Talk:List of ethnic slurs and epithets by ethnicity

Merkin

When I hear this term, I think of pubic hair, not Americans and I don't think it is commonly used slur for Americans and I've been on the internet since the 1990s. It looks like the source for the use of this term is a blog on words and its primary usage was on Usenet which I don't think anyone uses any more and no one under 20 has even heard of. Maybe they are thinking of 'Merican?

I'm sure there are better slurs for American that have proper sourcing. I say remove this term. Many of the terms listed in List of ethnic slurs and epithets by ethnicity#European section are specific to the United States and I think could be moved to the American section of the page rather than being lumped in with other terms for actual Europeans. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 19:44, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 August 2022

The description for "Paki" is not entirely true and can be expanded to be more truthful about its overall, and fairly complex, history and usage.

Current: pejorative for a person of Pakistani descent, but has been used against South Asian people (including East Indians, South Indians) in general

Why I believe it should be changed: As a Canadian Pakistani who has also lived in the US, the term Paki is not considered offensive in any way whatsoever in North America. Many of us introduce ourselves by saying "I'm Paki" just like a shortened "Brit" or "Aussie". The term is considered offensive in the UK because of it's "Paki-Bashing" history which is covered in the "Paki" Wikipedia Page. The page itself links to the Dictionary.com definition which mentions it is "Chiefly British Slang".

What I think it should be: (UK) pejorative for a person from South Asia (particularly Pakistan) and mainly used in the United Kingdom. First recorded in 1964 during increased immigration of Pakistanis to the United Kingdom and popularized during a heightened era of Paki-bashing. Although considered the 'P-Word' in the United Kingdom, it is colloquially used by Pakistanis in North America and elsewhere to refer to themselves and is not commonly perceived as deragatory when referred to as Paki by others.

The Paki page should also be linked to the heading. Razisyed97 (talk) 13:11, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

 Done Inspector Eevee (talk) 16:51, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

References

Gusano - Ethnic and Political slur

If Coon and Uncle Tom are ethnic slurs (used for black people with certain beliefs), as well as Nazi - for all Germans, shouldn't Gusano be listed - used only against Cuban people (with certain political beliefs)? People don't call all reactionary people Gusanos, only of Cuban origin. 2607:FEA8:57DF:DCB0:D8C8:E908:BF22:3D62 (talk) 15:50, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Nazi might be considered a slur against Germans when used to describe Germans who aren't nazis, because the mislabeling is based solely on their nationality. It's not a slur when used to describe Germans who are nazis, simply a statement of fact. Furthermore the paper cited as a source for gusano's inclusion doesn't actually support the claim that it's a racial slur. Rather, it describes its use by the Cuban government to refer to earlier waves of Cuban expats. It contrasts this use with the ideological reversal by the government when describing the Marielitos who are categorically not gusanos and who did face discrimination when immigrating to the US. If an adequate source can't be found, I think the word should clearly be removed from the list. 2601:448:C580:6D70:0:0:0:4F01 (talk) 20:07, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

The same logic can be applied to countless other words that are naturally accepted as racial slurs. Imagine arguing that Uncle Tom isn't a racial slur because although it is specifically directed at black people (in the same way Guano is specifically directed at Cubans), it is only done so for political purposes. Furthermore, Gusano is used against people of Cuban decent that have nothing to do with the politics that you are asserting the word is strongly coupled to. In this case it seems that your argument is coming from bad faith where you don't want this to be a racial slur and you are looking for justifications to that end. 50.47.83.158 (talk) 20:42, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Please try to assume good faith, or at least don't assume bad faith because of a single comment. I didn't argue that Uncle Tom isn't, in some contexts, used as a racial slur, and I don't appreciate you claiming that I did. I think they are clearly different cases. The comparison to nazi is much more apt, since some people, even some Germans, are in fact nazis, and in those cases it's accurate and appropriate to describe them as such. My argument for gusano's removal (to repeat for emphasis) is that it isn't typically used to mislabel Cubans who aren't gusanos, and that the source cited in the article actually directly contradicts this notion. 2601:448:C580:6D70:0:0:0:4F01 (talk) 21:01, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

The difference here is that actual Nazis called themselves ~Nazis, they were in the party. I doubt that people, who opposed Castro and were against revolution for any reason, good or not, called themselves Gusanos (literally worms/maggots).

It is still an ethnic slur, because it doesn't apply to any other ethnicity/nationality, except Cuban. 2607:FEA8:57DF:DCB0:198F:9719:E48B:7882 (talk) 22:20, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

To clear up confusion: it is a Cuban word used by Cubans. That doesn't mean it's solely used for Cubans. Anecdotally, I use it frequently and with great pleasure to refer to all manner of rabidly anticommunist expat, from China to Vietnam to Venezuela. What you take to be a racialized targeting is merely an artifact of its cultural origin. And one more time, all this is borne out by the words of the very paper currently used to justify the word's inclusion on this list, which you can go read yourself through SciHub if you care about sourcing the information on this encyclopedia. 2601:448:C580:6D70:0:0:0:4F01 (talk) 03:15, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

A racial slur being used against groups outside of the group associated with its origin doesn't somehow make it no longer a racial slur. This argument makes no sense for "gusano" in the same way it makes no sense for any other racial slur. 50.47.83.158 (talk) 04:23, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

It is not used to disparage Cubans for being Cubans, but to disparage reactionaries for being reactionaries.

The fact is that this is not an unprecedented case, but right out of the reactionary playbook. Any time they are described in harsh terms (appropriately or inappropriately, depending on your politics), reactionaries will insist that they are being attacked because they belong to a much larger group which they claim to speak for. Racists will claim that "racist" is a slur against whites; Zionists claim that "Zionist" is a slur against Jews. TERFs claim that "TERF" is a slur against women. Homophobes claim that "homophobe" is a slur against Christians. And gusanos claim that "gusano" is a slur against Cubans. They will try to claim this even if many, or even the majority, of that group does not agree with them. The cases in which they may have a point are those in which such words are applied indiscriminately. In the case of gusano, a word used predominantly by Cubans to describe reactionaries, I can find no evidence that this is the case.

I have made my argument against its inclusion from the sourcing already used. I invite you to meet that standard. 2601:448:C580:6D70:0:0:0:4F01 (talk) 16:20, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Your personal definition of gusano, "a disparagement for reactionaries being reactionaries", is not relevant to this article, which is referencing the racial slur. 50.47.83.158 (talk) 17:51, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Your personal usage seems irrelevant. It's usage was used by Castro for anyone that emigrated because that was itself seen as a rejection. So any Cuban who wasn't in Cuba is referred to as a gusano. It is an epithet used specifically against Cubans for not holding a certain view. That seems no different than "Uncle Tom". Gusano was also specifically used because the aim was to view them as less than human the lowest of the zoological scale, it was used interchangeably with parasito for a similar reason. A derogatory term used to isolate and dehumanize an ethnic group for not following a specific viewpoint seems fits the definition.

Doi:10.5901/mjss.2013.v4n10p347

https://doi.org/10.1515/9783110890617 Shellerz (talk) 16:15, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Please stop referring to actual Cubans as the racial slur, "gusano", it is inappropriate. Gusano literally means worm, and much like in the case of the slur Uncle Tom, there are no people that self-label as such. This is obviously different from Nazis in which case the ruling party of Germany for a time were literally the Nazi party, and to this day people still cling to that ideology. 50.47.83.158 (talk) 02:15, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

I've seen your talk page, so your paeans to a narrow conception of civility sort of fall flat for me, sorry. A duck is a duck and a worm is a worm. 2601:448:C580:6D70:0:0:0:4F01 (talk) 03:17, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

and a racist is a racist. 50.47.83.158 (talk) 03:39, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

So do you agree with Aguirre that it was used as a racial slur at some point? The term béni-oui-oui is listed, even though it no longer applies to the political situation of today (notably French Algeria existing). If it was a racial slur at some point, it seems to me gusano should be included just like béni-oui-oui. Youngrubby (talk) 14:36, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

No, I don't agree that. I'm being as clear as I can. Meet me halfway. 2601:448:C580:6D70:0:0:0:4F01 (talk) 16:02, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

So I think there are several points being discussed at once here. I agree it follows from the article that the Marielitos were not gusanos, but I don't see how that is relevant to the people who were called gusanos. If someone were to be mislabeled a gusano, there has to be a mismatch between what they are and how they are labeled. If the Marielitos are not gusanos, and are not labeled as such, they were not mislabeled.

The article does go into people who were called gusanos in the 1960s and 1970s, which I think is more relevant. They were framed as not being part of the Cuban nation, which I think can have some ethnic connotation. Youngrubby (talk) 17:51, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 September 2022

Revert Planetjanet's Sept 23 removal of "gusano" from list of ethnic Cuban slurs. While the removal was because justified as it being a "political slur", it is a slur that refers to one of a specific ethnicity.

The initial edit was immediately following a large Discord community being criticized for using "gusano" derogatorily.

Removed content is below:

Gusano

Cuban exiles. The term was coined by Fidel Castro, who called Cubans leaving in the Freedom Flights gusanos ('worms') and insisted the Cuban exiles were capitalists who had profited during the pre-Castro era. 2600:4040:F118:E200:DD36:42A5:8CC:52E1 (talk) 17:49, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

PlanetJanet's justification for removing Gusano was to "see discussion on Talk page archive 2." Just so we are clear, there was no discussion on page 2 of the archive. There was one person saying it should be removed nearly 10 months ago and nobody responding to him. Pretty dishonest to call that a discussion. I support semiprotecting the page and examining any account that wants to remove "Gusano" for potential socketpuppet and brigading activity. They are actively trying to protect a streamer and community who use slurs like shitskin, shitdick, Gusano and cracker. These aren't the values represented by wikipedia. 63.155.103.206 (talk) 19:49, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

I could take it or leave it. Calling someone a worm is a bit of a generic insult as well. If a couple of people do not like it, then take it out. If you can establish some consensus that it should be on the list, then great, put it back. Good luck with that. I have had several discussions where I disagreed about some word someone wanted to remove or add and they would not change their mind about and despite there being 533 people watching this page and 3,900 watching List of ethnic slurs, nobody chimed in with a support or oppose. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 05:02, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

It is similar to calling black people apes/monkeys and calling Jews pigs. Long history of degrading people's ethnicity/race by comparing them to animals.63.155.103.206 (talk) 09:00, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Comparing ethnic groups to lower life forms is a common trope amongst racial slurs. If anything I would say the usage of such a comparison bolsters the claim of it being a racial slur, if anything. 50.47.83.158 (talk) 17:55, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Isn't the fact we have a large community of thousands of people using the word towards an ethnic Cuban as a slur simply due to his family ethnic background (Destiny was born in America and has nothing to do with Cubans from Cuba) itself proof of the word being a slur which deserves being on the list. PlanetJanet is literally trying to retroactively justify that behaviour. --50.72.78.42 (talk) 08:38, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

I don't see a large community editing this page, so it isn't particularly relevant to this talk page. It's just one user and thus far they haven't broken any rules. It is however against the rules to cast aspersions on the actions of other users. Please WP:AGF. Cakelot1 (talk) 09:24, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

References

Removal of Journal Sources for Gusano by Cakelot1

I make the case for reinstating the citations for the slur "gusano" which were removed by user Cakelot1. I start at this time with the two sources I provided by Prof. Jorge Duany, Ph.D, one of which can be found on JSTOR and the other being from OpenEdition Journals.

Jorge Duany - Neither Golden Exile nor Dirty Worm: Ethnic Identity in Recent Cuban-American Novels - JSTOR

"Despite much contradictory evidence, the myth of the Golden Exile is firmly entrenched in U.S. public opinion, poly-making circles, and academic research. Such a view typically stresses that Cubans came to this country as political exiles seeking freedom from communism rather than as economic migrants in search of better job opportunities. The exiles' upper middle-class status in Cuba meant that they brought useful occupational skills, high levels of education, and language knowledge to the United States. Because most of the refugees were light-skinned, they encountered little if any racial prejudice and discrimination in the host society. In essence, Cubans became a "model minority" among Hispanic immigrants in the United States, like the Japanese among Asians or the Jews among Europeans prior to them, proving to others immigrants that they, too, can "make it in America."

On the other hand, the image of Cuban exiles as gusanos (worm) has gained wider appeal in the last decade, especially since the Mariel boatlift of 1980. The negative view of Cuban exiles originally emerged among the ideological defenders of the Cuban Revolution, both in Cuba and the United States. For political reasons, Fidel Castro's government applied a cold war rhetoric to the Cuban exodus, branding the exiles as counterrevolutionary, unpatriotic, elitist, corrupt, selfish, and pro-American" (Duany, page 168)

This article looks at the competing images and subsequent terms that are projected onto the 1959 wave of Cuban exiles / refugees by both Americans and Cubans. One being that of the "Golden Exile" stereotype used by those opposing the Communist revolution in Cuba and the other being the slur "Gusano" used by those who supported it. I feel as this same group of Cuban exiles is distinctly defined through references to both their racial and class identity, the term Gusano should be counted as an ethnic Cuban slur. Especially as they are explicitly defined as a distinct group, with lighter skin being a specific factor for this separation. There is a political layer to this slur as it emerged through conflicts between the communists vs. anti-communists, however I don't think that should override the history of the very specific racial and ethnic distinctions that the slur imbues. The subsequent journal piece goes into more explicit detail showing that in light of increasing diversity in those leaving Cuba the terms for exiles used by the same Communist government also changed, with the introduction of new racialized slurs. I hope this will show that "Gusano" is a term that originated as a slur against the early upper class light-skinned exiles and how new slurs such as "escoria" and "lumpen" emerged to describe the group of black and brown working class exiles who left Cuba.

Jorge Duany - Cuban communities in the United States: migration waves, settlement patterns and socioeconomic diversity - OpenEdition Journals

"The period from 1959 to 1962 has been dubbed the « Golden Exile » because most of the refugees came from the upper and middle strata of Cuban society. The majority were urban, middle-aged, well-educated, light-skinned, and white-collar workers." (Duany, Paragraph 8)

"Approximately 125 000 Cubans arrived in Key West during the Mariel boat lift, representing about 12 percent of the exodus between 1959 and 1996. Most of the marielitos were young, single males; many were black or mulatto; the majority were of working-class background and had less than a high-school education. In Havana, the government officially branded the refugees as escoria (scum) and lumpen because it considered them antisocial and counter-revolutionary elements." (Duany, Paragraph 15)

"As I have argued throughout this article, successive migration waves drew deeper into the middle and lower strata of Cuban society. Whereas the early refugees came predominantly from the privileged classes of pre-revolutionary Cuba, many marielitos and balseros came from the disadvantaged sectors of post-revolutionary society. As the Cuban government itself recognized (although using derogatory terms), the gusanos (worms) of the first waves became the escoria (scum) after Mariel" (Duany, Paragraph 51)

Duany from the outset acknowledges that the majority of Cuban exiles are still majority white and urban, however the terms and subsequent slurs used to describe the different exiles who leave Cuba changes over time with increasing racial and socioeconomic diversity. With "gusano" emerging as a term adopted by the Cuban government specifically for the light-skinned and upper middle class Cubans who left in early 1959, in distinction to the "esocria" who came from the more racially diverse and working class communities in Cuba.

If anyone thinks my readings of the articles I presented so far is inaccurate please let me know, and if we can get a consensus on the use of these citations for the slur of "gusano". Thank you. GumRumGum (talk) 12:35, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

I didn't have time to go through the papers in any detail, I did skim them but I trusted the excepted sections from the user where representative. Since those interpretations are objected to I have no objection to them being re-added. If you are going to re-add I would recommend limiting to 2 or 3 refs so it doesn't get cluttered and seem like WP:REFBOMBing. 5 refs for one claim is only needed in exceptional circumstances. Cakelot1 (talk) 14:48, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Sounds good thank you Cakelot1, and I will limit the citations to re-add to the ones I provided above. I will re-add these 2 refs in a few days in order to give some time for any other editors to provide anymore feedback on the topic.

One reason I did add multiple citations was because there seems to be somewhat of a contentious back-and-forth going on around editing G at the moment and I hoped providing further scholarly insight on the topic would be helpful to resolving any issues. Unfortunately it looks like it has merely fanned the flames of an editing war. GumRumGum (talk) 18:37, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

I would review the most compelling of the sources you added and add just those back in. It looks especially like the Duany source is high quality. I don't know what users that claim that it is a "political slur" mean, there's not even a page nor mention on Wikipedia about "political slurs". Maybe you could make an argument about something like calling someone a "demonrat" for Democrat or "rethuglican" for Republican? Those are explicitly political however, and do not even imply the race/nationality/ethnicity of the subject. I simply don't buy the argument that is shouldn't be included in a list of ethnic slurs. Not to even mention the title of the page is "List of ethnic slurs and epithets by ethnicity". Thank you for adding these sources. I looked at the first citation before you added the others and that is compelling enough but adding more gives strength to your argument. Bluefist ^talk 19:10, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

@Planetjanet: I would encourage you to be involved in this discussion as you were the user that removed it recently. If you could explain why you don't believe this word should be included now is the time to talk about it. Bluefist ^talk 19:21, 24 September 2022 (UTC)