Talk:Umm Qais

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Caesarea

I was reading else where that Gadara, Gerasa and Gergesa were all disguises for Caesarea, the location where the actual events may have taken place. check out legion (demon) --ciyean

Merge to Legion

I copied most of the text under Umm Qais#The miracle to Legion (demon). I propose that this paragraph is summarized here including a link to the Legion article. --84.20.17.84 16:50, 19 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Two Concerns (Gadara-Gerasa-Gergesa)

While this is an excellent page in many ways, largely from the ISBE, I see one major problem and one misrepresentation.

First look at these two contradictory statements.

"The Greek city of Gadara, was considered to belong to the larger region of Gerasa, though it still retained some local autonomy (Weber 1989: 9)."

"It may be taken as certain that the jurisdiction of Gadara, as the chief city in these regions, extended over the country East of the Sea, including the lands of the subordinate town, Gerasa."

The first statement could not relate to the Gadara of the article. Conceivably to the second Gadara, which was southwest of Gerasa. http://www.bible-history.com/geography/ancient-israel/gergesa.html However even that should have some primary reference to be accepted, and/or a quote or more precise info from Weber. (The larger region was the Decapolis, not Gerasa.)

The second statement is simply wrong. A lot of misinformation has been written about Gadara and Gerasa, often to shore up the strange textual reading in the Alexandrian text behind the modern versions (Gerasa, far from the Sea of Galilee).

Which leads to the other problem, simply parrotting the alexandrian minority textual view of the ISBE editors.

"(NOTE - The Textus Receptus of the New Testament reading. τῶν Γεργεσηνῶν, tṓn Gergesēnṓn, “of the Gergesenes”, must be rejected (Westcott-Hort, II. App., 11).)"

This is only textual propaganda against the historic majority text (the majority text also works geographically, while the Alexandrian text is errant).

Praxeus 16:40, 2 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

More than one Gadara

That bible-history.com map seems plain wrong in indicating two Gadaras. The more southern one is the mistake. All the accompanying text only refers to the northern, Umm Qais location. Theoretically, if "Gadara" is derived from the Semitic root for fence, I can imagine several places with boundaries marked by some kind of wall or fence getting this name, but that's a simple speculation. Until a good source proves the contrary, there's only one Gadara in the Decapolis and the region around it. Arminden (talk) 08:55, 3 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I see that I was wrong. There was another Gadara in Peraea, see here. The bible-history.com is wrong by confusing the two in the text, but there were indeed two in what's now northern Jordan. Arminden (talk) 09:26, 3 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Actually 3: biblical Gezer is called Gadara in Greek by Josephus, although the Loeb edition amended it to Gazara. Yet another argument in favour of renaming the page (see topic below). Arminden (talk) 15:38, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hebrew

Any particular reason the cities name is given in Hebrew? Is there some connection to Israel or the Hebrew Bible or is it just a matter of proximity? Avraham (talk) 09:53, 11 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Article on present city?

While this article is about the historic ruins, there's also a present-day, very much inhabited town of Umm Qais, Jordan, immediately south of the ruins. Shouldn't this article be under Umm Qais ruins (currently a redirect to this), and the ruins have a separate article? Daniel Case (talk) 06:23, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's an excellent idea to split the article. Marcocapelle (talk) 18:52, 14 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Or, it would be, under the name Gadara. If the proposed article is just Umm Qais ruins, leave it here. Is there anything very notable about the present citcey apart from its history that could be used to fill the empty space? —

Llywelyn II

11:43, 21 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

No, absolutely nothing. Besides, the old and new towns partially overlap. Arminden (talk) 08:08, 3 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, since we don't even lose a word about modern Umm Qais, we might as well call the article "Gadara" or "Gadara (Decapolis)" and use Umm Qais/Qays as redirects. Right now it's a bit of a swindle. Arminden (talk) 11:20, 3 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Pompey

I'm not saying the guy didn't turn the city into a member of the Decapolis on his own... but I personally doubt it and that idea needs a citation. — $Llywelyn II$ 11:45, 21 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Gader of the Talmud

@Davidbena: Hi David. I have removed the unsourced and very confusing paragraph - it's here for safekeeping:
"A different town called "Gader" [sic] is referred to in the Jerusalem Talmud (Erubin 5:7) and the Tosefta (Erubin 6:13) within a Sabbath day's walking distance from Hamath, a town situated within one biblical mile to the south of Tiberias."

Source
Why is it "a different town"? I guess we just have a case of confusing the Hamaths. There are two different Hamat locations in the area, now and in antiquity: Hamat Tiberias and Hamat Gader. Within walking (or cycling) distance of each other, and each of them very close to their respective "big sister" cities. One is right to the south of Roman Tiberias, and the other immediately downhill of Roman Gadara. Hamath/Hamat means hot springs, and both cities, due to being in the Jordan River Rift Valley, are next to such hot springs and were famous in Roman and Byzantine times for their spas. So two "spa suburbs" for two neighbouring cities, which flourished in the Roman and Byzantine periods.
Hamat Tiberias is a stone's throw away from the ancient southern city gate of Tiberias. The "Sabbath mile" is not at all a full mile, biblical or otherwise. "Within" a mile, yes. On the other hand, between Gadara and its Hamat it's a slightly different story, you'd probably need a very lenient rabbi to allow a Sabbath stroll of some 4 km (one way). We need a source.
By "sic" you mean that Gader is not Gadara? In this case, I think it might well be the same, just a small name variation. Here again, a good source could give us the answer.

So, without source and local knowledge, this becomes a misleading piece of wrong info. Once it's fixed, it deserves a *separate* paragraph, since it's not part of Umm Qais' description or history. Maybe it fits under "Location". Cheers, Arminden (talk) 08:45, 3 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Arminden. I'll need to review all the sources and get back with you. My understanding is that there are two sites called "Gader": one, a Gader near the Hamat of Tiberias, which latter place is perhaps connected with the Talmudic "Hamat-Gader" (mentioned in the Jerusalem Talmud) and which name seems to be used to distinguish itself from other places called "Hamat", meaning to say "the Hamat of Gader." The other place, Gadara (Umm-Qais), is a place farther away on the Syrian-Jordanian border. You're right, though, it's confusing, and we'll need to provide more complete sources for this distinction. BTW: The source cited by me in the Jerusalem Talmud clearly puts the distance of one Gader at within a biblical mile walking-distance of Hamat, near Tiberias. Still, we'll need more secondary sources to clarify this entry.Davidbena (talk) 12:29, 3 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Already I can see where scholars have placed Hamat Gader, not near Tiberias, but along the banks of the Yarmuk River. see JSTOR 27931308 and JSTOR 27925800. Anyway, I'll try and collect more information.Davidbena (talk) 15:19, 3 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

David, things are perfectly clear as long as the Talmud does not say one of 2 things: a) that Gadara (Umm Qais) is within a Sabbath's walk of its spa, 'cause 4-5km might surpass any definition of biblical mile, and b) that the two pairs are a biblical mile away FROM EACH OTHER. Apart from that, one pair (Tiberias and Hamat Tiberias) fits in perfectly, and the other one (Gadara and Hamat Gader) is in the same region and the city is also very close to its spa suburb (Gadara up the hill, Hamat Gader rigt below in the Yarmuk Valley).
On the Christian side of things, Emmaus, being nothing but Hamat in Graeco-Roman dress, created at least as much headache, 'cause there were so many of them. Lots of Hamat, quite a few Gadaras too :) Arminden (talk) 15:52, 3 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Wrong Gadara?

There were at least 3 Hellenised cities of Gadara/Gadaris in the S Levant: this, Gadara in Peraea (SW of Gerasa/Jarash), and Gezer. All data placed here for which the source is either missing, not online, or not clear on which Gadara it's about, cannot be used in good faith.
Re. the various luminaries: several are quoted from Strabo, who very clearly refers to Gadara/Gezer (see quotation & discussion here):

Menippus of Gadara (3rd century BCE), Cynic satirist^[1]
Meleager of Gadara (1st century BCE), Cynic poet^[1]
Philodemus of Gadara (1st century BCE), Epicurean philosopher and poet^[1]
Theodorus of Gadara (1st century BCE), orator^[1]
Antiochus, philosopher, "born little before my time" (Strabo)^[1] - this one Strabo seems to place in Ascalon, not Gadara; see discussion.

We need carefully researched sources to avoid serious confusion in LOTS of related articles. Cheers, Arminden (talk) 13:38, 3 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A good source (Blank, David, "Philodemus", The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (Spring 2019 Edition), Edward N. Zalta (ed.)) sorted it all out. Only one philosopher doesn't belong here, he actually does have his own page at Antiochus of Ascalon (the title says it all). In this case my "original research" based on a primary source - Strabo - did bear fruit; apart from that, the WP rule proved to be sound. No need to re-invent the wheel, look for good secondary sources and things get solved. Arminden (talk) 16:44, 3 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ ^a ^b ^c ^d ^e Strabo's Geography 16.2.29

Propose renaming: Gadara

@Daniel Case, Marcocapelle, LlywelynII, and Doug Weller: hi. We need to rename the article "Gadara" or "Gadara (Decapolis)":

Practically the entire material is about the ancient town.
Modern Umm Qais has close to nothing to offer for Wiki users. We can either just introduce an autodirect for Umm Qais, or leave Umm Qais separately as a stub; the Arabic Wiki probably has more.
There were at least 3 historical Gadaras plus a King Gadarat. We need a disambiguation page. For now I've placed the disamb. info under "See also" on this page (Umm Qais), which is far from ideal. Arminden (talk) 15:52, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

[Strabo16-1] Strabo's Geography 16.2.29

[1]