Talk:2022 Gaza–Israel clashes

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Requested move 5 August 2022

It has been proposed in this section that 2022 Gaza–Israel clashes be renamed and moved to 2022 Israel–Palestine escalation.

A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil.

Please use {{subst:requested move}}. Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly.

Links: current log • target log • direct move

Operation Breaking Dawn → 2022 Israel–Palestine escalation – It is not NPOV to use names assigned by only one party to the conflict, better to follow the form established as in 2021 Israel–Palestine crisis. Very recent and unclear how far escalation will go but the name must go meanwhile. Selfstudier (talk) 19:25, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I wonder if, as it stands, it is an even more reductive 2022 Israel–PIJ escalation - so far it appears to be almost entirely a series of attacks on PIJ personnel. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:29, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

COMMENT While using the Israeli's name for the current conflict is not the best option here, escalation carries its own NPOV issues, and appears to be used by a Hamas spokesman at one point, further raising NPOV concerns.

Nameomcnameface (talk) 23:56, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

*Oppose, it is the official name of the operation. It is not POV, the Arabic Wikipedia uses it too. ---Lilach5 (לילך5) discuss 19:40, 5 August 2022 (UTC)Non ecp editor not allowed to comment in move discussions per WP:PIA "This exception does not apply to other internal project discussions such as AfDs, WikiProjects, RfCs, noticeboard discussions, etc." + "In a July 2020 ARCA and in a July 2021 motion, the Arbitration Committee clarified that requested moves are "internal project discussions" for the purposes of this remedy."[reply]

Support, less a matter of POV and more a matter of precedent. Change shouldn't happen for a few hours until the scope becomes clearer, since it might be better to use an Israel-PIJ title as Iskandar mentioned Totalstgamer (talk) 19:55, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support, war crimes are being committed and this is far from being a regular operation. The title is misleading.--Sakiv (talk) 20:14, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sakiv see my comment below. RS is referring to this as "Operation Breaking Dawn", which is the official name of this military operation. Whether or not war crimes are being committed is irrelevant. Elijahandskip (talk) 20:58, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Elijahandskip: So you are literally adopting the Israeli narrative. Everyone knows who the Jerusalem Post belongs to.--Sakiv (talk) 21:16, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

TJP is a reliable source for information. Also, just based on your comment of accusing me of "adopting the Israeli narrative", I am questioning any possible ~~COI~~ NPOV here as that appears to be coming from a biased standpoint that Israeli sources are not reliable for information about their military. If that is the case, I highly recommend you either (1), take it up at WP:RS or (2) excuse yourself from this requested move for a possible ~~COI~~ NPOV. Elijahandskip (talk) 21:32, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You only brought the Jerusalem Post as an example. It is not enough to be a reliable source. It must also be impartial. I also suspect that your vote is a conflict of interest.--Sakiv (talk) 21:38, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

WRAL-TV & Las Vegas Sun (2 American news organizations) also have articles referring to Operation "Breaking Dawn". Please excuse yourself from this requested move as I do highly suggest ~~COI~~ NPOV now with 2 impartial accusations against myself. Elijahandskip (talk) 21:43, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Elijahandskip: Another response and I will report to you for harassment and impartiality. Two sources from two unknown sites will do the trick for you. Stop singling me out!--Sakiv (talk) 21:52, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, well I apologize for singling you out and for asking you to excuse yourself. In response to your statement of "Two sources from two unknown sites", the two sites I linked articles actually have articles: WRAL-TV & Las Vegas Sun, so they are not "unknown" sites. Elijahandskip (talk) 22:20, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It's okay. I understand that what's happening now may cause some tension.--Sakiv (talk) 22:26, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Do note, I did switch my !vote to support, but not for the same reason as you. I do still believe the reason for your !vote is wrong, but we still have overall viewpoint. Elijahandskip (talk) 22:31, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You do not understand the rationale for my vote. The operation does not target only Palestinian militants, most of the victims are unarmed civilians. As you know, Gaza has been under siege for 15 years, and there is no equivalence between the two sides. It's not about you and me. I don't want to go too far, why any incident in Ukraine is immediately stigmatized as a war crime without even an official investigation or evidence. Killing civilians is a war crime, whoever committed it.--Sakiv (talk) 22:38, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

How the hell is @Sakiv committing WP:COI violations? Like I don't think that user is involved with what's happening in Palestine. CR-1-AB (talk) 22:03, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. I used the wrong term. I meant WP:NPOV not COI. Either way, I am not singling them out anymore and focusing on the content rather than the editor. Elijahandskip (talk) 22:22, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comment First of all, the proposed name is illiterate. "2022 Israel–Palestine conflict escalation", perhaps? Secondly, it's vague and not descriptive, anyway. "Conflict escalation is the process by which conflicts grow in severity or scale over time". Countless number of events this year were an escalation of this conflict. --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 20:15, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

*Strong Oppose - The Jerusalem Post said "Israel takes initiative and launches widescale attack on northern Gaza in Operation Breaking Dawn." as the first sentence of their article on the operation. The true name of this is Operation Breaking Dawn. Exact same reason we don't call Operation Overlord the "Battle of Normandy". Once it is named, that is the name, so there should be no reasons to change the title. Elijahandskip (talk) 20:57, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Chaning to Support per Nableezy's comment below about MILMOS. Elijahandskip (talk) 22:28, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
So you think the targeted assassination of 10 or so PIJ fighters and the Battle of Normandy are comparable events? Give me a break, and see below. Iskandar323 (talk) 21:19, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Would like to point out that since RS use it as the name of the operation, whether or not the title is changed, "Operation Breaking Dawn" will still be bolded in the lead because per WP:OR, we must use what RS say. In this case, RS call it an operation and not killing, so unless we want to break/make an exception through that rule, it must be present. Also, based on the link you showed below, IF we did ignore RS on the title, then I would still oppose this title suggested because this would be a killing and not a military operation (despite what RS say). Basically, my !vote will remain oppose to 2022 Israel–Palestine escalation. Elijahandskip (talk) 21:27, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It's very simple, we don't use names given by one side, end of. Selfstudier (talk) 22:06, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Wait - Let's wait until the attack and the following tensions calm down, and if that doesn't happen soon, then we can rename it. CR-1-AB (talk) 22:09, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I certainly agree that putting up an article for WP:RECENT events some hours old is a bit previous, regardless, the title is non NPOV now and that won't change no matter long we wait. Selfstudier (talk) 22:19, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support some change - very clear NPOV violation in this naming, and the reasons for that are laid out at MILMOS. Using one of the combatants favored framing is a clear NPOV violation. nableezy - 22:21, 5 August 2022 (UTC) Addendum, Im fine with Gaza-Israel clashes (August 2022) as offered below. nableezy - 23:21, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment if anything it should be changed to 2022 Israel-Gaza escalation Midrashah (talk) 22:48, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Most RS are framing this as an escalation following the arrest earlier in the week of Bassam al-Saadi, a senior Palestinian Islamic Jihad leader in West Bank on 1 August. Selfstudier (talk) 22:52, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

eg NYT "The escalation followed one of the least violent phases in Gaza for several years. Both Israel and Hamas, the militant group that runs Gaza, had previously signaled they wanted to avoid another full-scale war over the enclave, which has been under an Israeli and Egyptian blockade since 2007. Since May 2021, there have been relatively few cross-border exchanges of fire, as tensions shifted to the occupied West Bank and Israel itself. But over the past week, the possibility of a new conflict in Gaza re-emerged — this time not with Hamas, but with Islamic Jihad. Israel arrested one of Islamic Jihad’s senior commanders in the West Bank this week, leading to threats of reprisal from its Gaza leadership."

AJ "Israel’s deadly attacks came after Israeli forces arrested Bassam al-Saadi, a senior member of the armed group, earlier in the week. Al-Saadi was detained during an Israeli raid in the West Bank city of Jenin, during which a teenager was killed." Selfstudier (talk) 22:55, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support; for two reasons: 1. The present name is a POV violation, 2. the suggested name is far more informative (can anyone here remember the names of all the Israeli military operations? I certainly cannot), Huldra (talk) 23:01, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - I’d suggest a move to 2022 Gaza-Israel clashes (or Gaza-Israel clashes (August 2022)) in line with prior practice, see for example Gaza–Israel clashes (November 2018), Gaza–Israel clashes (May 2019) and Gaza–Israel clashes (November 2019). PrimaPrime (talk) 23:13, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

POV

A less POV description of these very recent events is available at Timeline of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict in 2022. The editing, together with the non NPOV name, are unacceptable. Selfstudier (talk) 19:30, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

What's the POV problem? The Islamic Jihad Movement in Palestine is a designated terrorist organization all over the free world. ---Lilach5 (לילך5) discuss 19:41, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Grandiose names for military operations such as killings/assassinations, until such a time as they pass into the history books, are just euphemistic titles. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:48, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The killing of Osama bin Laden is just the Killing of Osama bin Laden, that just so happens to be code-named "Operation Neptune Spear" by the US. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:51, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

We had the same argument in 2021 with pro Israeli editors trying to name 2021 Israel-Palestine crisis as Operation Guardian of the Walls, the IDF name for their operation and now a redirect.Selfstudier (talk) 19:55, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like to point out that Selfstudier is removing link to this article from Timeline of the Israeli–Palestinian conflict in 2022, see talk page there. --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 20:02, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps because it's an unbalanced stub ... if you want to redress this, and have time on your hands, please feel free to expand it from the Arabic version. Iskandar323 (talk) 20:10, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

In order to expand this article and make it balanced, editors need to know that it exists. How does removing links to it helps in changing it from being an unbalanced stub? --Triggerhippie4 (talk) 20:29, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A. There is a clear NPOV dispute here, removing the tag requires consensus when that is under discussion. B. framing the events as a military operation and not an extrajudicial killing is non-neutral. You cant simply take one sides framing and adopt it as Wikipedia's. nableezy - 22:27, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think the content is reasonable at this point though. The title not as much. nableezy - 23:05, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

combatants

placing the PIJ as the combatant here is a POV violation, it is portraying Israel's framing as an attack on PIJ as fact. Sources are reporting Israel attacked the Gaza Strip, so either State of Palestine or Gaza Strip should be placed as the combatant. Ditto for commander, hard to say somebody assassinated in his sleep was "in action", and he wasnt a commander for Gaza in any way. nableezy - 22:42, 5 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]