Talk:Night attack at Târgoviște

Babinger does not say Ottoman losses were minimal

Someone, using Babinger as a source for their own claims, wrote that "some sources say the Wallachians slaughtered a great number of Turks, while others say Ottoman losses were minimal." Neither Babinger nor McNally/Florescu say any such thing. Babinger says, "The entire skirmish, in which many camels, mules, and horses were killed, had no significant results." He means it was not a strategically decisive battle in one way or another, and that statement has little to do with the losses. McNally and Florescu find that a janissary who actually witnessed the skirmish says losses were heavy on both sides. Several sources claim Ottoman losses were heavier, although that certainly isn't the case proportionally speaking and probably refers also to Ottoman wounded (who surely contributed to the process of spreading the bubonic plague). But what Babinger was referring to was that it is not certain that this battle was the main factor in Mehmed's retreat from Tirgoviste, despite his original plan to attack the capital. Babinger, who was writing in the 1950s before Romanian history was even a seriously considered subject by Western historians (he was an early exception, to be sure), notes that Mehmed's planned attack on Tirgoviste and direct conquest of Wallachia failed and forced him to rely on his backup plan of installing Radu, but without coming up with a sure answer as to the decisive factor, maintains that no particular battle was the decisive reason why. As McNally and Florescu were writing decades later and about Vlad as their main subject, their more detailed and more thoroughly researched (about this particular subject anyway) account finds that it was Vlad's germ warfare mixed with the psychological effect of his tactics that compelled Mehmed to retreat.

The reasons for the Dracula victory have been demonstrated by McNally and Florescu, but the reasons why it was a phyrric victory have not been sufficiently explored. Babinger brings up an important point when he notes that after the sultan's retreat Dracula withdraw part of his army to Moldavia and this imperiled his domestic defenses, but does not seem to realize this is because Stephen III attacked Hungarian-Wallachian-held Chilia after the sultan retreated. He mentions this skirmish as if it happened beforehand, and doesn't pay it much mind. McNally and Florescu find that this happened on June 22 (two days after the sultan decided to retreat). The combined force of several thousand (one source mentions 7000) of Dracula's men and the Hungarian garrison there compelled Stephen and the Ottoman Navy to lift the siege by June 28, or at least that is when it was reported. During this time, Dracula had to resist Mehmed with his dwindling forces as Mehmed's army was heading east to Braila. Mehmed writes of one Turahanoglu Omer Bey crushing Dracula's domestic forces at this point, but this must have been before a Dracula victory at the town of Buzau over one Evrenos Pasha, which McNally and Florescu say was the last military encounter between the two armies. The Ottoman victory therefore took place between Tirgoviste and Buzau sometime in between June 22 and June 26, and the Buzau battle was a failed siege after that.

I personally think the number of 200,000 captured Wallachian cattle and horses is two high, but it must be noted that Turkish sources seem to have exaggerated the number of Ottoman troops even more than Byzantine sources. One Turkish historian mentions 300,000 troops. Since 90,000-100,000 is a more realistic estimate, the number of cattle and horses taken (almost certainly during the above-mentioned time between the Ottoman retreat from Tirgoviste and the unsuccessful siege of Buzau) is probably closer to around 40,000-60,000. In any event, Babinger notes that the number is "said to have" been 200,000 cattle and horses, not that it was.

What neither Babinger, nor McNally/Florescu discuss, but what is important to understanding the Vlad-Mehmed battle's place in history, is that Stephen's attack on Chilia ensured that Vlad's victory over Mehmed would be a phyrric one by forcing Vlad to divert his resources to Moldavia, but the failure of Stephen's Turkish-supported siege would leave a power vacuum in the region that would not be settled until he defeated Hungarian, Wallachian (under Radu), and finally Ottoman forces in battles over the unsettled Chilia question.Shield2 04:47, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Conversion to Catholicism

"Dracula, who had converted from Orthodoxy to Catholicism in order to gain support from Corvinus, asked the Hungarian king for assistance." This is not exactly accurate. McNally and Florescu reveal that when he asked Corvinus for assistance, he indicated that he was interested in converting to Catholicism and marrying a member of the royal family. However, he did not actually do so until years later to get out of imprisonment.

Wrong numbers

Stop adding such huge Ottoman numbers! 90,000 men was a complete impossibility to gather during that age. The biggest army to gather for such battle was 20,000 or less, the Turks has always been in constant war, and their numbers were few, since they lost many soldeirs after so many battles!

All the versions are presented and a compromise is presented. The numbers are realistic. Only 13 years later, Mehmed gathered an army of up to 120,000. Please don't remove sourced material. --Thus Spake Anittas 11:04, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

GAC

I have decided to pass the article. I think that is very well written and well cited. The only thing I have to say against the article is that the after math section has no cits and I recommend that it is fixed. ANyway once again well done on the article. Kyriakos 22:05, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Quality Concerns

There is a statement with an ambiguous reference in the article. It reads: Historians credit Dracula as one of the first European crusaders to use gunpowder in a 'deadly artistic way'. I have three objections to this. First of all, I really don't care about the deadly artisticity of using gunpowder, nor do I think it is appropriate for Wikipedia to dveleve into such fantasy. Second, the aim of this article is hardly to bring an evaluation of how artistic Dracula was in his deadly methods but to explain events surrounding a battle. And third, not only the reference itself is ambiguous, but also it is at most a personal view of someone. So I propose the deletion of that phrase. In addition, I wonder, why on Earth my remarks in th edit page are being removed?????????74.66.233.1 15:39, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

That statemnt is sourced and it is in context because it described the conflict between Dracula and the Ottomans. It is not Wikipedia fantasy. --Thus Spake Anittas 06:02, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes I am sure there are few lunatics out there who are giving out artistic points to historic figures' use of gunpowder in a deadly way, and have those pieces of rubbish published too. I also have no doubt that Dracula would be a formidable contestant. This does not answer my question though does it? May be I should spell it for your benefit. WHAT IS THE HISTORICAL SIGNIFICANCE OF THE ARTISTIC QUALITY OF THE WAY DRACULA USED GUN POWDER? If by any chance your outlook to life is as skewed as the source you are citing, can you please also provide the list of other contestants in this noble artistic contest and how they faired so that we can see that it at least was a fair remark? By the way, is this from a schoolbook or something? That would really be something. 74.66.233.1 06:03, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

"Deadly artistic way" in this context can be interpreted as 'in a very efficient way." It has nothing to do with art. The significance lies in the fact that he was the first, or one o the first, to use gunpowered (not from cannons) in a very efficient way. --Thus Spake Anittas 13:41, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Funny. 199.219.138.254 (talk) 01:02, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Anittas you are a clown. Remove the line!

GA Sweeps Review: Pass

As part of the WikiProject Good Articles, we're doing sweeps to go over all of the current GAs and see if they still meet the requirements of the GA criteria. I'm specifically going over all of the "Conflicts, battles and military exercises" articles. I made several corrections throughout the article as well. I believe the article currently meets the criteria and should remain listed as a Good article. As a side note, I'd recommend that more sources be added to the "Aftermath and legacy" section, and that the long quotes in the "Battle" section be condensed some. If you have any questions, let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. I have edited the article history to reflect this review. Happy editing! --Nehrams2020 09:29, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Why does the article use 'Ţepeş' as if it was his actual name?

Reading 'Ţepeş' all over the place looks just as unnatural as if the article on Edward the Confessor should constantly mention 'the Confessor': "The Confessor was born in 1003..." Likewise, 'Ţepeş' is not a surname, and it was not even a name he ever used. His name was Vlad Drăculea, or Vlad III. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.184.218.214 (talk) 10:20, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Aftermath and legacy

Moved this from the article as it has been marked as unreferenced since 2008. AIRcorn (talk) 12:15, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Radu managed to convince the Wallachians that paying the Jizya (tax on non-Muslims) and having him as their leader would be in their best interest. Vlad Ţepeş was abandoned and fled to Transylvania, where he was imprisoned by Corvinus for 12 years based on a forged letter that described him as asking the sultan for forgiveness and for an alliance against Hungary. He was released in 1474 and was soon on his way to Bosnia with a Hungarian army, where he captured towns and fortresses and impaled 8,000 Turks. Stephen of Moldavia had managed to capture Chilia and Akkerman and managed to defend them against the Ottomans at the Battle of Vaslui. The two cousins forged an alliance and in 1476, conquered Wallachia together; however, in December 1476, Vlad Ţepeş died in battle against the Ottomans. Radu had died of syphilis a year earlier (1475).

The conflict ended all Ottoman ambitions of annexing Wallachia to the empire. The Wallachian success left its mark in Romanian tradition and literature, as well as in other nations of the time.

"Turnu Severin"

It is said in the article that the Ottomans invaded the city of Turnu Severin. I'm a total newbie when it comes to Wallachian geography, but aren't those two separate cities? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rjaroszewski (talk • contribs) 00:06, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Jizya

He wasn't refusing to pay the jizya, since that is a per-head tax on non-Muslims within the Ottoman Empire (or other Muslim states) proper; the Ottomans were treating Wallachia as a client state/tributary nation, not having annexed it, and thus were demanding tribute. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.223.223.218 (talk) 10:52, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Renaming?

There have been tens of thousands, possibly hundreds of thousands, of attacks during the night in history. Can we rename this article to something less vague? 117.56.215.14 (talk) 01:57, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Well, this article seems to be so-named because this is how many reliable sources refer to it. Do you have a suggestion for an improved title? The Night Attack (Ottoman Wars in Europe) seems a little wonky. Plus, I don't think there are any other articles with a name like this, otherwise we'd have a disambiguation page with hundreds of thousands of articles for every nighttime raid that ever happened. But, most of those raids are in the context of other battles and wars that have their own names and are properly referenced on WP by the names of those battles and wars. By all accounts, this was THE proverbial Night Attack. Regards, <> Alt lys er svunnet hen (talk) 07:08, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

Fear tactics claim

Hello All, The last sentence in the third paragraph, "Horrified, the Sultan and his troops retreated." is nonfactual. It certainly defies historic accounts of the events. I would like to see the evidence supporting this claim, if any exists. If not, I would like it removed as it desecrates the memroy of a great king and sultan who accomplished much thought to be impossbile till then. -Dominator1453 (talk) 13:08, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

I agree that the uncited statement in the lead is misleading regarding what the sources and the end of the article imply. The Ottomans retreated, but both sides claimed victory - I haven't seen any source confirming that he was actually horrified (both sides did things like impalement, AFAIK). The end of the lede (and the article itself) should put this in further perspective of the Ottoman wars in Europe, which is that while Vlad did temporarily stop the Ottoman advance, this would prove to be short-lived, and Wallachia would soon be overrun. As far as being a "great king who accomplished the impossible"... If conquering, torturing and killing thousands of people in wars for empire was the least bit impossible... well, what a world it would be! Anyway, maybe we can replace the 3rd paragraph with this:

"The assassination attempt failed and Mehmed marched to the Wallachian capital of Târgovişte, where he discovered another 20,000 impaled Turks. The Sultan and his troops sailed to Brăila, and burned it to the ground before retreating to Adrianople. Both sides would claim victory: while Pope Pius II proclaimed Vlad Ţepeş' campaign a success for Christianity, Mehmed II returned with many captured slaves, horses and cattle. The halt in the Ottoman advance would prove to be short-lived."

This is probably not perfectly ideal either, but I feel it's a start. <> Alt lys er svunnet hen (talk) 22:46, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Citation Needed tag in lede

I initially removed the tag, but actually agree that it should remain. I removed it because I felt that the revision cleared up the previous reasons why the tag was placed - but I think now the main reason it should be there is that there is no context for the assertion that the "halt in the Ottoman advance would prove to be brief." According to the sources it was some thirteen years later that Vlad marched on Bosnia, resulting in an Ottoman counterattack on Wallachia ultimately culminating in Vlad's death. @Igoldste:, if we took out that last sentence of the lede do you think we could remove the tag? The rest of the lede is based on already-sourced elements within the article. <> Alt lys er svunnet hen (talk) 23:42, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

That seems reasonable to me.

Best, Ira Goldstein (talk) 06:35, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

Does anyone check the sources around here?

This article has always stroke me as an unashamed hagiography to Vlad Tepes and somehow it has been a popular material for the Wikipedia's opening page for years. Out of curiosity I checked the source for the "deadly artistic use of the gunpowder" remark, which is listed as Joseph Geringer's book "Staggering the turks" in the article. The provided link by Wikipedia to crimelibrary.com is dead. A Google search on "Staggering the turks" title brings either this Wikipedia page or other sites which are copied from this page. Amazon has two books by an author named Joseph Geringer, one is "Drown the stage with tears" the other is titled "Near to me". Likewise in Google books. A search on Joseph Geringer name brings several people on LinkedIn, one of which is a person living in the Chicago area, considers himself an administrator and professional writer, lists the two books I mentioned above as his creative achievements and also states that (he) "wrote a series of deeply researched Internet books for the noted Crime Library". The only post secondary education he lists is his attendance to Saint Xavier university between 1973 and 1975. He does not mention anything about the title "Staggering the turks". So in short:

- Even if there ever was a source for the "deadly artistic" remark, it appears not to be a published book or peer reviewed historical article but just a piece written for a website.

- Even if there ever was a source for the "deadly artistic" remark it does not seem to exist anymore even over the internet.

- The supposed author of that piece neither makes a claim to nor lists any credentials to qualify him as a historian in his online vita.

Therefore there seems to be no verifiable basis to this article's statement: Historians credit Vlad Ţepeş as one of the first European crusaders to use gunpowder in a "deadly artistic way". Does such a thing matter to Wikipedia editors?

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Bad Title

This article uses S-cedilla and T-cedilla, move it to S-comma and T-comma. 93.136.83.252 (talk) 00:51, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

• I agree, I went through and tried to fix as many of the errors in the page as I could, especially for the name 'Țepeș', but don't know how to fix the title. I'll post it to the Tea House and see if anyone can help. 2WR1 (talk) 00:07, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

Who was the winner?

What do reliable sources say about the outcome of the battle? Borsoka (talk) 03:19, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 May 2021

Bruhsmillah (talk) 06:21, 19 May 2021 (UTC) Result: Wallachian victory, sources: https://www.annalesfsu.ro/siteeng/Tome_XX/9IOncescu.pdf

 Note: As far as I can tell all this source says about the battle is Until the beginning of the 18th century the Romanians won, in the course of time, a series of victories against the Ottoman Empire (1394-Rovine, 1462-Târgoviște, 1475-Vaslui, 1595-Călugăreni) but winning these battles did not mean that they won the war against the Ottomans. I'm not sure if that's enough to change the infobox. What I will say, based on the pictures in the article, is that Vlad won the battle of mustaches. Leaving this open for other input. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 10:49, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: Failed verification as above. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 17:11, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

Per this version it's been described as a victory for either side, assuming the references are cited correctly. Per WP:MILMOS#INFOBOX and Template:Infobox military conflict, it's either "x victory" or "Inconclusive", which is why it was amended from that version to start with. FDW777 (talk) 17:33, 19 May 2021 (UTC)

@ElDiabloChico, please see above for the reasoning for my reverts. Please discuss per WP:BRD. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 19:04, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

The Wallachians have won, most sources claim this and also all the wikipedia pages in foreign languages. Mehmet left Wallachia so it can't surely be an ottoman victory either. Marlon1505 (talk) 17:00, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

@Marlon1505:, #1 if you make the claim that "most sources" state a result you need to produce those sources so they can be compared to what has already been considered above. #2, each language Wikipedia is an independent project and there is no particular reason or motivation to recognize what one language says about an event in another. If you want to produce the sources that those other articles use, and those sources are supportive, then they might add to the discussion. I hope that helps. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 18:31, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

The reference cited in the version above, Dracula: Essays on the Life and Times of Vlad the Impaler (edited by Kurt Treptow) says In all likelihood, the unsuccessful night attack on the Sultan's camp marked Dracula's defeat . . The failure of the night attack made it clear that Dracula's forces were no match for the power of the Imperial army.

Wallachian "victory"

It was clearly a Wallachian win, Vlad the III won in the field ElDiabloChico (talk) 19:07, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

@ElDiabloChico:, if you want to change the "result" parameter, we need something more than one editor's opinion. We need verifiable reliable sources that make this statement which we can cite. See above for a previous failed attempt at verifying such a change. I hope this helps. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 20:06, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

The issue isn't the lack of references, but that the ones that do exist don't agree who won. In situations like that, the instructions at Template:Infobox military conflict are to use "Inconclusive". FDW777 (talk) 20:25, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

My source is ElDiabloChico (talk) 01:11, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

Did you even read the last post in the thread? Victory for both sides can be referenced, therefore the infobox instructions say to use "Inconclusive". FDW777 (talk) 05:47, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

You didn't read the sources

ElDiabloChico (talk) 14:01, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

There's no need to, since there's a reference that disagrees and says the Ottomans won. You can pretend it doesn't exist as much as you like, it does and it prevents your preferred version per WP:NPOV. FDW777 (talk) 14:07, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

It isn't an Ottoman victory, I agree.---Lilach5 (לילך5) discuss 04:05, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

References

Wallachia victory

🇷🇴 46.97.176.14 (talk) 15:48, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

Do you have better reason than a flag? ---Lilach5 (לילך5) discuss 07:39, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 August 2022

restul= Walachian victory Bold text 46.97.176.244 (talk) 03:31, 22 August 2022 (UTC)