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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 50.75.226.250 (talk) at 21:36, 7 December 2022 (→‎Dates for published editions of manuscripts.: re). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

    Citation templates
    ... in conception
    ... and in reality

    citeseerx links are ALL dead

    It seems that the 10.***** citeseerx links seems to no longer work. AManWithNoPlan (talk) 13:06, 25 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    Looks like citeseerx changed something and broke ~17,000 articles using |citeseerx= and ~930 articles using the base url that cs1|2 uses. No doubt, there are broken links at other-language wikis as well because many other-language wikis copy articles with their citations from us...
    It will not be me, but someone should tell citeseerx that they have done a bad thing...
    —Trappist the monk (talk) 13:42, 25 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    And if you do a "view source" on the new pages, the 10.* number is NOT there. "I felt a great disturbance in the Wiki, as if millions of Unique IDs suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened." AManWithNoPlan (talk) 14:20, 25 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I have submitted an e-mail through their Contact Us page, FWIW. – Jonesey95 (talk) 15:06, 25 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    API worked on 2022-10-12, but failed on 2022-10-17. Very recent. AManWithNoPlan (talk) 21:29, 28 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    @Jonesey95: any word? AManWithNoPlan (talk) 13:10, 3 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    No response. I even checked my spam folder. – Jonesey95 (talk) 18:25, 3 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    This is certainly a fine-how-do-you-do. AManWithNoPlan (talk) 14:39, 9 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Compare these URLs and what they are and you will notice something https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/30e2498e8104724e200f1f0b507cad9cfb9ddca7 and https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/doc_view/pid/30e2498e8104724e200f1f0b507cad9cfb9ddca7 AManWithNoPlan (talk) 14:55, 9 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    @Jonesey95:: This to me seems to point to CiteSeerX being effectively useless. AManWithNoPlan (talk) 22:29, 9 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    @AManWithNoPlan:: That's a great discovery about the IDs (SHA-1, actually) of Semantic Scholar matching. I found a solution to fix the links which could be automated (bot) as long as we know the DOI (or arxiv id, or PubMed ID) from the citation template.
    1. Fetch https://api.semanticscholar.org/graph/v1/paper/{paper_id} (see API doc)
    2. The response looks like this:
      • {"paperId": "eb8c5efb4e4b19eeda991e473fc163905c5d8d9a", "title": "Losing Sleep at the Market: The Daylight Saving Anomaly: Reply"}
    3. Extract that hexadecimal ID and put it in a CiteSeerX URL. So it becomes:
    That's annoying of course. It doesn't make use of the (former?) CiteSeerX ID at all. Moreover, in the random example I chose (from Daylight saving time) the result is wrong! 10.1257/aer.90.4.1005 is actually the paper "Losing Sleep at the Market: The Daylight Saving Anomaly", but what SS returned was "Losing Sleep at the Market:The Daylight Saving Anomaly: Reply".
    One last note, which you may have already noticed. The hexadecimal ID is actually the SHA-1 sum of the PDF. Really. I can't think of this being useful to us, though, since we generally don't already have the exact PDF to take a checksum of to build the URL. Micler (talk) 02:48, 10 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    It certainly broke. All citeseerx hits on Google are broken. I've been checking to see if anyone on the internet had noted this (or if it was just me), and so far this post is the only notice I've found. Micler (talk) 14:21, 3 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    These folks noticed, but they had only 25 links to fix, so they looked them up and edited them manually. That's not really possible here. I tried just now to send an e-mail to the person listed as the head of the project. – Jonesey95 (talk) 23:08, 9 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Their internal search results are crap, so this is a hard task. AManWithNoPlan (talk) 00:30, 10 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    @Jonesey95: Would that be Lee Giles who you emailed? I notice on their People -> Team page, if you hover over each person, it gives a sentence about what they do. It seems like breaking 18,000 citations on Wikipedia pages is pretty awful, and they should be told about it emphatically, so they can reconsider if this change was intentional. If you don't get a response, I'll be happy to start emailing each of them, making the case until we get a response. Micler (talk) 02:48, 10 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    @AManWithNoPlan: I found the jackpot, of sorts. A data dump that relates the old CiteSeerX ID to the SHA1. https://archive.org/download/citeseerx-csx_citegraph.2017-03-31/citeseerx_checksums.tsv.gz (expands to 624 MB) contains over 10 million entries of simply (SHA,ID). So if I have 10.1.1.676.1062, I can search the file and I find dc6437569a8a2ddd1c22ef623f8fdd6e74a1b535. Voilà, now I can access the new CiteSeerX website: https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/doc_view/pid/dc6437569a8a2ddd1c22ef623f8fdd6e74a1b535 . (It takes a while to ctrl-f or grep through that many lines. Loading this file into a database would probably help.) A bot could totally do this to fix citations. Unforunately, the data only covers up to early 2017. Micler (talk) 03:31, 10 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    Any thoughts on what to do long-term? AManWithNoPlan (talk) 12:16, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I suppose that a bot or awb task might mark the ~200 articles using the base url (not necessarily in cs1|2 templates) with {{dead link}}. Perhaps IABot or some other might be able to find archives of the now broken urls. Something is happening with those because when this discussion started, there were ~930 articles using the base url.
    For the ~17,000 articles with cs1|2 templates that use |citeseerx=, if there is another identifier (|doi= and the like) or |url= has a value, a bot or awb task can remove |citeseerx= and its assigned value on the presumption that |citeseerx= is redundant. If no other identifiers an no |url= make a url and mark the template with {{dead link}}.
    For the ~50 articles that use {{cite citeseerx}}, we might mark that template as deprecated and at the same time tweak Module:Citation/CS1 to emit a deprecated-template error message. Or, instead of the error message, a bot or awb script might convert {{cite citeseerx}} to {{cite web}} and mark the new template with {{dead link}} so that IABot or some other might be able to find archives.
    I don't know what to do about the ~45 articles that use {{CiteSeerX}}.
    —Trappist the monk (talk) 14:34, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I wouldn't say |citeseerx= is redundant, likely it is an un-paywalled link whereas the DOI is not.
    Short-term I think converting using the database to hashes will fix the links and long-term the hashes will probably be fairly stable, unless they break the indexing scheme again. Mathnerd314159 (talk) 22:45, 28 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    |people= parenthetical roles

    Prompted by Editor Izno's comment in this discussion, and these older discussions:

    I hacked a couple of awb scripts to troll through {{cite av media}} and {{cite episode}} templates and extract the parenthetical 'role' so often included in |people=. The tabulated results are in my sandbox (permalink).

    The roles are normalized to lowercase. Roles with 10 or more uses account for ~79% of the use. Of the 508 unique roles, 337 are single use. Here are the roles with ten or more uses:

    most commonly used roles
    role count
    director 1259
    producer 210
    host 138
    directors 99
    presenter 98
    interviewee 95
    interviewer 87
    writer 75
    guest 73
    narrator 62
    actor 46
    performer 46
    writer/director 46
    producers 40
    reporter 39
    writers 33
    editor 24
    dir. 22
    executive producer 21
    conductor 19
    speaker 19
    composer 18
    guests 15
    1961 13
    director/co-writer 13
    interviewees 13
    subject 13
    director, producer 12
    artist 11
    hosts 11
    interview 11
    narrators 11
    author 10

    If we were to create a curated list of roles for {{cite av media}} and {{cite episode}}, it seems that that list should be taken from these most-commonly used roles. If we create a curated list, we can then deprecate |people=.

    —Trappist the monk (talk) 17:42, 6 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    Oh goddie! Whenever you limit the possible information that can be included in a citation template, it gives me an excuse to rewrite the citation as plain text. If there's enough of these problems in an article, I'd be justified in completely eliminating citation templates from the article. Oh by the way, movies and TV seem particularly prone to describing roles in strange ways. Jc3s5h (talk) 18:09, 6 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    |people= is an equal alias of |authors=. We discourage the use of |authors= because it does not contribute to the citation's metadata so users who consume en.wiki citations via their metadata don't know who the 'people' are. This has been a long-ongoing issue that we should someday resolve. I have suggested more than once that we could create a curated list of roles for use in {{cite av media}} and {{cite episode}} so that editors who use those templates can use these parameters and the module would add the appropriate parenthetical annotation. Assembling the curated list is step one in that process.
    —Trappist the monk (talk) 23:39, 6 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    1. Did you count only the first instance of a parenthetical appearing? Or all parentheticals?
    2. Did you look into what is happening with {{cite av media notes}}?
    Izno (talk) 01:10, 7 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Everything in parentheses in |people= except for parenthetical wikilink dabs – nested parentheses are not well handled but there aren't many of those ... I did not look at {{cite av media notes}}.
    —Trappist the monk (talk) 01:43, 7 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    This is not the right approach. If such roles are to be codified, the role choices should be either instrumental or auxiliary in discovering the cited work. It makes no sense to include random roles just because Wikipedia editors are using them in citations 10 times or 10000 times, when they do not help in verification. Agreed-upon international cataloguing and metadata standards list a variety of usable roles (usable in the sense that catalogued works include the role nomenclature and its related person/entity in the item's description). These roles are used by all kinds of participating information repositories (trade organizations, publishers, libraries, accessible online databases etc) to list their works. Using these same roles works can be easily discovered.
    It is also a good idea to keep |people= regardless. There may always be unforeseen exceptions and special cases. Assuming roles are properly codified, accepted bibliographic items such as "director" could be part of a |people= exclusion list, i.e. CS1/2 defined roles should generate an error when input in |people=. 50.75.226.250 (talk) 17:28, 7 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    If it is unacceptable to use the roles that en.wiki editors have been using for however many years, and there is a standard list of roles, produce that list here.
    —Trappist the monk (talk) 20:20, 7 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    When it comes to technical matters, such as deciding which bibliographic elements to use in citations, and their nomenclature, nothing that en.wiki editors have been using in an ad hoc manner is acceptable.
    The evolving international standards, that basically all major knowledge purveyors are implementing or have agreed to implement:
    The above are interoperable, and e.g. ONIX (metadata) can be easily derived from ISBD, which has direct mappings with UNIMARC. Also, all this information can be easily discovered online. 50.75.226.250 (talk) 16:07, 8 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    PDF link in cite book failing

    Could anyone please explain to me why the following citation [1] is failing to bring up the linked pdf. https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Alex-Kutt/publication/268151067_Northern_Freetail-bat_Chaerephon_jobensis/links/5473d3d10cf245eb436dba99/Northern-Freetail-bat-Chaerephon-jobensis.pdf also fails, whereas pasting the link into a browser works Jameel the Saluki (talk) 22:41, 7 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    References

    1. ^ Kutt, A. S.; Milne, D. J.; Richards, G. C. (2008). "Northern Freetail-bat Chaerephon jobensis" (PDF). In Van Dyck, S.; Strahan, R. (eds.). The Mammals of Australia. Reed New Holland. pp. 485–486.
    It works for me (latest Firefox on a Windows 10 computer) by clicking on the link above, by clicking on the link through the cite book template and by pasting into a browser. Not sure why it's not working for you. SchreiberBike | ⌨  23:17, 7 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    What I am getting when I click on the link is the page on ResearchGate "https://www.researchgate.net/publication/268151067_Northern_Freetail-bat_Chaerephon_jobensis", which does allow the pdf to be downloaded by pressing a further button, whereas the link I am putting in the citation should bring up the pdf directly. I am using Chrome, but tried with Firefox as well (not the latest version). Am I expecting too much? Jameel the Saluki (talk) 23:31, 7 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Because this problem is experienced outside of {{cite book}}, this is not something that can be fixed here. I'm guessing that something in the information exchanged between your browser and the ResearchGate server when you attempt to link to the pdf source via a link on a Wikipedia page is telling ResearchGate to choose the landing page instead of the pdf. Nothing that we can do about that here. If you don't get a satisfactory explanation, you might try asking at WP:VPT.
    —Trappist the monk (talk) 23:52, 7 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Ok, I'll give that a go, thanks. Jameel the Saluki (talk) 23:55, 7 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    Order of series, volume and language

    Is there a reason that language is compiled between series and volume?
    For example: Max Mustermann. Horses. Animals (in German). Vol. 3.
    Wouldn't it be better to put it directly behind the title? (or behind the volume but a series could contain diffent language objects so maybe not the best solution)
    LockaPicker (talk) 02:21, 11 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    I agree the statement of language should come after the most specific title being cited. For example, cite magazine currently formats like this[1] but really we want to say that the article being cited is in French, not the larger work/magazine (the larger work/magazine/series/... might be multilingual). Another reason is that it makes sense to put the "(in French)" soon after first the non-English text. —Micler (talk) 18:08, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    References

    1. ^ Daniez, Clément (6 November 2022). "Entre l'Ukraine et la Russie, l'impitoyable guerre des drones" [Between Ukraine and Russia, the ruthless drone war]. L'Hebdo (in French). Paris: Groupe L'Express. Retrieved 15 November 2022.

    Volume URL

    Is there a means to provide a URL for a multi-volume book and also a URL for a specific volume? E.g., for the citation

    Koren Talmud Bavli, Noé Edition תלמוד בבלי. Vol. 3: Tractate Shabbat. Translated by Rabbi Adin Even-Israel Steinsaltz. Koren Publishers Jerusalem.

    how do I provide a URL for both Koren Talmud Bavli and Tractate Shabbat? Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 18:53, 11 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    I'm having trouble understanding what a URL for a multi-volume book looks like vs. a URL for a single volume? Is there example URLs? Generally, the purpose of a citation is to allow readers to find and verify the work, so one might only link the specific volume, since it contains the fact being cited. -- GreenC 19:46, 11 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, in this case https://korenpub.com/collections/the-noe-edition-koren-talmud-bavli-1 has a description of the entire 42 volume Koren Talmud Bavli, Noé Edition collection, of which volumes 2 and 3 are Tractate Shabbath. Should I only give a URL for the specific volume?

    Koren Talmud Bavli, Noé Edition תלמוד בבלי. Vol. 2: Tractate Shabbat Part 1. Translated by Rabbi Adin Even-Israel Steinsaltz. Koren Publishers Jerusalem. ISBN 9789653016095.
    Koren Talmud Bavli, Noé Edition תלמוד בבלי. Vol. 3: Tractate Shabbat Part 2. Translated by Rabbi Adin Even-Israel Steinsaltz. Koren Publishers Jerusalem. ISBN 9789653016101.

    Should I give the URL for the collection and the ISBN for the specific volume? --Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 22:38, 11 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    cs1|2 templates are designed to support one source per template, so, for citing something in these two volumes, two templates, one for each volume.
    I'm inclined to say that you shouldn't link to that site because it is really nothing more that a bookseller. I seem to recall that somewhere in the MOS there is an instruction to avoid links to pages that are merely book sellers; WP:LINKSTOAVOID #5?). Because externally linked |title= is presumed to be free-to-read, which this url is not, perhaps |title-link=Talmud#Steinsaltz is a better choice.
    —Trappist the monk (talk) 00:51, 12 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    The page at https://korenpub.com/collections/the-noe-edition-koren-talmud-bavli-1 is the publisher's description of the collection. Even if it is a poor example, it illustrates the general question, which still applies if I replace |url= with |title-link=Talmud#Steinsaltz or |title-link=The Talmud: The Steinsaltz Edition#Koren Talmud Bavli.

    Koren Talmud Bavli, Noé Edition תלמוד בבלי. Vol. 2: Tractate Shabbat Part 1. Translated by Rabbi Adin Even-Israel Steinsaltz. Koren Publishers Jerusalem. ISBN 9789653016095.
    Koren Talmud Bavli, Noé Edition תלמוד בבלי. Vol. 3: Tractate Shabbat Part 2. Translated by Rabbi Adin Even-Israel Steinsaltz. Koren Publishers Jerusalem. ISBN 9789653016101.

    Should I specify |volume= as an external link in cases like that?
    A secondary issue is what parameter to use for volumes that the publisher doesn't number. |volume= has the right semantics but adds the string Vol.; neither |series= nor |version= appear to have the correct semantics. --Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 14:35, 13 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Any unnumbered item that is: 1) normally expected to be numbered, or 2) may be numbered for clarity, may be so implemented by the citation writer. Use something like |volume={{interp|n}} which renders |volume=Vol. [n]. One should signal the citation interpolation in code. Because, occasionally book editors may number parts of books that the author (or sometimes proofreader) may have left unnumbered. In these cases the published book will normally distinguish such later numbering in brackets. Enter those as they appear, without the {{interp}} template: |page=[n].
    Trappist is correct regarding the series URL. Readers should be directed to the specific volume cited. It is rather unusual for a whole series to be cited, and in such cases the volume URLs would not be needed. 50.75.226.250 (talk) 16:26, 14 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    Problem with "Issue" parameter and request for addition of a "Subtitle" parameter

    The issue parameter does not render in the articles when used. For example, when I add |volume=3 |issue=2 to a cite book template in an entry, only the volume number appears on the page, but not the issue number.

    I would also request for the addition of a subtitle parameter so the subtitles of certain book names can be added to the cite book template, because the lack of one presently makes it difficult to add the proper names of certain books that are part of multiple-volume series, such as for example "The Cambridge Ancient History: Volume III: Part 2: The Prehistory of the Balkans; the Middle East and the Aegean World, tenth to eighth Centuries B.C.," "The Cambridge Ancient History: Volume III: Part 2: The Assyrian and Babylonian Empires and Other States of the Near East, from the Eighth to the Sixth Centuries B.C.," and "The Cambridge Ancient History: Volume III: Part 3: The Expansion of the Greek World, Eighth to Sixth Centuries B.C.," among other publications with similarly complex naming formats.

    Can these please be addressed? Antiquistik (talk) 20:55, 12 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    "Issue" is properly used in citations of serials and continuing resources. It is not normally used (or expected) elsewhere, including book citations. The request for a subtitle is not applicable in the cases you indicated. "The Cambridge Ancient History" is a curated series. Cite it as a collection, this way (print version example):
    {{cite encyclopedia|title=The prehistory of the Balkans, the Middle East and the Aegean world, tenth to eighth centuries BC|year=1982|editor1-last=Boardman|editor1-first=John|editor2-last=Edwards|editor2-first=I. E. S.|editor3-last=Hammond|editor3-first=N. G. L.|editor4-last=Solberger|editor4-first=E.|series=The Cambridge Ancient History|volume=3, Part 1|edition=2nd|publisher=[[Cambridge University Press]]|name-list-style=amp|doi=10.1017/CHOL9780521224963.001|isbn=9780521224963}}
    65.88.88.69 (talk) 21:44, 12 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    As designed. Compare:
    • {{cite book|title=The Universe|author=John Doe|volume=3|issue=2}} → John Doe. The Universe. Vol. 3.
    • {{cite journal|title=The Universe|author=John Doe|volume=3|issue=2|journal=Cosmology}} → John Doe. "The Universe". Cosmology. 3 (2).
    Note that |issue= is not rendered in the first one, as it's not a periodical. Mathglot (talk) 22:00, 12 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    CS1 maint categories should probably contain the note about excluded namespaces

    CS1 error categories automatically contain a note that begins Pages in the Book talk, Category talk, Draft talk, File talk, Help talk, MediaWiki talk, Module talk, Portal talk, Talk, Template talk, User, User talk, and Wikipedia talk namespaces are not included in the tracking categories. The good reasons for this are somewhere deep in the archives of this talk page.

    It appears to me that CS1 maint categories also obey these namespace exclusions, but the explanatory note does not appear on CS1 maint category pages like Category:CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list. I think that this note should appear on those pages.

    As always, it is possible that I am misunderstanding or misremembering how these namespace exclusions work or are supposed to work. Corrections are welcome. – Jonesey95 (talk) 16:06, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    Agreed. Something like this edit at Category:CS1 maint: url-status ?
    —Trappist the monk (talk) 16:24, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Perfect. – Jonesey95 (talk) 19:32, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    Correct value for "via" when the deliverer is a publication too?

    Looked through the archives and couldn't find a past discussion on this; apologies if I missed it.

    In the following citation (most params removed for simplicity), to a Pahrump Valley Times piece republished in the Las Vegas Review-Journal, which approach(es) is/are correct?

    1. "Nye County commissioner, facing charges, proclaims innocence". Pahrump Valley Times – via Las Vegas Review-Journal.
    2. "Nye County commissioner, facing charges, proclaims innocence". Pahrump Valley Times – via Las Vegas Review-Journal.
    3. "Nye County commissioner, facing charges, proclaims innocence". Pahrump Valley Times – via reviewjournal.com.
    4. Some other |via= value.
    5. No |via= value.

    I assume that the last is allowed, but personally I always like to note if the deliverer is someone other than the reader might expect; clicking on a link ostensibly to the Pahrump Valley Times, and winding up on review-journal.com, can make someone think they've misclicked or that there's an error in the citation, and implicitly acknowledges the possibility that the republishing newspaper may have made changes to the original content. So assuming that this is an acceptable case to use via (and if it isn't, the documentation should be clearer, since it's a pretty common use case IME), how should it be presented? My instinct is to use the second, but the one time I did so in an article, Citation bot removed the italics. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she|they|xe) 17:43, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    When faced with that situation myself, I cite the publishing newspaper without any reference to the original paper, no via. Imzadi 1979 → 18:43, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    If you saw it in the Las Vegas Review-Journal, cite that as your source. Unless you do a lot of research, you don't know if they left out or modified part of the original article for some reason. – Jonesey95 (talk) 19:34, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Hmm but like, if they see it as worth noting that they're republishing from a different paper, surely this should be noted in some way? The alternative makes things rather confusing reliability-wise. Like, Yahoo! News republishing a paper of record is marginally less reliable than a direct citation to that paper of record, but definitely much more reliable than Yahoo! News republishing a random gossip blog. Doesn't seem very helpful to the reader to cite both of those just as "Yahoo! News". Could the |agency= parameter be used here? It's essentially the same business arrangement, and seems just as relevant if not more to note. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she|they|xe) 19:53, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    This is tricky. First, the two news outlets are affiliates. Secondly it is not clear from the LVRJ article that this is a reprint/republication. The byline only identifies the reporter as being in the Pahrump Valley Times staff. Finally, Jonesey95's reservations are valid, as the Valley Times is published less frequently (bi-weekly) and the LVRJ article has been updated at least once. Taking into account all this, I would likely consider LVRJ as the (sole) source, unless you care to dig up additional info to the contrary. 50.75.226.250 (talk) 22:11, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    That's a good point for this specific case, but what about, say, this? That's an Evening Standard article that, for whatever reason, is available through Yahoo! Sport UK. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she|they|xe) 23:49, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    That is a straight reprint. Use |via=Yahoo! Sport UK, to let readers know that their browser won't land on the source's website. On the other hand, the original is available, so why not use that URL? 65.254.10.26 (talk) 01:31, 16 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    Spurious display-authors error

    When there's only one author specified, you get an "Invalid |display-authors=1" message. I feel this case should be converted to a silent maintenance message category. Thoughts? Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 02:02, 16 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    The last of the three provided solutions in the help link will correct this issue. And no, as I was the one who implemented the relevant change, this should remain an error. Izno (talk) 02:13, 16 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree with Izno. The help text does a pretty good job of explaining the possible problems. The citation above contains confusing ambiguity, which is an error that should be fixed. – Jonesey95 (talk) 03:14, 16 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    Nested quotations in the quote parameter

    The templates handle {{' "}} situations with the minor work parameters (|title= and |chapter=), but not with the |quote= parameter:

    I see this quite often and have to manually fix it with <span style="padding-right:.15em;">'</span> (from {{' "}} ). Can this be fixed? – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 16:36, 16 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    Fixed in sandbox:

    Cite web comparison
    Wikitext {{cite web|first=First|last=Last|quote='Sometimes,' she said, 'quotations begin and/or end with a quote.'|title=Titles Sometimes End with a 'Quote'|url=https://example.com/|year=2022}}
    Live Last, First (2022). "Titles Sometimes End with a 'Quote'". 'Sometimes,' she said, 'quotations begin and/or end with a quote.'
    Sandbox Last, First (2022). "Titles Sometimes End with a 'Quote'". 'Sometimes,' she said, 'quotations begin and/or end with a quote.'

    —Trappist the monk (talk) 17:04, 16 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    Looks fine.
    Also, while we're on the topic of nested quotations—and this is a bit more ambitious: Would it be possible to automatically display single quotemarks instead of double quotemarks when they get nested:
    • Last, First (2022). "There Are "Quotemarks" in This Title". She told me that I need to "manually change double quotemarks to single quotes" every time I see them nested in citation templates.
    Cheers – Finnusertop (talk ⋅ contribs) 17:52, 16 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    Category:Harv and Sfn no-target errors

    —Trappist the monk (talk) 14:19, 18 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    Not a volume, so what?

    Can I suggest that series-number is added to the list of accessible parameters for {{Cite book}}? On a number of occasions recently, I've come across a book which is part of a numbered series, but is described as a number, not a volume in that series (a situation often found with monographs, for instance). However, unless there's a workaround I'm not aware of, the volume parameter can't used here because it prefixes the number with "Vol." when displayed as a reference. So then, what to do? If one state the series name alone it can looks slightly odd, but ideally one doesn't want to omit that information altogether.

    See here for an example of what I'm talking about.

    (Edwin of Northumbria (talk) 02:37, 19 November 2022 (UTC))[reply]

    In your example, this is not a numbered series, it is named ("Publications of the Association... etc."). The volumes are numbered. But even if the series was numbered (e.g. "2nd Series") semantically there would no difference between "volume 6", "number 6", or "volume number 6". These templates report the value as a volume ("Vol."), with the implicit understanding that other expressions are equivalent, even when they are disallowed for the sake of simplicity and efficiency. 23.246.74.210 (talk) 04:17, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    I'm slightly puzzled. The only example of a series given on the {{Cite book}} page is "History of the Second World War, United Kingdom Military Series". This doesn't seem to me to be any different to "Publications of the Association...", which isn't regarded as being part of the title of the book in question on either the WorldCat or British Library website (indeed on the latter it is explicitly referred to as the series name). Anyway, for the sake of argument, let's assume that the book is the 6th in that series. It is of course correct that volume and series-number would then be semantically equivalent, but that wasn't the point I was making. For whatever reason, the publishers chose not to use the term "volume", therefore it would be preferable to have the capacity to reflect this (an alternative means of doing so would be to use the volume parameter in conjunction with a switch that could be used to suppress the "Vol." prefix).

    (Edwin of Northumbria (talk) 07:14, 19 November 2022 (UTC))[reply]

    Respectfully, I object. Will readers be confused by the presence of "Vol."? I don't think so. Suppressing the label would require additional logic in the module. The added routines would presumably be conditional, so this would require discussion on what exactly these conditions would be. But such conditions may introduce novel concepts to CS1/2, such as the concept of monograph. Then these concepts must be accommodated and justified within the system. This is enough to keep everybody here busy for months on end. The other option is to accept that this maybe a specialized case, and forms (templates) satisfy mostly generalized cases, as a rule. 69.203.140.37 (talk) 14:59, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I too don't understand the confusion. What's wrong with citing the 6th volume of that series as Publications of the Association of Ancient Historians, Vol. 6? Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 17:12, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    Reference Tooltips and author-mask

    The Reference Tooltips gadget displays a popup of the full reference when one mouses over a short reference (from {{harv}}, {{sfn}}, etc). When the full reference contains |author-mask=, typically used in the full reference list for subsequent works by the same author, it is displayed with dashes for the author name. That is easy to interpret in the context of the full reference list, but because the gadget presents the full reference in isolation, the gadget user does not get the author's name (though the short citation will have the surname).

    This is the best the gadget can do at present, because the dashes are all there is in the rendering of the full reference. Might it be possible to include both, with varying display? Kanguole 18:41, 20 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    If this is possible, I don't know if it is, I suspect that changes to both Module:Citation/CS1 and MediaWiki:Gadget-ReferenceTooltips.js will be required. Perhaps cs1|2 could render masked names and their masks in <span>...</span> tags with appropriate class names where both the mask and the name are rendered in the html. Only the mask displays on the page and only the name displays in the tooltip:
    {{cite book |title=Title |author=EB Green |author-mask=2}} 
    <cite id="CITEREFEB_Green" class="citation book cs1"><span class="mask">&mdash;&mdash;</span><span class="masked">EB Green</span>. ''Title''.</cite>
    where: 
    .mask {}
    is empty (or non-existent) and where 
    .masked {display:none}
    hides the 'name'. Such a citation would render like this on the page:
    ——EB Green. Title. – mockup
    Presumably – I know squat about what .js can do – the gadget might then rename the classes in the html when it renders a tool tip so that the mask is hidden and the name is displayed:
    ——EB Green. Title. – mockup
    I would not be surprised to learn that there is a better way of doing this.
    Obviously, it will be necessary to get a buy-in from whomever it is who maintains mw:Reference Tooltips.
    —Trappist the monk (talk) 20:34, 20 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    The other thing that could be done that requires no change on our part on our wiki at least is to pull the information from the Coins. Izno (talk) 21:30, 20 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I thought that at first but for the .js coder, would be more work, and for the cases where the name is an editor's name, the name is not available in the metadata because COinS doesn't support editor names. For contributor/author names, the first author name if written in the template using |first=/|last= is put into &rft.aufirst and &rft.aulast. Subsequent enumerated |first=/|last= pairs are put into the metadata as &rft.au=Last, First; |author= also goes into the metadata as &rft.au=Author. The .js would have to assemble the first author name and maintain some sort of internal counting to get the other masked names from the metadata. So, I thought it would be simpler for the .js coder to simply rename the mask and masked classes and be done. This (I think) is relatively easily done with a simple regex replace...
    —Trappist the monk (talk) 23:11, 20 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    This has been requested before. Probably using html spans is a good starting point of discussion for the CS1 module edits; {{tooltip}} is based on this tag. Its use of the id tag is interesting, as there is a unique citeref id already available to short citations, and could be used to pull the masked name from the appropriate full citation. This could be doable since citerefs are hierarchical, ordered (per name) according to the second concatenated element, normally a date element. 64.18.11.71 (talk) 01:46, 21 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    CS1 maint: ref duplicates default: wrong maintenance message?

    In my current sandbox, I am trying to use the {{cite NDB}} template that calls {{citation}}. If I use

    *{{cite NDB|20|502|504|Planta||last1=Deplazes-Haefliger|first1=Anna-Maria|last2=Brunold|first2=Ursus|121979652|mode=cs1|ref={{sfnref|Deplazes-Haefliger|Brunold|2001}}}} I get a "CS1 maint: ref duplicates default" maintenance message but {{sfn|Deplazes-Haefliger|Brunold|2001}} works correctly. If I remove the ref= bit, the {{sfn}} no longer works (although the maintenance message says that my handwritten ref is the same as the default). Apparently the maintenance message is wrong in this case? Or am I doing something else wrong? Or does the {{cite NDB}} template need to be changed? —Kusma (talk) 16:11, 24 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    This is being discussed at Template talk:NDB § "CS1 maint: ref duplicates default" warning.
    —Trappist the monk (talk) 16:54, 24 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    Magazine with volume, number and issue

    The magazine Commodore Microcomputers has a volume number, a number and an issue number (Vol. 5, No. 5, no. 32.) Currently this shows as an error, but the issue does have these numbers. Usually, the number and issue are the same, but not here. Not sure what to do. [from Cite magazine] Auric talk 14:59, 26 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    The magazine numbered issues two ways: per volume (vol. 5, number 5) and serially, per issue (overall number 32). A confusing but not rare practice. It was a bi-monthly. I assume that one or more volumes had more than 6 issues (specials? double issues?), so the serial number is 32 rather than 29. In the contents page the listing uses 3 variants: "Volume 5, Number 5, Issue 32 November/December 1984". The date variant for the issue is also used on the front page. I would use the first scheme, as ordered: Volume 5, Number/Issue 5. 50.75.226.250 (talk) 17:14, 26 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    Must translation parameters use the translations in the text?

    When a text is published with a translation, must |trans-quote= and similar parameters use the translation in the text, or may an editor substitute a translation that she believes to be more accurate? This question is prompted by https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hillel_the_Elder&curid=313892&diff=1125022169&oldid=1124176915, which I believe to be WP:OR. Either way, it would be helpful if the documentation of, e.g., |trans-title=, specified whether editors must respect the translations in the text. Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 14:50, 2 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    Yes, use the text, Quotes should be verbatim. Editor interpolations are allowed only for context, for example when substituting a generic "he" in the quote with the actual name of the person/character. The translated title is part of the work's publication data and the citation's retrieval data. Should be entered as is at all times. 50.75.226.250 (talk) 16:05, 2 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    i18n editor-name / editor-annotation separator

    Editor حبيشان has (correctly) tweaked the sandbox. When the citation has an editor name list and a publication date but does not have an author name list, the separator used to separate the last editor name from the editor annotation is a hard-coded <comma><space> pair. After the tweak, the module uses the value specified by name_sep in Module:Citation/CS1/Configuration/sandbox (for en.wiki this is also a <comma><space> pair).

    Cite book comparison
    Wikitext {{cite book|date=2022|editor=Bob|title=Title}}
    Live Bob, ed. (2022). Title.
    Sandbox Bob, ed. (2022). Title.
    Cite book comparison
    Wikitext {{cite book|date=2022|editor2=Cat|editor=Bob|title=Title}}
    Live Bob; Cat, eds. (2022). Title.
    Sandbox Bob; Cat, eds. (2022). Title.

    —Trappist the monk (talk) 23:39, 2 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    S2CID limit reached

    Per Category:CS1 errors: S2CID, I would like to raise the currently configured limit of 254000000 due to new publications going beyond that number. For example, [1]https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Taxonomic-study-of-the-genus-Cyprideis-JONES%2C-1857-Sousa-Ramos/070b5685c32091ba9625901a4115943b5ca94548 Aithus (talk) 06:28, 3 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    Dates for published editions of manuscripts.

    When citing a published version of a manuscript, is there any reason to not require the |date= in the {{cite book}}, etc., to be the date published, with the date of the original manuscript relegated to the |orig-date= parameter? In particular, if the published version includes a translation, isn't the date of the translation what is importanat in the citation? Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 18:48, 7 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

    It all depends on what the editor read. If the editor read the published version of the manuscript, the date parameter should be set to the publication date of the published version, and the orig-date parameter could be used for the date of the manuscript. Whether the translation is more important than the original words depends on what the Wikipedia editor is writing about the source. Jc3s5h (talk) 18:56, 7 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I assumed that the editor read the version that he cited, and that he would have cited the original manuscript had he read it. Of course, he might have read both, but then I would expect a citation of both, as appropriate. --Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz Username:Chatul (talk) 19:08, 7 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    The term "manuscript" may mean several different things. Can you be more specific? Is this about historical manuscripts predating print? Is it an author manuscript that was eventually published? Are they originals? Fascimiles? Tranlations that are manuscripts themselves? Normally, citation templates are not a good fit for citing stand-alone, original manuscripts, and there may also be availability issues. Perhaps a free-form citation is better for what you have in mind. Generally, formal citations cite works that are published (i.e. made more or less publicly available) and as stated above, the publication date is what is needed. 50.75.226.250 (talk) 21:35, 7 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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