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September 1

Isn't it?

In the the English language it is not unusual to finish a statement with a question, such as, "It's a beautiful day, isn't it?" That's also used in phrases like "Lets go to the zoo, shan't we?". Does this construct have a grammatical or common name? Cheers, 202.87.166.165 (talk) 15:05, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It does, 202.87.166.165! It's a question tag. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 15:09, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That was fast! Obviously that wasn't too difficult, was it? At least not for you ;). Thank you very, very much! Cheers, 202.87.166.165 (talk) 15:15, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ha ha every now and then I luck out, don't I :) Cheers to you, 70.67.193.176 (talk) 15:45, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I've heard it frequently in America, but even more frequently among Brits, it seems. Kind of a conversation starter. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:10, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

And in light of the "ain't" discussion earlier, I'm reminded of this line from the song "Alley Oop": "He sho' is hip, ain't he." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:05, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

English (but not all varieties) and the Celtic languages are apparently the only ones where the form of the tag question varies depending on the foregoing words, so that there are dozens of possible variants: wouldn't they, didn't she, haven't I, shouldn't they, won't you, etc (after a positive statement), and would they, did she, have I etc (after a negative statement). In French, n'est-ce pas is used for all these. That literally means "isn't it", and even in some varieties of English "isn't it" is always used. For example, Indian and Sri Lankan English. My partner, although an Australian citizen for the majority of his life and although English has always been his primary language, was born in Sri Lanka, and when we were first together I was occasionally befuddled by his "isn't it" when we had not been talking about any "it". More likely a person.

There'll only be 5 for lunch tomorrow.
But Carol's still coming, isn't it?.
Isn't what?
Carol.
Oh no, she called and cancelled. I thought I told you.
No. You forgot, isn't it?
Isn't what? ...... -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:41, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The use of "Innit" is quite common in many coloquial British dialects, as in "She was 20 minutes late, Innit?" -- Q Chris (talk) 10:07, 2 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yet the same people never use the word "shwee", as in "Let's go to the zoo, shwee?", perhaps because they're afraid to sound stupid. Card Zero (talk) 14:18, 2 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"Innit" was originally a feature of Multicultural London English [1] Alansplodge (talk) 16:11, 2 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

In literary Finnish, the tag question is usually a negotiation of the verb of the previous sentence:

Mutta Carol tulee silti, eikö tulekin? ("But Carol is still coming, isn't she coming?")
Ei. Unohdit, etkö unohtanutkin? ("No. You forgot, didn't you forget?")

However, this construct is hardly ever used in colloquial Finnish, people usually just say "vai mitä?" ("or what?") or simply "vai?" ("or?"). JIP | Talk 01:45, 2 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Jack's partner's "Carol's still coming, isn't it" reminds me of Welsh English. DuncanHill (talk) 02:09, 2 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that's mentioned in Welsh English#Distinctive vocabulary and grammar. Alansplodge (talk) 16:07, 2 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

On Wikipedia, you can get smacked for referring to a person as "it". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:37, 2 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hit? (That was fine in Old English, but stopped being OK in Middle English.) Card Zero (talk) 17:12, 2 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You could argue that "it" refers to the circumstance of "Carol still coming" rather than Carol herself, but I may be overthinking it (or her). Alansplodge (talk) 10:13, 3 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Carol's husband must be very proud of himself by now... --Jayron 32 17:29, 3 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

So maybe an abbreviation for "isn't it so?" ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:30, 3 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly. Alansplodge (talk) 08:50, 4 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The grammar police pull over JackofOz for excessive punctuation, but let him off with a warning. Clarityfiend (talk) 08:07, 2 September 2021 (UTC) [reply]

We ain't got no damn punky-whatsits here. There's nobody here but us damn chickens. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 23:47, 2 September 2021 (UTC) [reply]

And guillemots! Don't forget the guillemots. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.122.0.2 (talk) 15:06, 3 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

September 7

What does "several" mean??

All dictionaries I've seen say "several" means more than 2 but less than many. However, in practice, "several" often means a number that is sometimes more than 2 but less than many, but can also be exactly 2. Which definition was intended originally?? Georgia guy (talk) 20:24, 7 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I would never say "several" to mean two, except in a phrase like "joint and several liability" or "the several states", where it's not really talking about how many there are but about the fact that they are being considered separately. --Trovatore (talk) 20:45, 7 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

several (adj.) early 15c., "existing apart," from Anglo-French several, from Old French seperalis "separate"... Meaning "various, diverse, different" is attested from c. 1500; that of "more than one" is from 1530s, originally in legal use. [2] Alansplodge (talk) 20:47, 7 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

~~It's even older.~~ The OED Online gives the earliest sense as "Having a position, existence, or status apart; separate, distinct" and gives usage examples as far back as 1422 when James Yonge wrote: "So oweste thow, Alexander, to haue v messagers and v consaillours, and euery of tham shall be seuerall". Clearly the last part means "every one of them shall be separate". By 1509 the word had been extended to mean "a number of different; various, divers, sundry", and this was later "merged into" the modern meaning where it normally implies more than 2. --184.144.99.72 (talk) 22:28, 7 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Wasn't 1422 in the early 15th century? Alansplodge (talk) 22:51, 7 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes; the early 15th century is 1400-1449; the late 15th century is 1450-1499. (There is no zeroth century; when we name a century we add one.) Georgia guy (talk) 23:24, 7 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry about that; I paid attention to the dates "c. 1500" and "1950s" and missed the one that used a different notation. --184.144.99.72 (talk) 05:26, 8 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If I were being flippant, several is four to eight. But I think the crux of several is that it's a number that the speaker can't or isn't willing to quantify. It's used more to mean 'entirely too many for my taste,' less often positive eg "I got several nice hugs and kisses." Its vagueness makes it very effective weasel word fodder: "Why are you so mad at me for shaving your head while you were asleep, when you have been mean to me SEVERAL times?" The original meaning is not important in terms of how you should use it today, but if you go back farther than above it meant, kind of, 'prepare apart.' Temerarius (talk) 22:37, 7 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It's used widely on Wikipedia in sentences like "As well as his novels, he wrote several plays". Sometimes that fits the small number of plays he wrote (5, say), but sometimes it turns out he wrote dozens of them. I suppose it would not be strictly untrue to say "The universe contains several stars", but that sort of massively fails to convey the sense of the numbers involved. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:44, 7 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Just to clear this up, we're talking about "several" meaning a number that can be equal to 2. Spike 'em reverted an edit of mine just before I started this post; the edit relates to using "several" when it's usually 2. Georgia guy (talk) 23:28, 7 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It appears you mean This revert. Spike'em is 100% correct, and you are completely wrong. Your edit changed the header to "two", which is a precise number, and most of the examples given are not of groups of exactly 2. --Jayron 32 12:05, 8 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The section whose heading you changed clearly covered situations where more than 2 people were sometimes included, so "two" seems more restrictive and less accurate than "several". The first 2 examples are pages that cover more than 2 people. Spike 'em (talk) 05:59, 8 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Asking if "several" can be used to mean exactly "two" invites the answer "it would probably not be interpeted by the listener or reader that way"; especially as there are words reserved specifically for that very meaning ("two" and "couple" being the most common). Your assertion that it can mean exactly 2 invites a request for some references showing that in use. Bazza (talk) 09:56, 8 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

While "just two" might technically qualify as "several", it normally means "not a lot, but more than two." If it was known to be exactly two, the speaker would likely say so - unless they were trying to exaggerate. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:23, 8 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The header would be better phrased as "multiple" or "two or more". 71.175.88.163 (talk) 12:46, 8 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

September 8

Petsuchos

In Age of Mythology, there is a mythical unit that represents the deity Sobek referred to as Petsuchos. According to the unit's infomation file, "Petsuchos" is supposed to be a Hellenistic transcription of an Egyptian word meaning "he who belongs to Suchos/Sobek". Now I've been trying to piece together the etymology for myself, but the closest I've managed to come up with is the mashup of ἕπετο (hépeto, derived from ἕπομαι (hépomai), using the meaning "I belong to, am inseparable from") with Σοῦχος (Soûkhos), which doesn't seem remotely natural, seeing how corrupted hépeto seems to be in order to approximate pet-, but then again, I barely know a single thing about Ancient Greek syntax (let alone Modern Greek syntax). Something that might be closer is πετάω (petáo, "to fly/throw"). The only mention of "Petsuchos" I could find on Wikipedia alone is that it is one of many localised dialect names of Sobek ("At Karanis, two forms of the god were worshipped: Pnepheros and Petsuchos. There, mummified crocodiles were employed as cult images of Petsuchos"). The other languages of the Sobek article mostly mention the names of some rulers who incorporated Sobek into their names (Sobekhotep ("Sobek is satisfied"), Sobekemsaf ("Sobek is our protection"), Neferusobek ("The beauty of Sobek"). Outside of that, not much luck, as any non-AoM website I can find keeps referring to the decorated crocodiles that live in Crocodilopolis as just "sacred crocodiles", "incarnates of Sobek", "embodiments of Sobek", "Sobek's children", or some other variation.

Any help would be appreciated. --72.234.12.37 (talk) 03:17, 8 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If this is indeed a Hellenistic transcription of an Egyptian word, it is pointless to look for Greek roots. Egyptian is an unrelated language. Egyptian pt, conventionally transcribed as pet, means "the sky, heavens", which is not what you are looking for if the information provided by the unit is correct. A hieroglyphic rendering of the name would settle this, but unfortunately the only known renderings are in the Greek alphabet (Πετσοῦχος or Πετεσοῦχος). Perhaps the prefix P3-tj of demotic P3-tj-Sbk referring to the same deity^[3] gave rise to the transcription Πετ(ε)-. In late Egyptian p3 or pꜣ is just a determiner, like English the, while tj means “you”, so this does not immediately bring us any further. However, pꜣwtj means “primaeval (god)”, which may be applicable to our divine crocodilian. --Lambiam 07:55, 8 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]