Wikipedia talk:Reference desk

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Medical advice

This question appears quite dispassionate—not a specific request for actual medical advice, but instead answerable in general with links to WP articles, references to scientific literature, or other WP:RS external sources. This response by Guy Macon seems to contain that that: although it is clearly written as medical advice because it's an extensive quote from the ref, Seattle Children's seems like a reliable source and there is neutral information in there. A statement such as a paraphrase of the "Sun exposure can darken scars permanently, making them more noticeable" portion, and maybe that sunscreen can mitigate that effect, cited to that ref seems like it would be valid in our scar article. Abductive thinks the question is a hopeless request-for-advice as a whole. I'd welcome others' comments on the suitability of the question, and at least a portion of the Seattle Children's info as a response. DMacks (talk) 04:39, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Let people Google it themselves and delete with prejudice. It's better that way. Abductive (reasoning) 04:41, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

WIKIPEDIA HAS NO POLICY THAT SAYS THAT MEDICAL ADVICE IS NOT ALLOWED. We do, however, have a Wikipedia behavioral guideline at WP:TPOC that says that deleting other editors comments is not allowed except in certain circumstances -- and deleting an answer from the refdesk because of an imaginary rule about medical advice isn't listed on that page.

Some medical advice ("don't risk eating rotten food. Throw it out and thoroughly clean anything it touched") is OK, and is vastly preferable to "ask your doctor if eating rotten food is OK". Other medical advice ("go ahead and eat rotten food") is definitely not OK. The difference is that telling someone not to eat rotten food is not a harmful post as defined at WP:TPOC, but telling someone that it is OK to eat rotten food is a harmful post.

There are some miguided editors who believe that Wikipedia has a policy against giving medical, legal, and business advice, but no such policy or guideline exists. (If you are about to cite the reference desk guidelines, please read WP:LOCALCON and then show me where the Wikipedia community approved them).

Here is some medical advice: Don't do crystal meth. It will screw up your health. Don't bother asking a doctor if crystal meth is good for you. It isn't. (medical disclaimer) Here is some legal advice: Don't do crystal meth. It is likely to get you arrested. Don't bother asking a lawyer if crystal meth is illegal. It is. (legal disclaimer) Here is some professional advice: Don't do crystal meth. It will use up all of your money and is likely to get you fired. Don't bother asking a certified financial planner if becoming a meth addict is good for your finances. It isn't. (general disclaimer, risk disclaimer)

There. I just provided medical, legal, and professional advice, and while I did make a point, I did so without being disruptive.

Feel free to report my behavior at WP:ANI if you believe that I have violated any Wikipedia policy or guideline. But don't delete other people's edits. Do that again and you may be blocked from editing Wikipedia for ignoring an actual guideline while enforcing an imaginary one. --Guy Macon (talk) 05:52, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

So you can just ignore the work editors put into Wikipedia:Reference desk/Guidelines/Medical advice, building consensus for how best to handle medical and legal advice? Why should your interpretation of the talk page guidelines override that of editors who actually discussed these issues and their application to the ref desks to build a consensus? fiveby(zero) 13:34, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Yup. I sure can "ignore the work editors put into the refdesk guidelines , building [local] consensus for how best to handle medical and legal advice". Oh sure, some of it is good, and I follow those parts, but some of it is against Wikipedia's guidelines and policies and I will gladly ignore those parts any time someone tries to enforce them.

• Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines#Editing others' comments gives you a complete list of when you are allowed to remove another editor's comments. "Any answer that provides medical advice, whether the question sought it or not, should be removed" is not on that list.

• Wikipedia:Consensus#Levels of consensus says "Consensus among a limited group of editors, at one place and time, cannot override community consensus on a wider scale. For instance, unless they can convince the broader community that such action is right, participants in a WikiProject cannot decide that some generally accepted policy or guideline does not apply to articles within its scope. WikiProject advice pages, how-to and information pages, and template documentation pages have not formally been approved by the community through the policy and guideline proposal process, thus have no more status than an essay."

• The Wikipedia Arbitration Committee has ruled that "Where there is a global consensus to edit in a certain way, it should be respected and cannot be overruled by a local consensus. However, on subjects where there is no global consensus, a local consensus should be taken into account. "

You claim that editors put a lot of work work into the refdesk guidelines. I suggest that you either do the additional work to make your local "no more status than an essay" page follow Wikipedia's real guidelines or that you do the additional work to get the real guidelines changed to agree with your "no more status than an essay" page.

Also, and I can't emphasize this strongly enough, don't do crystal meth. It really is bad for your health. See Methamphetamine#Adverse effects. --Guy Macon (talk) 14:18, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

All i see in the above are insults and WP:Gaming the system. fiveby(zero) 15:06, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Following Wikipedia's policies and guidelines is not gaming the system. Pointing out that someone else is violating WP:TPOC and WP:LOCALCON is not gaming the system. --Guy Macon (talk) 15:57, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Guy Macon, could you tone down the bold and all caps a bit. I'm sure there's no policy against it, but it makes your entire post look louder and more aggressive than necessary. It doesn't make it more readable for me, and one can be emphatic in one's choice of words rather than font style. Thanks. ---Sluzzelin talk 15:15, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Will do. In a perfect world, all I would have to do is type WP:TPOC and the person reading the post would follow the link and discuss the policy. --Guy Macon (talk) 15:52, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

It happens every time someone asks any question even remotely related to human biology. It's like people either don't actually read the question and just default to MEDICAL ADVICE OH NO, or - far more likely - don't actually have a clue what they're talking about. I'd ignore them, and answer the question with and RS, like what happened here. To suggest good and interesting questions like these should be deleted is quite frankly astonishing and shows that people indeed don't know what they're talking about. It's the same as why most Wiki biological science articles are so terrible, because of the bizarre edict against "primary sources", IE, the actual research. Just means they're always several years out of date, as you can't use the actual sources you need. Means I don't waste my time writing any. Refdesk is at risk of turning out the same way, with polices written by people who don't have a clue stopping good work being done. Fgf10 (talk) 00:45, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Alas, "just ignoring them" only works when they make "No medical advice" comments based upon, in the words of Arbcom, "Local policies that have not formally been approved by the community through the policy and guideline proposal process and thus have no more status than an essay" Ignoring them doesn't work then the violate an actual guideline (WP:TPOC) by deleting other people's comments.

As a great example, look at this completely bogus removal: [1]

I mean look at it! On what planet is that medical advice? Free clue: a refdesk answer about someone's possessions cannot be "medical advice". Also note that it wasn't done as a revert so as to hide it from my notifications.

Not that it not being medical advice matters, because the is no guideline or policy against giving medical advice (did I mention that my medical advice is that you shouldn't do crystal meth?), but deleting things that are not medical advice just shows that some Wikipedia editors are just looking for any excuse to censor other editors by deleting their comments. --Guy Macon (talk) 01:06, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

@DMacks: Debates that follow the removal of an edit on the grounds of medical advice always seem to focus on whether or not such edits should be removed. Instead, such debates should focus on the dual questions of what is the risk of harm caused by the answer, and what risk is avoided by removing the answer.

There is nothing intrinsically unacceptable about medical advice; the thing that is unacceptable is that some answers on Wikipedia might present a risk of harm to one or more potential victims. Besides, there is no litmus test for medical advice; one person’s helpful information is another person’s medical advice.

I have looked at the original question about wounds, sunlight and scars, and at Guy Macon’s answer. I have asked myself about the risk of harm that might flow from the answer. I can find none. I have asked myself about the risk that might be avoided by removing the answer. I can find none. I have gone in search of the victim of this answer. I can find none. The worst thing that might flow from Guy’s answer is that one or more people might apply sunscreen to a healed wound. No victim there.

One of the principles that applies to our interactions with others at Wikipedia is that we rarely remove another User’s signed edit. If we do so, we must have a damn good reason for doing so and, more importantly we must be willing and able to objectively and comprehensively explain our actions. We must expect our removal to be challenged so we must be willing to spend as much time as necessary to give an account of our decision to remove. A few hundred words would seem to be the minimum to adequately explain why we removed someone else’s edit. Abductive has dismissed DMack’s challenge in thirteen words. In my view it suggests that Abductive, while willing to remove Guy Macon’s answer, is not willing to objectively and comprehensively explain why. Abductive’s response is unsatisfactory because he makes no attempt to identify the risk of harm that he saw in Guy’s answer; or to identify the benefit that might flow from removing the answer. He has made no attempt to identify the potential victim of Guy’s answer. Dolphin (t) 06:55, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

I should have thought that my lack of response here would indicate that I don't intend to keep deleting people's signed edits based on what I thought was a pretty clear rule that there is to be no medical advice. Abductive (reasoning) 07:14, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

There is a very clear rule that we don't offer medical advice so we must keep that in mind as we compose an answer to a question. There is no similarly clear rule about removing other User's answers. Remember, there is no litmus test for medical advice - one person's helpful information is another person's medical advice. If we see an answer that might be medical advice we need to move carefully and think clearly. If we go ahead and remove the answer we must be willing and able to give an account of our action, objectively and comprehensively. Dolphin (t) 07:28, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Re: "what I thought was a pretty clear rule that there is to be no medical advice" and "there is a very clear rule that we don't offer medical advice", NO SUCH RULE EXISTS. Seriously. A small group of Wikipedia editors decided to make up a new rule which they have never submitted to the community for approval. Please stop saying that an actual rule exits. It does not.

The actual rule is "no harmful posts". The actual Wikipedia policy tells us that Some medical advice ("don't risk eating rotten food. Throw it out and thoroughly clean anything it touched") is not harmful, is allowed, and is vastly preferable to "ask your doctor if eating rotten food is OK", while other medical advice ("go ahead and eat rotten food") is harmful and is not allowed. The difference is that telling someone not to eat rotten food is not a harmful post as defined at WP:TPOC, but telling someone that it is OK to eat rotten food is a harmful post.

Wikipedia:Consensus#Levels of consensus says "Consensus among a limited group of editors, at one place and time, cannot override community consensus on a wider scale. For instance, unless they can convince the broader community that such action is right, participants in a WikiProject cannot decide that some generally accepted policy or guideline does not apply to articles within its scope. WikiProject advice pages, how-to and information pages, and template documentation pages have not formally been approved by the community through the policy and guideline proposal process, thus have no more status than an essay."

The Wikipedia Arbitration Committee has ruled that "Where there is a global consensus to edit in a certain way, it should be respected and cannot be overruled by a local consensus. However, on subjects where there is no global consensus, a local consensus should be taken into account. "

Those who wish to enforce made-up rules should either either do the additional work to make their local "no more status than an essay" page follow Wikipedia's real guidelines or do the additional work to get the real guidelines changed to agree with their "no more status than an essay" page.

Also, and I can't emphasize this strongly enough, My medical, legal, and professional advice is "don't do crystal meth. It really is bad for your health." See Methamphetamine#Adverse effects. --Guy Macon (talk) 13:10, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

@Guy Macon: you have emphasized that global is used even if local contradicts it but that local is used when thre is no global, and the policy>guideline>essay hierarchy. I don't see where you have stated with link what the relevant global guideline is that overrules the RefDesk local guideline about medical advice. Do we have a guideline that says something like "it's okay to give advice, even medical advice as long as it likely to be considered harmful"? DMacks (talk) 13:29, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Your claim that "global is used even if local contradicts it but that local is used when there is no global" is incorrect. The actual policy is "on subjects where there is no global consensus, a local consensus should be taken into account." There is a global consensus that certain specific things are not allowed anywhere on Wikipedia and that anybody wishing to add to that list, whether they want to forbid Depictions of Muhammad, Xenu, calling pseudoscience pseudoscience, or giving medical advice, must first go through the standard procedure for suggesting changes to Wikipedia policies.

You appear to be taking the position that unless Wikipedia's policies and guidelines explicitly allow something a handful of editors can forbid it. New rule: taking such a position is now forbidden, so please stop doing that. (If other people can make up rules and act as if they are actual Wikipedia policies and guidelines, why can't I?) --Guy Macon (talk) 15:49, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

At Wikipedia:Reference desk/Guidelines#What the reference desk is not there is the following advice: However, general medical and legal questions ("What is sleep apnea?", "What is the role of the U.S. President in making laws?") are fine.

At Wikipedia:Reference desk/Guidelines/Medical advice#Why? there is the following advice: The purpose is to avoid doing harm to readers by advising them on medical issues—either because the advice is dangerous or because it discourages them from seeing a medical professional. Dolphin (t) 13:54, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for linking to a non-policy that Wikipedia's real policies say has "no more status than an essay". Your point being? The part about avoid doing harm to readers is also found in an actual policy (WP:TPOC), but of course not all medical advice is harmful and discouraging someone from seeing a medical professional isn't always harmful either. Example: Here is some medical advice: Don't do crystal meth. It will screw up your health. Don't bother asking a doctor if crystal meth is good for you. That's a total waste of time. Your doctor will tell you that crystal meth will screw up your health. Feel free to report me at WP:ANI for violating your made-up rule. --Guy Macon (talk) 15:49, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

@Guy Macon: My point is that DMacks asked Do we have a guideline that says something like "it's okay to give advice, even medical advice as long as it [is not?] likely to be considered harmful"? I think he is sceptical that such a guideline exists. I provided two quotations that respond to his question, and I provided links to the source pages. Dolphin (t) 01:57, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

...except that the pages you quoted are not policies or guidelines. They are simply advice that we are free to ignore. This has been explained to you several times. What part of "no more status than an essay" are you having trouble understanding?

Also, I couldn't help noticing that you used the letter "e" several times in the above post. That isn't allowed. See No Es allowed! --Guy Macon (talk) 06:26, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

User:DMacks asked for certain information. I supplied that information. It is a matter between him and me. There is no dispute between you and me, and I am puzzled as to why you have joined. Dolphin (t) 07:36, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

If you want to have a private conversation with DMacks, here is the link.[2] If someone asks for a guideline and you post a public reply that quotes a non-guideline, you shouldn't be surprised when somebody calls you on it. --Guy Macon (talk) 07:55, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia calls it a guideline (Wikipedia:Reference desk/Guidelines/Medical advice); tens of thousands of Users call it a guideline; you don't. That's OK but why direct your views at me? Where can I go to read your carefully reasoned, objective, constructive argument in favour of deleting or re-naming this "guideline"? Have you persuaded any other User to join you? Dolphin (t) 13:05, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia calls User:Guy Macon/Guidelines/No Es allowed! a guideline; tens of thousands of Users (I have the same amount of evidence backing up this claim as you do) call it a guideline; you don't. Where can I go to read your carefully reasoned, objective, constructive argument in favour of deleting or re-naming the "No Es allowed!" guideline? Have you persuaded any other User to join you?

It just so happens that we already have a policy on Wikipedia that tells us what is and what is not a guideline. You can read it at Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines (shortcut: WP:RULES). We even have a list of them at Wikipedia:List of policies and guidelines (shortcut: WP:PGLIST). And we have a policy and guideline proposal process (shortcut: WP:PROPOSAL) which explains exactly how to turn your made-up rule into an actual rule.

You may find WP:IDHT to be helpful. --Guy Macon (talk) 16:04, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

So we need to look at this closer. Let not talk about the wrong behavior but rather what is wrong with said page. See this is being talked about on the chat line ....let not metion blocks but rather content involved. So called gaming the system may be unintentional and based in good faith understanding of our policies--Moxy 🍁 03:25, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

NOT medical advice

As I have stated I would do before, I have unhatted a simple factual question that was incorrectly shut down as a request for medical advice when it clearly wasn't. It did not contain any request for diagnosis. Stop doing this. Fgf10 (talk) 09:13, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Thank you Fgf10. I support your action. We see too many examples of question and answer threads being hidden or removed from the Reference desks inappropriately. We have an excellent set of guidelines related to the Reference desks - see Wikipedia:Reference desk/Guidelines. On the matter of removing question and answer threads related to medical and legal questions, there is even a Section directly addressing the subject - see Wikipedia:Reference desk#When removing or redacting a posting. A couple of pieces of advice are particularly relevant when a User is contemplating removing a question:

• But please use common sense — not all questions involving medical or legal topics are seeking advice.

• When you remove a posting, it is recommended to note this on the Reference desk talk page. Include a diff of your edit.

There is also extra guidance information directly aimed at requests for medical advice – see Wikipedia:Reference desk/Guidelines/Medical advice. In particular, see Dealing with questions asking for medical advice. This contains a couple of pieces of advice that are particularly relevant when a User is contemplating removing a question and its answers:

• Furthermore, as a courtesy, it may be appropriate to inform the person on their talk page why their response was removed.

• Although removal of questions is discouraged, if this is done, please follow the procedure below.

• Also, note the removal of the question by posting the diff on the talk page of the Reference desk.

I have seen a number of examples of experienced Users surreptitiously removing and hiding question and answer threads. I don't recall ever seeing one of these experienced Users subsequently posting their diff or a brief explanation on the Ref desk Talk page, as recommended in the Guidelines. Dolphin (t) 11:34, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

I queried this with the editor who hatted the thread, Elizium23, on their talk page. Although they have edited since, they have not so far done me the courtesy of a reply. --Viennese Waltz 12:04, 6 October 2020 (UTC)