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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 188.146.142.127 (talk) at 20:01, 11 May 2022 (→Popasnaya). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Adding control dates

To combine historical and geographical information (more fitting the wiki), could we add dates in which a city was under different control or was disputed? For example as today (2022-04-18) the "Chernihiv Oblast" list is listing only Ukraine, a reader in some years may not even notice that there was disputed control there.

Instead adding info like "until day X it was under Ukraine control, from day X+1 to Y it was disputed, then from day Y+1 it returned to Ukrainian control" could make the article more informative - although I know it would somewhat clutter the tables. --Pier4r (talk) 17:29, 18 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Just need columns for date occupied and date liberated. Multiple occurrences can have multiple dates. If it gets more complicated, can be updated later. —Michael Z. 22:23, 18 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
To access historical information about a town, you could use the template map. Implementing what is described in Module:Russo-Ukrainian War detailed map/doc#"link=" parameter: linking towns to sources would do what you suggest. For example, the dot of the town Al-Taybah has a link function in the code: link = "Al-Taybah#civilwar". So when you click on the dot in the template, it will take you to the section on civilwar in the article of Al-Taybah town. In this section, there will be all the history of the war including "dates in which a city was under different control or was disputed". Tradediatalk 23:23, 21 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 20 April 2022

Change Kreminna from contested to controlled by russia Max8352810 (talk) 10:49, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

No. Arestovych said there is fighting in city. https://nv.ua/ukr/ukraine/events/viyna-rosiji-proti-ukrajini-arestovich-pro-bitvu-na-donbasi-novini-ukrajini-50234961.html Also, instead they should change Rubizhne to contested, because there are no reports of russians taking over the town. https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-ato/3461606-positional-battles-ongoing-in-rubizhne-and-popasna-enemy-suffering-losses.html 188.146.102.132 (talk) 16:31, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

First, AFAIK you can't use Ukrainian sources for Ukrainian advances, as you can't use Russian sources for Russian advances. Second, Kreminna is by various sources (including video confirmation) unders Russian control:

"07.30 Kreminna, Luganska oblast. Ruske snage i snage LPR-a postavile su zastave na zgradu gradske uprave." https://www.slobodna-bosna.ba/vijest/246383/rat_uzivo_ukrajina_ce_na_razgovore_s_rusijom_o_mariupolju_doci_bez_ikakvih_uvjeta_kako_bi_spasila_svoje_ljude.html

"Russian forces have seized the town of Kreminna in eastern Ukraine and Ukrainian troops have withdrawn from it, according to the regional governor." https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/4/19/russian-forces-seize-eastern-ukraines-kreminna-governor-says

So, confirmed by both Ukrainian and pro-Russian sources. Finally, Rubizhne is properly sourced as under Russian/LPR control in Control of cities during the Russo-Ukrainian War.--HCPUNXKID 21:56, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. Terasail[✉️] 14:03, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Azovstal

Azovstal should be marked with a separate icon as industrial complex which is blue, and Mariupol seems to be red 82.162.96.34 (talk) 13:11, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Tradediatalk 06:40, 30 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

What's the source for Rubizhne's status (fully under Russian control)?

The detailed map claims that Rubizhne is fully under Russian control... I wonder which source claims that? Considering that no other map has made such claims, and while Russians have conducted attacks at Rubizhne and Popasna, they were largely unsuccessful, as they only managed to capture a few apartment blocks in Popasna (https://t.me/operativnoZSU/20168), no information in regards to Rubizhne. Seems to me that someone might have confused Kreminna with Rubizhne. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.140.150.140 (talk) 22:51, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, i also found no sources saying that Rubizhne is captured by Russians. https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-ato/3461606-positional-battles-ongoing-in-rubizhne-and-popasna-enemy-suffering-losses.html 46.205.145.74 (talk) 07:07, 21 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Small towns

It looks like there are suddenly a lot of very small towns on this listing. I thought this page was limited to larger or otherwise notable cities. There are tens of thousands of villages in Ukraine, and it frankly does not make sense to list them all here. Should we set a population or notability threshold for inclusion? WMSR (talk) 17:53, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@WMSR No, if the article would be too long, it could be split into oblasts. One of the purposes of this article is to serve for maps: Template:Russo-Ukrainian War detailed map and File:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine.svg. The more accurate (better to each village, if there are sources), the better. Epq0 (talk) 18:08, 22 April 2022 (UTC) sock[reply]
Talk about content, not editors. One might also want to have a read at WP:OWB #31.
It is very simple. This whole page is nothing but a propaganda since 90% of editors are pro Ukraine/western with also some western intelligence elements being present. The purpose of virtually littering of the map with small villages is to give an impression that Ukraine is holding more territory than it does, is constantly winning some back and is all used with the purpose of information war. Notice how all these small villages are exclusively blue. 31.10.157.108 (talk) 22:13, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Out of settlements with a population below 1000, eight (Lozove, Terny, Brazhkivka, Shestakove, Hornostaivka, Khreshchenivka, Nevske and Bile) are Russian-controlled, while Zelena Dolyna and Dovhenke, being contested, show how far Russia has advanced in their direction.
Bazaliivka, Dobryanka, Novovosnesenske, Trudolyubivka are the only (four) Ukrainian-controlled settlements of that size listed (excepting one inside the uncontested Kyiv Oblast). That's a ratio of 2:1 in favour of Russia, so there's certainly no evidence of anti-Russian bias re small villages. So, are contributors biased in favour of Russia, given the numbers? No, it's that small settlements only become newsworthy when they change hands, so it's easier to find reports of Russian-occupied small settlements than Ukrainian-controlled ones. —AlphaMikeOmega (talk) 12:39, 24 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Trudolyubivka with population of 86 (where is even the source for this population???) and Dobryanka with population of 149 both in hands of Ukraine are clearly there just from propaganda reasons. There are hundreds of villages with size less than 200 on the front line. So this excuse is lame.
Further more, there are 3 villages in Mykolaiv Oblast held by Ukraine with population from 1100-1400 where population sources are either missing or over 20 years old. 31.10.157.108 (talk) 22:21, 24 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It sounds like we have identified two tasks you can do, then:
  1. Add some of these "hundreds of villages... on the front line" to the tables (or post them to this talk page with a reliable source so that someone else knows to add them);
  2. Update and verify population figures.
Thanks for your help. —AlphaMikeOmega (talk) 09:52, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Personally, because I have been using this page to inform Template:Russo-Ukrainian War detailed map, which in turn informs File:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine.svg, I find the inclusion of arbitrarily small settlements which help to define the front lines useful.
  • I support a population/notability threshold for settlements which do not help to define the front lines: as you say, it does not make sense to list every settlement.
  • I also weakly support not giving rows to arbitrarily small settlements which do help to define the front lines: such settlements can instead be placed in the "More information" column of the nearest listed settlement in the same raion, as was done with Zelena Donyna (near Lyman, Ukraine), using {{as of}} and perhaps listing their population in a comment.
There is a question of where to draw the line, e.g. whether to only consider population, and if not, whether to consider whether a settlement is a city/SMT/village, and how to gauge notability. At least for now, I would remove villages of below 1000 population in the first case, and avoid giving rows to villages of below 100 population in the second case (instead doing the same as with Zelena Dolyna). —AlphaMikeOmega (talk) 13:02, 24 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@HCPUNXKID @Firestar464 @WeifengYang @Nurg @PutItOnAMap Thoughts? —AlphaMikeOmega (talk) 11:26, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Generally, more information is better - the problem is when settlements become too small to be shown at scale, and even then, that is a small problem. If we are to implement a threshold, I’d like it to be ~500 people with a lower limit for settlements that currently or previously defined the front lines. Settlements of that size do have articles on Wikipedia - and with a few exceptions, all of these should be mappable. With respect to smaller settlements that previously defined the front lines but currently do not, those are useful in illustrating the course of the war and indicating where the fighting was heavier. I support keeping these, too; the settlements that should be removed (if any) are the small villages that have always been well behind front lines. - PutItOnAMap (talk) 13:26, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
What about larger cities that don't define the front lines but aren't presently listed? There are more than five cities in Crimea, for example. WMSR (talk) 19:10, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding small settlements which used to be, but no longer are, near the front lines, I would still support their removal (or at least their being commented out) for two reasons in particular:
  1. Smaller settlements will not always have changes in their control reported. If larger settlements surrounding a small settlement are known to have changed hands, then it probably makes sense to remove the small settlement (at least from the detailed map), which would essentially amount to assuming that the small settlement may have changed hands as well (while not explicitly stating that it has or has not);
  2. The old data will still be available in the article's history.
While there may be value in showing where fighting has been heaviest, a high density of small settlements on a map is not an intuitive indicator of this, nor a perfect analogue. For instance, were a large number of small settlements conquered slowly but against little resistance, and were these settlements reported on individually and added to the tables and map, there would be a high density of small settlements on the map despite relatively little fighting.
The priorities for this page might change if the page's scope expands to include the full history of control of each settlement (instead of only their most recently reported status), but that kind of detail is probably best reserved for the settlements' individual pages. —AlphaMikeOmega (talk) 23:54, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Also @Volunteer Marek, thoughts? —AlphaMikeOmega (talk) 00:23, 28 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Also @Viewsridge @ZomBear @Magog the Ogre @Iconicos @Artemis Dread @Gaelige181 @Tartan357 since all of you have contributed to File:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine.svg, have you any views on whether we should restrict the inclusion of small settlements on Control of cities during the Russo-Ukrainian War and Template:Russo-Ukrainian War detailed map? —AlphaMikeOmega (talk) 00:32, 5 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I think the number of towns needs to be greatly reduced. See the previous discussion at Talk:Control of cities during the Russo-Ukrainian War/Archive 1#Cleaning up the labels on the map. ― Tartan357 Talk 00:34, 5 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Also @Cyrobyte @Abbasi786786 @MarioJump83 thoughts? —AlphaMikeOmega (talk) 01:04, 7 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I think the map should have small settlements but not everywhere else like this article. Thus it is definitely not the map. MarioJump83! 02:30, 7 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Are we talking about the article, the map or both? (This is the Talk page for both.) If both, are we assuming that we should have the same criteria for both? Nurg (talk) 22:50, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Definitely not the map. Some minor villages can drastically change the appearance of the map. As for the article, that's more open to discussion. Firestar464 (talk) 03:18, 26 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Any settlements on the map should have their control be easily verifiable, which in practice means being on this article. (There were, last I checked, settlements in the Donbas not included in this article but included on the map which were already occupied prior to the invasion, in which case their state should at least be verifiable in their respective articles.) It would be compatible with verifiability to have some settlements on this page but not on the map; however, I do not see anybody advocating that. TL;DR: both. —AlphaMikeOmega (talk) 10:08, 28 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I could agree on a population limit in order to add towns to the map, but there are several problems: First, which pop. limit? 100? 500? 1,000?. Second, many times the media reports about small towns, while at the same time dont say a thing about bigger cities which are nearby. Third and finally, but not less important, I totally disagree on putting a pop. limit on adding towns when that towns are on the frontline. As other users stated, adding that towns, no matter what population they have, is the best way to really know where is the frontline.--HCPUNXKID 19:39, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It should be 1000 minimum, unless there’s something particularly important or notable about a locality (like Snake Island). Keeping track of a (very fluid) frontline is not the purpose of an encyclopedia article. This is confounded by the fact that a lot of these places are changing hands back and forth so it’s kind of a fool’s errand. Volunteer Marek 03:03, 29 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I can see an argument for removing the labels of all but the largest cities, but removing the villages's marks sounds like a bad idea to me, especially as that defines the frontline. -- Abbasi786786 (talk) 19:12, 7 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 April 2022

Change Sievierodonetsk and Lysychansk to contested Errora 404 (talk) 07:30, 23 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:01, 23 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Mariupol is not controlled by russian at all

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Mariupol

As I know UKR troops still controlled the Azovstal plant zone — Preceding unsigned comment added by 186.93.65.251 (talk) 15:18, 24 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

No Azov battalion is only controlling catacombs below the surface. They now almost never go out due to constant heavy bombardment. So Azovstal is contested while city of Mariupol is 100% in Russian/DNR control. Area of the city of Mariupol is 166km2, Azovstal is 11km2. 31.10.157.108 (talk) 22:28, 24 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Doing the math, that is not 100%. (I’m not saying this is or is not how to determine if the city is controlled, only that anon’s argument contradicts itself.) —Michael Z. 03:31, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The plant itself is marked separately as surrounded object on the map.
Some ppl are desperately trying to push propaganda about Mariupol still being contested and resisting. Some soldiers hiding in undergrounds tunnels of completely isolated factory doesn't account for a contested city. Ppl should simply move on. Mariupol is lost. Period. 31.10.157.108 (talk) 07:36, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The city is still technically contested, as long as Ukrainian forces hold part of the city (that is, Azovstal). Also, as I have told you on your talk, calling everything you don't like "propaganda" is unhelpful. Give the fact that your only contributions are to push this on this talk page, your behavior looks like WP:NOTHERE. Firestar464 (talk) 03:23, 26 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Berdyansk: sea port

As it has long been known, there are several military bases in Berdyansk, among which there is a military airfield (former airport) and an Azov military base, as well as the Berdyansk seaport, in which a small military base was recently created, several good military boats moored there even before aggravation of the conflict and a large-scale offensive. Just recently an article about the port of Berdyansk was created and I propose to add the icon of the Berdyansk port to our map of military operations, since this is a major port of the Sea of Azov, along with Mariupol. Iftor (talk) 19:06, 24 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Done. —AlphaMikeOmega (talk) 19:45, 24 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There are some quotes missing to the port of Berdiansk in the formatted text.
Thanks!
VictorAlexandre2022 (talk) 14:39, 25 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Zolote, Luhansk Oblast

Zolote, Popasna Raion, Luhansk Oblast is in red on the map. This seems wrong. Anyone know better? Nurg (talk) 02:03, 26 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have commented it out in the map pending verification. Ru may occupy part but as far as I can make out Ukr controls most of it. Nurg (talk) 02:22, 27 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Flag icons

With the addition of the history info, it is becoming a rather flag-heavy page. On checking the Manual of Style, I don't think it complies with MOS:ICONDECORATION. In every instance, the flags are accompanying the state's name, so they are purely decorative. I suggest they all be removed. Nurg (talk) 23:13, 26 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Shyroke misplaced

Shyroke position corrected on the map, as the source given states: "Ukrainian forces reportedly recapturing Shyroke, Novopetrivka, and Lyubino, 50 km north of Kherson.--HCPUNXKID 14:17, 28 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

“More information” column

I see someone added, unilaterally and without discussion a “more information” column. Problem is almost all info inserted into that column is frankly nonsense (a lot of it appears to be reporting twitter/telegram rumors without admitting that that’s what it’s doing). This stuff needs to be removed unless it’s well sourced. Volunteer Marek 03:05, 29 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think the column is generally useful, telling us which cities have switched control multiple times, but it does need to be sourced. BilledMammal (talk) 03:11, 29 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed – unsourced information in this column should be removed. Generally, unsourced information should be removed unless it is uncontroversial (e.g. that settlements outside Crimea & the Donbas were held by Ukraine at the start) or (perhaps) otherwise easy to verify (e.g. by viewing the "Battle of [Location]" article, which should be linked).
I would also tend to oppose the inclusion of the full control history of settlements on this article. While it may be useful to show the date on which a settlement last changed hands (where this can be verified), it may be prudent to avoid clutter by keeping the full history contained to the "Battle/History of [Location]" and/or "[Location]" article(s). At very least, I would support containing the history of control within a collapsible box within the table, perhaps like this:
Name Pop. Raion Held by As of History More information
Avdiivka 31,940 Yasynuvata Contested:[1] 24 March 2022 See Battle of Avdiivka (2017), Battle of Avdiivka
—AlphaMikeOmega (talk) 13:42, 29 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
In fact, Avdiivka is a good example of why perhaps not to include the full history in the table: the city's article says it "reportedly" came back under Ukrainian control at a specific date; the entry in the table removes this nuance (presumably for the sake of brevity). I suppose the compromise option of hiding the history within a collapsible box does allow more room for nuance before things become cluttered, but there might still be instances in which a settlement's history is too complicated to summarise in one cell of a table. —AlphaMikeOmega (talk) 14:09, 29 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@WMSR @HCPUNXKID @Firestar464 @WeifengYang @Nurg @PutItOnAMap Thoughts? —AlphaMikeOmega (talk) 13:49, 29 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, apologies for any lack of citations; I am glad to add any citations I can find. Most information came from sources cited in a different column, or listed in the articles of the cities themselves. I have no problem with using a collapsible list or something similar to show history, but I do feel that it should be included one way or another. WMSR (talk) 18:19, 30 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Volunteer Marek, I do object to your characterization of my edits as [unilateral] and without discussion. There is a discussion on this page (§ Adding control dates) proposing the same idea, and WP:BOLD is a Wikipedia guideline. I did not cite Telegram or Twitter rumors at all, rather using sources already cited on this page or on the pages of the individual cities. I do recognize that these notes need proper citations and am glad to add them, and would appreciate any help in doing so. WMSR (talk) 18:30, 30 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ruska Lozova

Can someone please add Ruska Lozova:

On 29 April it is reported that the village Ruska Lozova near by Kharkiv, is retaken by Ukraine. Ukraine Army retakes control of village of Ruska Lozova in Kharkiv region, Ukraine claims it liberated Kharkiv's Ruska Lozova village from Russian troops 82.174.61.58 (talk) 18:43, 29 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

One source is Ukrainian (so its partisan) and the other states that its an Ukrainian claim.--HCPUNXKID 13:07, 30 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
By your way of thinking every single source is partisan or pro-[insert country here]. 46.204.104.56 (talk) 10:43, 1 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 29 April 2022

We should add Transnistria to the map as it appears they may get involved soon https://balkaninsight.com/2022/04/28/moldovas-breakaway-transnistria-orders-general-mobilisation/ Massimo510 (talk) 21:58, 29 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Not until any invasion of Transnistria starts. Wikipedia does not predict the future. Nurg (talk) 01:19, 30 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Only if it was part of Ukraine. Dawsongfg (talk) 05:14, 1 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Two blue spots

What is the unnamed two blue spots near Valnovakha? 31.223.131.109 (talk) 20:04, 30 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Volodymyrivka (now labelled) and the small village of Novodonetske (dot now shrunk to correct size). Nurg (talk) 22:49, 30 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Husarivka, Barvinkove

I notice this village is missing in the list: Husarivka, Barvinkove. Source: here. 82.174.61.58 (talk) 20:26, 1 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Zolote and Hirske

Ukraine is controlling parts of Rubizhne, Sievierodonetsk, Lysychansk, Hirske and Popasna. Zolote and Hirske are contested Source: https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-ato/3473630-serhii-haidai-head-of-luhansk-regional-military-administration.html محمد العجاني (talk) 12:48, 3 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Kherson Oblast

Vysokopillia, Blahodatne and Khreshchenivka are under Russian control. Kherson control map needs modifications. محمد العجاني (talk) 18:21, 4 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

They are red. What needs modifying? Nurg (talk) 02:25, 5 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oleksandrivka in Cherson

Its isnt under russia control, now on Ukrainian. Please review that question FieldNuke (talk) 07:26, 5 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sources?--HCPUNXKID 13:59, 9 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

View evolution in time?

Is there a way to retrieve past states of this map, or to view its evolution as a movie?

Thank you all for this outstanding work -- Quintus V. (talk) 14:18, 5 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You can retrieve past states of this map. What you have to do is as follows:
  1. -Go to history of Module.
  2. -Click on any past edit at which date you want to see the map.
  3. -Click on "Edit"
  4. -Type in the box under "Preview page with this module" the name of the template: "Template::Russo-Ukrainian War detailed map". Then hit "Show preview".
This will give you the map at the date of the edit you chose in the history. Tradediatalk 15:24, 6 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Peremoha and several other settlements in Kharkiv Oblast back under Ukrainian control

Source: https://liveuamap.com/en/2022/6-may-during-counteroffensive-the-defense-forces-of-ukraine — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.140.150.140 (talk) 16:41, 6 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah also seeing reports Lyptsi recaptured but not in non-social media sources. Volunteer Marek 18:26, 6 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This is widely reported [1]. Volunteer Marek 23:08, 6 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yampil

Yampil is under Russian control. Sources: 1- https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/5/5/timeline-week-10-of-russias-war-in-ukraine 2- https://militaryland.net/ukraine/invasion-day-69-summary/ 3- https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/russian-invasion-of-ukraine-day-69-summary-open-source-site.html محمد العجاني (talk) 12:36, 7 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Popasnaya

Ukrainian army have withdraw from popasnaya and is under russian control. 83.61.216.159 (talk) 09:32, 8 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Please provide sources. 46.204.100.22 (talk) 12:01, 8 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The UA have retreat from the city. https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/chechnyas-kadyrov-says-his-soldiers-control-popasna-ukraine-disagrees-2022-05-08/ DrYisus (talk) 13:03, 8 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Withdraw. 188.146.142.127 (talk) 20:01, 11 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Cherkasy Tyshky in Kharkiv Oblast no longer contested

Fully liberated by Ukraine, together with Rusky Tyshky, Bayrak, and Rubizhne (village in Kharkiv Oblast) Source: https://liveuamap.com/en/2022/10-may-as-a-result-of-coordinated-actions-of-the-personnel — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.140.150.140 (talk) 15:39, 10 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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