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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 80.112.177.218 (talk) at 11:22, 27 October 2021 (→‎Add to see also section: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 30 August 2021 and 13 December 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Kareena.agni (article contribs).

Incorrect Citation of IMA

We're not relitigating an RfC that closed a month ago. We're especially not relitigating it on the basis of a talkpage thread started by an editor whose 20-something edits in the last two years include this, this and this. Black Kite (talk) 18:22, 28 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The sentence in the introduction reads, "The Indian Medical Association labels Ayurvedic practitioners who claim to practice medicine as quacks." This is not what the quoted reference says, it seems to be distorted to fit the editor's POV.

The actual quote from the IMA website is : "Practitioners of Indian Medicine (Ayurvedic, Sidha, Tibb, Unani), Homeopathy, Naturopathy, commonly called Ayush, who are not qualified to practice Modern Medicine (Allopathy) but are practicing Modern Medicine."

Their claim is about those practising a modality that they are not trained in ("allopathy"), not "those who claim to practice medicine" as Wikipedia says. This distorted quote does not help in defining Ayurveda in any way, nor does it accurately reflect the reference, and should be removed from the introduction. Puck42 (talk) 14:28, 13 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This exact point has already been brought up approximately a billion times already. Please check out the archives at the top of the page to find out the consensus which has developed about this. BirdValiant (talk) 17:25, 13 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
"Allopathy" is simply a weasel word, originally coined by a homoeopath, for medicine. You can see why the IMA have used it, as lots of people in India consider unscientifically proven, often dangerous, alternative treatments to also be "medicine", but that doesn't make it the case. From the article: "Allopathic medicine, or allopathy, is an archaic term used to define science-based, modern medicine." Seems pretty clear-cut. Dāsānudāsa (talk) 21:27, 13 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Note that according to the closer there is no consensus on whether "medicine" meant only allopathic medicine or encompassed any form of "effective" medicine. As a result, the closing statement does not mention those points. Even if some may not like it, the source clearly differentiates modern and traditional medicine. As for speculating why it does that, Reliable sources may analyze and interpret, but for editors to do so would violate Wikipedia:No original research. Wikihc (talk) 01:53, 14 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
For future reference, Wikihc's reference to "the closer" evokes this now-archived RfC about the IMA statement in the lead. I don't feel any improper analysis/interpretation is happening here. "Medicine" is the most NPOV term we can use to describe what the IMA calls allopathy. Policy does not require use to use non-neutral terminology used in sources. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 02:00, 14 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Policy does require that sources are not misrepresented in the purview of their statements. Just as IMA, Medicine also uses the terms modern and traditional to differentiate. Wikihc (talk) 02:49, 14 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
We agree on policy proscribing misrepresenting sources. I don't feel the WP:OTHERCONTENT argument about Medicine is valid. Even if it were, that article quickly begins to use the unmodified medicine to refer to actual medicine, not traditional/alternative/complementary. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 02:54, 14 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
My example was merely in reference to the already quoted wiki article above which you found proper, that links to Medicine, and uses modern medicine as also [1],[2] [3] etc. Anyway, per prior consensus, Ayurveda itself already uses medicine when referring to Ayurveda throughout the article, and modern medicine when contrasting. Several WP:MEDRS that use neutral phrase modern medicine can be easily found (eg. [4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13] etc.). Thus, 'Modern medicine' is the most neutral and complete term to accurately represent the source. Wikihc (talk)
The IMA Citation is not objecting to Ayurveda practitioners practicing Ayurvedic medicine or healing people, but those that are prescribing non-Ayurvedic cures which they are not trained in. As such, IMA's opinion about Ayurvedic practitioners pursuing non-Ayurvedic medicine has nothing to do with defining or understanding Ayurveda and using that quote is POV-pushing. Suggest we tag article with WP:NPOV issues. Puck42 (talk) 17:11, 15 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The exact quote from the IMA is above, and is reproduced in the article, but with the word "medicine" replacing "Modern Medicine (Allopathy)", which is the same thing. Dāsānudāsa (talk) 17:34, 15 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That is your opinion and violates WP:NOR. It is neither said nor implied by the text of the citation which is distinguishing Ayurvedic medicine from Allopathy (as stated) and does not have a problem with the former. Puck42 (talk) 18:13, 16 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
While modern medicine is medicine, all medicine is not modern. Also the exact quote from IMA includes who are not qualified to practice Modern Medicine, which is missing from the article. Alternate phrasing that uses only medicine while alluding to the above lack of qualification has also been proposed. Wikihc (talk) 10:51, 16 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Wikihc: You say, "all medicine is not modern." I reject this assertion entirely.
Just because the term "alternative medicine" has the word "medicine" in it, that does not imply that alternative medicine is medicine, or that "medicine" as a category constitutes a set which includes "alternative medicine" within it. To say otherwise is comparable to saying that because there is a term jellyfish, that means that jellyfish are a kind of fish. Nowadays, the term "fish" both in common and professional/scientific use definitionally excludes other organisms such as jellyfish. While jellyfish may have been considered to be within the set of "fish" in the past, they are not anymore. Similarly, both in common and professional/scientific use, the word "medicine" is synonymous with "modern medicine". As a Venn diagram, "medicine" and "modern medicine" are the same size and they overlap completely; "medicine" is not larger than "modern medicine" nor is there room for it to contain "alternative medicine". So, as the way we use words has changed along with our understanding of the world through the passage of time, the category "medicine" no longer constitutes a set which includes "alternative medicine", if such a thing was ever the case. BirdValiant (talk) 14:59, 16 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That is your opinion, and is not the point of discussion. WP:STICKTOSOURCE It is neither said nor implied by the text of the citation which is distinguishing Ayurvedic medicine from Allopathy (as stated) and only labels quacks those Ayurvedic practitioners who are practising Allopathy. Puck42 (talk) 18:13, 16 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the attempt to set the record straight with your interpretation contesting the IMA which refers to all (incl. ayurveda) as distinct system of medicine Meanwhile, "all medicine is not modern" referred to its use in not just the source but also its existing use in the article (written for a general global audience) in context of ayurveda, per prior consensus. Modern medicine is a neutral, WP:MEDRS term, explicitly used by the source, and even recommended by WP:MEDMOS in this situation. We should avail this exact phrasing to accurately represent IMA's statement. Wikihc (talk) 18:45, 16 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
In fact, even if we replaced it with "modern medicine" the citation is irrelevant as a summary of Ayurveda. IMA's statement is about Ayurvedic practitioners not being allowed to practice allopathic medicine, which they are not trained in. Forcing the citation is POV pushing to label all of Ayurveda as "quacks" when that is not the purport of the reference. It adds no value and should be dropped. Puck42 (talk) 23:24, 16 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Puck42 There were people in the RfC who did consider IMA source as less than useful and wanted it removed, and as per the closer there was consensus on it. We could indeed downgrade the statement by removing it from the lede or the article. Wikihc (talk) 18:15, 23 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

6000BCE?

I have removed the claim of 6000BCE. No matter how many {cite books}, claiming such extraordinary antiquity is like turning the world upside down. There will be a thousand books that claim tens of thousands of years of age for Ayurveda. There is so far NO scholarly consensus for any Indian texts dating to 6000BCE. Except for passing references in books on alternative medicine, no historical evidence exists for Ayurveda being 8000years old. Not every form of traditional Medicine is Ayurveda. Ayurveda has some fundamental features that defines it as Ayurveda. Ayurveda is a post-Vedic and it follows many facets derived from Vedas— which itself are not older than 4000 years old. Some unknown person drilling teeth using flint-stone cant be called Ayurveda.

None of the three references given there (which I removed and was later reverted by Abhishek0831996) are books on history of medicine or history of Ayurveda. Two of them are books on pseudoscientific alternative medicine and the third makes only passing references of “8000” year old claim without citing any further sources or evidence whatsoever.

  1. Ayurveda is post-Vedic as suggested by most scholars. Even the Indigenous Aryanists and historical revisionists don’t give dates older than 4000BCE for Vedas. Then how can Ayurveda itself be 6000BCE
  2. Whatever medicine practiced in Indus Valley, that cant be called Ayurveda as the Indus script is still undeciphered. ChandlerMinh (talk) 15:29, 14 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Abhishek0831996 and ChandlerMinh: I agree with this sentiment. Frankly, I think that a book with the title "Complementary and Alternative Medicine for Older Adults: A Guide to Holistic Approaches to Healthy Aging" prima facie disqualifies it from being a reliable or neutral source for claims of historical age. BirdValiant (talk) 16:55, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@BirdValiant: I think you are misunderstanding my edit as per your edit summary. I didn't restore the "6000 BCE" dating, but only removed outdated tags from 2018 (since all sources are third party) and only mentioned that some concepts of Ayurveda are traced back to 4th millennium BCE Indus Valley Civilization which is supported by the sources including the ones not mentioned here.[14][15] The already mentioned (and removed by you) were Springer and Oxford, they are reliable sources. Editorkamran (talk) 17:32, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Editorkamran: To provide citation for the claim that "Some of the concepts of Ayurveda have existed since the times of 4th millenium BCE" (note: specifically Ayurveda) the supplied quote is from the citation you restored is "Ayurveda is attributed to Lord Brahma (considered as creator of the universe in Hindu mythology) and can be traced back about 8000 years." As User:ChandlerMinh pointed out, that's a vague statement with no further evidence provided. How exactly can it be traced back? Just because people have been using bandages since time immemorial, does that mean that modern medicine traces its history back to time immemorial because modern medicine also uses bandages? It's empty.
As for the other books you provided, the first seems to present a point of view in favor of the efficacy of Ayurveda, and the linked page seems to do with cosmetics or something, so I'm going to go ahead and disregard it. As for the second, the quote is "dates to the Bronze Age and the Indus Valley Civilization (3300-1300 BCE)." A narrow reading of that quote is that, as an oral tradition, Ayurveda can be traced back to the Indus Valley Civilization, which extended from 3300-1300 BCE. It does not assert that the oral tradition itself extends back to the beginnings of the IVC listed as 3300 BCE, and so the quote cannot be used to support the claim of "fourth millenium BCE" as was previously asserted in this wiki article. BirdValiant (talk) 18:28, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@BirdValiant: 3300 BCE was 4th millennium. Anyway, since you have already read the source can you paraphrase the sentence now? Editorkamran (talk) 18:33, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Editorkamran: Yes, 3300 BCE is in the 4th millenium BCE. But I just wrote a moment ago, "[that second book source you provided] does not assert that the oral tradition itself extends back to the beginnings of the IVC listed as 3300 BCE". The source does not specify how far back during the duration of the IVC (which it lists from 3300-1300 BCE) that the oral tradition can be traced. For example, if the oral tradition could be traced back as far as 1400 BCE, one could say that the oral tradition was traced back to the IVC (which itself went from 3300-1300 BCE), but the 4th millennium attribution for the oral tradition cannot be supported. BirdValiant (talk) 18:51, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@BirdValiant: No issue I have with ommitting the "4th millennium" but the rest can be be rewritten with the mention of oral tradition. Editorkamran (talk) 18:56, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@BirdValiant: @Editorkamran: the whole point is that not every form of Indian traditional medicine are Ayurveda. Ayurveda has a very specific definitions based on post-vedic texts. Just because some ancient person had treated someone in Indian subcontinent doesn’t mean that they were following Ayurveda. If you had ever read some texts on Ayurveda you can see plenty of superstition directly derived from Vedic texts, especially the Atharvaveda. There are various forms of traditional medicines within India with each different tribe having its own different practices. All of them are not Ayurveda. ChandlerMinh (talk) 04:14, 28 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
You need to read WP:OR i.e. your own views do not qualify. Indian medicals date back even older and nobody other than you is confusing Indian medicine and Ayurveda with each other. You are talking about the establishment in written form and ignoring the origins of that very form. But as apparently agreed by BirdValiant and Editorkamran, this source can be used. Here is an excellent source, work by Jonathan M. Kenoyer who is an archaeologist and historian specializing in Indian history. He dates Ayurveda to '5000 years' and adds on p.118 that "Ayurvedic doctors passed down their traditions orally for thousands of years before anyone wrote them down". This can be used as well. Azuredivay (talk) 06:37, 28 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
How does he know that? If he doesn't have empirical evidence to that extent, it is garbage in, garbage out. tgeorgescu (talk) 08:06, 28 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
In his earlier publication "Ancient Cities of the Indus Valley Civilization" he writes about the discoveries of Indus Valley Civilization that "... Bronze razors, pins and pincers must have been the tools of a barber or a physician, two frequently overlapping professions. Ritual specialists must have worked with healing herbs and incantations..." His conclusions on a later publication are obviously based on research he did for years. Another qualified archaeologist and historian is Gregory Possehl who is also of the same view about the origins of Ayurveda dating back to this period. Possehl writes: "In Ayurvedic medicine powered cuttle is used in the treatment of various conditions of the eye, ear, throat and skin. Its use as tooth powder is also recorded. Cuttle fish bones are a useful commodity and it is intriguing to realize that this was known to the Early Harappan peoples of the Sindh Kohistan."[16] Azuredivay (talk) 11:19, 28 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Azuredivay: I didn't make any comment about the Himalaya encyclopedia being used; my remark was that in a narrow reading, the source says that, as an oral tradition, Ayurveda dates back to the time of the Indus Valley Civilization, which itself existed between 3300-1300 BCE. That would put the age of the oral tradition of Ayurveda anywhere between 3300 and 5300 years old, with the source making no claim as to where in the range it actually lies. When it comes to that source, maybe it dates to the 2nd millenium BCE, maybe to the 4th. Who knows? 🤷 I'm not even suggesting that we should use the source when it comes to the age of Ayurveda, since the source mentions the age only in passing, and gives no citation for it. BirdValiant (talk) 13:32, 28 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@BirdValiant: Sure, we can ignore inclusion of the exact dating but only mention that some concepts of Ayurveda have existing since the times of Indus Civilization as also supported by archeological sources provided by Azure. Are you fine with this compromise? Editorkamran (talk) 14:38, 28 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Editorkamran:@BirdValiant:@Azuredivay:

  1. this source is a book written by two authors not just by Kenoyer. The word Ayurveda is mentioned five time here but only in a single chapter i.e, chapter 17 which has barely anything to do with Archaeology but rather a chapter on Science titled “Nothing but a zero: Science and Technology”. It is still a passing reference in a chapter dealing with science of later times such as Aryabhatiyan maths and all; no reference of IVC there. I doubt whether the chapter has anything to do with Kenoyer since it has zero mentions about archaeology. (Prove otherwise)
  2. In this source about cuttle bones he is not even drawing a parallel or making claims that Ayurveda dates back to IVC. According to Possehl whole cuttle bones were found at Sindh; not powdered cuttlebones as used in Ayurveda. Why shouldn’t cuttle bones be found at a place in Sindh which is near the sea. Harappans were definitely not vegetarians. They obviously went to sea fishing and caught some cuttlefish for dinner. The book also says that those bones are also used for other purposes such as “as natural sand paper for finishing wood and polishing surfaces”. The book nowhere claims that those bones found at IVC sites were powdered or used by IVC people as a medicine. You just cherry-picked the powdered one for Ayurveda. ChandlerMinh (talk) 14:34, 28 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
You are misrepresenting sources. It is not a passing mention but at least 3 pages have been dedicated to Ayurveda by Kenoyer. "Sindh"? Source say "Kohistan, Sindh" which is not near sea but way too far from that.[17] Kohistan Sindh was also a Indus Civilization site and that's why Possehl is even talking about it on the page. Can you cite reliable sources disputing there researches instead of depending on your own personal views? Editorkamran (talk) 15:13, 28 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@ChandlerMinh: You seem to have ignored my comment above about WP:OR and I am going to just say this time that while you are allowed to question sources based on their information if they contradict similarly reliable source or their information is directly disputed, but misrepresenting the high quality sources by throwing your own poor understanding of the subject is not allowed. To claim that Gregory Possehl is not talking about Sindh-Kohistan in context of IVC in the book and chapter that is strongly dedicated to the subject of IVC is frankly WP:DE. I also find issues with your problematic claim that just because the word "Ayurveda" was mentioned 5 times, the source becomes insignificant. You must also read WP:RS and modify your approach here. Azuredivay (talk) 15:26, 28 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Editorkamran: By passing reference, what I meant is that it doesn’t talk about the age of Ayurveda with any clear evidence. And that book is only co-authored by Kenoyer, the other part being by Kimberley Burton Heuston. If that particular chapter was written by Kenoyer, it would be full of archaeological information (Kenoyer being an archaeologist)

Still wrong because Kimberly Heuston has no prior history of writing about Ayurveda, but Kenoyer has who has also researched on medicals in IVC. The publisher is Oxford University Press as such your objections fall flat. Azuredivay (talk) 15:46, 28 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Azuredivay: Oh really? On what basis are you telling it is written by Kenoyer. Where does Kenoyer have a prior history of writing about medical in IVC? You are missing the whole point that the chapter is not even about IVC but later times. The chapter-17 titled Nothing but a zero: Science and Technology doesn’t even mentions the word Indus Valley or Harappa. Instead all it talks about is post vedic scientific advancement Such as Aryabhata, discovery of zero as a place marker in decimal system, and also Ayurveda. “5000 year old Ayurveda” is just a popular tradition in India. @Editorkamran: Now coming to Possehl, according to him

Cuttlebones, internal shells of fish of the family cephalopod were found at the site of Othmanjo-Buthi in Sindh

. Othmanjo-Budhi is in Karachi district in Sindh province, which is nearby Arabian Sea.[1] You are shifting goal posts, even if cuttlebones were found at far away places from ocean, how does that prove cuttlebones were used for Ayurvedic purpose given that they are also used as natural sandpaper, as additive in flour and also as cosmetic? Cuttle fish is an edible marine animal. How hard is it for people to understand that remains of a fish doesn’t necessarily mean they were used for Ayurevedic practice?
Yes he wrote in "Ancient Cities of the Indus Valley Civilization". As for the chapter itself, he indeed talks about Aryabhata but also describes in length that Ayurveda has been around for 5000 years which corresponds to the times of Indus Valley Civilization. Azuredivay (talk) 16:16, 28 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Kenoyer is a distinguished archaeologist and IVC specialist, while Kimberly Heuston is an experienced author of books for children. In this collaboration for a teen market, one can be confident that the factual statements come from Kenoyer, while Heuston got the prose right for the demographic and worked up the modest fictional elements. You probably want to make a very cautious statement like "there is some evidence that certain elements of Ayurveda may date back to the IVC". This will be the later, urban, periods of that, after say 2500 BC. Johnbod (talk) 16:30, 28 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
firstly, your Azuredivay’s argument is solely based on the claim that this particular chapter (#17) is written by Kenoyer himself while there are two different authors for the book. The title of the chapter doesn’t mention anyone’s name per se. The “5000 year old” is just a popular trope among Indians and some foreign admirers of Ayurvedaa.[2] If the chapter was written by Kenoyer, doesn’t commonsense suggest that he will list out archaeological evidence to back his claim. Secondly if he has written about medicine of IVC and also points out that it was indeed Ayurveda, then there is no need for a debate here. Just cite what he has wrote in his Ancient Cities of the Indus Valley Civilization. Thirdly, cuttlebone argument barely stands here as Possehl himself lists out multiple use for it other than medicinal. But people want to cherry-pick the Ayurvedic use only- that too when the Ayurveda talks about powdered cuttle and not whole cuttle remains which were found at IVC sites.— Preceding unsigned comment added by ChandlerMinh (talk • contribs)
Again, your personal view does not matter. You firstly misrepresented the location of Kohistan Sindh, and claimed it is near sea when it is far from it. I still don't see if you cite reliable sources disputing there researches. If you consider well known date to be a "trope" then that is your own personal observation. Editorkamran (talk) 17:31, 28 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Editorkamran: I find the "haha you messed up! you said near the sea!" thing to be incredibly petty, and you can do better than that. Besides, it misses the point, which is that one would need to specifically show that the cuttlefish bones were used for a medicinal purpose which is in essence Ayurvedic. BirdValiant (talk) 18:10, 28 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Dear Editorkamran Sir, I didn’t even talk about Kohistan Sindh. The Possehl source at page 227says this: “Cuttlebones, internal shells of fish of the family cephalopod were found at the site of Othmanjo-Buthi in Sindh”. Othmanjo-Buthi is in Karachi district in Sindh province, which is nearby Arabian Sea. I am gonna repeat my point as long as you chose to deliberately ignore it. There is no well known date for Ayurveda. All samhitas were composed only in the last 3000 years- or even much lesser . 5000 year old is a trope. There are people who with a bigger voice than me claiming Ayurveda is 10000 years old? Should Wikipedia take them seriously too? Since you are not able prove what those cuttlebones were actually used for so you shifted the goalpost towards trying to prove my ignorance about location. Also: Neither Possehl nor Kenoyer makes any inference that Ayurveda was practiced in IVC. What exactly are you trying to prove by saying it is my personal opinion?

My conclusion:

  1. Ayurveda is clearly post vedic. The relations between Vedic and Harappan civilization is still under debate and the script is still undeciphered.
  2. There might be some influence of Harappan civilisation on Ayurveda(as it does with Hinduism) But there is no definitive evidence whatsoever to call both with the same name
  3. Use of cuttlebones is not necessarily medicinal. Even it were medicinal, it doesn’t mean that the medicine practiced in Harappan culture is Ayurveda itself.
  4. Therefore I would suggest to use the term ‘traditional medicine’ for whatever medicine practiced at IVC. And that the present statement “Some of the concepts of traditional Indian medicine have existed since the times of the Indus Valley Civilization” be maintained. ChandlerMinh (talk) 17:20, 28 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
There is nothing new with what you are saying. I would suggest you to stop repeating yourself since your personal views don't even matter. Editorkamran (talk) 17:31, 28 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with @ChandlerMinh:'s assessment here. I would like to see some reliable secondary source say and provide evidence for, in a way which addresses the matter specifically and not in passing, the idea that a medicine which is essentially Ayurvedic was practiced in the IVC. This would allow us to say something beyond "there is some evidence that certain elements of Ayurveda may date back to the IVC" which is @Johnbod:'s cogent suggestion, by the way, a suggestion which was totally ignored. Beyond that, since we don't yet have a reliable source to claim that an essentially Ayurvedic traditional medicine was being practiced in the IVC, we should probably err on the side of caution and use something like the phrase "traditional medicine" for that stage of antiquity.
As for saying anything like "fourth millennium", 5000 years old, 4000 BC, etc., I would additionally like to see some reliably secondary source specifically discuss the exact date, and not just make some vague in-passing remark, which seems to be the rule here. BirdValiant (talk) 18:20, 28 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I am actually in support of implementing the sentence provided by Johnbod. I also agree with your suggestion about sources for dating. Editorkamran (talk) 18:29, 28 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Nonsense

It is ahistorical to claim that Ayurveda can be traced to IVC in any form or manner - no historian of Indian Medicine makes these claims. The above discussion makes it obvious that the sentence has no consensus, in favor. See David Hardiman (2009) on such claims. TrangaBellam (talk) 20:19, 28 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

What's with the section header? People claiming that the origins of Ayurveda lay in Mehrgarh I/II? TrangaBellam (talk) 20:21, 28 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
We are not having any dearth of peer-reviewed scholarship to bend over backwards and use middle-school texts. (cc:ChandlerMinh) TrangaBellam (talk) 20:33, 28 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ref

  1. ^ https://www.tamildigitallibrary.in/admin/assets/book/TVA_BOK_0013218_Memoirs_Of_The_Archaeological_Survey_Of_Indian.pdf page13 Memoirs of Archaeological Survey of India: Explorations in Sind also at page 230 image of whole cuttlebone can be seen as said by Possehl.
  2. ^ For some Indians everything is 5000 years old—even quantum mechanics is written 5000 year ago in Vedas

Add to see also section

can we add a portal or section on a list of herbs/plants of Ayurveda medicine? Things such as [Bacopa monnieri]], Centella asiatica, Tulsi

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