Talk:Pornography
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Semi Protected Edit Request on 30th of August 2021
Pornography
Change the text from:
Pornography (often shortened to porn) is the portrayal of sexual subject matter for the exclusive purpose of sexual arousal.[1] Pornography may be presented in a variety of media,…
To:
Pornography (often shortened to porn) is the portrayal of sexual subject matter for the exclusive purpose of sexual arousal.[1] A distinction could be drawn between erotic art and hard pornography.[ref] Pornography may be presented in a variety of media,
[ref] Lancet 11 June 1241/2 (1977), https://www.oed.com/view/Entry/148012?redirectedFrom=Pornography#eid
Etymology
Change the text from:
…As early as 1864, Webster's Dictionary defined the word bluntly as "a licentious painting".[21], The more inclusive word erotica, sometimes used as a synonym...
to:
…As early as 1864, Webster's Dictionary defined the word bluntly as "a licentious painting"[21], and the Oxford English Dictionary definition is from obscene painting (1842), description of obscene matters, obscene publication (1977 or earlier).[ref] The more inclusive word erotica when not demoted to pornography by censors, is used as a synonym…
[ref] OED, 2021, https://www.oed.com/view/Entry/148012?redirectedFrom=Pornography#eid
Semi-protected edit request on 4 December 2023
![]() | It is requested that an edit be made to the semi-protected article at Pornography. (edit · history · last · links · protection log)
This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y".
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Change what is being publicized as legal, because it's not legal in the America's. Research the topic further beyond disenfranchised infiltrators. It is federally illegal via 18 us code 1465. "Pornstars" are descendant of globally known kidnap/abduction victims or infiltrators attempting to usurp. It's been listed repeatedly as legal and it is not legal. 173.80.13.48 (talk) 12:58, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Cannolis (talk) 18:09, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
- Porn is not legal in the US and as a whole is described as sexual entertainment. The reference is the keyword "production" in 18 us code 1465. Pornography is not a political cartoon nor is it an admiration of a healthy physically fit form. Pornography is not an artistic comparison of the human body to vegetation found in nature. Pornography is not legal by any means. It, definition, is obscene.
- 18 U.S. Code § 1465 - Production and transportation of obscene matters for sale or distribution. 173.80.7.142 (talk) 18:02, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
- Change "Pornography is legal in the Us" to "Pornography is illegal in the US" referencing 18 US Code 1465. It IS obscene as indicated by its specific quality of lacking any value other than its usage and description of sexual entertainment. It is LITERALLY disinformation to say "Pornography is legal [in the United states]" 173.80.7.142 (talk) 18:06, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
- That would need to be supported by a reliable, secondary source. Your (mis)interpretation of the US Code is not a usable source on Wikipedia. - MrOllie (talk) 18:08, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
- What dictionary should be used as a teritary source?
- "...obscene, lewd, lascivious, or filthy book, pamphlet, picture, film, paper, letter, writing, print, silhouette, drawing, figure, image, cast, phonograph recording, electrical transcription or other article capable of producing sound or any other matter of indecent or immoral character, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.
- "The Oxford English Dictionary (OED) is widely accepted as the most complete record of the English language ever assembled." -https://library.harvard.edu/services-tools/oxford-english-dictionary#:~:text=The%20Oxford%20English%20Dictionary%20(OED,OED%20is%20a%20historical%20dictionary.
- Oxford dictionary via google
- Obscene: (of the portrayal or description of sexual matters) offensive or disgusting by accepted standards of morality and decency.
- "obscene jokes"
- Similar: pornographic
- Lewd: crude and offensive in a sexual way.
- "she began to gyrate to the music and sing a lewd song" 173.80.7.142 (talk) 01:59, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
- Lascivious:
- (of a person, manner, or gesture) feeling or revealing an overt and often offensive sexual desire.
- "he gave her a lascivious wink"
- Similar:
- lecherous
- lewd
- It is extremely clear...it's better to say illegal but not enforced rather than to blatantly claim that its legal...because that is BLATANT disinformation. 173.80.7.142 (talk) 02:02, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
- Your opinion does not matter. My opinion does not matter, either. You need very strong WP:RS in order to add your claim to the article. WP:OR won't do. tgeorgescu (talk) 02:07, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
- It is literally the US code itself via Cornell along with Oxford definitions. What more do you actually feel like you need? There are other pages describing laws in other countries listed as illegal but not enforced, what is the actual problem? Which do you feel is an opinion? The definition to the words themselves or the "shall be [fined and/or imprisoned] section? It's literally not an opinion.
- As early as June 28th, 1955:
- https://www.govinfo.gov/link/statute/69/183
- 18 U.S. Code § 2256 2. A. (v)lascivious exhibition of the anus, genitals, or pubic area of any person;
- I can literally keep listing references... 173.80.7.142 (talk) 14:26, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
- Lascivious is legitimately used as an adjective to describe the [display]. None of this is an opinion. Its not "original research" either; I didnt reference myself. I referenced cornell, oxford, govinfo.gov, and now justice.gov
- https://www.justice.gov/criminal/criminal-ceos/citizens-guide-us-federal-law-obscenity
- The examples literally include the words "erotic" and "lascivious". Ultimate sexual acts, normal or perverted, actual or simulated, masturbation, excretory functions, lewd exhibition of the genitals, or sado-masochistic sexual abuse. Along with the criteria of lacking serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value.
- The definition wikipedia uses to describe it "...for sexual satisfaction" 173.80.7.142 (talk) 14:56, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
- Additional references, from wikipedia itself Pornography in the Us..."the U.S. Customs and Border Protection prohibits the importation of any pornographic material (19 U.S.C. § 1305a "Immoral articles; importation prohibited").[62]
- And the source itself is the US code via Cornell: "...or any obscene.."
- If I'm (mis)interpreting an entire US code that uses the same word(s) then how is that article truthful?
- That is a clear contradiction. One of them is clearly domestic the other is foreign import surrounding the same exact topic...theres honestly nothing misinterpreted. This totals to approximately 6 references now. 173.80.7.142 (talk) 18:35, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
- Concocting your own original research or original synthesis (WP:SYNTH) is prohibited by website policy. So you still have a no, next week it will still be a no, next month still a no, and next year still a no. tgeorgescu (talk) 18:59, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
- You said a newspaper article...as a secondary source...but not official US codes, multiple .gov websites, pdfs, and an official dictionary? The Miller test, which is repeatedly referred to, isn't even enough in YOUR opinion good enough to edit it to say "legal but regulated"?.
- 19 U.S.C. § 1305a "Immoral articles; importation prohibited" is good enough for the sentence via Wikipedia that the "importation of pornography is banned" despite the fact that the word "obscene" is what is used in the referenced US code..yet the same word "obscene" along with "lewd" and "lascivious" is what is used in 18 us code 1465.
- Here's another definition: Prurient, the word used in the Miller test: having or encouraging an excessive interest in sexual matters.
- Pornography
- Oxford languages definition: printed or visual material containing the explicit description or display of sexual organs or activity, intended to stimulate erotic rather than aesthetic or emotional feelings.
- Wikipedia's definition contains "explicitly for sexual arousal"
- Explain how my claim fits original research when i didnt reference myself.
- Explain how my claims fits the description of synthesis when I literally used the explicitly stated definitions, the explicitly stated synonyms, and the SAME exact word that is explicitly stated in another US code that is utilized for the sentence "[The importation of pornography is banned]" via Wikipedia's own article, Pornography in the US 173.80.7.142 (talk) 07:30, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- WP:CIR. You're interpreting the law on your own, which is inherently unreliable (banned by website policy). WP:CITE a legal treatise from Harvard or Yale, not older than 20 year. Which has to make precisely that point explicitly. I.e. we don't want your own interpretation of the legal treatise. tgeorgescu (talk) 08:05, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- "The importation of pornographic material is banned" via 19 us code 1305a utilizing the word "obscene" according to wikipedias article Pornography in the US. Therefore via 18 us code 1465 Production and transportation of obscene matters for sale or distribution; pornography is also illegal utilizing the words "obscene", "lewd", and "lascivious". If you think it's legal, the Miller test clearly gives restrictions.
- "Federal statutes ban obscenity..." via wikipedias article US obscenity law. It's literally the same word buddy.
- Obscene material covers work that “depict[s] or describe[s] sexual conduct.” https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/obscene
- Im LITERALLY using definitions. That is inherently NOT my own interpretation. 173.80.7.142 (talk) 08:22, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- What do you think I'm interpreting on my own when I'm even listing wikipedias own words? You're asking for Harvard or Yale, what's wrong with Cornell? 173.80.7.142 (talk) 08:25, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- Cornell is okay, too. But it has to be the interpretation of a full professor instead of your own interpretation of law based upon English language dictionaries. tgeorgescu (talk) 09:04, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- I directly quoted sources...where in anything ive posted do you see my opinion or interpretation? 173.80.7.142 (talk) 10:05, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- I havent added my own words nor conclusions to anything regarding sources and references. Its copy and paste buddy. 173.80.7.142 (talk) 10:07, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- Pornography–"porn" or "porno" for short–is material that depicts nudity or sexual acts for the purpose of sexual stimulation. However, the presence of nudity or sexual acts in piece of media does not necessarily make that media pornographic
- https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/pornography
- Obscene material covers work that “depict[s] or describe[s] sexual conduct.”
- https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/obscene
- "...the U.S. Customs and Border Protection prohibits the importation of any pornographic material (19 U.S.C. § 1305a "Immoral articles; importation prohibited")."
- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornography_in_the_United_States
- "or any obscene book, pamphlet, paper, writing, advertisement, circular, print, picture, drawing, or other representation, figure, or image on or of paper or other material, or any cast, instrument, or other article which is obscene or immoral,..."
- 19 us code 1305a https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/19/1305
- "for the purpose of sale or distribution of any obscene, lewd, lascivious, or filthy book, pamphlet, picture, film, paper, letter, writing, print, silhouette, drawing, figure, image, cast, phonograph recording, electrical transcription or..."
- 18 us code 1465
- https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1465
- United States vs Kilbride
- They distributed sexually explicit ads among other things...1465 is even one of the charges, they were convicted, they appealed, they lost AGAIN. (I had the link directly to the PDF but for some reason Wikipedia has uscourts.gov blacklisted...embarrassing..but its not even needed)
- "The defendants were appealing convictions on 8 counts from the District Court of Arizona for distributing pornographic spam via email."
- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Kilbride
- Are you telling me all of this is my own (mis)interpretation and conclusions? Copy and paste ALL day...its BANNED...PROHIBITED...ILLEGAL...Do you want me to find MORE court cases? 173.80.7.142 (talk) 10:57, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- Stop citing dictionaries, even dictionaries of law. And Wikipedia isn't a reliable source, see WP:CIRCULAR. WP:CITE a full professor of law making explicitly that point or be gone from this talk page. We are absolutely not interested in your own syllogisms/deductions. Do you mean that in the past 20 years no full professor made such point? What do you think it holds for law professors, omertà? Omertà for law professors is such a ridiculous claim. tgeorgescu (talk) 13:07, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- How can you a adamently argue it? United States vs Kilbride. They got CONVICTED on 18 us code 1465(among others). They distributed pornographic ads. They appealed specifically on 18 us code 1465(among others), THEY LOST.
- It's not a deduction nor transitional properties being utilized. It's a legitimate court case. What are you even talking about omerta? I am providing you with exact, copy and paste, no thinking is even required, no deductive reasoning is even needed. I. Provided. An. Entire. Court. Appeal. Do you want the pdf? This is becoming ridiculously asinine. The fact that there ARE convictions on it proves to suggest or blatantly state that its legal is ENTIRELY disinformation.
- Wikipedia was the REFERENCE...the SOURCE was the conviction, lost appeal, along WITH the us code. Can you actually read? No one said anything about omerta. Are you suggesting wikipedia is ran by mafia and thats why theres such blatant contradiction despite there being severl court cases that BLATANTLY prove that pornography is illegal? 173.80.7.142 (talk) 14:45, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- That case was about email spam, i.e. sending porn to people who did not want porn. Apples and oranges. Analyzing court documents in order to draw your own conclusions is still prohibited as WP:OR.
- That case shows that obscenity is illegal. But it does not show that porn is illegal. Do you understand the difference? If a customer wants to watch a lesbian orgy, they cannot claim it violates their own obscenity standard, since it is the customer themself who wanted to access such product. tgeorgescu (talk) 15:22, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- Porn IS obscenity by definition, synonym, AND court case. That was an absurd analogy that IGNORED the fact the US law DEFINED pornography and gave criteria of whether or not something was pornographic, see previously listed definition cited on cornell. Furthermore if a glass smack addict wants glass and smack that doesnt make it legal to distribute glass and smack to them just because they wanted it. Why? Because drug laws federally outlaw it by what it is.
- "it is well-established that "there is no constitutional impediment to the government's power to prosecute pornography dealers in any district into which the material is sent." United States v. Bagnell, 679 F.2d 826, 830 (11th Cir. 1982), cert. denied, 460 U.S. 1047 (1983); United States v. Peraino, 645 F.2d 548, 551 (6th Cir. 1981)."
- Us v Thomas
- https://casetext.com/case/us-v-thomas-333
- EXPLICITLY stated. It's compounded from a total of 3 additional court cases, why are you even arguing at this point? These are convictions ON 18 us code 1465. 173.80.7.142 (talk) 15:36, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- The fact remains, we cannot use case text, legal dictionaries, or direct cites to laws (or any combination there of) on Wikipedia, because combining sources in this way is textbook WP:SYN. You're arguing the wrong things and you will not get the article changed this way. MrOllie (talk) 15:45, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- I provided multiple sources that all said the SAME thing. I didn't combine them to draw a conclusion. 173.80.7.142 (talk) 15:50, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- The fact remains, we cannot use case text, legal dictionaries, or direct cites to laws (or any combination there of) on Wikipedia, because combining sources in this way is textbook WP:SYN. You're arguing the wrong things and you will not get the article changed this way. MrOllie (talk) 15:45, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- Your analogy suggests that as long as someone creates new slang for something outlawed that its legal until the slang term is included in a statute. I.e. I want 4 tons of sticky icky good good crypti-chroni-conalite with 5 magazines of smut and 15 tons of grouper. Porn IS obscenity. See Us vs Thomas in previously listed source 173.80.7.142 (talk) 15:45, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- "Porn IS obscenity." Nope, for Wikipedia purposes that is banned from our articles as WP:OR. Take it or leave it, it is part of the package. You're wasting our time with claptrap. tgeorgescu (talk) 15:50, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- Dude...that is PROOF you're not reading the sources. ITS RIGHT HERE:
- Section 1465 is an obscenity statute, and federal obscenity laws, by virtue of their inherent nexus to interstate and foreign commerce, generally involve acts in more than one jurisdiction or state. Furthermore, it is well-established that "there is no constitutional impediment to the government's power to prosecute pornography dealers in any district into which the material is sent." United States v. Bagnell, 679 F.2d 826, 830 (11th Cir. 1982), cert. denied, 460 U.S. 1047 (1983); United States v. Peraino, 645 F.2d 548, 551 (6th Cir. 1981). Thus, the question of venue has become one of legislative intent. Bagnell, 679 F.2d at 830.
- US V Thomas https://casetext.com/case/us-v-thomas-333
- The statute is being discussed AND pornography is explicitly stated! 173.80.7.142 (talk) 15:53, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- "Porn IS obscenity." Nope, for Wikipedia purposes that is banned from our articles as WP:OR. Take it or leave it, it is part of the package. You're wasting our time with claptrap. tgeorgescu (talk) 15:50, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- Stop citing dictionaries, even dictionaries of law. And Wikipedia isn't a reliable source, see WP:CIRCULAR. WP:CITE a full professor of law making explicitly that point or be gone from this talk page. We are absolutely not interested in your own syllogisms/deductions. Do you mean that in the past 20 years no full professor made such point? What do you think it holds for law professors, omertà? Omertà for law professors is such a ridiculous claim. tgeorgescu (talk) 13:07, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- Cornell is okay, too. But it has to be the interpretation of a full professor instead of your own interpretation of law based upon English language dictionaries. tgeorgescu (talk) 09:04, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- WP:CIR. You're interpreting the law on your own, which is inherently unreliable (banned by website policy). WP:CITE a legal treatise from Harvard or Yale, not older than 20 year. Which has to make precisely that point explicitly. I.e. we don't want your own interpretation of the legal treatise. tgeorgescu (talk) 08:05, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- Concocting your own original research or original synthesis (WP:SYNTH) is prohibited by website policy. So you still have a no, next week it will still be a no, next month still a no, and next year still a no. tgeorgescu (talk) 18:59, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
- Your opinion does not matter. My opinion does not matter, either. You need very strong WP:RS in order to add your claim to the article. WP:OR won't do. tgeorgescu (talk) 02:07, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
- That would need to be supported by a reliable, secondary source. Your (mis)interpretation of the US Code is not a usable source on Wikipedia. - MrOllie (talk) 18:08, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
- As has been said repeatedly before, you really need a reliable, secondary source to back up this claim. Such a source would be a (reliable) newspaper article stating – not arguing, but stating – such, or strong evidence of a successful recent prosecution on those grounds. Without such a source, your argument does not hold up to the standards of an Encyclopaedia. Frankly, your persistence on this matter despite repeated explanations of why the answer is 'no' may constitute disruptive editing, which could result in an editing ban. I would also like to remind you that edit requests are specifically for edits that are uncontroversial or have already received consensus, not for arguing about your personal interpretation of a law. If you really wish to take this further, there are other avenues for dispute resolution; edit requests are not such. I highly doubt, however, that further attempts will be successful, so my polite suggestion would be to reconsider if this is worth your time. See also: WP:STICK -- Irltoad (talk) 20:37, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
- No one has negated any source that ive supplied. Another wikipedia article also agrees. No one has explained how ny sources fit "original research" or "synthesis" either, especially when whats being used are the same exact words that are written...Did you actually even look at my sources? 173.80.7.142 (talk) 07:35, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- The "explanations" do not fit the criteria as I, by fact, copied and pasted sources which have yet to be negated. I have even referred to another wikipedia page United states vs Kilbride. They were charged, convicted, appealed, lost the appeal...SPECIFICALLY referrencing 18 us code 1465. "[They] distributed pornographic images" 173.80.7.142 (talk) 11:09, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- "it is well-established that "there is no constitutional impediment to the government's power to prosecute pornography dealers in any district into which the material is sent."" United States v. Bagnell, 679 F.2d 826, 830 (11th Cir. 1982), cert. denied, 460 U.S. 1047 (1983); United States v. Peraino, 645 F.2d 548, 551 (6th Cir. 1981).
- https://casetext.com/case/us-v-thomas-333
- It is EXPLICITLY stated.
- What better source than ACTUAL COURT CASES? 173.80.7.142 (talk) 14:58, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
Comparative studies indicate higher tolerance and consumption of pornography among people tends to be associated with their greater support for gender equality.
What studies? Because there's studies that actually say the opposite like this one:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/jcom.12037
So I think that statement should be removed unless an actual source can be provided. 2A04:4A43:436F:E703:0:0:1FBF:B9E3 (talk) 19:36, 30 December 2023 (UTC)
- Source: Pornography Consumption and Attitudes Towards Pornography Legality Predict Attitudes of Sexual Equality Journal of Sex Research. 58 (3): 396–408. Jan 2021
- Lead text is summary of the article. All the claims in the lead are elaborated in the article's body with references, thanks. Rim sim (talk) 06:22, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
- The first paper is not indexed for PubMed, the second is. The second paper is even indexed for MEDLINE. tgeorgescu (talk) 07:14, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
- How is this a surprise? Pornography does not promote conservative ideas about gender roles. Dimadick (talk) 16:32, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
- I'm not sure if it is a systematic review, but if it is a review, it is higher in the pecking order than a WP:PRIMARY study. tgeorgescu (talk) 22:08, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
- How is this a surprise? Pornography does not promote conservative ideas about gender roles. Dimadick (talk) 16:32, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
- The first paper is not indexed for PubMed, the second is. The second paper is even indexed for MEDLINE. tgeorgescu (talk) 07:14, 31 December 2023 (UTC)
Good revert
The reverted edits are pseudoscientific ("The way of dopamine release is similar to addictive drugs such as meth"), antisemitic ("Not to mention, Roth was Jewish... Which the co-founder is also Jewish"), and a conspiracy theory ("The invalidation of obcenity laws went against the will of the american people, but multiple courts ensured it happened"). I mean, since the Bill of Rights declared that freedom of speech is holy, courts did not have any other option than to legalize pornography. They can claim that the Bill of Rights is the conspiracy, but that's a profoundly un-American view. tgeorgescu (talk) 09:44, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
Wiki Education assignment: Seminar in Human Sexuality
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