Talk:Same-sex marriage

Nepal II

Is SSM actually legal now in Nepal? The SC requires the govt to "register" SSM. However, the Dutch Caribbean countries have to register Dutch SSM, but we don't count them as SSM states. Several Eastern European countries also register SSM for e.g. immigration purposes, but don't have marriage equality.

Also, will the govt actually comply? "The Supreme Court has given the opponents of same-sex marriage 15 days to provide a written reply on the matter."[1]

I think it might be too early to state that Nepal has SSM. — kwami (talk) 07:17, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

I agree. Also, some sources say "separate" and "temporary" registration. What does that even mean? It's also shocking to me that a single person can decide the fate of an entire country. We should have waited but everyone is so excited like last time with Taiwan. Cyanmax (talk) 12:46, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

He did not decide the fate of the country. He interpreted the constitution where he was asked to as is his job. If you did not want SSM, you had the opportunity to explicitly say so in the draft constitution and convince 2/3rd of parliament. Now that SC has said SSM should be legal, you still have the chance to undo it by amending the constitution if you can gather the 2/3rd majority. Short of that, the government has no recourse now but to comply. They can dilly dally with it but not for long. Usedtobecool ☎️ 02:45, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

It seems like marriage equality to me. According to Himalayan Times's news article, "They will have the same rights as heterosexual marriage couples. Parliament may take a while to pass the marriage equality law, but this order gives a very practical solution to members of sexual and gender minority communities who wish to register their marriage legally.". It appears that the court has given a temporary measure to provide a legal basis for same-sex marriage until the Parliament establishes the law. (But I'm not sure if there is a possibility that the Nepalese government would or could choose to establish the law based on civil unions.)

And there is a passage saying "More than 15 years ago, the Supreme Court issued directive order to amend or scrap all discriminatory laws and to pass same-sex marriage law based upon a report from a study committee The committee submitted a report 8 years ago recommending full marriage.". Therefore, the Court Judgment was established 15 years ago, but the government has chosen to ignore or delay its implementation.

Still, it would be best if someone knows the situations in Nepal could confirm its legal status.--渡鴉之王 (talk) 13:31, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

See Blue Diamond Society Instragram page, whose president was one of the applicants in the court case. 2804:7F0:BCC1:1171:1C74:A0B3:7860:2208 (talk) 14:22, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

"The Supreme Court issued the order on Wednesday allowing for the TEMPORARY registration of marriages for same-sex couples."

"The court also ordered the government to establish a SEPARATE register of marriages for same-sex couples."

What does "temporary" and "separate" mean?

Sources:

1. https://thediplomat.com/2023/06/in-first-nepals-supreme-court-allows-registration-of-same-sex-marriages/

2. https://apnews.com/article/nepal-lgbtq-samesex-marriage-supreme-court-1bc6d1ee2eecf83f7707915bdd7579e7 Cyanmax (talk) 16:49, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

I believe "temporary" means this is an injunction that will be in force until the govt passes the appropriate laws. Then those laws will take over and the injunction will no longer apply.

I don't know about "separate". Perhaps it's so the couples can be kept track of until the law is passed, so that they're made properly legal when it is, or so that they can prove that they're legally married until it is. We really need a RS to interpret this for us so we don't engage in OR and get it wrong. Gurung and Pant in the Himalayan article seem confident that SSM is now legal. Is this sufficient RS? One says, "now we can easily tackle all the complications on our own with the help of our partner," and the other, "the SC interim order states that the petitioner can easily get married as soon as the court reopens after tomorrow's public holiday." I suppose this will resolve itself in a few days -- either we'll start getting news reports that couples are getting married or, at the least, we'll have silence, which probably would mean that they can't. — kwami (talk) 19:08, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

New RS: https://www.thepinknews.com/2023/06/30/nepal-supreme-court-same-sex-marriage/ Cyanmax (talk) 15:31, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

"A significant step towards marriage equality ... While same-sex marriage is still not yet fully legal in Nepal ... Parliament may take a while to pass the marriage equality law, but this order gives a practical solution to members of the sexual and gender minority communities who wish to register their marriage legally. ... If Nepal fully legalises same-sex marriage, it will become the second country in Asia to do so."

So I'm still not sure what to do. It sounds like SSM is now de facto legal. Is this equivalent to CUs in those countries where a CU provides all the rights of marriage? Should we make Nepal light blue on the map? On the other hand, it sounds like several Mexican states, after they started issuing marriage certificates because of a court or gubernatorial order but before they updated the law. We continue to color those states dark blue despite SSM not being fully legal. — kwami (talk) 20:10, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

[2] The Supreme Court has been considering a petition on the issue filed by gay right activists and on Wednesday it issued an interim order allowing for same-sex couples to register their marriages pending a final verdict. ... [video: This arrangement stands until a final verdict is delivered by the court.] ... Since [2007], some same-sex couples have held unofficial weddings. ... Maya Gurung ... said that being able to officially register a marriage would help overcome a range of difficulties. "We will now approach the authorities to formally register our marriage. ... It may take some time for this, though.” — kwami (talk) 01:59, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

It's probably a literal register that will have to be literally separate. The register for SSM will need more fields. For one, in Nepal, all sexual minorities legally have the option of only one non-traditional category "third gender". So, this new register, I assume, will also be for all sexual minorities. It will, I assume, have records of each spouse's assignment at birth, gender and sexual orientation, if nothing more, fields that would be absent from the current register that they use. Usedtobecool ☎️ 02:56, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

The question for us though is what rights are conveyed. Many of these couples have already married, they're just not recognized by the state and had no rights. Now the state will recognize them, but recognize them as what? Are they fully married under the law, with all the rights, privileges and duties of other married couples, such as inheritance and the adoption of children? Or is it more a matter of discrimination protection, ability to cohabit, and protection against forced marriage, because they have a marriage on file, even if it doesn't qualify as a 'marriage' for all purposes?

BTW, I like the map on that video, where SSM was listed in various countries as 'recognized', 'not recognized' and 'not legal'. So India is 'not recognized' but Pakistan is 'not legal'. That is, you can legally marry in a country like India, even if it's purely symbolic, but not in Pakistan. That's a distinction I think we might want to make on our map. 'Not legal' (or 'illegal') might include where SSM is unconstitutional plus countries where homosexuality itself is illegal, but not sure what else. — kwami (talk) 03:49, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

What happened here is, the marriages were not being registered officially because the Civil Code said a marriage is when a man and woman accept each other as husband and wife. The SC decided that that was unconstitutional because the constitution guarantees everyone the right to equality and the right to marriage. That's all that's happened. So, the default right now is that, yes, they get equal marriage rights as everybody. The nuances will come in as actual rights are sought after. Other laws and provisions which use the wordings of "man" and "woman", "husband" and "wife", etc, will prevent them from being applicable to LGBT... couples. They will go to court. Court will ask the government and parliament to amend those provisions. I reckon that's when these conversations about nuances and details will actually start. Until now, there has been no such debate in the political, social or religious spheres. The activists and courts have been expanding LGBT rights on the back of general human rights gains that have occurred in the past decades. Usedtobecool ☎️ 04:49, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

In other words, it sounds like the situation in Mexico in the more recalcitrant states. We marked them as having SSM when the SC rulings were handed down, so I suppose we should continue to do the same here. If we're wrong, that will hopefully be cleared up in a few weeks. — kwami (talk) 04:53, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Looks like same sex marriage can actually occur and are about to occur in Nepal if we follow the story I post below unless I am understanding something wrong. https://pahichan.com/2023/07/03/17124/ --Allancalderini12 (talk) 05:53, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Monday is a holiday, so we should probably have a better idea mid-week. I'm most interested in whether couples who were not plaintiffs in the SC case can access marriage equitably. I could certainly see recalcitrant officials acknowledging that they must record the marriages of those couples the SC directly instructed them to, but damned if they'll do the same for anyone else. Maybe not in Nepal, but I could see that happening in parts of the US and Mexico. — kwami (talk) 05:57, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

That story does support the interpretation of "temporary" as referring to the court order (as a bridging mechanism in effect only until the proper laws are passed) and not to the marriages. — kwami (talk) 06:03, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps more likely that 'temporary' means an interim order until the full court rules. If so, presumabl the final ruling is expected to be in favor, but we really need RS analysis. — kwami (talk) 08:55, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Another recent source discussed at Template_talk:Same-sex_unions#Nepal, though it still doesn't define what "register" means. — kwami (talk) 05:56, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

It seems like the court waits for response from the government.

Source: https://www.aninews.in/news/world/asia/nepal-apex-court-issues-interim-order-to-temporarily-register-same-sex-marriages20230629002842/ Cyanmax (talk) 07:18, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

That claims the marriages themselves are temporary. I wonder if that's OR on the reporter's part.

Can't tell if they've given the govt 15 days to say how they'll comply, to lodge objections, or something else. — kwami (talk) 08:53, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

Hopefully we'll have an answer by the time the government is mandated to respond. The confusion really has me left in anticipation lol. Has any case of same-sex unions being legal or not been this confusing before? I would guess just Bolivia and Latvia. This South China article seems to recognize it as the second country in Asia to legalize it, in a unrelated article.

https://www.scmp.com/news/asia/south-asia/article/3226776/india-gay-marriage-case-supreme-court-could-fuel-gold-rush-nations-wedding-industry SunnyWinx (talk) 22:17, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

https://www.deccanherald.com/international/world-news-politics/kathmandu-court-rejects-marriage-registration-application-of-gay-couple-1236705.html According to the news, "The Kathmandu District Court on Thursday rejected a marriage registration application filed by a gay couple despite the Supreme Court legalising same-sex marriages in Nepal." It seems there is still some way to go before same-sex marriage can be implemented in Nepal. --渡鴉之王 (talk) 16:43, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. No matter how many sources parrot the claim that Nepal has SSM, until people can actually get married, it doesn't. — kwami (talk) 18:44, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

I think the situation is that the Supreme Court did indeed order the legalization of same-sex marriage in Nepal, or something similar, but the government's stance remains ambiguous. It is unclear whether other courts would also refuse if one court does, or what would happen if other courts accept. There is also a news article in Himalayan Times saying "The interim order also states that if there is a basis or reason why the order should not be issued, a written response must be submitted through the Attorney General's Office within 15 days". So, what's the position of the Nepalese government, I wonder? https://thehimalayantimes.com/kathmandu/kdc-refuses-to-register-same-sex-marriage-despite-apex-court-order --渡鴉之王 (talk) 10:27, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

Has anyone attempted to make contact with Sunil Babu Pant or other associated parties? It has been almost a week since the government was supposed to submit a response but we quite literally have no information. Has no couples attempted to try and register their marriages at another district court either? It's so strange to me that there hasn't been more urgency or more exhaustion of any resources that are available. SunnyWinx (talk) 02:53, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

There's this [3] article from today's Himalayan Times. — kwami (talk) 04:26, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

As I said above, the SC ordered it but every procedure that will need to be used to enforce it will have to be rewritten to include LGBT+ and no one is in a hurry to do it, since this has not come off political will. Activists and SC have been doing this, while we don't even know what the positions are of major political figures and organisations. It will take a lot of time for them to even acknowledge these issues need addressing. I am betting no one wants to take a firm position either way for as long as they can. The bureaucrats are not going to chuck their instruction manual just because they read news articles about the supreme court decision, while they've got no new instructions through the official channels. Usedtobecool ☎️ 05:27, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

References

Typo?

"The first same-sex couple to be married legally in modern times were Michael McConnell and Jack Baker in 1971, in Hennepin County, Minnesota."

I don't think "1971" is the correct year, it doesn't fit with the timeline discussed in the surrounding text. The caption under the figure next to it says "2015". 212.120.117.102 (talk) 22:38, 11 July 2023 (UTC)

Read the source. — kwami (talk) 18:48, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Nepal rejects SSM

[4] It appears we may have gotten a little excited. Same-sex couples still can't get married in Nepal it seems. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Minecraft69 (talk • contribs) 14:06, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Peru

There was a ruling today that seems significant: https://www.nbcnews.com/nbc-out/out-news/peruvian-court-opens-door-legally-recognize-sex-couples-rcna95930

I can't tell from this article how widely it applies? Jdcooper (talk) 20:55, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Monaco

Seems there's a separate article advising SSM legislation is "pending" in Monaco - Could Monaco be added to the list of countries in this main article, where SSM legislation is pending - together with Czech Republic, Greece, Liechtenstein etc? Paul leonelli (talk) 06:19, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Source? — kwami (talk) 06:51, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

LGBT rights by country or territory article - it says same sex marriage is "proposed" in Monaco - though doesn't back this up with further info. If that's not correct then the other article mentioned should be amended to have "proposed" removed Paul leonelli (talk) 07:09, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Is there a source? LGBT rights in Monaco says nothing about that. — kwami (talk) 07:13, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

If you look in the table under same sex marriage, in that article, it says "proposed" for Monaco! Please look at the table. If that's not correct it needs removing Paul leonelli (talk) 07:29, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 November 2023

Leave the sentence out of the paragraph. It is misleading. It is off the topic of marriage. It lists only the negative side while not listing that the "act itself" is "legal" in xyz countries only illegal in some xyz. Therefore is negatively biased and not accurate and balanced. 47.204.221.228 (talk) 18:21, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Leave which sentence out of which paragraph? Cannolis (talk) 18:32, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Lastest poll in some countries

the lastest pew research center poll released in September 2023 found that 17% in Malaysia, 57% in Cambodia and 45% in Singapore support same-sex marriage. It's a big increase in those conservative countries. Please add this information to the article.

https://www.malaymail.com/news/malaysia/2023/09/12/pew-survey-eight-in-10-malaysians-oppose-same-sex-marriage-local-buddhists-most-supportive/90352 113.185.42.54 (talk) 20:00, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

Please add this information to the article. Springtime95 (talk) 13:33, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request

In the lead paragraph, "34 countries that have a total population of more than 1 billion people" reads as if all 34 countries have over 1 billion people each. The obvious fix is to change "that have" to ", with". --142.112.221.156 (talk) 05:15, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

• Done, thanks! Jdcooper (talk) 00:41, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected contradiction

The article names two different counties as where Jack Baker and Michael McConnell got married. (Their article says they went to another county than the one where they lived to get a marriage license, but I don't think it makes it clear where the wedding actually took place.) Please fix it or add a {{contradict-self}} tag. --142.112.221.156 (talk) 05:24, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

Nepal date

I don't understand why we put 29 November as the date for Nepal instead of 28 June. The couple tried it and were refused in one city office, then tried later in a different city whose office accepted it. There's no indication they wouldn't have gotten their marriage certificate early on at that second office, it's not like a legal decision was made in between. For example, if a woman was refused an abortion shortly after it was made legal, and initially got it refused at a clinic, then finally found a good one later on, we wouldn't use the date of that second attempt as the date abortion was legalised in that country. We would use the legal one. We should use 28 June for Nepal. What do you think? Aréat (talk) 16:08, 5 December 2023 (UTC)

• There was confusion and legal uncertainty between those dates, and no-one getting married. Then, as the lead to Recognition of same-sex unions in Nepal states: "In the last week of November 2023, the Ministry of Home Affairs allowed local administration offices to begin registering same-sex marriages.". So there was a legal decision, or at least a decision to stop postponing a legal decision. Jdcooper (talk) 17:12, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
  • If the law needs a executive order to become effective, then yes the date should be the November one. But if legally the law doesn't need that executive order, but the Minister had to promulge one because the administration didn't applied the law as it should, then it should be the date in June (even if it wasn't technically possible because of the administration, it was by law), but we should of course explain it with details on the country's section and article. Martin m159 (talk) 08:05, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

    What "law" are you talking about? Courts cannot make laws, it's the responsibility of the legislature. That's what India's Supreme Court said. It's just an interim order of a single judge bench and the full bench of the Supreme Court is yet to start a final hearing on the matter. It is possible that the interim order can be scrapped while passing the final verdict. Anyway, appealing to the courts is not the best way to get marriage equality. It violates the doctrine of separation of powers and could lead to unforeseeable consequences. Cyanmax (talk) 10:29, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

It says before the table, "Dates are when marriages between same-sex couples began to be officially certified,..." Exactly by that definition, 29 Nov is the correct date. As for "legal" legal, that has not happened yet. Court said "Denying marriage is unconstitutional, make the laws constitution compliant, and however long that takes, because people shouldn't be denied rights for any length of time, set up a different register to register non conventional marriages in the meantime". The government finally said, "yeah, ok", and began registering marriages but it's not clear when the laws will be passed, it's not clear if they are even trying. Usedtobecool ☎️ 10:46, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

I've removed Nepal, per discussion at that article and news sources that marriage is not yet enacted. One couple was able to register their marriage after direct intervention of the SC, but even then they had trouble finding a govt office that would file the paperwork. Other couples haven't been able to marry. AFICT, supporting legislation hasn't been introduced, so it's probably going to be a while, possibly years, before there is SSM in Nepal without individual court rulings. — kwami (talk) 04:16, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

Vatican

Provocative consideration: could we argue that the Pope's decision to change clergy regulation and authorise blessings of same-sex couples is equivalent to some light form of recognition (eg. unregistered cohabitation)? Clearly, we are talking about religious acts, sacraments. But the Vatican City is a theocratic state, has no form of marriage but religious marriage. One could argue that: blessings without specific lithurgy = unregistered cohabitation; similar lithurgy but distinct from marriage = civil unions; same lithurgy as opposite-sex marriage = same-sex marriage. Thoughts? Finedelledanze (talk) 06:49, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

In my opinion, no. There has never been any prohibition on giving blessings to prostitutes, thieves, murderers on death row, or rapists. This just brings same-sex couples into the same fold as other sinners whose right to be blessed, afaik, has never been challenged. That said, there are some regulations about who can receive various sacraments, such as the Eucharist, or holy orders that are more restrictive. I make no claim that my opinion matches that of the Vatican, or the DDF, and I bet plenty of bishops are boiling over the Pope's remarks. Mathglot (talk) 09:45, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Persistent sock targeting this article

There is a persistent sock who has been targeting this article since at least February 2023. Their M.O. is to create new socks to make edits to this article that downplay the support of same-sex marriage.

Examples:

• Saying scientific studies that support same-sex marriage are merely "claims" [5][6]
• Commenting out the statement that "The most prominent supporters of same-sex marriage are the world's major medical and scientific communities etc..." [7][8].

Accounts involved are: User:Sotavino, User:Atquaman, User:Abisaku, User:SG413K, and most recently, User:Ratterbat.

I'm not sure how to stop these socks, other than reverting their edits and reporting them to WP:SPI each time a new one appears. Perhaps pending changes protection would work? Bennv123 (talk) 04:24, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Eurobarometer's latest poll

the latest eurobarometer in december 2023 showed an increase in support for same-sex in EU countries. Please add this to the article:

https://europa.eu/eurobarometer/surveys/detail/2972 Springtime95 (talk) 14:17, 9 January 2024 (UTC)