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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 5.51.183.7 (talk) at 21:21, 11 May 2023 (→Military leaders: Reply). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The heading above is a link to the RfC: Talk:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine/Archive 11#RfC on Western support to Ukraine, closed 30 December 2022.

See also earlier RfCs: Talk:2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine/Archive_9#RfC on "Supported by" in the infobox for Ukraine, closed 9 June 2022; and, Should the individual arms supplying countries be added to the infobox?: closed 6 March 2022. All RfCs were closed with "no consensus". In the most recent RfC, the closer made the following statement:

Also, can we not do this again in a couple months? There is WP:NODEADLINE, and there is sure to be plenty of academic studies and expert writings that will provide excellent context and sourcing for what, exactly, should be listed in that infobox parameter. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:04, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

Cinderella157 (talk) 06:13, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Military leaders

There’s no longer any excuse. ISW has written an article on the notable subject of Russian leadership in this conflict, and even included a handy graph.[1] This should be included in the article as soon as someone can incorporate it, and into the infobox immediately as it’s a key aspect of this subject.  —Michael Z. 23:38, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The ISW chart definitely proves this is “a piece of key specialised information is difficult to integrate into the body text” (MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE).  —Michael Z. 23:40, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Left to right: Aleksandr Dvornikov (Commander of Field Operations in 2022), Sergey Shoigu (Defense Minister) and Valery Gerasimov assigned in 2023 after Dvornikov.
Images added. Update with prominent names in Michael's list as needed. ErnestKrause (talk) 21:15, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The gallery to the right has no relationship to the cited graphic: 1) Alexander Dvornikov is mentioned as a speculative theatre commander, not a confirmed one; 2) Shoigu isn't mentioned anywhere, it should be Surovikin; 3) speculated threate commander Zhidko is ignored; 4) the fact of the theatre commander being unknown (even speculatively) from the day of the invasion to April 8th is omitted; 5) Gerasimov took the post from Surovikin not from Dvornikov, and Surovikin took the post from (speculated) Zhidko. Is a different source being consulted for the gallery? Mr rnddude (talk) 21:09, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Forgot to mention that Surovikin took the post on October 8th, 2022, not in 2023, as stated in the caption. Mr rnddude (talk) 21:13, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Okay. The point that the subject is notable and belongs in the article is still supported. Please go ahead and collect the sources to support the best version.  —Michael Z. 05:00, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don’t know how to respond. The gallery was appended by someone else and I have nothing to do with it. Dvornikov is mentioned where and what has that to do with my comment? Etcetera.  —Michael Z. 05:28, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The assertion: that The ISW chart definitely proves this is “a piece of key specialised information is difficult to integrate into the body text”, is a statement made without substance. Nothing is proven. Rather, it is belied by the statement: This should be included in the article as soon as someone can incorporate it. For information, the ISW article can be seen here. Cinderella157 (talk) 23:36, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Right now, in the infobox's "leaders" parameter we've got a serious case of great man theory going on with only Vladimir vs. Volodymyr.
Can anyone recap any previous discussions that were held regarding that line of the infobox?
I have no objection to fleshing it out, although it would probably generate further controversy on who should and should not be included 😏 RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 03:29, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
RadioactiveBoulevardier, the discussions relate to WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE and that entries to the infobox should be supported by the article and show how the leaders reported are key and significant. The infobox has only Vladimir and Volodymyr because the article as written doesn't really mention others except in passing or as a talking head (x announced) that would show any others are significant. The infobox is a reflection of the article. If this is a serious case of great man theory, then that is a criticism of the article and not the infobox. Dropping in a name in the infobox (without any other context because that is all it is) doesn't fix the problem. It doesn't tell us why they were important or what they did that was significant, remembering that articles should to stand alone. Cinderella157 (talk) 05:26, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The great man reference was tongue-in-cheek.
About determining significance, I'd say people like Syrskyi and Zaluzhnyi on the Ukrainian side, and Shoigu, Gerasimov, and Prigozhin on the Russian side, are self-evidently important enough. Usually military infoboxes have several top leaders listed. RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 06:05, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
RadioactiveBoulevardier, how does a reader know who any of those you have listed are in consequence of reading the article, let alone why they are key or significant to the invasion? Cinderella157 (talk) 06:57, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hmmm…well…they definitely played important roles… RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 07:37, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Well then, the article should explain how and why their role was important. Your great man theory may have been tongue-in-cheek but the truest things are often said in jest. Cinderella157 (talk) 08:26, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It doesn't seem out of the question to add actions and decisions made by specific commanders that have had notable impacts on the war, the sources exist, here is one on Valerii Zaluzhnyi for example. If such content is added, it would be logical to include more people in the infobox. TylerBurden (talk) 09:01, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Last year there was an image of Putin seated next to General Shoigu in the article, which has been since removed. It looks like Archive #12 from this Talk page has one of the previous discussions about the military command images. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:43, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Discussion on inclusion was deadlocked because some insisted that only leaders discussed in the article can be included, specifically because the military chain of command was claimed not to be “key specialised information is difficult to integrate into the body text” as defined in MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE. However an RFC at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Infoboxes#RfC about exceptions to WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE and commanders/leaders in Template:Infobox military conflict did not find consensus.
The civilian supreme C-in-C’s (VVP and VZ) are already present.
What’s most important for this war is the supreme commanders of forces, because of the contrast and effect. Ukraine’s military C-in-C of the Armed Forces, Valerii Zaluzhnyi, and commander of Ground Forces Oleksandr Syrskyi have been constants, and are credited with the competence that has resulted in Ukrainian success shocking the world. In contrast, Russian forces started without a supreme commander and five uncoordinated military districts. After initial failures, Putin has pushed various officers through a revolving door based on his whims and favours and fear of any “war hero” accumulating political clout (cf. Stalin and Zhukov), most of them retaining other commands, to the point that the ISW resorted to a timeline chart to represent its understanding of it.[2]
Also important are the military C-in-C’s (Zaluzhnyi’s counterpart Valerii Gerasimov) and defence ministers (Sergei Shoigu and Oleksii Reznikov).  —Michael Z. 20:11, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Much of what has been written above could be incorporated into the article with appropriate sources. It belies the assertion that commanders fall to the exception under WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE. As I stated above, simply adding names to the infobox tells us nothing about how or why those named are key or significant - unless that is supported by the body of the article. And a WP article is written to stand alone. This particular point was not raised in the RfC linked. On the other hand, the type of information exampled as an exception at WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE such as physical properties of chemicals or language classification codes do stand alone as information. Commanders clearly does not fall to the spirit and intend of the exception at WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE. The closer of the RfC stated: maybe everyone can take what they've learned so far, and if wanted, start a new discussion. Do we? Cinderella157 (talk) 01:59, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The RFC clearly determined that that there is no consensus that that is “clearly.”  —Michael Z. 13:50, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is I think the 3rd Talk page discussion of this with the last one in Archive 12. At the diplomatic level this has been Putin versus Zelensky, with Shoigu occasionally coming forward to support Putin. There was a photo of Putin with Shoigu in this article last year which was deleted and I'm not really seeing a difficulty if Michael would like to bring it back. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:48, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
And none of it is about images. If you want to discuss adding photos of leaders, please start an actual discussion on the topic. Continually making tangential comments about photos in discussions about the infobox is unproductive and disruptive.  —Michael Z. 19:33, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Opposed, to this addition to the Infobox as fully inappropriate. The current article does not support, as Cinderalla indicates above, the level of discussion to support this addition. Mzajac your comment on what is productive/unproductive for this Talk page seems to be off-base and I'll ask you to retract or strike that comment. You are now re-hashing your viewpoint on this issue of 'military commanders' a third time on the Talk page, without any apparent effect on editors, as you have done in Archive 11 here [3] and Archive 12 here [4]. I'm opposed to your request to add this information to the Infobox based on my support for Cinderella's comments above. ErnestKrause (talk) 20:45, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Just post it in a discussion with an appropriate heading, for crying out loud.  —Michael Z. 02:05, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    What..? I am also quite confused why you are bringing up the image, unless you are implying someone sitting next to Putin in an image on the article is enough to include them as a commander in the infobox that doesn't seem very relevant to the discussion, and wildly contradicts Cindarella's points above about establishing notability in the article body that you say you agree with.. TylerBurden (talk) 11:47, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm opposed to the inclusion of Mzajac's material in the Infobox, as stated by Cinderella above: "...simply adding names to the infobox tells us nothing about how or why those named are key or significant". I'm supporting Cinderella on this. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:09, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That’s nonsense. It is perfectly clear why the commander of a campaign is key and significant to the subject of the campaign. Furthermore, the very data itself conveys key and significant facts about the campaign’s conduct:[5]
This is clear, visually organized, and easily understood in the infobox, key and significant information that would be lost on anyone that didn’t read the whole article or zero in and read the paragraphs where it is described, if it even is. In fact, it is precisely “a piece of key specialised information is difficult to integrate into the body text,” that belongs in the infobox per INFOBOXPURPOSE.  —Michael Z. 15:52, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
While I'm a random reader on phone, I do support that point, and the info box Michael Z shows seems quite clear at:
- showing who is the current commander
- showing that rotation happens /had happened on the Russian side, which seems to be a key information
-with source
- while being quite short 5.51.183.7 (talk) 21:21, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Kremlin drone attack

Should we include the drone attack on the Kremlin in this article? 165.234.101.97 (talk) 13:15, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Why? Slatersteven (talk) 13:17, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No, this article isn't a news site for domestic Russian issues, regardless of how much Russia screams that it was Zelenskyy personally piloting the drone. TylerBurden (talk) 01:08, 4 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Of course. This line sums it up. 2A02:AB04:2C2:E300:E00C:7AD8:6059:3E11 (talk) 06:35, 4 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Domestic issues? Conspiracy theory much? Like how "Russia blew up its own pipelines"? 2A02:A463:2D47:1:FD5A:9B58:42AF:28B5 (talk) 17:34, 4 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This isn't a forum for your opinions, the incident has no place on this article, which is about Russia invading Ukraine, not drones blowing up in the Kremlin. TylerBurden (talk) 00:42, 5 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Russia said it’s part of the war, and numerous analysts believe that it was likely a Russian false flag connected to the war. It is part of the subject, but is it significant enough to include in this almost-main article? First it should be added to 2022–2023 Western Russia attacks and 2022–2023 Russian mystery fires.  —Michael Z. 03:21, 5 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There is so much speculation surrounding the topic that it would be difficult to get anything solid into this specific article I feel, though it certainly belongs somewhere, perhaps in the articles you linked, unless something concrete is uncovered about the attacks I don't think this is the place for it. TylerBurden (talk) 12:26, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It probably isn't a big enough deal to go into the main article, so IMO the whole discuss is moot. RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 03:22, 9 May 2023 (UTC) RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 03:22, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Probably shouldn't add it. It's almost irrelevant to this article (excluding Russia blaming it on Ukraine). The only real way I could see this being added is if Russia decides to use this as an excuse to start something big, and even then it will probably just be a line in passing due to the lack of info we have about it right now. Nice argument (talk) 17:33, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 May 2023

To make a link about the United Nations. PlaneCrashKing1264 (talk) 14:21, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ― Blaze WolfTalkBlaze Wolf#6545 14:33, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Picture with missing windows

"Damage to a residential building in Zaporizhzhia following an airstrike on 9 October 2022. Putin has been labeled a war criminal by international experts. National Police of Ukraine - https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=434181438851892&set=pcb.434184062184963 (the whole post) 9-storey residential building in Zaporizhzhia after Russian rocket attack on the city in the night on 9 October 2022" - there is no know weapon who would be able to strip a large building of all windows (including frames) - even not a nuclear. Sorry this seems to be a standard demolition of an old building ... And what is a "international expert" ? (did ALL international experts label Putin as a war criminal ? How many: less than 50% - or a qualified minority ?) I am against any violence - but also against any propaganda and misuse of Wikipedia for hybrid warfare :( 188.167.251.60 (talk) 21:41, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You are not qualified to make judgments about what can or cannot be done to a building by an explosion, that would be WP:OR. Considering that the only edit you have made on Wikipedia is this comment, I'm pretty sure the person trying to conduct hybrid warfare is yourself, just saying. Galebazz (talk) 08:47, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"Russian invasion of Ukraine"

Since there is a risk that "Russian invasion of Ukraine" could be considered to be pushing an anti-Russian point of view, might not 'Russian/Ukrainian conflict' seem more to the point/less problematic? For might not any impression what Wikipedia is supporting a pro-US undermine it as a world-wide media outlet? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.149.166.158 (talk) 07:59, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

See United States invasion of Panama and United States invasion of Grenada, that are so named to be, in fact, factual. This isn't about being pro-US, it's about being factual and using the same language that sources use. There is no care for being "less problematic", only for being accurate Galebazz (talk) 08:42, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No, as Russia invaded Ukraine. That is the objective fact of the matter, and is the most neutral description of the event. There is another article in Russo-Ukrainian War that discusses the broader conflict, however. — Czello (music) 08:44, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
What planet do you live on where Russia didn't invade Ukraine? An armed force entering a country with the intent to subjugate or occupy it is the literal definition of an invasion, to call it anything else would be anything but neutral. TylerBurden (talk) 11:52, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe, but as Russia did invade it seems to me we should ignore such silliness. Slatersteven (talk) 12:04, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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