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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Jon1901 (talk | contribs) at 13:47, 9 February 2021 (→Same-sex marriage). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.


We need secondary sources

@Wing gundam:, in this addition you state that the addition is verifiable, using primary sources. However, primary sources, which have been plaguing this artifcle for years, do not establish the notability of any of PH's views, we need high-quality secondary sources to do that. If the views are as illuminating as you claim it should be easy to find reliable secondary sources; otherwise we shouldn't include about this as the article needs to be about PH as seen in 3rd party sources and not what PH says. ♫ RichardWeiss talk contribs 16:18, 2 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@RichardWeiss, the trouble with this is it conveniently enables Peter to hide his published views. A complete article about him needs to point to what he has written. Favonian and Neiltonks have been using your logic to remove an entire section showing his anti-vaxxer views.Men2ge4zhong3 (talk) 11:27, 28 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

pic

@New Canadian: Please don not claim there is no need to open a talk page thread, that instead you can just edit war. Please explain why you think an image of his brother, which helps illustrate his background, is unnecessary? Your argument in your edit summary that he has his own article would be an argument to never include a pic of anybody except in their own artoicle. Please point out the policy or guideline where this is a "requirement" ♫ RichardWeiss talk contribs 09:55, 23 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

You might as well argue we should remove the George Bell pic, why aren't you arguing that? I've now shifted the pic to the elft so there is no conflict of space between it and the infobox, not that there was anyway IMO but it looks better as is. ♫ RichardWeiss talk contribs 11:19, 23 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Anti-vaxxer section

Please can we reach consensus on a new section showing Peter Hitchens' vaccine hesitancy? I had proposed the following: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Peter_Hitchens&oldid=969956370#Views_on_vaccination. However, this was reverted, then restored, then reverted again by CLCStudent, each time without explanation. In case the reversions were inadvertent, @CLCStudent, please can you explain your position and whether this section is fine?Men2ge4zhong3 (talk) 12:53, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The BMJ piece does not appear to be an article. It's a "letter to the editor" merely quoting the Daily Mail. The extra level of indirection does not make the reference more legit. Favonian (talk) 19:07, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
So Favonian, is your assertion that this page cannot reference Peter's anti-vaxxer views, because you regard the citing of a GP's letter to the British Medical Journal, referencing the original articles in a(n albeit disreputable) national newspaper, not to be strong enough? And while we are on the topic, do you regard the many other citations on the page, which you have let stand, all to be more authoritative than a GP's letter to the British Medical Journal? This is disappointingly inconsistent, and it is difficult not to infer from the particularly high bar you are setting for this citation (which after all, is just pointing to a journalist's published views) that you have set your heart on preventing Peter's anti-vaxxer views appearing on his page. Given that another admin (CLCStudent, as you can see below) has also come around to the anti-vaxxer section not being censored, please can we leave it there? Men2ge4zhong3 (talk) 19:36, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
As an update, Favonian, this has now been approved by Neiltonks also. While you may maintain the view that a GP's letter published in the British Medical Journal is not good evidence of the pieces having existed (which is all that is being suggested), can I ask please that you refrain from overriding him, me and CLCStudent on this? My reason for asking is that to censor this vaccination section on those grounds would be inconsistent: the article is dripping with self-promotion, riddled with citation of far less reputable provenance than a GP's published letter to the BMJ, and so it seems unfair to start with this, even if the premise about GPs and the BMJ is true (which I hope you will agree it is not!). All the page now does it shows Peter's past work on that topic, and readers can judge him on that basis. Men2ge4zhong3 (talk) 19:47, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Men2ge4zhong3, please understand that my 'approval' was simply to accept the pending change. This doesn't mean any more than that the change wasn't obviously bad in my opinion (e.g. not vandalism, not referenced to a source that's been declared unreliable etc.) It doesn't mean it can't be challenged by other editors, as my opinion doesn't carry any more weight than anyone else's. Think of pending change reviewers as gatekeepers, keeping out the obviously bad so that other editors with an interest in the topic of the article can concentrate on improving it rather than having to deal with the obviously inappropriate edits. Neiltonks (talk) 21:40, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Without thirrid party sources we cannot include anything in thsi article. ♫ RichardWeiss talk contribs 20:08, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Richard, this is a doctor's letter published by the British Medical Journal pointing to the existence of Peter's articles in a national newspaper. Please can you explain your deletion, on which you did not seek consensus before overriding me and the two other admins who have discussed it on this page? Men2ge4zhong3 (talk) 20:12, 29 July 2020 (UTC
Indeed it is, which means it is NOT a reliable, 3rd party source. We know Peter's views appear in British news sources but that is not sufficient for inclusion here. What has admins got to do with anything, admins don't have greater weight when it comes to discussing than non-admins, at least try to understand how Wikipedia works. This 3rd party sources issue is not new, e.g., look at the review of the article a while back where it failed to become a "good article" due to improper use of 1st party and/or user-generated sources. ♫ RichardWeiss talk contribs 20:18, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I have removed the section. This is not a reliable 3rd party source of the standard we require here. If his views are notable they will appear in reliable 3rd party sources, if they don't appear in said sources the views are not notable for inclusion. The problem with this is it user-generated, I could such a page and then use it to verify whatever I wanted on Wikipedia. Do NOT reinsert his views on vaccines without a reliable 3rd party source, there are plenty of examples in the article. ♫ RichardWeiss talk contribs 20:14, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Richard, your pretext for censoring this section is inaccurate. This is not user generated. It is a registered GP's published response to a BMJ article. You could not have such a response to the BMJ published. As if this were not third party source enough, the existence of the pieces is also evidenced in the national newspaper in which they were published. Why is it that the BMJ source and the newspaper source here are being used to censor the entire anti-vaxxer section, yet there are other sources to the self-same newspaper elsewhere which you let stand? Men2ge4zhong3 (talk) 20:19, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
You are looking for trouble if you start to accuse me of censoring this article. I suggest you strike that comment. How is sticking to policies "censorship?" Censorship would be removing reliable, 3rd party sources, which I have not done. Go find those reliable, 3rd party sources rather than blaming other editors because such sources appear unavailable. Yes, it is user-generated, the users may be GPs but they generate these pages as users, meaning it is not a 3rd party source. I am not denying Hitchens has opinions on this and many subjects but to include them we need reliable 3rd party sources. Nobody is censoring anything, you are assuming bad faith in your accusations of censorship, which leaves me disturbed. ♫ RichardWeiss talk contribs 20:25, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
By censorship I mean you have removed this section entirely from view. I am happy to relabel this "removal", but it remains that you are depriving Wiki users of an entire section (and one particularly significant for assessing Peter's thought) because of your assertion that a registered GP's published letter to the BMJ is not enough to show that something exists. Remember, Richard, all the citation is supposed to show is that the articles exist. Elsewhere on the page there are fake citations (for example, the COVID section is largely uncited, and where is cited, some of the citations have nothing to do with Peter - so why is that section still standing?); there are university newspapers and unknown online outlets like Joe.com; there is even a Mail on Sunday citation. Yet here you are removing an entire section because it points to the existence of the articles it pertains to, and these articles are published by the same newspaper group and, crucially, are referenced by a the doctor's published letter also. Are you really satisfied that you have applied the same standards to the rest of this Wiki page? Some sentences aren't even cited at all; others are cited, but when you click the link you find they have nothing at all with Peter. It is still not clear to me why you so resolute on hiding this anti-vaxxer section from view, given this context. Men2ge4zhong3 (talk) 20:32, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think the fact that it's in the Daily Mail is a red herring. I 100% agree we couldn't cite a Daily Mail news article to show that Hitchens said something. And I hope we all agree that if this Hitchens column had been in the NY Times, it still couldn't be used as a reliable third party source about "facts" either. But in the same way we can cite someone's blog to show that they actually said something (WP:ABOUTSELF), we can cite a Hitchens column in the Daily News to show Hitchens said something. If this column had been posted in the NY Times opinion pages, that wouldn't make it more or less eligible for inclusion.

    So to me, as an uninvolved observer, I think discussion could better be focused on: do we think this is a notable thing to include? Is it undue weight? That's an editorial decision (i.e. even if it is undisputed true that he said this - and it is - it is possible to collectively make the editorial decision not to include it). Do other sources discuss Hitchens' opinion? Do they need to be reliable in order to demonstrate the notability of his vaccination opinions? Does this help the reader understand the article subject? Do his other "views" in the "Views" section have the same rigorous sourcing (seems like a lot of blogs in those sections)? etc. I'll leave that discussion for people better versed in Mr. Hitchens' history. But I don't think we can just say "WP:DAILYMAIL1" and think we're done. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:26, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    Agreed, the Daily Mail point is a red herring. A photo of something simply shows it; a link to a journalist's published views simply shows those views. It is confused to say (rightly) that the Daily Mail may not be a credible source of authority for a statement, and therefore (wrongly) that it cannot be cited to show what a Daily Mail journalist has written. As for the weighting of Peter Hitchens' vaccine hesitancy, it is part of Peter Hitchens' work that he wrote the words I quoted. This is not currently visible to the public, because RichardWeiss and El cid, el campeador have removed entirely. But the two articles, which referenced each other, are as much among his views as the other stuff. It is surprising that RichardWeiss and El cid, el campeador have been particularly focused on removing the vaccine-related content, with its citations (whether Daily Mail or British Medical Journal), and yet were perfectly happy with whole paragraphs uncited (or fake-cited, without reference to Peter) in the COVID section, and an uncited sentence in the intro yesterday describing him as "staunchly principled". They will no doubt demonstrate why this is the case, rewarding our assumption that they are acting in good faith. Men2ge4zhong3 (talk) 21:55, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    Could you please dial back the snark? I promise it is not helping your case. Just focus on content. --Floquenbeam (talk) 22:00, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
User:RichardWeiss, could you please respond? You have imposed your view on Menge and ignored the thoughtful defence of his edits put forward by Floquenbeam above, as well as the other admins who at various points approved them or edits like them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.96.27.70 (talk) 03:08, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
We can only use PH to source PH when he is talking about himself, as per WP:RS. We cannot use him expounding his views on any subject other than himself to establish those views as notable and nobody is providing reliable third-party sources to establñish the notability of these views. I am not claiming these aren't his views, simply that these views aren't notable, exactly the same as with his views on LGBT, another controversial subject that has been deleted from the article because of lack of reliable third-party sources. We as editors do NOT get to decide which of PH's views are notable, we use 3rd-party sources to indicate notability. BMJ is suer-generated and the Mail is PH himself so neither are reliable third-party sources. If people continue disagreeing with this I suggest going to Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard and seeing what the folk over there say, but less us know here if you do so. ♫ RichardWeiss talk contribs 17:21, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Floquenbeam, I have no idea whether admins have edited this article recently but when it comes to editing admins have no special privileges. All I am doing is enforcing our policies and guidelines, especially Wikipedia:Reliable sources#Questionable and self-published sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by RichardWeiss (talk • contribs)
@RichardWeiss: I don't know why you're pinging me. I have never said, or acted as if, or implied, that admins have special editing privileges. Pinging me while saying this implies I have done so. Hopefully you are replying to the IP editor and singled me out in error, because otherwise that's an obnoxious thing to say. --Floquenbeam (talk) 17:53, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Covid comments

It looks like there has been some back-and-forth on Peter_Hitchens#COVID-19_Pandemic_and_UK_Lockdown_Views, but it seems WP:UNDUE versus the rest of the article. What do people think? Darren-M talk 17:34, 28 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Darren-M, this is agreed and is one issue to seek consensus on (another is just above). The section reads like a personal website, summarising Peter's views with citations which are either not notable or are notable but do not reference Peter. I tried to remove this in one of my edits, but it was reverted without explanation by Serols. @Serols, please can we reach a consensus here on how to proceed? I note that Davey2010 had approved my change before you reverted it, but now we are bound to ask you what you require to make the change acceptable, since you did not state a reason for your reversion. Thanks in advance.Men2ge4zhong3 (talk) 12:53, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Upon examination, I am fine if it is re-added. CLCStudent (talk) 18:50, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I have put these back up. It seems that Favonian is now querying the source, but it is not clear to me how a GP's letter published by the British Medical Journal is not enough to support the fact of Peter having published these anti-vaxxer views. I am hopeful that this section will not now be censored yet again. Men2ge4zhong3 (talk) 19:38, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Sentences like "Peter holds no qualifications or experience in medicine, science or public health policy" will never be acceptable (and unless you are mates with him, don't refer to him as "Peter", that goes for all subjects of articles). You clearly have some sort of vendetta - you are a single-purpose account with a tendency to exaggerate the urgency of your edits who has consistently failed to assume good faith with other editors. The content you actually want to add is clearly biased against Hitchens. Your edits are clearly using synthesis as well - taking things he said decades apart and using them to form the contention that he is an 'anti-vaxxer' - that's not the opinion I get from reading his explanation of the earlier comments - he is clearly not against all vaccines, and was apparently saying we should be more cautious about them. Further, as someone who has written 9 books, are two comments he made worthy of an entire section? - maybe, maybe not. But you're not providing any evidence either way. ‡ Єl Cid of Valencia talk 21:02, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
If your argument is that you don't like one sentence, then your edit should have been to delete the sentence, not the section. The rest of your comment is aggrandising Peter and belittling me. Not sure how to respond except to point to Floquenbeam's comment in the anti-vaxxer section above. Men2ge4zhong3 (talk) 21:55, 29 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
User:El cid, el campeador, please can you respond? You have taken down an entire section and cited just one of its sentences in justification, then ignored Menge's challenge. Why shouldn't the public know about Hitchens' history of writing about science/health/policy despite no knowledge of it? It is dangerous, significant and currently hidden from Wikipedians& view, despite Menge's efforts above. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.96.27.70 (talk) 03:16, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
User:El cid, el campeador, I agree with everything you say here. ♫ RichardWeiss talk contribs 17:13, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

according to peter hitchens: https://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2019/03/wikipedia-and-me-new-developments.html The photograph is the property of the Mail on Sunday and so violates the copyright rules on picture reproduction. That is why I removed it. Please present evidence of it being public domain before re-adding it. It should be removed from wikipedia if it does violate copyright. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gd123lbp (talk • contribs) 00:25, 14 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Good of you to dig that up on Peter's behalf ;) glad to see you back online, User:Gd123lbp — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.96.27.70 (talk) 03:17, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Gun rights

The gun-rights section contains no third-party sources establishing the notability of the section, merely stuff PH says. So I am removing the section. To restore the section you need to add reliable third-party sources establishing the notability of these views. ♫ RichardWeiss talk contribs 17:28, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

fair enough, I was thinking of removing it too. Thanks. Gd123lbp (talk) 00:04, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree. I think it was a worthwhile section to have been recently added, and it's absolutely fine referencing sources written by that person if it demonstrates their views (so long as those views are signicant and relevant to the article about that person, which I think these were). See WP:ABOUTSELF if anyone feels the need justification for its retention. In essence, we do not need 3rd party sources to have reported Hitchens' views, providing we can accurately cite sources which show what he said. Even if that source is normally regarded as 'unreliable', in the context of an article about a person employed by that source, it is absolutely OK to cite it. Please reinstate the deleted content. Nick Moyes (talk) 00:02, 29 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
As per my comment in the 'article sanitisation' section below, I believe third party sources are required to establish which of Hitchens' views are the salient ones. Hitchens has commented on many things over the years, and third party sources should be used to establish which of those views are the most important/notable. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 01:55, 29 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Notability is about whether to have an article, not about what toi include in it.Once the article topic is deemed notable, any relevant content may be included, and need not be separately notable, as long as it is relevant, supported by proper sources, (which can include self-published sources for the subject's own views) and not being given undue weight. A brief mention is rarely undue weight. RichardWeiss is quite mistaken on the policy point above. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 02:54, 30 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Can I suggest a compromise? While not every one of Hitchens' opinions is worth including (imagine if he mentioned his favourite toothpaste in a blog), some are still appropriate, but without independent sources I suggest they simply should not merit their own section. Surely his opinions on guns fall under some other broader philosophy/political stand of his and thus relate to a general encyclopedic understanding of who he is? But at the same time, if they haven't been talked about independently, then do they really merit their own subsection? WP:N is a guide for article creation, but I use it constantly for determining how worthwhile any given chunk of an article is. tldr: Keep opinion on gun rights, but don't overstate its importance by giving it undue length or its own section. — Hazzzzzz12 (talk) 03:08, 30 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Nick Moyes: PH isn't writing about himself when it comes to gun rights. I agree that when writing about himself, first party sources are acceptable but gun rights has nothing to do with PH or his life, this is merely him expressing his opinion about a political issue and therefore fails WP:ABOUTSELF. ♫ RichardWeiss talk contribs 14:01, 2 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@DESiegel: Some quotes from Wikipedia:Notability for you. "Availability of secondary sources covering the subject is a good test for notability." This is exactly what I said, so how is the page not about what to include? It goes on to say "Sources"[2] should be secondary sources, as those provide the most objective evidence of notability." This is exactly what I am saying. ♫ RichardWeiss talk contribs 14:19, 2 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
RichardWeiss Yes that is a test for notability in many circumstances, meaning whether or not to have an article about a given topic. However the WP:NOTEWORTHY section of that same page says The criteria applied to the creation or retention of an article are not the same as those applied to the content inside it. The notability guidelines do not apply to contents of articles or lists (with the exception of lists which restrict inclusion to notable items or people). Content coverage within a given article or list (i.e. whether something is noteworthy enough to be mentioned within the article or list) is governed by the principle of due weight and other content policies. And in reply to your comment to Nick Moyes above, when a person expressions an opinion about any subject, he (or she) is writing about what his (or her) own opinion is, and thus about himself. WP:ABOUTSELF absolutely applies to such statements. Indeed there can hardly be a better source than a person's own writings as to what that person's opinions are. There is still the principle of Due Weight to apply. A person might note on a personal web site that that person strongly prefers Mint Chip ice cream to Vanilla. There may be no question that this is accurate, and it is verifiable. But it would be a case of undue weight to mention it in a Wikipedia article, unless it was somehow significant -- perhaps if the person was in the business of making ice cream. The key point is that Notability is not the standard for inclusion of a particular fact in an article. Due weight and relevance are, along with editorial judgement. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 14:58, 2 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Hazzzzzz12: but you have no source that his views on gun rights are more notable than his views on LGBT and a whole range of other subjects from changing the clocks to Boris Johnson. Nobody is explaining what is the importance of gun rights within the wide range of beliefs espoused by Hitchens but all his other beliefs which we mention, such as about cannabis and George Bell, have secondary sources to justify their inclusion. We either justify with secondary sources or based on editors' opinions, and the latter is NOT how Wikpedia works. ♫ RichardWeiss talk contribs 14:23, 2 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's fair enough. I don't disagree with you on this specific case (although I do disagree that Wikipedia is never shaped—carefully—by editors' opinions). My point was mainly to agree with you that without 3rd party citation, there should not be a Gun Rights (sub)section. But if there were reason to include his opinions on gun rights elsewhere as it pertained to, for example, individual liberties, we shouldn't exclude it for the same reason. — Hazzzzzz12 (talk) 21:49, 2 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Pointless photo of George Bell

Lets get rid of the photo of George Bell, the point about him is so tiny and insignificant compared to everything else relating to hitchens. Ive already tried to get rid of it but its been re added for no reason.Gd123lbp (talk) 01:20, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. The wikilink to George Bell (bishop) suffices. The image is irrelevant, provided the text accurately portrays the sub-topic. We don't need an image of a gun or a Wikipedia logo to illustrate the fact that he has expressed strong views on these subjects. Nick Moyes (talk) 00:07, 29 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
What have you guys got against illustrating Wikipedia? And want policies and guidelines are you using to de-image Wikipedia? And Nick, we don't need to mention gun views at all unless you can find some 3rd party sources backing your belief that these are notable views. Besides, readers know what guns look like but they don't know what George Bell looks like, as I am sure you were aware when commenting. ♫ RichardWeiss talk contribs 14:14, 2 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I see your point about de-illustrating Wikipedia, but it's unclear to me why a reader of this article needs to know what George Bell looked like. — Hazzzzzz12 (talk) 21:37, 2 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Article sanitisation?

As a passer-by, I want to comment on the recent sanitisation of this article, especially by the removal of worthwhile sections about Hitchen's own expressed views. Their extirpation appears to be being justified by a few active editors using the invalid rationale that no third party source had reported that Hitchens expressed those views, and that they are therefore not notable and should be deleted. This is tosh. Providing the views can be demonstrably shown to be written and published by Hitchens, and are of significance in the context of the person's influence or role in society, then they should NOT be removed on those grounds. It's fine that the WP:DAILYMAIL has been declared 'unreliable' by Wikipedians as a Reliable Source, but when it comes to Wikipedia reporting the published views of one of its notable employees, then we are quite free to use those sources. Failing to do so is a a somewhat stupid mis-application of policy See WP:ABOUTSELF. Picking just two recent examples: I would say that his recently added views on gun control and on his own Wikipedia artcile are absoultely relevant, and should be reinstated immediately. It would not be unreasonable to wonder whether any editor removing such cited content might not have a WP:COI or some agenda to sanitise this article. Nick Moyes (talk) 00:44, 29 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I can't think which policy or guideline covers this, but for a long time I've been under the impression that third party sources are required in these circumstances, in order to highlight which views of a subject are the significant ones. Otherwise, the significance of one view over another is being decided by Wikipedia editors, which is a form of original research. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 01:48, 29 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I think if that were carried to the extreme, you might then have reason to be concerned about WP:OR. But only in extremis. The alternative is a cleansing of an article about a public persona's key views on notable topics when they have publicly expressed strong views about them through formal publication (even when employed by what we, here, regard as a unreliable source like the DM). WP:ABOUTSELF indicates this is ok, whereas WP:TRIVIA allows editors to remove any unwanted chaff and/or fancruft if carried too far. The removal of any mention of strong, publicly-expressed and properly published views by the subject of an article, as appears to have been happening here to some extent, seems quite inappropriate (on the proviso that each can be linked to a citation to their expressed views.) That mention should, of course, be brief and not seek to expand unduly upon it, per WP:COATRACK. Nick Moyes (talk) 10:20, 29 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
We can include his views when 3rd party sources establish their notability. ♫ RichardWeiss talk contribs 14:03, 2 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
We all need to read and take Talk:Peter Hitchens/GA1 on board, when I came here the first thing I did was read this and then apply it, and I keep on° applying it in spite of the resistance of certain editors, but we absolutely need to take the criticisms to heart and apply them , and that means relying for the most part on 3rd party sources and especially when it comes to PH's views. We could also get another assessment but it is fundamentally going in the wrong direction to recreate an article that fails to meet GA criteria. ♫ RichardWeiss talk contribs 14:10, 2 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

TalkRADIO interviews with hitchens as sources? 2nd party sources?

There have been a lot of new edits recently which have included sources directly from Hitchens' column (which I am trying to remove) and also sources which are just interviews with Hitchens. I am not sure if these should be acceptable? WP:IS

For instance: Graham, Mike; Hitchens, Peter (22 June 2020). "Peter Hitchens: Oxford statue protests were 'the establishment on parade'". talkRADIO. Retrieved 29 October 2020. Gd123lbp (talk) 19:13, 30 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Rhodes Must Fall movement section

just a friendly question, is this section notable? "Rhodes Must Fall movement Upon reporting on the third day of Rhodes Must Fall protests at Oxford University in June 2020,[89] footage of Hitchens strolling through the streets of the university, followed by protesters who opposed his presence, emerged.[90] One video, edited and set to "Stayin' Alive" by the Bee Gees, went viral and was watched nearly one million times.[91] Speaking to Mike Graham on talkRADIO, Hitchens described the protests as "the Establishment on parade".[89]"

So... we have evidence that Peter Hitchens walked down the street near oxford university and music was playing at the time... is that notable? "protesters opposed his presence" - if there was an explanation of why, then this might be notable... He then (without explanation) said that "the establishment was on parade". Perhaps if that was explained it would be notable? Gd123lbp (talk) 23:15, 23 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Gd123lbp: If you think the section isn't noteworthy then by all means remove it. The reason I included it was really to include Hitchens' views on the Rhodes Must Fall/Black Lives Matter movement, although I agree that as it stands it doesn't really do that justice. --Bangalamania (talk) 21:39, 24 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Bangalamania I think youve made some great edits recently, I dont really want to delete this because I feel there might be some content in his comment "establishment on parade" and other things. It defo needs to be edited. Gd123lbp (talk) 01:27, 25 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Youtube video

Gd123lbp has reverted to insert a youtube video from a channel called "Triggernometry", which just appears to be self-published content from two people, not WP:RS. In it Hitchens is rambling about COVID-19 and entertaining various fringe ideas, including that masks (which he calls "muzzles") do not reduce viral transmission. Removed per WP:RSPYT and WP:ELNO. Gd123lbp, you are aware of the general sanctions applying to COVID-19, and that replacement of material removed for a credible reasons shall not be replaced without consensus - so why have you done this. I suggest you self-revert. Alexbrn (talk) 08:38, 19 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I did this because it seemed to be removed for non credible reasons. you said it was "self published" aka hitchens had published it. That's not the case. I suppose you have an argument for removing as a non reliable source but as a video link I would think it would be fair to direct to Hitchens' own words. Whether we agree with what he is saying is another matter, this is a section about hitchens' views. You can remove it again if you wish, my objection was to the false reason you gave for deleting it; that it was published by hitchens. We also don't use the phrase misinformation, that's not neutral, some of the things he says could be wrong others right. Hitchens makes no claims of being a medical expert in this field, nor are his claims primarily concerned with medicine. The word misinformation has rightly been removed from other articles when added. Nevertheless you have given other reasons for removal so I will leave you to edit with those reasons. Gd123lbp (talk) 11:35, 19 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Read WP:SPS, particularly the explanatory note "Self-published material is characterized by the lack of independent reviewers (those without a conflict of interest) validating the reliability of content". These comedians' "free speech channel" is self-published by them, using an array of ... interesting characters for content. Since you are not self-reverting, but agreeing to reversion, I shall do it for you. Alexbrn (talk) 11:45, 19 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Same-sex marriage

The LGBT rights and marriage section states (using a Pink News article as a source), "Hitchens was one of the most outspoken opponents of same-sex marriage in 2013, the year before same-sex marriage was legal in Britain" although he later came to regret his involvement in it. But by 2013, he had already concluded that opposing same-sex marriage was a waste of time because it only led to being called a bigot and a homophobe and, in his view, what he saw as the weakening of heterosexual marriage was much more important. See this Spectator article and this Question Time appearance (go to 5:03 and 12:34), both from 2012. There are earlier examples of Hitchens expressing views against homosexuality and same-sex civil unions -- for example a 2002 Mail on Sunday column in which he criticised the Tory MP Alan Duncan for coming out as gay, but by 2013 he had given up on the issue and was mainly concerned by what he saw as the increasing "liberal bigotry" over it (see QT appearance above) rather than the issue itself. In 2018 I wrote an LGBT issues section which was more accurate, though it was later taken down because it wasn't considered notable enough. Jon1901 (talk) 13:45, 9 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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