Talk:Bucha massacre
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Redaction
With apologies to all who responded to the IP's accusations, I've redacted the thread concerning Lyudmyla Denisova as a BLP violation. From my reading of sources, including the Newsweek article cited by the IP, the issues surrounding Denisova have to do with her handling and emphasis of certain atrocities along with criticism of her administration of reporting and evacuation, and not what the IP alleges are fabrications. I've blocked the IP with no talkpage access, since they've repeated the defamation on their talkpage. A reminder - editors are expected to adhere to BLP policies everywhere. Acroterion (talk) 23:31, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
- Denisova is significant because of the bald admission of exaggeration of fake atrocity. She was fired for it only after being caught. That's significant in context of this article as it shows propaganda practices. As the article deals up front with some of those by Russia (bald denials without details, using a few dubious cases to dismiss all charges etc) it is fair to deal with contemporary Ukraine methods of propaganda at about the same priority. 156.34.165.234 (talk) 22:06, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
- Maybe, but the IP was making frank accusations without any support, which violated BLP. And two wrings don't make a right, or provide a reason to ignore Wikipedia policy. Acroterion (talk) 22:19, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 13 March 2023
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Add the following: Following the Russian withdrawal the Ukrainian armed force took control of the town for 10 days or so to weed out "collaborators". After this the journalists were allowed in and the bodies were shown leading to suggestions that the Ukrainians were responsible for the massacre. 203.214.159.8 (talk) 05:58, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
- Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 10:51, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
- The primary sources for this are clear and unrefuted but no English language press seems to cover them. Coverage seems to stop almost dead before the end of April 2022 after a flood of articles calling USSR era flechette ammo "Russian", which is misleading.
- As it stands this article is profoundly POV and does not deal seriously with the actual credible response to these charges: that at least some of the "73 civilians" provably killed during the RU occupation were actually combatants out of uniform, that the flechette ammo was in use only by Ukraine forces, that there was a "cleansing" operation that was announced but oddly no "saboteurs" were arrested. There is no final report from coroners and ICC charges Putin with some other charge but after 15 months nothing regarding Bucha at all. 156.34.165.234 (talk) 21:42, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
- 'After this'? I suggest reading the article. Nicodene (talk) 20:44, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
Casualties update
There are 501 names on memorial plaques - https://meduza.io/short/2023/07/02/v-buche-otkryli-installyatsiyu-v-pamyat-o-zhitelyah-ubityh-vo-vremya-rossiyskoy-okkupatsii-fotografiya - a volunteer needed to please update lead and intro table with new figure. Manyareasexpert (talk) 20:47, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
A Telegraph documentary (http youtu.be IrGZ66uKcl0) covers the early occupation. Given the lack of any final forensics report, which strongly suggests a result not well matching someone's narrative... It's an important source for neutrality since it shows and admits explicitly that:
- Some early casualties are non uniformed combatants, not civilians
- Others are captured and then later seem to be dead (out of uniform combatants have no PoW rights, are neither PoW nor civilian)
- There are definitely some line of fire deaths attributable to over reactions but also clearly documented executions and tortures.
- There seems to be absolutely no mention at all of the late stage deaths from flechettes and alleged executions as Ukraine troops enter, despite the documentary dealing in such detail with the early deaths. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 156.34.165.234 (talk) 21:54, 23 July 2023 (UTC)
GA Review
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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- This review is transcluded from Talk:Bucha massacre/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.
Reviewer: Golden (talk · contribs) 21:31, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
I'll review this article. — Golden talk 21:31, 31 August 2023 (UTC)
Lead & Infobox
Eyewitness accounts from residents of Bucha said that the Russian Armed Forces carried out the killings.
- I would add "Additionally" at the beginning of this sentence to better integrate it with the previous sentence.- Move link for "summary executions" to its first mention.
Background
moved south towards Kyiv.
-> "moved south towards the city" to avoid repeating Kyiv twice in the same sentence.- Wikilink Bucha here.
Reports
men, women, and children
- You use an Oxford comma in this instance, but not in many others. I assume that you prefer not to use the Oxford comma, so I won't include any points about where to insert them. If my assumption is incorrect, please let me know.- Wikilink first instance of mass grave.
- Done – Both points addressed. Dhtwiki (talk) 06:13, 9 September 2023 (UTC)
- The "After the Russian withdrawal" section appears disorganised. It seems as though you included as many facts about the bodies as possible without following a clear structure. I suggest organising the information in a more structured manner, such as by first discussing the discovery of the bodies (including who first reported them), followed by the state of the bodies, and finally, the media's assessment.
related that drunken Russian soldiers told them of carrying out sadistic acts against Ukrainians.
- Does "related" have such a meaning as a verb? It's my first time coming across it. If yes, keep that, if not, rewrite the sentence like this: "Villagers who were asked to help identify a beheaded body reported that drunken Russian soldiers had told them about carrying out sadistic acts against Ukrainians."- I suggest removing the "Use of flechettes" subsection since it is only three sentences long. The information in this subsection could be incorporated into the "After the Russian withdrawal" subsection.
Some of them had no light or electricity for weeks, using candles for heating water and cooking. They came out of hiding only when it was clear the Russians had left, welcoming the arrival of Ukrainian troops.
- I believe this information would be more relevant to the article on the Battle of Bucha, as it does not directly pertain to the massacre itself. However, this is just a suggestion and is optional.
Not done – Previous four points not yet addressed. Dhtwiki (talk) 06:13, 9 September 2023 (UTC)- Done – These points have been addressed. Dhtwiki (talk) 09:50, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
- You've wikilinked BBC and The Guardian in this section already, so remove the second links.
- I feel that the majority of the information in the "Satellite images" subsection would be better placed in the "Russian response" section, where it could be used to refute Russian claims.
- The "Geographic distribution" subsection is unnecessary.
Not done – Previous two points not yet addressed. Dhtwiki (talk) 06:13, 9 September 2023 (UTC)- Done – Although "Satellite images" text has yet to be properly integrated into its new section. Dhtwiki (talk) 09:50, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
Reported death count
- This section is ambiguous about whether it refers to the deaths in the Bucha region or in Bucha town only. It would be better to specify the scope of the article and the section. Is the article focused on the massacre that occurred in the town of Bucha, or does it also cover the killings that took place in the surrounding area?
- Done – I've rearranged the section to better distinguish purely urban from regional death tolls. Dhtwiki (talk) 08:33, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
Russian units involved
- Again, this section has structural issues. After reading the entire section, it is still unclear to me which units were responsible for the massacre. Many different units are mentioned, each sourced from different references. It would be better to organize the information into one or two paragraphs, rather than presenting each source separately.
- Briefly introduce Vladimir Putin (e.g., "Russian President Vladimir Putin").
- Done – Rearranged section to better consolidate mentions of Russian units and separating such mentions from Ukrainian intentions and foreign intelligence activity. I did not see where mention of Putin was necessary. Dhtwiki (talk) 08:57, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
Investigations
into events in Bucha
-> "into the events in Bucha" since we're referring to specific events.with the area treated as a crime scene
- Do we know how large this area was? As in, did it cover the entirety of Bucha or only places where bodies were found?
- Done – I have removed text in question, as it's not supported by proximate citation. Dhtwiki (talk) 22:55, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
Reactions
Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba
- You've already introduced Kuleba earlier. Simply "Kuleba" or "Dmytro Kuleba" is enough here.- Ditto for Putin.
- Wikilink and briefly introduce Zelenskyy since this appears to be the first time we're mentioning him.
to show reporters and the world the reported atrocities in Bucha.
- There's some editoralising here. Did Zelenskyy say he visited the area with reporters to "show them and the world the atrocities in Bucha"?Russian forces used tanks to crush Ukrainian civilians in cars
- This should also be in quotes.- Michel is the president of the European Council, not
EU Council
. Also link, European Council. - Link NATO.
- There is no need to link the UN Security Council here since it has already been linked earlier in the article. Although it is allowed to duplicate the link in each section, since the UNSC was mentioned earlier in this section without being linked, there is no need to link it where it is currently linked.
President Zelenskyy
- Simply using "Zelenskyy" is sufficient. This applies to all instances of "President Zelenskyy" in the article, except for the first mention of Zelenskyy.- Wikilink European Commission.
orchestrated by British operatives in order to introduce new sanctions against Russia
- This should be a quote.- Briefly introduce Josep Borrell.
- Done – Have made changes accordingly, although I wasn't able to confirm "Russian forces..." and "orchestrated..." quotes. Dhtwiki (talk) 23:42, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
Russian response and denial
- Give a brief description of Bellingcat.
- No need to introduce Putin and Lukashenko again.
- Merge the paragraphs about Nebenzya.
Sergei Klokov, a driver for Moscow's police headquarters, who is originally from Bucha, was arrested after he told colleagues what he had heard from his father and Ukrainian family friends about the Russian invasion. Among Klokov's alleged crimes was saying that Russian soldiers were killing Ukrainian civilians.
- This doesn't explicitly mention Bucha, so I'd remove it.
- Done – Have made changes according to these comments. Dhtwiki (talk) 23:54, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
References
- Spot-checked the following references: #1, 11, 26, 42, 50, 52, 76, 82, 92, 112, 119, 143, 187b
- Reference #26 does not mention "fake news".
- The references are reliable, except for reference #160 of Telesur. However, since it is used as a primary source, it can be given a pass.
- Done – I've changed the wording supported by ref. #26, to "staged performance". Dhtwiki (talk) 05:16, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
General comments
- I will try to review the rest tomorrow. I apologise for the delay. — Golden talk 19:06, 6 September 2023 (UTC)
- Images are relevant and all are free except commons:File:Bucha civilians massacred by Russian soldiers, c. April 2022 - 01.jpg, which currently seems to be undergoing a deletion discussion.
- Earwig's detector gives 40% but it's mostly quotes, so that's a pass.
- Overall, I believe the article is in good shape, but it requires some work, particularly in its structure, to become a GA. I apologise again for reviewing this late and look forward to seeing your changes. — Golden talk 22:51, 8 September 2023 (UTC)
- @Dhtwiki or TimothyBlue: It's been a week since the last reply here. Would you like an extension to thoroughly review all the points? — Golden talk 20:50, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
- An extension is evidently necessary, if this is to progress in this round. I had been planning to do some more editing, but I'm also copy-editing other articles. Some of what you pointed out seems a matter of merely combining paragraphs and making other mechanistic changes. However, some changes may require the subject-matter editor(s) to clarify the text, using references. I can do only so much as copy editor. So, we should see more of the nominator, and possibly other editors, in doing this. Dhtwiki (talk) 23:31, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
- That's fine. I'll extend the deadline by two weeks to allow either you or TimothyBlue to make the necessary changes. — Golden talk 08:37, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
- I've addressed all the points that I can. Dhtwiki (talk) 05:18, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
- I had completely forgotten about this review - I am very sorry. Thank you, Dhtwiki: your edits have been very helpful. I believe the article now meets all the GA criteria. Congratulations! — Golden talk 20:30, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
- I've addressed all the points that I can. Dhtwiki (talk) 05:18, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
- That's fine. I'll extend the deadline by two weeks to allow either you or TimothyBlue to make the necessary changes. — Golden talk 08:37, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
- An extension is evidently necessary, if this is to progress in this round. I had been planning to do some more editing, but I'm also copy-editing other articles. Some of what you pointed out seems a matter of merely combining paragraphs and making other mechanistic changes. However, some changes may require the subject-matter editor(s) to clarify the text, using references. I can do only so much as copy editor. So, we should see more of the nominator, and possibly other editors, in doing this. Dhtwiki (talk) 23:31, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
- @Dhtwiki or TimothyBlue: It's been a week since the last reply here. Would you like an extension to thoroughly review all the points? — Golden talk 20:50, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
Disputed Perpetrators
There is credible evidence that can be used to dispute the massacre's attribution via video evidence from: https://twitter.com/p8CntcBCrbZpMyB/status/1511022589354905605 which contains extremely damming evidence of possible ukrainian responsiblity in the massacre of bucha, so rushing to say russia committed the war crimes while the video evidence given proves otherwise makes the wikipedia entry completely uncreditable and spreading a narrative BarakHussan (talk) 16:23, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
- A brightened image of one of the massacre image shows the corpse on the left is a russian aligned memeber BarakHussan (talk) 16:37, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
- highlighted image of dead corpses with armbands BarakHussan (talk) 16:43, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
- More photos including russian rations: see link for image: https://www.amazon.ca/RUSSIAN-Daily-Ration-Military-06-2020/dp/B07SCKP2T7 BarakHussan (talk) 16:48, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
- https://www.stopfake.org/en/fake-mass-civilian-casualties-in-kyiv-region-staged/
- There are multiple sources which deny the "white armband" claim. I'd recommend you stop defending a quite obvious massacre... MarkusDorazio (talk) 03:41, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
- highlighted image of dead corpses with armbands BarakHussan (talk) 16:43, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
- Changes to the article need citations to reliable sources. Anti-Ukrainian twitter accounts do not qualify.See WP:VERIFY. —Michael Z. 18:56, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
“Context” section
Per discussions of the page on the Hamas-Israel war, WP is obligated to include a “context” section which indicates the major historical and social factors which explain the atrocity discussed. It is imperative, following this precedent, that a dedicated section titled “Context of NATO expansion, legacy of WWII, and conditions in the Russian army,” in order to give the reader insight into the story and humanity of Bucha perpetrators. Surely they did not act in a vacuum, but were compelled to commit atrocities because of their impoverished and hopeless upbringing, coupled with the stratospheric losses in WWII and the history of Ukrainian collaboration in producing those losses, which made them angry at Ukrainian women and children, just as Hamas is angry at Israeli women, children, and infants. This section must be created immediately, with Russian scholars and politicians cited, in order to mirror the Israel-Hamas article. 32.221.36.119 (talk) 14:45, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
- Reports say Russia systematically commits atrocity crimes.[1][2] —Michael Z. 22:49, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
- The worst part of the request above is the blatant attempt at victim-blaming. In fact 7 million Ukrainians fought for the USSR in WWII, and several hundred thousand Russians collaborated with the Nazis. —Michael Z. 23:04, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
- If you’re going to get into nazi collaboration it should probably be noted that the overwhelming majority of Russian collaborators were recruited from POWs while most Ukrainian collaborators were free volunteers. This info is readily available on this website itself. 2603:7000:B900:36EA:1811:C5C0:75D:45F9 (talk) 13:00, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
- I’m not, but most Ukrainians who fought for a free Ukraine, whether in German foreign legions or the UPA, had already experienced life under both invading régimes and had a good idea of what Moscow rule represented for Ukraine, both historically and immediately. Bucha’s just a reminder that today’s Russian régime practices a variation of the same colonialism and genocide, while its propaganda makes direct reference to colonial themes from the Middle Ages, the imperial period, and the Second World War. There’s your context. —Michael Z. 19:52, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
- If you’re going to get into nazi collaboration it should probably be noted that the overwhelming majority of Russian collaborators were recruited from POWs while most Ukrainian collaborators were free volunteers. This info is readily available on this website itself. 2603:7000:B900:36EA:1811:C5C0:75D:45F9 (talk) 13:00, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
- If you can find reliable sources that link the actions of the Russians in Bucha to a historical context, you are free to write such a section. Nicodene (talk) 20:06, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
- I thinkt that the comment by 32.221.36.119 was meant as a cynical remark on the Hamas-Israel war, not as a serious comment. A context section could nevertheless be useful. While the nature of the Russian war crimes pales in comparison to the barbarism of Hamas, they are systematic and cause a lot more victims. It is too early to tell, but Bucha seems to be kind of accidental, and indeed caused by a context, not by specific orders from higher up.
- The context would then be something like: Russian state media continuously portraying Ukrainians as facsists; an army that is sent to war without mental preparation or even being told that it was at war; Panic when it faces unexpected resistance; The brutal culture inside the Russian army; General disrespect or even lack of knowledge of the rules of war; A feeling that one can act with impunity, etc. etc.Grieg2 (talk) 17:54, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
- All systematic, not “accidental.” Russian security and military forces were ordered to use torture and murder against “Nazis,” meaning self-identifying Ukrainians among the “Little Russians” in Ukraine. They were merely not told that that described practically everyone in the nation they were sent to destroy and turn into “Russia.” They didn’t "panic,” they just continued to follow orders. The same systematic atrocities were committed in Kharkiv oblast, right-bank Kherson oblast, and everywhere else under Russian occupation. Anyway, cite reliable sources instead of offering WP:OR analysis and apologism, per WP:NOTCHAT. —Michael Z. 19:29, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
- Indeed, as I said, the Russian war crimes are systematic, i.e. all over Ukraine, but also in Syria etc. So it would be useful to create a context section. If there were general, but vague orders like "to use torture and murder against Nazis”, these would explain the events in Bucha. If you know about such orders, please add them to the page. They might point to a premeditated scheme of the Russian leadership to make the troops commit war crimes without giving them explicit orders. This is kind of smart if you do not want to end up in The Hague.Grieg2 (talk) 19:58, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
- Orders are rarely published, but there is a lot of evidence of systematic torture and murder cited in investigations and reports by Ukrainian law enforcement, independent organizations, experts, and the UN’s human-rights agencies: kill lists, consistent and pervasive establishment of Russian torture chambers, victims’ testimony, physical evidence from mass graves, consistent denial, refusal to investigate, and open announcements by Russia (like the open admission of the forcible deportation of hundreds of thousands of children), statements demonizing and dehumanizing Ukrainians and inciting genocide by Russia, &c. Indeed we should ensure they are included. —Michael Z. 16:17, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- it is absurd to report the Bucha killings as proven while Russia still cannot obtain any evidence on the person's killed from Ukraine. It's a scam and Wikipedia is shaming it's reputation by accepting this unverified narrative as the truth. For a start, release the names if all the person's killed. 60.241.101.37 (talk) 05:07, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
- Orders are rarely published, but there is a lot of evidence of systematic torture and murder cited in investigations and reports by Ukrainian law enforcement, independent organizations, experts, and the UN’s human-rights agencies: kill lists, consistent and pervasive establishment of Russian torture chambers, victims’ testimony, physical evidence from mass graves, consistent denial, refusal to investigate, and open announcements by Russia (like the open admission of the forcible deportation of hundreds of thousands of children), statements demonizing and dehumanizing Ukrainians and inciting genocide by Russia, &c. Indeed we should ensure they are included. —Michael Z. 16:17, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- Indeed, as I said, the Russian war crimes are systematic, i.e. all over Ukraine, but also in Syria etc. So it would be useful to create a context section. If there were general, but vague orders like "to use torture and murder against Nazis”, these would explain the events in Bucha. If you know about such orders, please add them to the page. They might point to a premeditated scheme of the Russian leadership to make the troops commit war crimes without giving them explicit orders. This is kind of smart if you do not want to end up in The Hague.Grieg2 (talk) 19:58, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
- All systematic, not “accidental.” Russian security and military forces were ordered to use torture and murder against “Nazis,” meaning self-identifying Ukrainians among the “Little Russians” in Ukraine. They were merely not told that that described practically everyone in the nation they were sent to destroy and turn into “Russia.” They didn’t "panic,” they just continued to follow orders. The same systematic atrocities were committed in Kharkiv oblast, right-bank Kherson oblast, and everywhere else under Russian occupation. Anyway, cite reliable sources instead of offering WP:OR analysis and apologism, per WP:NOTCHAT. —Michael Z. 19:29, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
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