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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 2001:8003:9100:2c01:110b:5058:3f5a:723b (talk) at 22:46, 4 December 2023 (→‎"Big" refresh: Reply). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Armenia?

Why isn't Armenia on the list while Cyprus is? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ariso Light (talk • contribs) 16:54, 19 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Armenia has no territory in Europe, and it is not sometimes considered in Asia, it is in Asia. It is political part of Europe. For many intercontinental countries, table lists size of the European chunks separately, but lists entire Armenia in Europe. Area in europe should be 0, and total area should be mentioned in the next cell, like other countries.

51.9.122.211 (talk)

Refer to the geographic map of the continent of Europe - Armenia is not in it. It should not be in this list, especially since only tiny portions of both Georgia and Azerbaijan fall within the geographic territory. (How could the entire Armenian territory be included, and only a bit ot northern Georgia?) 190.24.127.189 (talk) 21:34, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This has already been discussed time and time again. All three of the Caucasus states, Turkey, Russia, Cyprus (and sometimes even Kazakhstan) are included due to their geopolitical ties to the continent- irrespective of their geography. This is the standard set across almost all Europe-related articles and they are accompanied by notes highlighting their geographic location in West Asia. Cheers! Archives908 (talk) 01:06, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Area of Kazakhstan

Do we have any sources on the European area of Kazakhstan. This article puts it at about 10% of Kazakhstan’s whole area (https://www.sporcle.com/blog/2019/01/is-kazakhstan-part-of-asia-or-europe/) but I’m sure there’s something from a more official source Thank you for helping Wikipedia. Benica11 (talk). 17:06, 21 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The source in our article states that the area of Kazakhstan's European part is 381,567 sq km, which is about 14% of Kazakhstan’s whole area. Your source mentions 10% of the total area, which is approx. 272,490 sq km. Both sources are incorrect, they probably used another non-main stream definition for the boundary between Asia and Europe. The main stream definition uses the Ural River as the boundary.
Kazakhstan has 14 regions and 4 cities, only 2 regions are transcontinental: West Kazakhstan Region (151,339 sq km) and Atyrau Region (118,631 sq km). These 2 regions have a combined area of 269,970 sq km, which is approx. 10% of Kazakhstan’s total area. However, if you look at the map, only about 50% of these 2 regions are located west of the Ural River. In other words, Kazakhstan only has approx. 5% of its land in Europe, not 10% or 14%. The article Europe has given an area of 148,000 sq km for Kazakhstan's European part in its data table. That figure looks genuine to me, I will replace the incorrect figure in this article with that figure instead. James Ker-Lindsay (talk) 08:22, 1 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Denmark......am I missing something?

The areaq of Denmark (as a European country) is listed as 44,493 sq. kilometers. Then there is a note that measurement includes the faroe islands/Greenlans which is 2.2 million sq kilometers. Obviously the 2.2 million is not included in the 44,493 figure. I changed "measurement" to "Denmark" to indicate that that land is part of Denmerk but not in the 44,493 figure, and my change was reverted. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 03:41, 27 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think there has been a misunderstanding. The note means that the 44,493 figure includes the Faroes, and if Greenland would also be included, the number would be 2.2 million. I guess the revert you mention was mostly a matter of style: We had the wording "Measurement includes ..." for Norway and Portugal, so I guess that's why someone used it for Denmark as well. I think "Measurement includes" was a bit clunky though, so I just changed it to "Including". I hope that clears things up a bit. — Chrisahn (talk) 04:06, 27 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah I misread it and might still mis-read it if I just dropped in. I read it as saying that Greenland was a part of the faroe islands. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 21:29, 27 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, the wording still isn't great. The note for the Denmark entry says: Including the Faroe Islands; 2,210,579 km2 (853,509 sq mi) including Greenland; continental Denmark is 43,094 km2 (16,639 sq mi) in area. The semicolon after Faroe Islands is intended to end that part of the sentence, but I agree it's not very clear. But I can't think of a better way to express everything that's said in that note... :-( — Chrisahn (talk) 23:03, 27 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Armenia

Armenia doesn't belong in this list, since it is strictly in Asia. This list is simply based on geography, and not geopolitics. Cyprus should also be removed for the same reason Ddum5347 (talk) 00:04, 28 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Strong oppose. Read the "Definition" section of the article. It very clearly states that, "Europe and Asia are contiguous with each other; thus, the exact boundary between them is not clearly defined, and often follows historical, political, and cultural definitions, rather than geographical". Cyprus and Armenia may sometimes be considered geopolitically European, despite them being geographically outside Europe's "traditional" boundaries. The article's definition is very clear about this. However, perhaps the wording in the lead can be changed to reflect that better. Archives908 (talk) 00:27, 28 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The Europe article includes both these states respectively. The terminology used there is: "The list below includes all entities falling even partially under any of the various common definitions of Europe, geographic or political". Area and population of European countries and List of sovereign states and dependent territories in Europe yet again include both Armenia and Cyprus with similar definitions. Therefore, I think it would be wise to adopt a similar wording in the lead here in order to align with other articles- for consistency's sake. Archives908 (talk) 01:57, 28 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Agree. Neither Armenia nor Cyprus are in Europe. Both are in Asia. The whole list in inconsequential. I would suggest that all of the territory in the countries listed should be included. For Georgia, only the European part is listed, while for Armenia all the country is listed. If one lists all of Armenia and Cyprus, then clearly it would be much more logical to include all of Georgia and other transcontinental countries, as the latter at least have SOME territory in Europe. Also, Greece is listed as completely European, despite also having Asian parts. The easternmost islands of Greece are in Asia. Oddeivind (talk) 11:35, 9 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Agree. Cannot have all of the area of Armenia and all of Cyprus listed, while having only the European parts of Georgia and Azerbaijan and other transcontinental countries listed - that is inconsistent. If Armenia and Cyprus will be included in the list, their European areas should be listed correctly (i.e. 0) and then their total areas given as a note (as with the transcontinental countries). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.102.153.158 (talk) 00:30, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Image asterisk explanation missing

The asterisk next to Russia in the colourful list of countries image seems to not be explained. Please could someone add? I'm looking at the mobile version. It probably means Russia to Ural but not clear. Thank you. 95.146.56.63 (talk) 14:39, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Asian Russia

I just want to point out the fact that although Siberia forms the core area of Asian Russia, it does not represent the whole Asian part of the country.

According to the mainstream definition, the red line above represents the boundaries between Europe and Asia. It goes along the Turkish Straits, the watershed of the Greater Caucasus, the Ural River, and the watershed of the Ural Mountains.

A careful analysis of the physiographic features suggests that Asian Russia actually consists of three parts:

1. Sochi and the area around Abaytikau (the southern tip of North Ossetia–Alania) near the Georgia–Russia border are located south of the watershed of the Greater Caucasus. These areas are physiographically part of Western Asia.

In the Sochi article, it states that "The whole city is located on the slopes of the Western Caucasus which descend to the Black Sea (i.e. extending "southward") and are cut by the rivers." which further proves that Sochi, although culturally European, is indeed a part of Asia.

2. The southern portion of Orenburg Oblast is located south of the Ural River and north of the Kazakhstan–Russia border. This area is physiographically a part of Central Asia.

3. Siberia is located east of the Ural River and the watershed of the Ural Mountains. This area is physiographically a part of North Asia. James Ker-Lindsay (talk) 14:32, 9 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Gibraltar

Where is Gibraltar in the list?! Aminabzz (talk) 14:48, 14 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Definition and Range, pie chart

The section below the list discussing what Europe is could probably be changed to a link to the Europe page, which already exists in the lead, or perhaps a link to Boundaries between the continents#Asia and Europe, which could also be in the lead.

The graph showing that countries have different sizes could also be removed. This is already covered more precisely by the pie chart, which itself is a little messy. It contains a lot of countries, and yet seems not to contain enough. A better solution would be to have % of Europe as a column in the table, which already exists on other continent articles: List of African countries by area or List of Asian countries by area for example.

I'll remove the Definition and Range sections soon if there are no objections. Wizmut (talk) 00:28, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with the removal of the pie chart, I don't believe it serves much purpose. As for the graph in the range section, it is a little hard to read and if the information is inaccurate then it should be updated or removed. However, I believe the definition section should stay. Over the years there has been a lot of vandalism on this page from IPs removing certain countries (usually Turkey, Russia, Armenia, Cyprus, Azerbaijan, Georgia). The map is a good visual to readers clarifying the definition of what's included on the list. Regards, Archives908 (talk) 02:18, 24 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I have now moved the percentage content into the table itself, and removed the pie chart.
I experimented with trying to move the "Definition" section up so it can be seen alongside the table (which is much skinnier now). But I couldn't figure out a way to do it. Perhaps the template could be changed to allow its width to be reduced, but it's not on my to-do list. Wizmut (talk) 04:28, 12 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wanted to comment on the pie chart issue because of recent disruption - not directed at anyone that's already been using this talk page. A lot of random IPs have been adding the pie chart back - never with any edit summary. Some of them have also been fiddling with the names on the chart. Names keep being added, with smaller and smaller slices. The chart currently has 25 (wonderful) triangles in it, including 8 shades of blue, 3 reds, 4 yellows, and oddly just 2 greens (greens are easiest for the human eye to distinguish).
What use could a pie chart serve here? Russia is a third of Europe. The next few countries are a twentieth each, and it just gets tinier from there. There's already a percentage column in the table itself, which is much easier to use than referring to tiny text and skinny triangles. A pie chart that limited itself to countries that could be distinguished based on size alone would have about 1 entry (Russia alone), or 10 entries (Russia and 9 similar-sized). Neither is very useful.
There is another way to show the relative areas of several adjacent countries - a map. I'm not 100% sure the article needs a map, but a map would be much more useful than a kaleidoscope. Wizmut (talk) 09:14, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
IPs which may be vandals or simply reverting without discussion: 178.121.16.222, 178.121.47.15, 178.121.5.64.
These all originate from Belarus and may be the same person. The latest bit of vandalism added old Soviet names. Wizmut (talk) 09:33, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
To the IP hopper (178.121.16.222) tagged above- please stop your disruptions. If you believe the pie chart should be reinstated, contrary to the established consensus, then the onus is on you to bring your proposal to talk and seek consensus. Edit warring will get you nowhere. Archives908 (talk) 23:04, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Crimea

Which country is Crimea in? Of course it depends on who you ask, but apparently it also depends on what you're asking about. Data from the UN on population takes in data from each country, and Ukraine has said that they can't report any data for Crimea anymore. But Russia has said that they can, so the UN goes with it.

But for area, you don't have to ask if anything has changed if you assume nothing has changed. So the UN reports Crimea as part of Ukraine and leaves it at that.

So, reflecting the sources, the Europe area list and the big area list says Crimea is in Ukraine, while the Europe population list and the big population list say Crimea is in Russia. Similar figures are used on the Ukraine and Russia articles, although the Russia article adds caveats to each number.

I don't know how to resolve this difference. Maybe Crimea is Ukrainian land populated entirely by Russians (probably not). Assuming the situation could continue to change in the future and that there's no deadline, I'm not even advocating a change right now. But if anyone can offer any criteria for how to handle recently annexed land, please do so. Wizmut (talk) 05:57, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Inclusion of Kosovo and other items on the population list

Kosovo was removed from the list without any comment or use of this page. I was thinking of adding it back, but also thought I could add in the territories that are on the Europe population list. Are there any objections? Wizmut (talk) 07:21, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure what happened to Kosovo, but, I don't think including the other territories is necessary. The territories should be included in the national figures already present, if I am not mistaken. Archives908 (talk) 08:52, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Current figures on the list seem to exclude the Crown Dependencies and Gibraltar (which someone above already complained about). They are mentioned in the note but no figure is given for them. Svalbard and the Faroes are included in their respective countries with figures, as are the Azores (autonomous but considered integral). Aland is not mentioned at all, which has the same status as the Azores but is considered separately from Finland by the ISO 3166-1. Some but not all of these could be considered distinct from their sovereigns.
Europe is somewhat unique in that all of the colonizers and colonies are from the same continent, which could make for a tidy list with fewer entries. But for consistency with similar articles, it might make sense to consider them separately. Consider the North American list which has long distinguished territories (albeit on a separate table until recently) owned by any country, whether from the same or other continents. You can see Puerto Rico not being part of the US there. And of course the Asia article distinguishes Hong Kong.
For ease of determining what should go on all these articles, I'd say that they should all follow the policy found by consensus on the big lists. Those are the ones with the most viewers and watchers and therefore likely to gather the most and best opinions on what to include. Not perfect but easier than having a discussion for each entity on each list. Wizmut (talk) 09:35, 26 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Should Kosovo, which is disputed, be included here? 2600:100C:A205:743B:616D:417A:2C83:B014 (talk) 20:47, 6 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. I am working on a renovation of this table which will include it, but feel free to add it in the meantime. Wizmut (talk) 20:54, 6 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Kazakhstan conundrum

I am trying to find a good source for the European area of Kazakhstan. The figure on the table is unsourced and may be original research, depending on how strict we are. Googling it will give you answers between 5 and 15 percent - and they all come with disclaimers. It seems nobody in the world wants to pronounce on this, but we can get a rough estimate as a sanity check. Let's replicate the process that probably got to the current figure and see.

Kazakhstan is divided into regions and further divided into districts. Of these districts, 9 are entirely west of the Ural River, the border used in the Definition section of this article. These total 122,176 km2 or so.[1] Additionally there are 4 districts which are half west and half east of the Ural... roughly... ish. The total of these four is 52,638 km2 - and if you add 122,176 km2 to half of 52,638 km2, you get 148,495, which resembles the figure in the table now.

The range of possible values if you were entirely include or entirely exclude the 4 districts straddling the border would be between 4.5 to 6.4 percent of all Kazakhstan, so a lot of the higher estimates you find with Google don't fit with the definition in the article at all. But the table can't use error bars; it has to give a point estimate.

The number currently in the article is probably correct, involves a little bit of math, and I think the result is nice and neat. But I'm still on the fence as to whether it's original research. Maybe reducing the sig figs to make it 150,000 would be more palatable. Wizmut (talk) 00:16, 27 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment We don't have a proper source for that. I doubt we would find one either. I have done some research on this subject myself, it seems to me that no one in the world cares about the area of European Kazakhstan.
Your calculation is very good, there is another user who has done a similar calculation in an earlier discussion. Both your and his calculations actually double confirmed that whoever came up with the original figure, his figure is genuine. All other so-called sourced figures are either incorrect or based on a non-standard Asia-Europe border which gives a bigger portion of Kazakhstan in Europe.
If possible, could you do a similar calculation for the areas of European Azerbaijan and European Georgia too? Much appreciated. 58.160.77.124 (talk) 06:54, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://www.citypopulation.de/en/kazakhstan/admin/

Including area outside the European continent?

The list of European countries by area could be improved by including the whole country area. When sorting the countries by size, the list is very unhelpful.

This is an example of what I mean:

Rank State Area Notes
(km2) (sq mi)
40  Azerbaijan* 6,960 2,690 86,600 km2 (33,400 sq mi) when including Asian territory
41  Georgia* 2,642 1,020 69,700 km2 (26,900 sq mi) when including Asian territory
Total 9,725,367 3,754,985

The current system does not make sense as the list is on how big the European countries are, NOT how big the country's area inside Europe is.

I suggest swapping the notes and area:

Rank State Area Notes
(km2) (sq mi)
rank  Azerbaijan* 86,600 33,400 6,960 km2 (2,690 sq mi) when excluding Asian territory
rank  Georgia* 69,700 26,900 2,642 km2 (1,020 sq mi) when excluding Asian territory
Total new total new total

Does anyone have any comments or constructive criticism? Pinecone23 (talk) 22:42, 10 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This would make Kazakhstan the second-largest European country by area if using total area.
Perhaps there could be a column named "Europe area" and "Total area". But that would be a lot of repeat numbers, and there's already two numbers for each country (km2 and mi2).
The population article has long distinguished transcontinental countries to warn readers that the data can't be defined in just one way. Hopefully all these continent-wise lists can agree on the best way to announce this fact. Wizmut (talk) 23:01, 10 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think I see what you mean; however, I do think that the full area of the country would best represent the intended content of the page.
Kazakhstan is, after all, the second-largest European country by area (which is the name of the page).
Would adding the excluded total be preferable? Like something like this:
Rank State Area Notes
(km2) (sq mi)
rank  Azerbaijan* 86,600 33,400 6,960 km2 (2,690 sq mi) when excluding Asian territory
rank  Georgia* 69,700 26,900 2,642 km2 (1,020 sq mi) when excluding Asian territory
Total new total new total 9,725,367km2 (3,754,985sq mi)
Pinecone23 (talk) 23:17, 10 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Should the other lists follow this? The US has Hawaii in Oceania, which in some sense makes it the largest country in Oceania. I'm not sure that's the data people are looking for when they visit a list like this.
Current method isn't perfect either but it may be better. Wizmut (talk) 00:59, 11 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think the list is fine as is. I would suggest avoiding over analyzing and overly complicating these details. Archives908 (talk) 17:48, 13 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
STRONG OPPOSE If we adopt this format, Europe will be nearly 25,000,000 sq km. What is the point of adding the Asian territories of those transcontinental countries? Siberia alone is bigger than the whole of Europe. 2001:8003:9100:2C01:E51D:8114:E824:4CCF (talk) 02:34, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Is there a source for the areas of European Azerbaijan and European Georgia? Are these figures genuine? 58.160.77.124 (talk) 06:48, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure what the Georgia area could have come from. It has little area on the northern side of the Greater Caucasus - perhaps none.
The Azerbaijan area is much closer to the mark. The Guba-Khachmaz Economic Region is generally north of the Greater Caucasus and everything else is generally south/southwest. That province has an area of 6,960 km2.
Anyway, I recently finished a refresh of Area and population of European countries, which focuses on population density, but have yet to port over all the little improvements to this list. I can put it on my to do list. Wizmut (talk) 09:36, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Portugal

Something odd happens with Portugal. In the current version of the table the European part of the country has 92,225 sq. km and when including the Azores and Madeira the area gets smaller – 91,568 sq. km, which cannot be true. 2dk (talk) 22:54, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It is wrong. 2001:8003:9100:2C01:E51D:8114:E824:4CCF (talk) 02:29, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Russia's annexations of Ukraine

@Hoborex made an interesting edit and I thought it deserved some mention here. The current note on most lists was written before 2022, so there's no mention of the most recent annexations of Ukrainian provinces by Russia.

This is different issue than changing which provinces are said to "belong" to either country, which would require most reliable sources to note any such change, along with a discussion here. Apologies to Hoborex for mistaking which issue he was taking up.

I noted on another talk page, so I'll note here, that statistics for Ukraine's area tend to reflect pre-2014 (CIA and UN agree, more or less), while population statistics tend to reflect post-2022 (the UN asks Russia what the answer is). So if you see slightly different treatment of Russia/Ukraine on different lists, that's why. Wizmut (talk) 23:20, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Until Ukraine formally cedes those territories to Russia, they should count as parts of Ukraine. 2001:8003:9100:2C01:E51D:8114:E824:4CCF (talk) 02:26, 2 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"Big" refresh

I put up a refresh of the whole table based on the same work that I recently did on the Europe density table. And, well, most of the figures didn't really change, but all of the oddball ones should have better notes and sources. The transcontinentals and partially recognized countries, you see.

This list now includes territories / dependencies, which puts it in line with the Europe population table and most other continent area tables. I also replaced the odd Georgia figure with the full area figure in parentheses and italics, along with a note indicating its uncertain Europe status.

If you see any errors, please note them here. If I made a change wrongly or badly, also note that here. Or if there's any further improvement you want to suggest, it should be possible to accommodate. Cheers. Wizmut (talk) 03:04, 4 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Since the original figures for European Kazakhstan and European Azerbaijan are pretty accurate, I reckon we should keep European Georgia's area (2,642 sq km) too. It looks quite accurate as well. 2001:8003:9100:2C01:110B:5058:3F5A:723B (talk) 05:41, 4 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Georgia is entirely south of the Greater Caucasus and the figure that used to be there had no source. I don't know how the 2600 could be arrived at, and it's wrong according to the most common definition of Europe's borders. See List_of_European_countries_by_area#Definition Wizmut (talk) 05:54, 4 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure how or where that figure came from either. As you know Wizmut, confirming Georgia's precise territorial figures within geographical Europe is very difficult. However, lets not forget that Abkhazia (a breakaway state recognized as part of Georgia) is mostly, if not entirely within geographical Europe. Archives908 (talk) 16:27, 4 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Is it? The mountains are to its north/northeast. The west/northwestern tip is a little ambiguous, but to me it looks like it's almost entirely on the same side of the Greater Caucasus as Georgia. Wizmut (talk) 21:04, 4 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If you look at the most common boundaries of Europe with Asia, at least two definitions run the division directly through Abkhazia, with three other definitions placing it entirely in Europe. If we go by the more probable (and likely) definition, it would place at least some of its territory north west and perhaps north of the Caucasus mountains, so by extension, Georgia would be transcontinental (even if just by the slightest percentage). Again, its very hard to determine the exact percentage as information online is surprisingly quite limited. But, the established consensus across Wikipedia and over at Georgia's main article appears to be that the country is transcontinental. Please have a read at List of transcontinental countries#Asia and Europe, where it states that around 5% of the country's total territory is in Europe. There's sources available there also. It appears that by the most common modern convention, in use since 1850, would indeed place a sliver of Abkhazia in Europe. Archives908 (talk) 21:32, 4 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Georgia indeed has a small portion of its land in Europe. Please check the map (gathered from your link) below:

2001:8003:9100:2C01:110B:5058:3F5A:723B (talk) 22:46, 4 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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