User talk:AndreasJS/Archive2

==Why did you change the Madonna disambiguation page? Can I put my version back if I don't put in the opinion? (Madonna is best artist). Thanks.

You vandalize in vain

See The inscription of Voden and The Tarlis massacre

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.74.43.255 (talk • contribs) 10:43, 4 December 2006 (UTC).

Archives
1 2

Dear Andreas,

Your changes like these

• (διαφ.) (ιστορ.) . . Κατά Ματθαίον‎; 16:37 . . Ανδρέας (Συζήτηση | Συνεισφορά) (απόστροφος -> κεραία (U+0374))
• (διαφ.) (ιστορ.) . . Κατά Μάρκον‎; 16:35 . . Ανδρέας (Συζήτηση | Συνεισφορά) (απόστροφος -> κεραία (U+0374))
• (διαφ.) (ιστορ.) . . Κατά Λουκάν‎; 16:32 . . Ανδρέας (Συζήτηση | Συνεισφορά) (απόστροφος -> κεραία (U+0374))
• (διαφ.) (ιστορ.) . . μ Κατά Ιωάννην‎; 13:56 . . Ανδρέας (Συζήτηση | Συνεισφορά) (απόστροφος -> κεραία (U+0374))

at the Greek el:s:WikiSource are disastrous for the use of the modern Greek speaking ones concerning the browsing and the referencing of these sources! Please revert your changes and come in contact with any of the administrators. Thank you. -- pvasiliadis  20:24, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Reply

You asked me to leave a note in the Bulgarian Wikipedia, which I just did, although I can't speak or write in standard Bulgarian. I wrote it in what we say Macedonian language, which of course as we all know is a matter of dispute so no need to go deeper into that now. As Todor Simovski is an author from Republic of Macedonia/FYROM, I strongly felt that it wouldn't be right not to inform the ROM/FYROM wikipedians, which I did in their Aegean Macedonia article. I beleive what I did is right, although I do feel concerns of possibilities for any nationalist motivated vandalism to the english article, quarells and similar abuses etc.
Now, I just made a quick check to the german toponyms article, it has some errors. Just for example:
1. The village of Ahil (Agios Ahileos) doesn't belong to the Kostur/Kastoria prefecture by any standards (nor by Simovski's book, neither by the greek administrative division. It belongs, as the rest of Prespa to Florina prefecture). If I check everything properly there may be more mistakes in the german article.
2. Again, the administrative division is not taken into account completely. Again I see the village Simvoli (Banitsa), which IS in the Serres prefecture, but in another eparhia than the other Banitsa (greek: Καρυαί) where Goce Delchev was killed. The first one is in eparhia Filidos, the other one in eparhia Serron in the same prefecture of Serres. These things may confuse the readers.
2. Not every toponym is really listed both in bulgarian and macedonian as it was supposed to be (you see in the table: bulgarian/macedonian). Ok, as I said before, you may say the macedonian language is a matter of dispute and so on, but still, if they've decided to incl. the names as they're written by ROM/FYROM standards then they should do it properly. What it is written in bulgarian: Байракли Джумая, in ROM/FYROM we would write as: Бајракли Џумаја, since our alphabet is phonetic, we never use one letter for two 'voices'.
However there are few correct cases in this german article, just as an example bulgarian: Айватово (they included macedonian: Ajватово), in latin would be: Ajvatovo or Ayvatovo (depending on the transliteration method used) and the present greek name is Lithi.

I may also copy/paste some of these explanations in the english discussion too.
If its against the rules to use english in the german discussion and if it's not a problem for you, can you please translate this text above (the notes about the errors I found) in german language so it can be posted to the german discussion and be useful for them? thank you. when i will be less busy, i will check both the bul. and ger. article completely as I previously promised.--Vbb-sk-mk 04:33, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Naming

Dear AndreasJS,

If you read carefuly the Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names), it says: "The lead: The title can be followed in the first line by a list of alternative names in parenthesis: {name1, name2, name3, etc.}. Any archaic names in the list (including names used before the standardization of English orthography) should be clearly marked as such, i.e.: (archaic: name1) Relevant foreign language names[3] are permitted and should be listed in alphabetic order of their respective languages, i.e.: (Armenian: name1, Belarusian: name2, Czech: name3..."

According to this we can add Turkish name Greek cities. Also, because of historical importance Turkish names should be added to artices about places in Greece as in the examples of Turkish place articles.

CrashMex 15:22, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Natascha image

I don't believe the English wikipedia is bound by German copyright law -- while I personally don't like fair use images, I don't think that we can speedy the image you tagged because it would be on questionable policy grounds. --Improv 18:36, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

You probably mean Austrian law. Moreover, this is not an issue of copyright but of personality protection.   Andreas   ^(T) 18:39, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

• I imagine the English wikipedia is also not bound by those Austrian laws. If you disagree, it might be good to drop a note to WP:OFFICE -- they handle legal issues there. Take care. --Improv 19:02, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your response

I've replied to Talk:Basal_metabolic_rate#Responses_to_RFC and would like to ask for further explanation. Thanks Joe 18:18, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Greek language article series

Hi, my old proposal (from June) regarding the reorganisation of the Greek language article series has been revived and there's now again a discussion ongoing. Much of it is just an exchange of old arguments, but perhaps your renewed input will help to find the best solution. Thanks! Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:49, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Greek dialect names

You reverted my change, but as it is now, it's simply incorrect. Ποντιακή is an adjective, so can't be used as the name of a dialect; the name of the dialect is Ποντιακά (Ποντιακή can be used in some situations where a noun is implicit, but that's not the case in the English article on Modern Greek). If for some reason you don't like calling it Ποντιακά, the only other solution is to do what el.wikipedia does and use the adjective with with a noun like "dialect" or "language", as Ποντιακή διάλεκτος. Would that be better? --Delirium 14:43, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, this was not intended. I was only objectiong to Δημοτικά.

Pitman Shorthand

I've replied to your comment on the classification of Pitman Shorthand on its talk page --Siva 19:22, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, I read it. After reading your comment, I changed Gabelsberger shorthand back to Abjad.   Andreas   ^(T) 19:29, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Italian languages

Dear Andreas, I think you have some misconceptions of Italian languages. If you want to discuss them some here too, that is fine by me. Please read my attempt at trying to compare the languages in Italy with those in China. Also, are you Greek as well as German? Good to meet you and thanks for adding to our chaotic debates. :) Taalo 01:04, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, Italy as a unified state (1861) is a little older than Germany (1871). In Germany we have many dialects/languages like Austro-Bavarian ( a language also spoken in Italy, for example, in Meran), Low German, Alemannic language (the latter spoken in 5 countries), etc. Standard German is like Standard Italian, the latter being as known as lingua Toscana in bocca Romana. As far as I know, of the many Romance languages/dialects spoken in Italy, only Italian, Ladin and French (in the Aosta Valley) are official. Ladin is a variety of Rhaeto-Romance language which is also spoken in Switzerland, where it is also an official lanuguage, look at any Swiss money and you can see by yourself.

• "BANKA NAZIUNALA SVIZRA - Tschuncanta Francs"

Intrestingly, Ladin is closer to French than the Tuscan dialect (the basis if Standard Italian), Ladin, French and Piemontese belong to the Gallo-Romance branch, wheras Tuscan, together with Neapolitan and Sicilian belongs to the Italo-Dalmatian branch.   Andreas   ^(T) 01:52, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I just added Nones and Solardo to the list of Rhaeto-Romance language. Interesting if these languages are indeed closer to French than Tuscan. I know that I can much easier understand Nones/Ladin/etc. off of my Italian than I can understand French though! :-) I remember down in Cremona, the language/dialect they spoke seemed to me very much like French (or at least the sounds they used). I could hardly understand a word and it was driving me crazy. Anyway, I guess that the Ladin speakers piggy-backed on the German speakers in Bolzano/Bozen during the push to get these well-deserved language recognitions. It did not happen in Trento with the similar languages. No big deal, the people still have a good time speaking the various languages/dialects. Anyway, just darn interesting stuff. :-) my best regards. Taalo 02:02, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, indeed, Ladin was recognized together with German as an official language in South Tyrol. However, I doubt if any Rhaeto-Romance speakers live in the area of Meran. The Ladin speakers are basically confined to certain areas, most importantly the Val Gardena.

Yes, you are correct in your statements. As far as speakers in Merano go, I don't know. Realize that this whole area from Switerzerland to the Dolomities was originally for the most part all "Latin, i.e., Roman, i.e. Italian" people who spoke these Rhaeto-Romance languages. That is another irony of it all -- as my gut feeling is that many of the German-speakers of the region were most likely locals who were Germanized. Of course others were likely genuine Germanic people who moved into the area in the 17th and 18th centuries. It is all again an interesting history in the end, because for the most part the people in this particular area of Europe are all cousins; whatever they happen to speak now. I just find it a bit ridiculous to hear it said that Italians just came into the area in the 20th century. It is really more the case that Italians had been in the area for 16 or 17 centuries, and then the Germans showed up. That's fine, and it created the interesting culture we have now. A few of my ancestors were those Austrians/Germans -- so I'm bloody well glad they did join the party. :-) take care. Taalo 04:21, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

French evolved a lot from the original Gallo-Romance vernacular, and the vocabulary has taken a lot of other elements. But the loss of the masculine/neutral ending "o" is a characteristic of both Rhaeto-Romance and French.   Andreas   ^(T) 03:06, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Again, interesting stuff. Wish I could find the time to get more into the details of all the languages themselves. Taalo 04:22, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

• I have replied to your message on my talk page. have a good weekend andreas. Taalo 18:05, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Re: Bauzanum

Guten Tag Andreas, I replied to your question on my talk page. Ciao, Alex2006 12:42, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Gabelsberger shorthand

Took the liberty of removing the term 'abjad' from the page about Gabelsberger shorthand. As far as I can see from Wikipedia's article on abjads, an abjad is a system of writing that does not have individual graphemes for vowels. If this definition is correct, then Gabelsberger shorthand is not an abjad.

Gabelsberger shorthand has a full alphabet with signs for both consonants and vowels. When writing words, vowels are either written alphabetically or represented symbolically according to a somewhat diffuse scheme (the 1834 Anleitung is notoriously unclear about how vowels should be represented and often leaves more than one option).

Vowels are almost never omitted enirely, which is one of several factors which make Gabelsberger very different from e.g. Pitman shorthand (or from Arabic or Hebrew writing, which are typical abjads according to the Wikipedia article). Carlp72 15:33, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. Please post this also to the discussion page of the article. Also, how nice, you seem to really know something about this. Is it asked to much to post the basic alphabet on the page? Other alphabets have such a table, see Greek Alphabet. You could write the individual glyphs yourself and scan them, so there will not be any copyright problems.

PS My grandfather de:Josef Schwab was a great lover of Gabelsberger shorthand: he designed a version for the Dutch language. Unfortunutely, he did not write a usable textbook, so the Dutch Parliament never used his version. See the following email I got:

The Hague, August 23, 2000

Dear Mr. Schwab,

I very much doubt that the adaptation to the Dutch language of the (German) Gabelsberger shorthand system by your grandfather Jos. Schwab was ever used in the Dutch parliament. It dates from 1890 and was not written as a text-book for (self-) instruction. Although Jos. Schwab offered his co-operation to write such a text-book, this project did not materialise. Until 1907 there was only one shorthand system in use in the Dutch parliament, developed by the first Dutch parliamentary stenographer C.A. Steger (published in 1867) and based on a mixture of French shorthand systems. From 1907 on the use of other shorthand systems in the Dutch parliament was allowed, but among them there were, as far as I know, no adaptations of the Gabelsberger system.

My sources were the following two books, published in Dutch:
1. “Kortschrift”, by J.A. Dreesman (1958); and
2. “Zwijgend medewerker en aandachtig luisteraar, 150 jaar stenografische dienst der Staten-Generaal”, by B.J Bonenkamp (1999).

Yours truly,

Jan den Holder (Dutch parliamentary stenographer)

My father (born 1899) was also very proficient in Gabelsberger, he wrote all his notes and manuscripts in Gabelsberger. When his secretary retired, he had to use magnetic tapes because his new secretary could not read his notes any more :(. I cannot read his notes, either, for example some inscriptions on the back of photographs.  Andreas  ^(T) 16:00, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your reply. I'm a parliamentary reporter myself (working in the Swedish parliament), and I've been taking a great interest in the history of shorthand. Although I don't use Gabelsberger myself, I own a few Gabelsberger textbooks in German, including a facsimile of the 1834 Anleitung. I also have copies of Gabelsberger books in Swedish, Danish, Russian and Italian. I'll see what I can do about posting the full alphabet. Carlp72 16:17, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

The 1834 edition is not under copyright anymore, (G. died in 1849) so you can scan pages and upload them to http://commons.wikimedia.org/ . Is there a page in the book with an overview of the glyphs?  Andreas  ^(T) 16:37, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

WikiProject Munich

I noticed you're a good German speaker. I'm wondering if you could help out at WikiProject Munich. Maybe you could help out with the project's Translation page. If you're interested, you can sign up here. Kingjeff 04:01, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Kaltsef blocked indefinitely

After having to block Tureg2 (talk · contribs), Tureg3 (talk · contribs), and UOGORTH (talk · contribs) tonight, reverting userpage vandalism, etc. - I have honestly had enough of this user. Therefore, I have decided to be bold and ban him myself. Please let me know if there are any objections. Khoikhoi 10:00, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

ICHTHYS

Thanks for catching my mistake. The reason I changed it is because in the ICHTHYS article, the breathing mark is written before the capital upsilon while the iota had nothing (which I didn't happen to see in the Greek phrases article). So is that wrong too? --Chris S. 23:24, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

I do net see where there is a capital upsilon in ICHTHYS . The spelling is

Ἰχθύς, ἰχθύς, ΙΧΘΥΣ. There is no diphthong here. The upsilon carries an acute accent. See Diacritics (Greek alphabet) for the rules.  Andreas  ^(T) 00:53, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Userpage protected

Hey Andreas, I've decided to semi-protect your userpage for you, Kaltsef just wouldn't give it a rest. Hope you don't mind. Please let me know if you also want your talk page semi-protected. Cheers, Khoikhoi 08:41, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

WP:RFBOT

Your recent bot approvals request has been approved. Please see the request page for details. When the bot flag is set it will show up in this log. -- RM 19:22, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi. Per Ram-Man's final approval [1], I've granted a bot flag to your bot. Cheers, Redux 00:48, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Septuagint

Thank you for your work on this. It seems like several parts of this project are really falling into place lately. I will let the rest of the people in the project know so we can sort out with version to bring over and how to manage interwiki links.--BirgitteSB 18:11, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Munich Riem Airport

Hi I've proofread the English translation of Munich-Riem Airport - I've never done it before so I'm not sure if I need to get rid of the translation box and if I need to do anything else. The instructions on there aren't terribly clear and I get confused easily. Regards --Luccent 15:18, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

That reads fine; I wasn't quite sure what was happening there because what I got from the translation was "there was a need for those structures to be built before the airport could operate to capacity". But you have made it clearer what exactly happened. So I think that the article is finished. yay. --Luccent 16:55, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Christian Frederick Charles Alexander (Brandenburg-Ansbach)

I noticed your editorial change to this article. The sentence you edited now does not make sense in English. I realize that I may have limited understanding of what is intended in the German original, but I definitely can write in English according to my understanding. Perhaps you could help me by answering one question. I will then take care of cleaning up the English. The question is: In 1810, did the Kingdom of Bavaria acquire the principality of Bayreuth?

Vielen Dank. Cbdorsett 07:14, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I did not try to correct your English, and despite my 20 years living in Canada, mine is not perfect. In hindsight, I agree your formulation was the better one.  Andreas  ^(T) 14:32, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

I tried to fix up the article for copyedit and formatting. Please take a look and make sure it still conforms to history. You said that Germans sometimes have a convoluted way of expressing themselves; I wonder if it's because of the divergence between everyday oral language and formal written language. We have this problem in English, too. Nobody ever uses the labyrinthine constructions of formal writing when they talk, and it takes a few years of practice before people adapt to the syntax and rhythms of formal writing. You're a professor; I'm sure you see it a lot in the compositions of your freshmen. :) Und wenn ich möchte auf Deutsch zu schreiben, entschuldigen Sie! Cbdorsett 14:29, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Peer-review of Metabolism

Hi there, this article has been re-written and expanded. Any comments at Wikipedia:Peer review/Metabolism would be very welcome. TimVickers 04:03, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Dies Bildnis ist bezaubernd schön

Greetings from the Opera Project. I see you are recommending that this page be copied into WikiSource. We've never really liked articles on individual arias (extracted from their opera contexts so maybe this is a good solution. May I ask how exactly it works? Thanks and regards. - Kleinzach 03:51, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

There are more of these kind of articles, see Category:Copy to Wikisource. See the following link for details: transwikied. In this case the question is whether the article should be moved to the German or the English WS. Ideally, the German text goes to the German and the English text to the English WS, so the article has to be split accordingly. I would suggest that first all other such texts are tagged, and then the move is done in one shot.  Andreas  ^(T) 12:45, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I'd prefer to see the English remain with the French/German/Italian as it really only has value (if it is a good translation) with the original. Maybe that is a problem with Wikisource? A lot of the explanatory text could and probably should be merged with the opera articles. By the way I have put a note about this on the Opera Project. You might like to comment there. - Kleinzach 14:15, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

There are also some similar items in Category:Opera excerpts. I have put tags on some of them. - Kleinzach 23:25, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Amfipoli

Hi, I added a paragraph in the article Amfipoli. Could you look at it and maybe edit please? It's the last paragraph. Here's the article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amfipoli Thanks! Neptunekh 07:44, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Anabasis

I see that you uploaded [[Anabasis. It would be nice if it could be incorporated into Wikisource at s:Anabasis. I could do it if you agree. I know how to cut this into chapters using meta:pywikipedia software.  Andreas  ^(T) 14:40, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Mr Andreas . thank you so much for incorperation invation .it is very nice of you .I am sory not to be incorperated such a good talk. Infact I haven't much time to do this task beyond my public serveces. I also only interested in the black sea chapter of Anabasis. If a have time i really want to write about ayyubid destny in kailar and "erdoğmuş" villiage's beys in kailar. My family originially from erdemuş or erdoğmuş villiage' yuruk Khans. If you are from kailar you can post pictures of erdemuş pictures. --3210 12:44, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Nigrán

Hi, I noticed that you tagged the article Nigrán as a copyright violation but didn't specify why. Can you provide a link, for example? Thanks, --KFP (talk | contribs) 13:34, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Oh, I didn't see your comment on the talk page. I have replied there. --KFP (talk | contribs) 14:11, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

{{polytonic}}

hm, are you saying, the change, while certainly for the better design-wise, stops the template working for MSIE5 users? This is propbably without consequence, because according to MSIE, the fraction of users with version 4 or 5 is at 0.66%, and most of these will be on systems so old that they won't have the proper Unicode fonts anyway. As for the parameter-less "open a div" option, I am not sure I like it. templates that open leaking html tags will be a terrible source of faulty formatting. What is it used for? dab (𒁳) 14:21, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

or, are you saying, the change made the template stop working for MSIE6? this would be unacceptable, since it would break polytonic Greek for about 50% of users. dab (𒁳) 14:30, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

a) The template works fine, only the documentation that is shown when you open (look at, not transclude) it does not mention this:

• /* Support for Template:IPA, Template:Unicode and Template:Polytonic. The inherit declaration resets the font for all browsers except MSIE6. The empty comment must remain. */

or something to the effect. Users not using MSIE6 (most users by now because MIE7 apparently work OK) will be confused because they will not notice any effect. (Btw I use Safari so I do not really know how it looks with MSIE). Maybe the opening comment should end with:

"for users of Microsoft Explorer version 6. It has no effect of users of other browsers".

Only a documentation issue. (Maybe I am picking flees here)

b) I agree, opening a leaking tag is not nice. I made this for use in the Greek Wikisource because whole pages should be polytonic. I would have to think of a better way. Any ideas?  Andreas  ^(T) 14:38, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Pella

Andrea, thanks for your note. Splitting ancient and modern settlements like this is always delicate, since many places have undocumented periods ("Dark Ages") or were even abandoned at some periods. In this case, I think the decision is quite simply pragmatic: there is a lot to say about ancient Pella (and in fact there is a lot said about it), but not much to say about modern Pella (currently we say almost nothing, but even when that gets filled in, there won't be much). Having an article that is 95% about the great capital of ancient Pella and 5% about the small town of modern Pella doesn't help the reader much, whether they're looking for the ancient one or the modern. On the other hand, I don't think it would be out of place to have a one-paragraph section on ancient Pella in the Modern article (with a main-article link). I don't have much of an opinion on Amphipolis; is it in fact the same site? --Macrakis 18:48, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Ptolemaida

The history section of this article is a mess. There is material from the 1911 Britannica which is about Macedonia in general (not Ptolemaida in particular) and the other references need to be checked. Unfortunately, User:3210 seems to think that any removal of low-quality or irrelevant content is some sort of Greek propaganda, and reverts it. Do you have ideas on how to move forward? --Macrakis 06:13, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Vogliatemi bene

Please allow this article to remain in wikipedia. I posted a comment on the article's talk page. RedRabbit1983 14:17, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Trablmejker

OK, so maybe I made a mistake when googling (or their SEO was just getting underway) and there really is 841 google hits. But you removed my prod without addressing any of the other reasons I put. I didnt say it was a copyvio. What I said was that it does not assert notability. Being a group of citizens with commendable goals is not automatic notability. Having 841 google hits (and please look at those hits, most are either myspace, part of SEO campaign or totally unconnected with the group in question) is also not a reason for notability. I think this is all just part of the SEO campaign and should be speedied, so please explain why do you disagree with my statement that it does not assert notability. Shinhan 05:16, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Nevermind, I found the link from where it was copy/pasted: [2] Shinhan 05:37, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Andreas we were argued about balkan wars and beauty of kai tribe; I just faund a link and i added inside in our discussion. It is true what i said.

3210, I have the impression that you do not understand how an encyclopedia is supposed to work. Please stick to statements that can be verified from reliable sources. The takeover of a town by a hostile conquerer, especially if dominated by a different ethnic group, will regularly lead to atrocities. The fate of the Turkish inhabitants of Kailar after the Greek takeover is of course an important aspect of the article. Please, provide some reliable sources of the events of that period, and describe them in a more neutral fashion. Qualifiers such as beautiful, attractive; gracious, pleasing men do not belong here. (I assume the there were some beautiful, attractive; gracious, pleasing men also among Greeks, as it will be the case with any other group of humans).  Andreas  ^(T) 19:21, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Mr Andreas, I have also the impression that you do not understand how an ancyclopedia is supported to work without greek propoganda. During the I.WW Nationalities were discovered that knowledge can be a propoganda material. Infact All of the the referances have been written by me are relaible sources. Unforcuannatly You deleted many times of the Kailar article which sorced from encyclopedia brittanica 1911 edition. The true that it is the most relaible encyclopedia edition in the world. Because knowlodge did not used for propoganda material in 1911 edition. So that they wrote abaout turks sober, order, self desiplinied, they show the best caracter of the race. Also turks handsome, beautiful, attractive; gracious, pleasing men . Because turks the most arian race in the world. You said(I assume the there were some , beautiful, attractive; gracious, pleasing men also among Greeks, as it will be the case with any other group of humans). if you did not mixed with turks you could not be such spesipication. I could give you some pictures of pure turkish Kailar people. you will see how they were handsome.[3] (In Persian, turk, in addition to the national name, also could mean "a beautiful youth), Do not tell me all anatolian people as arian turk --3210 17:10, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

You have not yet answered the important questions. Which sources talk about the move of the population to the mountains? Does this source say if they were forced to leave the town, by what means, and where the went (which mountains)? Did they leave before or after the conquest of the town? Are there more than one independent sources describing the incident? I also still miss the clarifications I asked for at Talk:Ptolemaida#Attempt to copy-edit Ottoman section, in particular the meaning of the words "komshi" and "halalleshma".  Andreas  ^(T) 14:31, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

I have refered that the Consulat of British in Thesellanico mesajed to London about atrocities.look at all Brittish archives.İf they say one you could easally think it is ten times worse than they said.

look at also:McCarty, "Death and Exile" book.--3210 04:41, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

German train

Please don't waste my time and delete it -I was hoping German wikipedians on here mught have translated it. ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ ^{"Expecting you" Contribs} 20:47, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

You went the wrong way about it also -you put it up for speedy deletion when you should gave proposed it for deletion. I was hoping the article would have been translated by now. ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ ^{"Expecting you" Contribs} 20:53, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

OK but I have put requested articles in the "official" place for translation before and they never seem to be translated. I was hoping a user like yourslef might come across the article and have the knowledge to trlansate it and help the project. It just I see it a shame to stub an article when another wikipedia has masses of information on it. We should all work together to try to produce same detailed length articles in all languages -copying from another wikipedia shouldn't be a problem if it is translated quickly - but unfortunately it doesn't seme to be. My only solution is the babelfish transation - this way we can get a rough transaltion -this way it won't face the transation delete tagging ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ ^{"Expecting you" Contribs} 18:14, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Pleas use English

Hi, you posted this message on my talk page:

de

Hello, and welcome to Wikipedia! We appreciate your contributions to the de article, but since this is the English Wikipedia, we cannot accept text in other languages. However, if this is an original article, perhaps you would like to translate it into English.

If you want to contribute in a foreign language, your contributions are more than welcome at a Wikipedia in that language (find it in the list of Wikipedias). If you wish to have an article from a foreign-language Wikipedia translated into English, make a request at Wikipedia:Translation.

For more information, take a look at Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Happy editing!To have a page translated, list it at Wikipedia:Translation  Andreas  ^(T) 20:40, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

I have no idea why, I'm sure I haven't written articles in German. Markussep ^Talk 20:55, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

I will do in the future thanks but if I spoke German I would have done it myself. ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ ^{"Expecting you" Contribs} 20:56, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Stop placing the wrong tag in the page. You keep placing the speedy delete tag in the pages, THis is wrong it should be the candidates for deletion tag. Please don't do it again. ♦ Sir Blofeld ♦ ^{"Expecting you" Contribs} 15:50, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Propaganda

Asteraki, I want to assure you that I am totally against propaganda. Nevertheless, I occasionally get accused of promoting a Greek POV.

In the case of Kastoria Prefecture, mentioning Macedonians (Greek) is not necessary, it is self-understood for a Greek place that the majority of its inhabitants are ethnic Greeks. It is the non-Greek ethnic groups that have to be mentioned explicitly(if they can be shown to exist citing relevant sources).  Andreas  ^(T) 18:45, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

(Greeklish gia na me katalavis kalitera)
Agapite Andrea s´efharisto gia tin enimerosi, poli evgeniko ek merous sou. I proigoumeni sinisfora sou omos, peri dithen Slavomakedonikis mionotitas ston nomo Kastorias distihos itan lanthasmeni, giati prokite peri outopias... Pantos i teleftea sinisfora sou kai i taftohroni aferesi pou ekanes, mou ine protimoteri kath`oti ine orthoteri... giati stin ousia diorthoses to proigoumeno lathos sou. Filika --Asteraki 18:59, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Foreign language articles

Hi there; you are, of course, wholly right in your interpretation of wiki policy, and I have deleted the article. I did not initially appreciate that it already existed elsewhere. My mistake, and my apologies. --Anthony.bradbury^"talk" 21:56, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

invented names

Hey Andreas, I saw you wrote a couple months ago, "Many of the Italian names in South Tyrol were literally invened by Ettore Tolomei, although others like Bolazano are indeed pre-Tolomei names. This is explained in further detail in Prontuario dei nomi locali dell'Alto Adige and should be discussed at Talk page. Andreas (T) 22:08, 9 April 2007 (UTC)". Could you point out to me what names are "invented"? I know there was a few inventions in the very North East tip of BZ, where the villages have a more true Germanic history, but besides that few, there wasn't really that many inventions (i.e., that page you referred to his highly biased). cheers Icsunonove 17:08, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Replied at my talk page. Be aware that page you referenced http://www.unionfs.com, is of the racist and far-right Union for Südtirol. They also want any "foreigners" or "Italians" out of BZ. They have an agenda, and from that text look for any reason to wipe out any Roman/Italic/Italian naming. Hmm, wonder if their buddies were in charge of this [4]. Anyway, my main point is most of all these names have a place. Nova Teutonica or Nova Ponente, or Nova whatever, doesn't matter. The name Nova, for example has been the name of the town for centuries. That said, there were some inventions, like in Sterzing; but they are really few and far between. Anyway, you are a professor, you certainly must have an open mind. :-) regards, Icsunonove 19:53, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

• Ein erster Schritt in diese Richtung wäre der Verzicht auf den tolomeisch-faschistischen Begriff „Alto Adige“ und deren Ersatz durch „Sudtirolo“. Was den gesetzlichen Status des Begriffs „Alto Adige“ anlangt, so ist dieser entgegen den Verlautbarungen von Landesrat Dr. Werner Frick in Bezug auf die Provinz keineswegs verfassungsrechtlich verankert, denn laut Verfassung und auch laut Autonomiestatut gilt nur die Vollform „Provincia autonoma di Bolzano“! OK! So these guys are even more nuts than the folks on Wikipedia. That is some serious intolerance. The term Alto Adige predates Sudtirolo, is what is funny. It comes from the French in the early 1800s. Also, the words High Adige have been used from the beginning of history.. hilarious. What is in these guys pants that they can't just share?? It makes me really upset to know my cousins in BZ act this way. Icsunonove 19:58, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

I have no opinion on the Union, and I don't want to get involved in the details of BZ politics. Regarding Alto Adige, yes, it predates Südtirol (nothing to do with Tolomei). I just quoted this site because I could not find any better quotes from Bartaletti's work on the Internet. I assume that Bartaletti is a good-faith scientist. His list includes traditional names like Brennero and Dobbiaco that are dismissed as tolomeisms by those who wrote the Prontuario article.

BTW, I suspect that Marlengo is made up, place names ending in -ing are typical Austro-Bavarian names.  Andreas  ^(T) 20:30, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, it looks like in the 1100s the names used were Marnea, Marniga, Merniga, Marlinga, Marninga, etc., etc. Apparently the origins of the name are even pre-roman. Now names like Marlengo and Marling are used (probably in the dolomite Latin it is Marleng?). I mean, even these are just more variations, and indeed what name is not "made up"? :) Regardless, that they renovated that train station and couldn't bother to put another word up is just sad; given the point society in the EU should be at today. Icsunonove 20:40, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Good day Andreas. You know, I think part of the problem is the term itself, Italianized. I know with the adoption of Tuscan as the national language of Italy, it more or less blanketed the naming conventions of the country. The thing is the term Italianized makes it sound like there are these "Italians" somewhere renaming everything. But in fact some names were merely Tuscanized. You are right, Nones is similar to Ladin, and in my opinion they are both Roman/Italic languages. Of course they have lots of other influences, which has to happen in a multicultural meeting point like T-AA/ST. Anyway, the point I was gonna try to make is this: It sounds wrong to me for someone to say that Trent was "Italianized" to Trento, because it makes it sound as if it was "made Italian" (in the grander cultural sense). Part of this is the problem of Italians as well, because I've heard more than once people say they are not Italians, but this or that. I posed the question many times to Martin, "who are these so-called Italians and where are they located?". Never got an answer -- wonder why. :-) regards, Icsunonove 17:13, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Trento derives from the Latin Tridentum, following the general rule that Latin -um gives rise to Italian -o. The loss of the -o is secondary. The same holds for Bauzanum > Bolzano > Bulsan, Mediolanum > Milano > Milan etc. I am not a linguist, but I think that when Tuscan became widely used in the Peninsula, the Latin place names were still in use and gave rise to Italian place names that kept the -o, wheras in the various vernaculars the -o had already been dropped. I would think that this holds for most place names that end with an -o. Generally, many Italian (Tuscan) names are traditional in the sense that there is an uninterrupted evolution from the Latin forms. On the other hand, an -o was added to non-Tuscan place names such as in Tirolo. The name is of Germanic origin, the -o was added later, see http://www.dorftirol.com/tirol.htm . I suppose that the Italian Tirolo is pre-tolomeic, like Brennero, etc. In contrast, in the case of Marlengo and Moso, the -o was indeed added by Tolomei and his co-workers to make it sound more Italian.

Many BZ place names are Germanized Ladin names, such as Nova > Nofen. Because the use of Tuscan Italian was not generalized in todays BZ (as opposed to TN), there are very little authentic Ladin place names ending in -o apart from exonyms such as Brennero. In this sense, the Ladin place names "tuscanized" by Tolomei are (in my opinion) "invented", as are the names that have been translate such as Riobianco and Lagoverde. They did not exist before Tolemei.

Again, I am not a linguist, and I would be happy to know more about this because languages are one of my hobby. I tried to read the original introduction to Tolomei's list at http://xoomer.alice.it/tribunale/prontuario.pdf , but my Italian is too rudimentary to understand everything. It seems that Tolomei went to great length to justify the choice of the new names, but there were still casi irreducibili. Today, scientific toponomastics is much more advanced ane there have been more profound studies especially for BZ where the debate is still going on (a vote is expected in the Provincial legislature I think this year).  Andreas  ^(T) 20:27, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

For the exact origin of the word Tirol, I don't know for sure. I think no matter what you read, it is quite debatable, and will always be so. I do know that in the local Latin languages it is just Tirol, as it is in German. But even in the local Latin languages I believe you can say Tirolo, Tiroli, etc. For Riobianco and Lagoverde, I'm not really familiar with those places, so I don't know what they were called by the Latin speakers (maybe they did use something like Green Lake). Anyway, my opinion still would be, if the fellow invented new names out of the blue, that is just silly. But names like Brenner, I think people are just ignorant if they believe these are not Italian words as well. Back to inventions, I guess people at one point must have felt Bozen was an invented name when a Germanic guy said it like this for the first time, eh? :-) By the way, what is this vote about? take care, Icsunonove 20:48, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

The SVP will present a new bill on place names[5]. It appears that since the SVP has the majority in the legislature, this bill might actually go through, but as I said, I am not well informed on BZ politics.  Andreas  ^(T) 21:52, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Interesting; a bit surprised that even the gov't puts their time into such trivial matters, but nonetheless. My German isn't perfect; are they saying that they will look to determine what is the common name or names (plural) to register officially? I was already very disappointed with what I saw of that train station sign in Marlengo-Marling, but if they plan to do this all over BZ, that is a very crude. I see even on the SVP page they seem to refuse to even use the words Alto Adige in Italian, and instead use Sudtirolo. Surreal. o_O Icsunonove 00:39, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

According to the plans of the SVP, the macrotoponomastic (towns, larger rivers etc) will continue to be bilingual, whereas the microtoponomastic (street names, Flurnamen, i.e. piccoli corsi d’acqua, boschi, masi, cime sconosciute ecc) will be determined by the commune according to local usage[6] Andreas  ^(T) 14:06, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Ok, well I have to say for the most part that is reasonable. There is a case of multilingual naming being a bit crazy to a point. I hope they are careful though not to erase really historic names going back to Ladin-speaking eras. Anyway, I still sort of doubt the intentions of politicians even thinking they need to put their hands into something like this. There is obviously some agenda to satisfy some vocal minority. If you follow the history of Taiwan, you find very similar things to what goes on in AA/ST. Icsunonove 17:24, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Re Marling: The train station buildings do not belong to FS Italia but to the Province. They have been renovated as historic monuments [7]. The Marling building has been leased to the commune for 30 years and the renovation is done by the commune[8].  Andreas  ^(T) 14:22, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

I see, still doesn't make sense to me how they could do what they did. The renovation is very nice actually, but taking 5 minutes to put both names; that is crude behavior. It has to be done with some intention, because they would know it is provocative. Icsunonove 17:24, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

South Tyrol

Hi Andreas, a bit perplexed now over this name South Tyrol. I was looking at this old map of the Empire of Austria [9]. Clearly the County of Tyrol included what is now the Austrian state of Tirol and the Italian provinces of Trento and Bolzano. I know at some point they called the part that is Trentino, Welschtirol (i.e., Italian Tyrol), even though I'm not sure if at that time people were really speaking "Italian" (i.e., Tuscan) in that area. Anyway, so back to South Tyrol. Is this term a historic one really, or is it a more recent name based off the idea of putting back together the "German" area of the old County? I see that they now talk about a North Tyrol and East Tyrol with regard to the State of Tyrol, which makes sense since the state is split with Italy in between. Do you think this is where the South Tyrol term came out then, sometime post 1919 to imply fitting in into that puzzle? I even see on the County of Tyrol page they curiously left out Trentino. Anyway, just had me thinking about this recently, because in a way Trentino is in fact "South Tyrol" and Bolzano would be "Central" or "Middle" Tyrol. :-) Which would make more sense, since Tirol is in BZ. Icsunonove 00:00, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

You are absolutely right. South Tyrol or Südtirol as we know it today did not exist before 1919. The county, or better crown land (Kronland) of Tirol included todays Austrian State of TIrol, the Italian provinces of Bolzano and Trento and the Ampezzano, now part of the Province of Belluno. The term Trentino in its modern meaning is also relatively new, originally the term was used only for the area around Trento. There is even more confusion: the French term Haut Adige was introduced in Napoleonic times according to the model of French Départements, like Haut Rhin for Southern Alsace. Of course it comprised all of Tyrol south of the Brenner including today's Trentino. Note that under Napoleon, today's North Tirol became "Southern Bavaria", including the most Northern parts of the Adige and Isarco valleys. The name Tirol was completely banned by Napoleon (and not only in BZ as under Mussolini). So the partition of Tyrol between Germany (after the Anschluss) and Italy had a precedent in history...

It is interesting then that even the term Südtiroler has come up to describe a people. Personally I'd rather just hear Tiroler, or Tirolese. As someone from Trentino I know we have this Tirol culture as part of our own, Südtiroler unfortunately seems to imply something political. :-( Anyway, regarding Alto Adige, I think the word must have been used prior to Napoleon though, eh? Not in a administrative sense, but the area is, and always will be the Alto Adige afterall. :-) Just like the Alto Po, etc. Curious now of when the term South Tyrol was actually coined. I won't start my campaign, Trentino, the real South Tyrol :) Icsunonove 03:59, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

The Italian Alto Adige for today's BZ was coined by Tolomei after the French name. In the irredentist times, today's Region was known as Venezia Tridentina, although it had never anything to do with Venice.

Standard Italian was one of the languages officialy used in the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Don't forget that at its height, Austria included Milan, Venice and Trieste. In his introduction to the Prontuario, Tolomei wrote that the Italian names used by the Austrian administration in the Trentino can be use:

• Il Prontuario non comprende, per ragioni evidenti, né il Trentino, dove mgliaia e migliaia de nome dell Carta militare austriaca sono gli stessi nimi nostri [...]

so one can assume that Standard Italian was used in the Trentino even at the times when it was part of Tyrol.  Andreas  ^(T) 02:23, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

It is really quite interesting, because even now in Trentino I hear mostly people speaking, what they call dialect, the dolomite latin (i.e., ladin, rhaeto-romance, etc.). I still need to find out what Taio is called in Nones, even though I feel it is probably still just Taio. Of course Trento is Trent, Brennero, Brenner. That is why I felt it a bit funny when people say Trent is English and Brenner is German. Well, sure, but also they are the words of this regions old languages (which would make sense! :) Icsunonove 03:50, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Well

I have the magazine, but its in Finnish and I'm not sure I can translate it properly. T:Skele 13:39, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Province of BZ

Buon giorno professore, if you don't mind to check out the talk page I've put up a straw poll to relocate the modern province article. Icsunonove 17:58, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Mass confusion. :-) Icsunonove 22:04, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

• You meant his creation of Reschensee, eh? It actually inspired me to create a proper English page Lake Resia. It is really disturbing though to see this kind of intense aggression/anger from some editors (Emes, PhJ, and now Matthead). I don't think this is really typical of people in de, right? I mean, this is really bizarre. "The autonomy statute talks about Provinces of Trento and Bolzano as the Italian name, introduced and confirmed by the Fascists" and "As there was no Entnazifizierung, Fascism is still alive in Italy.". Eh? From what I've experienced the vast majority of the Italian people are very relaxed; even during Mussolini very few people went along with his nonsense. It wasn't at all what sadly happened in Japan and Germany. Icsunonove 00:41, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually I was aiming at Lothar Sieber. I had not even notice that he was involved in South Tyrol, I found out afterwards.  Andreas  ^(T) 00:48, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Hah! I guess there was more than one page ctrl-c/ctrl-v dump today. ;] I suppose, according to his his opinion, people in Italy will not be defascistized until they simply forget the words Bolzano, Adige, Isarco, etc. exist and say Sudtirolo out loud three times a day. :-) Anyway, still have the hope people will use these debates as a chance to learn and become wiser rather than... well, the typical case. Regards, Icsunonove 00:59, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

HAHAH! Nice one. :-) You indeed brightened my day after just having read [10]. Time to go home. Take care. Icsunonove 01:50, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

• Right, I'll try to have time to read the Pontuario. I have great sympathy for any person or people that are pushed down. But I have little sympathy for angry people like those I mentioned on your page. Nothing is every black-or-white, but they seem to have this incredibly biased view of what the reality is. Anyway, my method is simple. Include and cherish all the history/names/etc. It is a lot more interesting. Icsunonove 01:55, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

St. Urban's Church (Bystré)

You tagged St. Urban's Church (Bystré) as a copyvio of a Slovak source document. I have left a notice at WP:ANI to see if there is a Slovak speaking admin who can assess the situation. Just thought I'd let you know. Carlossuarez46 02:34, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

BZ

Could you give an opinion Andreas? Thanks, Icsunonove 17:28, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

You mean the naming of the article? I would prefer to stay out of this.  Andreas  ^(T) 18:05, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Ok, that is fine of course. We were just trying to get opinions on what is best form to use for the English name of the province (i.e. Province of ___??). Anyway, on to more interesting discussions. As promised, I found out what the Nones is for Taio. It appears to be simply Tai. Maybe I should add that to the Taio page; that will be an interesting project.  :-) Icsunonove 20:53, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

• Follow up. Actually, I found the info on Taio on the Italian Wikipedia at Nones. There is some references to Nones being a dialect of the Ladin (Ladino-Dolomitica) languages. It isn't clear to me exactly what the difference is between a dialect and language however. I know there are variations (dialects of dialects? :) of Nones just within the Val di Non. Anyway, some more city names they listed at IT WIKI: Coredo (Còret); Revò (Rvòu); Fondo (Fón); Cles (Clés). Icsunonove 21:11, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Got your message. Yeah, at this point I really don't have a clear idea of how the Standard Italian names came about in either TN or BZ. I still need to read Tolomei's "work" sometime soon. Somehow I'm still guessing he didn't really have such a big effect in the naming that some may be led to believe; except maybe for some of the villages more close to the current border with Austria. Just like Merano, I'm more under the impression that these Tuscanized names came about naturally. When speaking Ladin/Nones or Italian, the various names just somehow fit with the sounds of the language. This all sounds very un-scientific..hah! :-) Anyway just as we have Còret and Coredo, I tend to believe many of the variations in BZ happened well before Tolomei. Just like the Germanized variations on many of the original village names. For example, with Toblach it seems there was almost this natural progression in languages where the name was Duplago and kind of morphed into Doublach maybe from the newly arrived Germanic speakers (again because it fits the sounds of that group of languages). One last thing, from some research I've found many of the names that Tolomei and the Fascists created were removed awhile after WW2. I could find some examples given a bit of time. Icsunonove 00:05, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

South Tyrol location

Now that South Tyrol has been moved to Province of Bolzano-Bozen, if you care, please add your opinion on the future of South Tyrol here: Talk:Province_of_Bolzano-Bozen#Whither_South_Tyrol.3F. — AjaxSmack 00:41, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Talk:Val Passiria

Yes I know... the same old, boring conflict Italian vs German name, but I think in this case i have the Naming Conventions on my side. Maybe you're interested, Mai-Sachme 16:03, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Regarding your edit here: Offering some kind of rationale may be of great help, since such discussions are not majority votes and simple WP:ILIKEIT or WP:NOREASON votes are likely to be disregarded. —AldeBaer 17:48, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Sorry for the confusion, but the discussion unsheathed that Passeier Valley seems to be more common than Passeiertal. So I decided to change the request according to this result. If this fact should change your voting, please amend it. Mai-Sachme 17:09, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Province of Bolzano-Bozen (BZ)

If you could please put in your opinion at the talk page, as a certain user has returned. Icsunonove 00:45, 30 August 2007 (UTC)