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Talk:The War of the Worlds (1938 radio drama)

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 45.76.87.187 (talk) at 13:44, 9 May 2024 (→Welle's (very questionalble) claims: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Lead states "allegedly causing panic", but Public reaction section clearly shows multiple instances of panic

We need to reconcile the lead and the Public reaction section. The latter clearly shows multiple reports and instances of panic all across the country. The lead, however, downplays these reports and says it "allegedly causing panic". There's really no "allegedly" about it. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 18:55, 29 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Princeton University / Rockefeller Foundation conspiracy theory

An anonymous user has thrice inserted the claim that this program was a secret public psychology experiment funded by the Rockefeller Foundation and carried out by Princeton University. This would be news to Wells and the writers of the show, who restructured the script into a breaking news format just days before it aired because the initial conventional version was deemed too dull. The cited source for the outlandish claim is a book which accurately says that the resulting panic was studied AFTER the fact, NOT that it was all some nefarious set-up by sinister forces or whatnot. I could possibly see mentioning the (baseless) conspiracy theory in the "legacy" subsection as long as the text makes it clear that it's not true, but it cannot be presented as fact. Zeng8r (talk) 15:30, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

GOCE copyedit request

@Tenryuu: I'm not @The helper5667:, but since I've worked on this article off and on over the years, I thought I'd chime in. The second half of the body text does need some cleanup and reorganization, so I'm glad somebody's working on it. On the other hand. before one embarks on a significant copyedit of an article about a famous / infamous piece of media such as this episode of the Mercury Theater on the Air, I think that it's important that one is quite familiar with the work and its legacy. Hopefully that's the case here. Zeng8r (talk) 02:14, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Zeng8r: Thank you for your interest and your concern is noted. That being said, my objective here is so that people who aren't familiar with the subject are able to get a clear idea of it. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 21:42, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Koch had written the first drafts for the Mercury Theatre broadcasts "Hell on Ice" (October 9), "Seventeen" (October 16),  and "Around the World in 80 Days" (October 23). Already edited. Is this relevant to the conception of "The War of the Worlds"? Seems like unnecessary padding. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 22:19, 10 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • The cylinder unscrews, and Phillips describes the tentacled, horrific "monster" that emerges from inside. Police officers approach the Martian waving a flag of truce, but the invaders [...] The first sentence describes one monster, but the next describe multiple invaders. Which is it? —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 22:19, 10 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Bob Sanders recalled looking outside the window and seeing a traffic jam in the normally quiet Grover's Mill, New Jersey, a crossroads of Cranbury and Clarksville Roads. Emphasis added. I think intersection would work better here? —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 22:19, 10 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Others blamed the radio audience for its credulity. I think the intended word is gullibility instead of credulity? —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 22:19, 10 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Wells expressed good-natured skepticism about the actual extent of the panic caused by "this sensational Halloween spree," saying: "Are you sure there was such a panic in America or wasn't it your Halloween fun?" Welles appreciated the comment: "I think that's the nicest thing that a man from England could say about the men from Mars. Mr. Hitler made a good deal of sport of it, you know... It's supposed to show the corrupt condition and decadent state of affairs in democracy, that 'The War of the Worlds' went over as well as it did. I think it's very nice of Mr. Wells to say that not only I didn't mean it, but the American people didn't mean it."
    When Shaw interjected that there was "some excitement" that he did not wish to belittle, Welles asked him, "What kind of excitement? Mr. H. G. Wells wants to know if the excitement wasn't the same kind of excitement that we extract from a practical joke in which somebody puts a sheet over his head and says 'Boo!' I don't think anybody believes that that individual is a ghost, but we do scream and yell and rush down the hall. And that's just about what happened."
    "That's a very excellent description," Shaw said.
    "You aren't quite serious in America, yet," said Wells. "You haven't got the war right under your chins. And the consequence is you can still play with ideas of terror and conflict... It's a natural thing to do until you're right up against it."
    "Until it ceases to be a game," Welles said, a phrase that Wells repeated in agreement.

    What's the point of quoting the interview here? —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 22:19, 10 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • It's a fascinating perspective, with author of the original novel and the director of the radio play discussing the supposed panic and putting it in the historical context of a looming world war, all after they'd had a couple of years to process the international public reaction to the episode. Absolutely integral to this article, imo. Zeng8r (talk) 02:14, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
       Tentatively done. I whittled it down because some of it seemed unfit for Wikipedia's voice, especially with some descriptors used. At this point, it goes beyond copyediting, but I would keep an eye out for the reliability of the sources used, especially the YouTube video. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 21:29, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Houses were emptying, churches were filling up; from Nashville to Minneapolis there was wailing in the streets and the rending of garments," he told Bogdanovich years later. When is "years later"? —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 22:19, 10 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • There's a citation to (one of) Bogdanovich's book(s) about Welles at the end of that sentence, which I've read but do not own. The citation includes a helpful time stamp from the audiobook version that one could check if one really wants to, but I don't think that the specific date of the statement is needed for the purposes of this article. Zeng8r (talk) 02:14, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Welles and Mercury Theatre on the Air [...] Is this the company or the show? It sounds like it's the show being inducted, but it could be the company instead. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 22:19, 10 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • Welles co-founded the Mercury Theater, which was a loose group of actors and writers that produced stage plays, radio plays, and movies (such as Citizen Kane). Welles was inducted in the Radio Hall of Fame as an individual (he appeared in MANY radio shows besides his own), and the Mercury Theater on the Air program was later inducted as well. All this can be learned by clicking the citation at the end of that sentence. Zeng8r (talk) 02:14, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • After the incident, Paez self-exiled to Venezuela, where he lived in Mérida until his death in 1991. Already edited. Not a copyedit issue, but you may want to cut down on some of the citations being used here. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 22:19, 10 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • On the 50th anniversary of the radio play, on October 30, 1988, a remake was aired, originated by WGBH, picked up by 150 National Public Radio stations, produced by Judith Walcutt of Otherworld Media, recorded outdoors at Skywalker Ranch, directed by David Ossman, who updated Howard Koch's original script, to make it sound like modern public radio, with Koch's approval and starring Jason Robards, Steve Allen, Hector Elizondo, René Auberjonois, Philip Proctor, Douglas Edwards, Scott Simon, and Terry Gross. Wikilinks removed. This is one very long run-on sentence, and I strongly suggest cutting down on details. Everything after mentioning it first aired on WGBH looks very extraneous. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 22:19, 10 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • One more thing: The "citation needed" tag at the end of the sentence "...the only notices that the broadcast was fictional came at the start of the broadcast and about 40 and 55 minutes into it" in the "Causes" section is unnecessary and worrisome, as one can easily verify this key piece of information by listening to the recording of the broadcast that's helpfully included right in the article.Zeng8r (talk) 02:14, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
My concern isn't when the breaks occurred so much as the broadcast's lack of sponsorship that allowed them to place breaks as they liked. As it is right now it sounds like original research or improper synthesis. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 21:31, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Looking forward to your responses, The helper5667. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 22:19, 10 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 14:11, 2 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 30 July 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (non-admin closure) - 🔥𝑰𝒍𝒍𝒖𝒔𝒊𝒐𝒏 𝑭𝒍𝒂𝒎𝒆 (𝒕𝒂𝒍𝒌)🔥 17:12, 4 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The War of the Worlds (1938 radio drama) → The War of the Worlds (The Mercury Theatre on the Air) – Since radio episodes don't seem to have a naming convention, the one that is close to this is WP:NCEPISODE which uses the title of the series as disambiguation. This makes these (very few radio episode articles) WP:CONSISTENT with the rest of episode articles. Gonnym (talk) 08:14, 30 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose move. Because radio episodes don't have a naming convention, whatever works works. The program it was broadcast under is the third thing which would come to mind, after Welles and 1938. O.N.R. (talk) 14:53, 30 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. The current disambiguator for this incredibly famous broadcast is the best and most helpful. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:36, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose While War of the Worlds is generally known to be a radio show that aired in the late 1930s, readers seeking out this article are less likely to already know that it was produced by the Mercury Theatre. As such, the current title should stay per WP:CRITERIA. Zeng8r (talk) 17:48, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Welle's (very questionalble) claims

https://web.archive.org/web/20150814020035/https://www.telegraph.co.uk/radio/what-to-listen-to/the-war-of-the-worlds-panic-was-a-myth/

"Within three weeks, newspapers had published at least 12,500 articles about the broadcast and its impact, but the story dropped from the front pages after a few days. Adolf Hitler referenced the broadcast in a speech in Munich on November 8, 1938. Welles later remarked that Hitler cited the effect of the broadcast on the American public as evidence of 'the corrupt condition and decadent state of affairs in democracy'."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_War_of_the_Worlds_(1938_radio_drama)#Public_reaction

"The myth of the result created by the combination was reported as fact around the world and disparagingly mentioned by Adolf Hitler in a public speech. [...] During a 1970 appearance on The Dick Cavett Show, Welles claimed to have met Hitler while hiking in Austria with a teacher who was a 'budding Nazi'. He said that Hitler made no impression on him at all and does not remember him. He said that he had no personality at all: 'He was invisible. There was nothing there until there were 5,000 people yelling sieg heil'."

WELLES: I think that’s the nicest thing that a man from England could say about the men from Mars. Mr Hitler made a good deal of sport of it, you know, and actually spoke of it in the great Munich speech. And there were floats in Nazi parade showing —

WELLS: He hadn’t much else to say.

WELLES: That’s right! (laughter) And it’s supposed to show the corrupt condition and decadent state of affairs in democracies that The War of the Worlds went over as nice as it did.

https://web.archive.org/web/20190721135841/http://www.rosslawhead.com/blog/2012/09/when-orson-welles-met-h-g-wells/

This obviously stems exclusively from the self-promoting imagination of the Kenosha-born “showman” Wells, who was a generation (26 years) younger than Hitler. For Hitler demonstrably did not give a speech in Munich the day before the so-called Kristallnacht, but was very probably in Berlin. Neither in German nor in English is there any reference on the entire Internet to a speech by Hitler in Munich's Bürgerbräukeller on November 8, 1938.

https://archive.org/details/max-domarus-hitler-reden-und-proklamationen-1932-1945-vol-1-4-compressed/page/967/mode/2up

https://archive.org/details/tcahs/page/n1173/mode/2up

Exactly one year later, however, he gave a speech in the Bürgerbräukeller, in which he did not mention the word decadence or corruption at all, let alone Well(e)s ridiculous “panic radio play about Martians”. He uses the word America once, in the sentence: “After all, this Germany has had more suicides in two years than Americans have died in the West in the middle of the war.”

https://www.georg-elser-arbeitskreis.de/texts/hitler-1939-11-08.htm

https://archive.org/details/19391108AdolfHitlerRedeImBuergerbraeukellerBegruessungVonChristianWeber1h00m

It was the speech in which eight people were killed by Georg Elser's bomb attack, according to the protocoll 20 (not "13") minutes after Hitler had left the scene. Equally truthful is Wells' statement that he once “sat right next to Hitler” in the Tyrol, only to attest to his “lack of personality” 35 (?) years later. I doubt with great emphasis that this guy was ever even close to Hitler, who was indeed “invisible”: because he was physically non-existent (except in the imagination of the fame-seeking Mr. Wells). https://youtubetranscript.com/?v=G_PUUHLknDI 45.76.87.187 (talk) 13:44, 9 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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