Talk:Stockholm

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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 1 April 2019 and 14 June 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Katemackie (article contribs).

IPA-pronunciation for "Stockholm"

@SergeWoodzing and IvanScrooge98: English-speakers have no problems pronouncing "Stockholm" in English, since it's very straight-forward, so the IPA-pronounciation of the name in the lead should of course be the Swedish pronounciation... - Tom | Thomas.W ^talk 22:05, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

Thank you, I was going to say that before.

Wikipedia’s policy clearly states:

• “If [and only if I would say] a common English rendering of the foreign name exists […], its pronunciation, if necessary, should be indicated before the foreign one”
  

and below:

• “When a foreign name has a set English pronunciation (or pronunciations), include both the English and foreign-language pronunciations”

Nowhere it is openly said: “remove random IPA and audio files” or “avoid adding new foreign pronunciations”; instead, “pronunciation should be indicated sparingly” may also refer to English pronunciations, which is the case for Stockholm. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 22:13, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

We can remove the English IPA per MOS:LEADPRON. The Swedish pronunciation should stay, it doesn't take up any space and it's useful. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 13:30, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

I believe the footnote solution is the best for the type of pronunciation guidance which is not generally useful to readers of English, such as how Swedes pronounce Stockholm. Who cares, outside of the Swedish-speaking world? So why clutter up the first line in the lead with trivia like that?

Wikipedia is not a language school. If it were, it would be more important for English Wikipedia to teach Swedes how to pronouce English than vice versa. A Swede who pronunces the name of his capital city in perfect English, when speaking English, will do well. A Swede who tries to force the Swedish pronunciation on people who really aren't that interested, or needy, will not do well. I've worked with all this stuff for over 50 years now, seen it all.

Anyway, I have taken rather seriously ill today, unfortunately, and will try to address this in a more comprehensive manner, perhaps by suggesting changes to guideline, when I feel better. We need consensus on a better guideline.

Meanwhile, please promise me not to add pronunciation re: how Swedes might say "Gothenburg" (Gååtännburj?) or Danes might say "Copenhagen" (DenKaapenädenlillehääägendäouh?)! Readers of English do not need to know any of that either. Deal? --SergeWoodzing (talk) 13:44, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

“Who cares, outside of the Swedish-speaking world?” Hello, people interested in Sweden (one of the possible reasons they are here for)?? This project is mainly intended for English-speaking people. Also,

1. nobody is forcing readers to use the Swedish pronunciation in English;
2. we are not talking about how non-native English speakers pronounce English-language names (such as Gothenburg). イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 14:34, 1 September 2018 (UTC)

People who take a general interest in Sweden are not normally interested in having language lessons thrown at them. In person, they might smile politely. There are plenty of other websites that provide that kind of information, i.e. appropriate forums for such interest & info.

1. Don't misquote me please! Forcing someone to do something and forcing something on someone (such as cluttering the first line of many lead sections with trivia) are not the same thing.
2. Stockholm has been a word in the English language for hundreds of years. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 15:33, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

Okay, it is clear (considering some of your recent edits) you and I have a profoundly different opinion regarding what is “trivia” and what is not, so it is pointless to keep arguing about that. On the other hand, what I mean is: while Gothenburg is English and should only be provided an English IPA (similarly, Göteborg is Swedish and should only be provided a Swedish IPA), Stockholm is both the English and native name of the city, so it should have both IPA transcriptions as they are both relevant to the topic. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 17:00, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

Or possibly the Swedish one only, accordingly to what is argued above. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 17:02, 3 September 2018 (UTC)

As a foonote OK. I'm fine with that. Readers of English may need immediate help in trying to pronounce names like Storkyrkan (which they might ask Swedes how to find when in Stockholm, and many Stockholmers wouldn't know what the Great Church or Stockholm Cathedral was) but they do not need a relatively useless Swedish pronunciation of Stockholm thrown at them in the very first line of this article. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 19:16, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

Again, you are thus going to need to discuss the whole general thing in a more appropriate place; otherwise we will have articles like this with short notes and other articles with much longer strings of text in brackets. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 21:31, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

So what are we gonna do? This talk has been fruitlessly going on here and there (and on my talk) for too long. イヴァンスクルージ九十八_（会話） 12:14, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

Footnote OK. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 15:55, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

Climate section

The climate section seems to be completely messed up (starting with an incomplete edit by Boeing720 31 october 2018). Could someone (with roll back access) please roll it back to the version prior to that?

--NiccoUrban (talk) 22:30, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

National urban park

In the introduction it is stated that "Stockholm is the only capital in the world with a national urban park.". This is true, since that concept (according to the article in Swdish wikipedia , nationalstadspark) only exists in Sweden and Finland. The capital of Finland lacks such a park. The sentence should therefore imo be changed to Stockholm is the only capital in Sweden-Finland with a national urban park. In the Helsinki article, it should also be stated that Helsinki is the only capital in Sweden-Finland without a national urban park.

Or as I would prefer the most: Let us skip the sentence completely. Please give some arguments in favor of keeping the sentence, or I will erase it.

NB: An National urban park is not a national park. It is just legislative defintion on land use and development.

--NiccoUrban (talk) 13:15, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

Only islands or mainland as well?

The first paragraph says, "The city stretches across fourteen islands where Lake Mälaren flows into the Baltic Sea." Is none of it on the mainland? Nurg (talk) 04:44, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

Fjollträsk

Is the name Fjollträsk worth mentioning here? I (sort of) explain it with a source at Talk:Fjollträsk#Explanation. Glades12 (talk) 08:15, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

No, in my opinion. Just trying to explain the whole thing to English-readers would be more excessive, tedious and far-flung than it would be worth. Some people way up north have called the capital city "fag squalor" and a few Swedish films & programs have picked up on that. So what? --SergeWoodzing (talk) 11:21, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Why not? Listed are:

Nickname(s): Eken, the Venice of the North, the Venice of Scandinavia,[1] Mälardrottningen.

I would say Fjollträsk is far more used in contemporary society?

If you use it, and you think it's cutesy-witty & sarcastically poignant in Swedish, and if you think it's a great idea, almost an epiphany, to bring the Swedish homosexual pejorative for "faggot" or "sissy" or "prissy-looloo" into English Wikipedia with it, that's up to you. Why ask "why not?"? Here, it is Swedish-language trivia & for the reasons I've explained it does not belong in the English article. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 14:41, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

It's used in advertising, films and media so I guess it's ok. Thanks!

In Swedish such, yes, On English Wikipedia, no. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 17:37, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

That's the weirdest argument I've ever heard. It is a de facto nickname for Stockholm. So if I provide an advertisement from an English speaking country as a source it would be included? I didn't know advertising campaigns dictated what should be included on Wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.234.33.218 (talk) 10:02, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

It is trivia at best, in Swedish, not a common nickname. It is of no use to English readers, except perhaps that a few Swedes who do not like Stockholm like to use the homosexual pejorative (faggot slur) involved. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 10:15, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

What are you on about it is a culturally based nickname widely used by people, advertising, media, movies and film and as I linked it is researched in academia. It's more used than "mälardrottningen" so why don't you remove that also? It is de facto the most common nickname and is used widely without prejudice. I'm not promoting anything and you shouldn't argue what I've added but what my sources say. Since now you are just removing well sourced content. Going to add it again. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.234.33.218 (talk) 10:54, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

As I now have noticed you've been going around calling my sources fake and false elsewhere I'm feeling you're being very dishonest in this discussion. If you want to discuss you shouldn't go around telling lies. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.234.33.218 (talk) 11:22, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

1. We are all supposed to learn and then use WP:Indentation.
2. We are not supposed to use personal attacks when discussing.
3. This is the link that was provided as a source. I do not see the word "Fjollträsk" mentioned anywhere when that link is followed. If anyone else can see it, I'll be glad to admit I'm wrong.
4. One single source promoting a nasty word is not enough here.
5. The main issue here between me and the IP (who apparently is here at en:WP only for one reason: to get this nasty name added to the project) has been reverts done without talking first on this page.
6. We do not add things to articles based only on the opinions of users, and our personal opinions are not relevant to change articles.
7. If they were relevant, I would mention how many years I have lived in Stockholm, how many Stockholmers I deal with on a daily and weekly basis, and the fact that the pejorative "Fjollträsk" may be a popular expression among homophobic dudes in some small town way up north in Sweden, but is absolutely not a common nickname for Stockholm. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 01:02, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Hello! I didn't provide a link at all to the article I provided a DOI which is an identifier used in academia to link to journals and papers. It is the de facto way to reference material in academia. The DOI was provided here: sv:Fjollträsk<ref>Eriksson, Madeleine (April 2010). ""People in Stockholm are smarter than countryside folks" – Reproducing urban and rural imaginaries in film and life". Journal of Rural Studies. 26 (2): 95–104. doi:10.1016/j.jrurstud.2009.09.005. resolving this DOI provides you with the following text:

Those we are destined to identify with. The duality between the rural and urban is mainly represented as the duality between an abstract rural space in the North and the capital, Stockholm. Fish (2007) points out that the rural and the city are commonly ‘‘relational spaces of film’’ (Fish, 2007, p. 5), whereby rural space is represented as a space of traditional and often reactionary values. One apparent example of this relational process in the film is when the hunters talk about metropolitan Stockholm as ‘Fjollträsk’ (fjoll from fjollig ¼ effeminate, referring to ‘feminine’ homosexual men, and träsk ¼ swamp, a common word used as part of place names in Vässterbotten and Norrbotten), as if to say that Stockholm is nothing for real men. Since the film was shown for the first time, this appellation of Stockholm has frequently been used in different contexts, in plays and movies and by journalists. ‘Fjolltrösk’ is now regarded as an amusing name for Stockholm and is often used by Stockholmers themselves. ‘Fjollträsk’ has repeatedly been used and circulated in the stereotyping of ‘Norrlanders’ and has become part of the discourse on Norrland as homophobic but also as reactionary in general.4 Thereby, the word is as much an appellation for ‘Norrlanders’ as for ‘Stockholmers’. For instance, a columnist in a Stockholm-based tabloid writes about the Eurovision song contest and the trendy gay community in Stockholm: A real Fjollträsk [Stockholm], but we should be happy about that (Aftonbladet, 11 February 2005, own transl.)....

(Text got a little garbled from being copied from the PDF)

So don't go around saying I didn't provide a source.

I can also provide you with the DOI oai:DiVA.org:umu-90630 I won't address the other bulletpoints since they are irrelevant to the article but I'll say that the only one doing number 6 is the user who keeps on reverting my addition. Wiktionary lists, among Fjollträsk, also Tokhult and Tjockhult being nick names for the capital elsewhere in Sweden. Currently also Fjollträsk is far more used on google than mälardrottningen and the venice of scandinavia. Stockholm Arlanda (STO) home to all ove these slogans over the years have themselves displayed the "Välkommen till Fjollträsk" banner as seen: https://www.resume.se/marknadsforing/reklam/resenarer-valkomnas-till-fjolltrask/

I stand by my points 3, 4, 5, and 6 above.

Sources cited are supposed to be readily accessible to a user and contain what they allegedly source.

The banner was erected and used only for a movie, never as a regular feature of the airport.

These pejorative nicknames may be be common on Internet sites which end up in Google. They are not common as nicknames for Stockholm among regular Swedes or in any non-tabloid publications.

If the word is to be mentioned at all in this article, it should not be as a common nickname but as trivia, and should then be clearly noted as a pejorative and derogatory term used in comedy entertainment. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 16:26, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

The source is readily available as any academic source. I can provide non academic ones but you just have to go to the Swedish article one the subject for that. The banner was not erected for a movie. The nick name is widely used. Why the lies? Why is mälardrottningen listed? You were supposed to contest you were wrong now? Why are you arguing this case based on your opinions? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.234.33.218 (talk) 17:13, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Source additions member of parliament refering to the nickname in the riksdag: https://data.riksdagen.se/fil/4034B5D5-EF3A-4FB4-90AE-CB1FF77522DE

Liberal newspaper of note on the subject: https://www.svd.se/stockholm-far-kallas-fjolltrask-3BDR

Social democrat newspaper on the subject: https://www.dn.se/ledare/huvudledare/for-mycket-sjukvard-i-fjolltrask/

Swedish public service radio on the subject: https://sverigesradio.se/artikel/1358907

Swedish public service TV: https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/vasterbotten/flygfolk-uppskattar-granskningen

None of these are tabloids. Please stay on the subject. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.234.33.218 (talk) 17:23, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Fick Harrison referencing ithttps://books.google.se/books?id=bvE5Xhvr3vUC&pg=PA599&lpg=PA599&dq=kungen+fjolltr%C3%A4sk&source=bl&ots=JzaHJvdHlt&sig=ACfU3U2zrAKZ1ZYPYTl0hUbL-x0-1w95Mg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiXlJbb9I7sAhX0AxAIHTLtCY84MhDoATAJegQICBAB#v=onepage&q=kungen%20fjolltr%C3%A4sk&f=false

Finnish newspaper using the nickname: https://www.hbl.fi/artikel/fran-fjolltrask-till-fjallen-svts-nya-serie-ar-ingen-hit/

.......

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