 05:13, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

Resolved

 – –84.46.52.65 (talk) 03:22, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

Rape Allegations and Fallout with Role Playing Games Industry

I have reverted a recent change that saw a large and reasonably well cited section on the rape allegations and resulting fallout removed and replaced with a short section praising him. If there are problems with the section it should be discussed here, not suddenly deleted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.189.112.210 (talk) 05:42, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

So far for the wonders of semi-protection, I used a copy+paste variant of {{Uw-delete1}} for this business.
JFTR, HoneysuckleMag.com  is used only once as source on enwiki, therefore it might be no RS, otherwise another source for some BLP details (found in the reverted edit) could be fine:^[2] The second TheFanzine.com  source could also do this, but I can't as IP, some silly edit filter insists on no Fock and Purn  in references without log-in.
TL;DR: Only one source for adult film is too minimalistic. –84.46.53.163 (talk) 20:06, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Revisions to Career

All revisions I made to Career yesterday have verifiable sources sufficient for BLP. The content objectively details work he is known for. @NekoKatsun what is the reason for removing content on Zak's art and books? AlexaSmooth (talk) 21:07, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

This page in general (and that information in particular) has been the subject of a huge amount of debate for months now, effectively since the abuse allegations were brought to light. The content that you've been reinserting is vastly overdetailed and has previously been removed with the rationale that it's based on unreliable and self-published sources. It's also content that's been previously championed by a number of single-purpose accounts and IPs, including at least one strongly suspected of being the article's subject (which breaks all sorts of COI policies). My suggestion would be to present a trimmed-down and tightened version of the information you'd like in the article here on the talkpage, so that other editors can comment and we can get it to a state everyone agrees on. NekoKatsun (nyaa) 22:04, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

The main issue is that some of the descriptions or analysis of his work is cited directly to his works rather than a secondary reliable source. This is prohibited original research. I would recommend reinstating the portions that are supported by reputable art critic sources. Morbidthoughts (talk) 00:18, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

Thank you so much for your responses. Can you be more specific about which parts are overly detailed and supported by unreliable sources? I took quite a bit of time to make sure that the content I had included came from news sources, published books, and appropriate organizations. As such, clarity on the specific parts that are of concern would be much appreciated so we can reach a consensus together. AlexaSmooth (talk) 21:07, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

Even though you're responding to Neko, I would like to point out an example of original research. "Smith's body of work primarily comprises portraits, drawings, and abstract art executed in acrylic and ink" cites to three of his works directly or summaries from the publisher to establish this rather than a news article or an art journal. The next sentence, "An enduring interest in comic books informs the artist's dynamic and obsessively detailed depictions of the people, objects, and stories that inhabit his world." cites to another of his works directly. Morbidthoughts (talk) 23:02, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

There has been recent activity by the subject over the past few days in which he has allegedly been threatening his detractors. In the light of this, please be wary of revisions which may occur around this time.Merxa (talk) 04:44, 30 November 2019 (UTC)

Thanks Morbid and Merxa! Alexa, it's interesting you should say that - that makes it sound like this is original content from you, but all of it is pure copy-paste from a much older (and messier) version of this exact article, and has been discussed on this very talkpage. Beg pardon, but I'm starting to have some serious concerns about COI, and whether your account happens to be single-purpose. I note that you were asked point-blank at one point if you were the subject of the article, and I also note that this is one of two Wiki mainspace pages you've edited. Care to address? NekoKatsun (nyaa) 15:13, 2 December 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for your input, Morbid, definitely helps. NekoKatsun, I can understand your suspicions, happy to clear things up. I am not the subject of the article. I have some other drafts I'm working on for other articles, with regards to pole dancing and sex worker rights, I have yet to publish. Between the holidays and other family matters, I have unfortunately not had the time I need to upload much more than small edits when I can. I would classify the copy/paste of the prior version of this page within that realm of edits. As prior observed, it's tightened up, I focused primarily on making sure the sources were appropriate. Years ago, I had actually read this page, so I was surprised when I recently revisited and saw all of the information on the subject's art and books had been removed. Considering that many other public figures with convictions for abuse still have content about their work on their pages, it seemed strange that this particular person's career would be deleted in lieu of accusations. My interpretation was that the deletion of subject's career was with a very specific intention, and my assumption was vandalism. My intention was to reverse that perceived vandalism, while honoring the additions to subject's personal life. AlexaSmooth (talk) 05:38, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

Maybe add thefanzine.com/zak-smith-superpornstar/ as 2nd reference to the adult actor statement. I'm not logging in only to bypass a slightly silly fock+purn edit filter for references. –84.46.53.211 (talk) 16:48, 8 December 2019 (UTC)

Thank you, 84.46.53.211, Morbid, Neko, do I have your consensus to include this suggested citation? AlexaSmooth (talk) 08:08, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

I don't think I see any real issues with it. Your latest attempt still included all of the OR mentioned by Morbid earlier, though; please establish consensus before reinstating your edits. Like I suggested earlier, why not post it here so that we can all work on it together and get to a version we like before it hits the article? NekoKatsun (nyaa) 16:45, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

The fanzine is a more appropriate source for analysis than citing to his works directly. Morbidthoughts (talk) 01:57, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

Can you please clarify how the prior mentioned lines are original research? The content currently subject to debate in the art section has proper reference from museums, news articles, international art institutions, and literature published by reputable art historians published through respected book publishing companies that specialize in art criticism and art history. The citations for the published books comes directly from news articles and the ennies website. With all due respect, I did take Morbid's feedback into consideration. Considering that all the sources cited are still reliable and up to standard for BLP, I still maintain that the information I have added back is up to standard. This is my conclusion after comparing the content subject to debate with other living artists, including Takashi Murakami, Anselm Kiefer, Yayoi Kusama, and Marina Abramovic. AlexaSmooth (talk) 23:17, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

So having taken Morbid's feedback into consideration, why did you keep the multiple first-party references in there? The sentences they describe above have four references to Smith's work directly; we need reliable third party sources. Those four refs are also used throughout the rest of the content, rendering the whole thing a problem. Also, the entire "Books" section is more or less already covered in the bibliography section - about the only part that's not is that some of the RPGs he's affiliated with won ENnies, and that fits better just before the extant portion of the article pointing out that all future products with him as a contributor are banned from ENnie consideration. NekoKatsun (nyaa) 00:56, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

I was also researching and noticed that the ref you titled :2 (the book is Vitamin D2) doesn't mention him at all. NekoKatsun (nyaa) 01:27, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

Alexa, please read WP:PSTS. I told you that a review or analysis of his works must be based on independent reliable sources. When a sentence concludes what his works mostly consist of and cites to his works directly, it is an analysis of his work by the wikipedia editor who wrote that. Further, a gallery that is exhibiting his work like Saatchi is not a proper source to critique his art because it is not independent of Smith's work. This is the flaw of what you are trying to put in. Instead, summarise direct criticism from newspapers and art journals rather than force the reader to have to infer things.Morbidthoughts (talk) 02:13, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

Neko, according to the article Morbid references, third party is not a requirement for a page, secondary is. The information on books is acceptable for both books and bibliography, there's no reason why it shouldn't be included on both, nor is there adequate reason that subject's gaming books should not be included in books section. Subject's ban from ENnie's in the future is a result of allegations from personal life, and have nothing to do with the publication or reviews of prior work. As for the Vitamin D citation, apologies if I accidentally cited the wrong volume, that was meant to be volume 1. Subject's work is described in detail on page 302 by art critic Martha Schwender. Morbid, I would think that this source would be up to standard based on your feedback, and the articles you have asked me to read. Saatchi, in addition to being a gallery, is a news source. All the citations included come from news sources, which already include newspapers and art journals. Demanding I include those sources when they are already included and already up to par with BLP standards, and the standards you have verbalized, is not a productive debate, as it's not actually constructive feedback. AlexaSmooth (talk) 21:31, 19 December 2019 (UTC)— Preceding unsigned comment added by AlexaSmooth (talk • contribs) 21:16, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Alexa, "third-party" and "secondary" both mean the same thing in this context - not his works directly. If you believe your sources are up to the standards that have been explained, then you are willfully misunderstanding policy as well as what I and other editors are telling you. Post your suggested text here on the talkpage, and ensure that it doesn't reference his works directly, nor any organization not independent of his works (Saatchi). NekoKatsun (nyaa) 22:15, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Third party and secondary are completely different types of sources. In addition to citing the published works, I also included news sources that consistently references the books and their content. AlexaSmooth (talk) 23:07, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Why do you keep re-adding the contested material before consensus is established? NekoKatsun (nyaa) 23:51, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Also why would you remove sources established to be reliable? Did you not check the talkpage archive? There's only one, not much of an excuse, but here, I've done the legwork for you.

Alexa, this is the part of WP:PSTS I want you to focus on: "Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. A primary source may be used on Wikipedia only to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge." Tell me how analysing his works as being mostly portraits and abstract art executed in acrylic and ink as straight forward descriptive statements that can be verified by a layman? It requires you to look a look at his work and come to that conclusion and a layman is not expected to understand that his work was done in acrylic. Further describing his art as "dynamic and obsessively detailed" is critique that cannot be cited to galleries who are trying to exhibit or sell his work. Are you the original author of this paragraph? Morbidthoughts (talk) 00:40, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

I am not. Those are statements backed up by the news articles and art criticism book that I cited. AlexaSmooth (talk) 10:38, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Workdraft review

We're going to have to review the art section, sentence by sentence, then:

1. Smith's body of work primarily comprises portraits, drawings, and abstract art executed in acrylic and ink.
2. An enduring interest in comic books informs the artist's dynamic and obsessively detailed depictions of the people, objects, and stories that inhabit his world.
3. Allied with punk and hardcore culture and the DIY aesthetic associated with these movements, Smith draws on traditions of decorative art to produce visually complex, labor-intensive pictures characterized by intricate patterns and vivid coloration.
4. These include repeated shapes (such as squares and lines) that are compressed to form 3D hints that form the picture.
5. Zak also contrasts colors in his work, often using black and white with clear differentiation within the scene.
6. Smith is best known for his portraits of female subjects – with an emphasis on eroticism as well as the mundane aspects of his subjects' lives.
7. The latter were featured in the 2004 Whitney Biennial at the Whitney Museum of American Art and are now in the collection of the Walker Art Center in Minneapolis.

The purpose of this section is not to act as Zak Smith's CV or portfolio, but to summarise what other people have written about his art. The art galleries that exhibit his work are disqualified as sources because they have an interest in promoting his work. Tell me which independent reliable sources directly support each sentence. If not, we'll throw it out. I've already commented on why I believe 1 and 2 are problematic. Please do not reinstate anything before we complete this process. Morbidthoughts (talk) 18:14, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

1. #Smith's body of work primarily comprises portraits, drawings, and abstract art executed in acrylic and ink. http://www.artnet.com/Magazine/features/honigman/honigman6-7-04.asp

2. An enduring interest in comic books informs the artist's dynamic and obsessively detailed depictions of the people, objects, and stories that inhabit his world. Tablonsky, L. (2003).

(Zak Smith's comic-book illustration techniques). ARTnews. 102. 96-96. 

3. Allied with punk and hardcore culture and the DIY aesthetic associated with these movements, Smith draws on traditions of decorative art to produce visually complex, labor-intensive pictures characterized by intricate patterns and vivid coloration. https://www.latimes.com/entertainment/arts/miranda/la-et-cam-moment-of-friday-artist-zak-smith-metal-band-celtic-frost-20140703-column.html Vitamin D: New Perspectives on Drawing, Martha Schwendener, Phaidon Press (with Illustrations), pg.009, 010, 302-305, 348

4. These include repeated shapes (such as squares and lines) that are compressed to form 3D hints that form the picture. Vitamin D: New Perspectives on Drawing, Martha Schwendener, Phaidon Press (with Illustrations), pg.009, 010, 302-305, 348

5. Zak also contrasts colors in his work, often using black and white with clear differentiation within the scene. https://honeysucklemag.com/zak-smith-zak-sabbath-art/ http://www.curbsidesplendor.com/blog/2015/6/20/we-did-an-interview-zak-smith-talks-art-writing-porn

6. Smith is best known for his portraits of female subjects – with an emphasis on eroticism as well as the mundane aspects of his subjects' lives. https://honeysucklemag.com/zak-smith-zak-sabbath-art/ https://www.latimes.com/entertainment/arts/miranda/la-et-cam-moment-of-friday-artist-zak-smith-metal-band-celtic-frost-20140703-column.html

7. The latter were featured in the 2004 Whitney Biennial at the Whitney Museum of American Art and are now in the collection of the Walker Art Center in Minneapolis. https://honeysucklemag.com/zak-smith-zak-sabbath-art/ https://www.latimes.com/entertainment/arts/miranda/la-et-cam-moment-of-friday-artist-zak-smith-metal-band-celtic-frost-20140703-column.html http://www.artnet.com/magazineus/features/trice/trice10-15-07.asp https://www.minnpost.com/artscape/2019/11/the-expressionist-figure-drawings-at-the-walker-carmens-tragedy-at-the-u/ https://www.juxtapoz.com/news/zak-smith-shred-richard-heller-gallery-la/

AlexaSmooth (talk) 19:17, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

1. The artnet article does not mention abstract art and was written in 2004 so it may be outdated on properly verifying what his work consists of. Based on that article, the sentence will need to be rewritten to: "Smith's body of work include portraits and drawings using ink, paint and mixed media."
2. Is this flowery sentence a direct quote from the Artnews article? It's hard to believe an editor summarised such flowery prose. Do you have a copy of the article?
3. The LA Times article says he likes to listen to music when he creates art. It doesn't explicitly support "Allied with punk and hardcore culture and the DIY aesthetic associated with these movements" or describe on the traditions he draws on. I assume the latter is from Martha Schwendener's book. Do you have a copy of it? This seems to be the most pertinent quote from the LA Times, "And the spare materials with which the song is built (guitar, accompanied by Tom Gabriel Fischer’s growling vocals) is something that Smith sees as connecting with his own work." However this connection would seem to contradict that his work is visually complex with intricate patterns and vivid coloration.
4. Seems like a reasonable description that would be supported in that art book."
5. No mention of color or contrast in the honeysuckle article. The curbsidesplendor site is not an acceptable source given that it is a retail business possibly selling Smith's book. It also doesn't directly mention contrast or even the word black or white.
6. The two citations do not discuss what he is best known for? Can you point to me where in those articles they discuss the emphasis on eroticism and mundane?
7. What does "latter" refer to? The citations don't explicitly mention which one of his works ended up at the Walker Art Center.

Morbidthoughts (talk) 20:21, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

If you need an example for #6 maybe include this, it supports "Acrylic and metallic ink" on a 2007 portrait of Sasha Grey in the Saatchi Gallery. You already have another 2005 example for the Girls in the Naked Girl Business series at the Whitney Museum of American Art. –84.46.52.84 (talk) 17:01, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Erm... not sure how "Acrylic and metallic ink" supports "Smith is best known for his portraits of female subjects – with an emphasis on eroticism as well as the mundane aspects of his subjects' lives." If anything I feel like this is more a potential reference for #1 ("Smith's body of work include portraits and drawings using ink, paint and mixed media.")? NekoKatsun (nyaa) 17:59, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Maybe this essay can be reduced to one or two statements with the given references for #1 + #6. –84.46.52.84 (talk) 19:40, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

• Apologies for just coming in on this conservation now, i see that amongst the information removed from the article was galleries/museums that hold his works, this should be reinstated as it is the usual way to show that an artist is notable, see WP:CREATIVE. Coolabahapple (talk) 04:16, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

See WP:NNC. The fact that they exhibit his works is already in the article. The problem with relying on art criticism directly from those galleries is that they have an interest in promoting their exhibits violating WP:V and WP:UNDUE. See WP:COISOURCE. Morbidthoughts (talk) 07:54, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

Yes, and I missed that there are already three references incl. Sasha Grey for three Girls in the Naked Girl Business, added to the Infobox as notable work, not explicitly mentioning it in the article is odd, but this BLP will never be a class=B. OTOH his former RPG development (not counting the reason for former in "Personal life") should be addresses by somebody with a clue about RPGs, i.e., not me. –84.46.52.59 (talk) 02:05, 18 January 2020 (UTC)

Miscellany

Trying to find a review for one his books (this is always a pain if the non-seller results start after page 5 of the search hits) I stumbled over 2 tumblr blog posts, 2 RS, and a connected source:

• Mandy Morbid had a gofundme.com legal fund against the defamation suit in 2019.^[3]
• Zak Smith opposed FOSTA-SESTA in 2018, reported by his gallerist.^[4]
• ArtsBeat (NYT) featured his top 11 songs in 2009 mentioning three of his books.^[5]
• RPG Publisher Lamentations of the Flame Princess Cuts Ties with Zak Smith Following Abuse Allegations.^[6]
• Somebody working for Artillery (magazine) had a lunch with Zak Smith in 2010.^[7]

–84.46.52.59 (talk) 01:40, 18 January 2020 (UTC)