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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Muchandr (talk | contribs) at 12:33, 10 April 2023 (→‎The whole article is false.: Reply). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

The statement about Kyiv-Mohyla Academy

"He expanded the Kyiv-Mohyla Academy, the primary educational institution of Ukraine at the time, to accommodate 2,000 students, founded schools and printing houses". Since during that time Ukraine was a part of the Russian Empire, this sentence should be mentioned as "primary educational institution of Ukraine and Russian Empire". The Moscow State University has been founded only in 1755 by M. Lomonosov who spent some time in Kyiv-Mohyla Academy himself (look into appropriate articles about Moscow University and Lomonosov). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.187.102.37 (talk) 23:13, 24 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Place of death

Did Mazepa die at Bendery? My source (Lonely Planet guide to Romania says so) can someone more in the know comment on this Jackliddle 22:42, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Yes, only the city carried the name of Bender at that time and was part of the Ottoman Empire. He ran there together with Carl XII who seeked to find an ally against the Russians. The great historian and politician Mykhailo Hrushevskiy says that in his book History of Ukraine-Rus. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 23:27, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Another Muscovy/Russia name debate

I don't think that the Cossacks or Rus'-Ukraine used the Greek word, "Rossiya" for the Tsar's state. The Muscovites didn't adopt that as a country name until 1713, which created diplomatic difficulties. Genyo 02:00, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Absurd and incorrect. Muscovy was just an old term for Moscow, after Ivan III or perhaps Ivan IV. Marcus2 21:59, 18 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Muscovy was known throughout Europe, as the diplomatic history of 1713 indicates, when the request by Muscovy to be called "Rossiya" was greeted with incredulity in European capitals. Document another date with facts! Don't just decide you don't like the truth! Genyo 02:24, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Marcus,

What's anachronistic about calling Muscovy, "Muscovy" in 1709? Do you know what anachronism means? Genyo 02:53, 30 Aug 2004 (UTC)

By this time, as shown to you already, nation was referred to Great Rusia (or Rosia) and after Tsar Aleksey I, using the spelling "Rossiya". Marcus2 13:10, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

When was this "shown to me already?" Genyo 04:05, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

See Talk:Russian history, 1682-1796#Reign of Aleksey I Mikhailovich Romanov. Use of "Rusia" and "Rosia". Marcus2 11:00, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I am moving this text from the article to talk for the record until anyone can find a grain of truth or at least of a known Urban myth. --Irpen 01:07, 10 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Hrushevskiy refers to Russia for this period as simply Moscow. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 00:55, 3 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Various period maps also show 'Russia' or 'Rvssia' in Latin script. As well as 'Great Tartaria' and 'there be dragons' How about Mercator's Atlas, 1619? Says Rvssia
https://sanderusmaps.com/our-catalogue/antique-maps/europe/eastern-europe/antique-map-of-russia-by-g-mercator-8454 Muchandr (talk) 23:45, 4 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The Mazeppa Ride

Mazeppa's fame lies on two foundations. One is the Battle of Poltava (1709); the other is the famous "Mazeppa ride". Curiously, the ride belongs to the domain of legend, not history. According to the legend, a young 20 year old Mazeppa was caught having an affair with the wife (or daughter) of a Polish nobleman. Wishing to rid himself of the offending young page, the nobleman had Mazeppa tied naked and backwards to a wild horse captured from the Ukrainian steppes. The intent was that Mazeppa would soon die on the inhospitable steppes. After three days of a wild ride, tied helpless, the horse finally stumbled, fell, and died. Mazeppa passed out, but at the last moment a band of cossacks happened by. They rescued him, took him to their camp, and nursed him. He rose in the ranks, ultimately becoming their leader (hetman) and ultimately "prince" of ukraine.

The story travelled to France, England, became a symbol of French romanticism, crossed the ocean as a stage play, and from the 1860s became the most performed stage play in the American west.

Please comment below. --Irpen 01:07, 10 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Mazeppa ride is obviously due to Lord Byron's opus Mazeppa. He was likely given a task to glorify Mazepa in spite of the Russian interests, but was secretly sympathetic to the alternate candidate, Menshikov. The British intelligentsia generally was. For example, was Menshikov presented by Newton himself as a member of the Royal Society, for geography and for economics. Specifically for discovering St. Petersburg and for horrendous amount of embezzling associated with it. What are Mazepa's academic credentials? The persistent rumor that Mazepa was made a prince of the Holy Roman Empire does not verify. Menshikov, however, was made a Duke of Cosel, which I don't think was that serious a title (see my comment elsewhere on this page)
Firstly, there was no way a prince of the HRE could get into serious trouble for getting into some Polish noble's wife's or daughter's pants. Pretty studly of Mazepa, who was like pushing 70 at the time.
Secondly, an allegory of riding horseback naked and tied-up is a known one. It means getting hanged. The horse is usually a wooden one, and here we deal with a seemingly real one.
Thirdly, the horse is guided by a giant raven, tearing on its ears. This is an obvious reference to Norse mythology, specifically Huginn or Muninn, Odin's personal companions. This means that Mazeppa is going for a personal meeting with Odin, reserved for insidious traitors. In case you didn't know, Odin was not only first among Norse gods, but also personally responsible for death and damnation. The fastest mode of transportation available to Odin was actually hanging himself on the branch of the Yggdrasil, the World Tree. Took up to 9 days ETA anywhere in the Universe. Hence, Odin was said to be riding a wooden horse for a few days. I interpret this as a horse provided courtesy of Odin's establishment, i.e. the Scandinavian Heck (Frozen Over?) Muchandr (talk) 23:34, 4 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The whole article is false.

The article is based on rumors that were spread throughout the Empire by Russians to discredit Mazepa. The true history states a diffrent version. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 00:59, 3 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, the Russian side of the story is actually more accurate than the Ukrainian narrative. Both sides lie a lot though and have political motives behind them. The article itself should be neutral to both schools and represent the true nature of Mazepa. I've written a research paper on this topic....too lazy to re-write the work into the wiki though...maybe some day...--Львівське (talk) 21:40, 23 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I am specifically objecting to the rather dubious Ukrainian source mazepa.name for the claim that Mazepa was made a prince of the Holy Roman Empire. Unfortunately, all the paperwork for the actual title disappeared from the Austrian archives. This is hearsay. As presented by anonymous third party at a verbal seminar at University of Vienna?
Secondly, there is no prince without principality! A grant of estate as large as a small country! Menshikov, Mazepa's nemesis, was actually offered a title of HRE Duke of Cosel (Koźle) in exchange for recognition of his title Duke of Ingria, but it looks like some kind of in-joke, because Ingria roughly corresponds to Leningrad oblast+Finland in area. This was the Tsar's personal estate administered directly from St. Pete. Cosel means goat in Russian, and is rather derogatory. Also, a Polish woiwowode title was really equal to a Count Palatine in HRE table of ranks. Between a count and a prince. Thus, the recognition of princely/ducal/royal equivalency conditional on some additional small print. Some prince-electors, the highest strata of HRE nobility were modest Palatine Counts, but most were really just counts. The only Emperor Palatine is the one from Star Wars. The Polish woiwode appears to also be the closest equivalent to Ukrainian hetman and alt-Germanic margrave, of which there was only one extant in the Anglosphere. That of Phil, Prince Consort of Lizbekistan. You know, the one who begat Chuck, their current king. Muchandr (talk) 22:52, 4 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
WP:OR--Aristophile (talk) 18:00, 5 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
And there were princes without principalities. Notably Turn&Taxis.--Aristophile (talk) 18:02, 5 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
OK, princes have a named estate within the Emperor's realm? Turns&Taxis was named after an existing private corporation. It can't be just Prince Mazepa.
I made a Google translation from Ukrainian.
On September 1, 1707, by order of the emperor, hetman Ivan Mazepa was granted the title of "Prince of the Holy Roman Empire", as evidenced by the signature of Prince Chemborn on the last page of the same letter from Mazepa and the entry in the registration book (volume XII). However, it was not possible to obtain the deed with Mazepa's princely title because it was not bought. The German diplomat, who was on duty in Russia and who, on the instructions of Peter I, came to Vienna to collect the letters with the title of count for the tsarist chancellor F. Golovkin and the titles of prince for O. Menshikov and I. Mazepa, ran out of money for the letter to the hetman, although for this matter, the hetman personally handed over three thousand ducats to Menshikov. Subsequently, this unredeemed deed disappeared.
To summarize. There is no deed. Estate name is unknown. There is a signature, by somebody who is not the Emperor, on the original petition letter. This looks like an acknowledgement of message receipt, not a grant. Muchandr (talk) 12:31, 6 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
WP:Verify Your own source does not verify. The title was never granted, because allegedly, the fee was not paid. Unfortunately, the deed disappeared subsequently. This is hearsay. Also, it was not "for services to the Holy League", but based on a hypothetical personal petition to the Emperor by Mazepa. Muchandr (talk) 05:28, 10 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
WP:CONSENSUS & WP:EDITORIALIZE & WP:IDONTLIKEIT.--Aristophile (talk) 11:52, 10 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I merely cited a verbatim Google translation from the relevant paragraph in Ukrainian, because this here is a talk page in English. (section in Italics)
Let's suppose that none of my comments apply. This still leaves the claim of a) the deed being unclaimed due to an unpaid fee, b) the deed subsequently disappearing. This is actually stated directly by your original source.
Which makes it not too original, but rather anecdotal. Muchandr (talk) 12:11, 10 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The consensus version would be something like, "Mazepa was rumored to be granted a title of HRE prince, which he never consummated due to an unpaid fee"
Come to think of that, the story of passing money the money to Menshikov is also highly suspect. Why would you pass the money for an important errand to your mortal enemy? Muchandr (talk) 12:33, 10 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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Mazepa vs. Mazeppa

So, I think it's pretty clear from a cursory search that "Mazepa" is the most common spelling, but "Mazeppa" does exist in some sources, e.g. [1][2]. I've matched the way that Britannica presented the spelling. Hopefully this is an acceptable solution for the editor that is trying to change the whole article to Mazeppa. Mz7 (talk) 01:09, 5 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

For what it's worth, when I was (re)writing Cultural legacy of Mazeppa, I came to this conclusion:
The spelling "Mazepa" refers to the historical person; the double-p "Mazeppa" is used for the artistic and literary works
Might it be worth pasting that into this article too?? --Carbon Caryatid (talk) 01:01, 7 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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