Talk:Human/Archive 26

Real Anatomy

How did the cows get a nude Wikipedia photoshoot anyway? Our natural state seems to only exist as a cartoon. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.198.92.84 (talk) 19:00, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

"The cows?" What does that refer to?

I do agree with your comment about the illustration. I think that the reason for a drawing being used instead of an actual photograph is that using a picture of a single person would give them a seemingly elevated position, which would conflict with Wikipedia's Neutral Point of View policy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.126.150.158 (talk) 00:01, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Society

It seems to me that this section of the article resembles a brief synposis of articles on economics, war, etc, rather than emphasizing what place they have within human behaviour and sociology. I think it needs to be rewritten to convey specifically how humans have evolved these concepts, and what differentiates them from other species in that regard.

Ie. "Because of their technological development, humans have developed far more complex and destructive ways of conflict than any other species..." Something like that.

Does anyone agree?--24.85.171.109 10:01, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

War, shock and awe

I've removed 'shock and awe' from the sentence "Techniques have nearly always included hand to hand combat, the use of ranged weapons, propaganda and ethnic cleansing.". The shock and awe page states this doctrine was written in 1996, so it can't have been included before. I might look into this paragraph further. Calamarain 14:05, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Removing two instances of 'always' and one of 'important' have made this paragraph more accurate. It also seems less negative (NPOV) to me. Calamarain 09:17, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Environmental Effect

When I looked at this article, a section on "Destructive effects on the Environment" was written in a fairly harsh manner, and was also filled with typographical errors. I've tried to balance it out a little while still recognizing the inherent criticism. It could still use some more balance in terms of information, however.

That seems to be a recent section. It needs a lot more thorough referencing. Samsara (talk • contribs) 10:23, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Added to that, it is a loose collection of factoids and references to pop science works. It needs to be written in the same style as the rest of the article; anything that can be salvaged for other articles such as environmentalism, should be. Regards, Samsara (talk • contribs) 10:27, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree. What do you mean exacly by 'salvaging for the environmentalism article'? That the content in this paragraph shouldn't be here but in that article? Or do you mean that we can use text from the environmentalism article to improve this paragraph? I assume the first. Then, what article could be used to rewrite this paragraph? It seems to me it should be about the role of humans on earth (in the non religious sense) and the (mutual) influence of humans and the rest of nature. Human ecology perhaps is the right subject, but the that article is only about the science itself. Calamarain 09:53, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

This section still seems to be written from the point of view of an envrionmentalist, and is not objective. D prime 08:29, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Can you be more specific? -- Donald Albury 10:30, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

The tone implies that humans have done large "damage" to the environment and that we should be condemed for it. The section is esentially a long list of referneces to environmentalist statements and ideas. Every fact sighted supports an environmentalist view point, and there is no indication of there being a controversy of the extent or moral status of human influence on the Earth until the last sentence, which seems to say "WELL, despie ALL these OBVIOUS reasons why environmentalism is THE BEST, it's still (some how!) controversial! Can you believe it?" We should remind ourselves that environmentalism is still a mere opinion, and although certain concrete facts such as that the Earth is warming are scientific consensus, environmentalist theory in general is still a controversial idea. I believe there is a section in Wikipedia's guidelines concerning sections or articles in which everything specifically is true, but is written in way which implies bias. I believe it is called weasel words. D prime 02:28, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

What sourced material would you add to the section to balance it? What changes do you suggest in the wording of the section? While you could be bold and make changes to the section, I suggest discussing any major changes back here first. While I would call myself an environmentalist (of sorts), I haven't been involved in writing the section, and so am not attached to the particular form of the section. However, other editors who have spent more time on this article will want to participate in discussion of any major changes. -- Donald Albury 03:02, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Autoreview

The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question.

• Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (numbers), there should be a non-breaking space -   between a number and the unit of measurement. For example, instead of 24 inches, use 24 inches, which when you are editing the page, should look like: 24 inches.^[?]
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  • it has been
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Thanks, ffm ✎talk 14:12, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Pic

Wouldn't it be better to use a photo of a human, instead of a drawing? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.137.161.44 (talk) on 20:27, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

You may note a lack of interest in this suggestion. This is because there have been numerous lengthly debates here about that very thing. Yet here we are with the drawing. Feel free to look back through the archives at all the discussion spent on this topic, and if you know of an image on Commons which addresses everyone's concerns, feel free to post a link here. KillerChihuahua^?!? 20:31, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, it seemed good enough to be used by NASA on the Pioneer plaque. ffm ✎talk 20:32, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

One of the problems with the wikipedia .svg image is the file format. There are better formats which are not as blobby. http://grin.hq.nasa.gov/IMAGES/LARGE/GPN-2000-001623.jpg Might it be possible to use a .jpg format for the image? --Ancheta Wis 08:55, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

It saves loading time, .jpg files are generally too big to look as good as vector based files [2]Markthemac 04:51, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

This svg is a terrible conversion, with much detail lost. You can't just run an automated SVG conversion and expect good results. —Pengo 05:55, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Needs to be Changed

"From AD 1800 to 2000, the human population increased from one to six billion." This is clearly an inaccuracy in the article and should be corrected.--— Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.173.179.181 (talk • contribs) 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Sounds about right to me. What do you think it should be changed to?--Filll 21:22, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

See World population, figure is correct. TimVickers 21:29, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Maybe anon thinks it should read "From 6030 BC to 2007 the human population increased from two to 6.6 billion"? <ducks> ... perhaps one billion to six billion would be clearer?? ... dave souza, talk 22:27, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Ah, I see the problem. Yes, one billion to six billion would be much clearer. TimVickers 23:31, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Should this

History / Evolution

"Anatomically modern humans appear in the fossil record in Africa about 130,000 years ago."

be changed to

"Anatomically modern humans appear in the fossil record in Africa about 164,000 years ago."

?

This article refers: http://asunews.asu.edu/20071016_earlyhumans

Markp93 13:08, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

"See also" section

We need to discuss the "see also" section, which currently contains two articles about fossils and one about history. Why should the article for "Human" primarily link to fossils, of all things? Wouldn't "see also" links to, say, Man, Woman, Race, People, and other such basic concepts related to "Human" be more appropriate? I mean, when I think about cöncepts related to "Human", list of fossil sites really isn't very high on the list. --Ashenai 09:15, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Science and Technology - Evolution

The discovery of evolution should be mentioned in this section because it makes evident our knowledge of conscious existence. We know where we came from and that is a major breakthrough for a species. We are aware of what we really are. --Antonio.sierra 19:20, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I think the fact that the article has sections devoted to evolution, biology and culture is enough to get your idea across. There is also sentence in the first paragraph that says, "Humans have a highly developed brain capable of abstract reasoning, language, and introspection," and there are little sentences peppered throughout the article that suggest this. B3nnic33 13:37, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I believe this article should be edited as to only include facts, and remove any information that would be considered religious beliefs or scientific theories, such as creation (religious) or the big bang(scientific). All should be facts, period.ThundertamerS 17:34, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

If this article were to refer only to factual information, it could not include the evolution theory, as by definition a theory has not been proven. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rumyr (talk • contribs) 19:34, August 30, 2007 (UTC)

Evolution is not a theory, it is a fact. Evolution has been proven but changing the envirnments animals live in, such as oxygen concentration and temperature, the animals then develop differently to suit the environment better, which is the purpose of evolution. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eddieebo (talk • contribs) 04:48, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Please read the policy on Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, ThundertamerS. This will hopefully answer your questions. Tim Vickers 17:50, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Rumyr, you're confusing the use of "theory" in conversation (which some use as a synonym for "hunch" or "guess") with scientific theory, which is much different. A theory in science is a logically consistent model for explaining a phenomenon that is testable. The "theory of evolution" aims to explain the phenonenon, just as the theory of gravity aims to explain why we stick to the ground. Would you make the argument that gravity hasn't been proven? Leebo ^T/C 19:45, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Show me your proof that Gravity actually exists. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.130.77.30 (talk) 05:06, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

question

are there or have there ever been homo sapiens of a subspecies other than sapiens?

See Human evolution. Tim Vickers 20:01, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

changing pictures?

In the religion section, there are two images, both of Hinduism. Should one be changed to represent another major religion? There are also two Rodin sculptures in this article (The Kiss and The Thinker). Should The Kiss be changed to another image representing love/sexuality? If so, does anyone have any ideas. The market picture under economics is also very hard to make out. Is there a better image that could be used? Calliopejen1 05:41, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

On the hinduism images, where are they? On the sculptures by Rodin, Why should it be changed? See WP:AINT. ffm 15:05, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Science and Technology: Big Bang & Age of the Universe

Is the paragraph on the Big Bang and Age of the Universe really relevant to the article on 'Human'. Science has discovered many things, why is this singled out for inclusion (in such a long winded fashion). I think it should be chopped or reduced to a single sentence. Ashmoo 10:36, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Lead image

Shouldn't we have a picture of a human or humans (perhaps images of people from several different races and of different age such as children or elderly people) rather than a black and white picture? Most animal articles use a photograph or at least a life-like colour illustration at the main image. The problem here of course is whether to have a clothed or naked human, but since most people wear clothes in their normal behavior I see no reason not to just have pictures of normal people; if a crab camouflages itself with algae and such debris in it's normal behavior I doubt a picture of it would be deemed unsatisfactory unless it was removed. Of course, an morphological and/or anatomical picture, but that could go further down (though we don't seem to have an anatomy section?) Richard001 09:27, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

It's an old topic. See Talk:Human#Pic above. -- Donald Albury 20:09, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

physicology

This is not to be laughed at! Physicology needs editing and I'm only a chemist do i don't really into Phsicology.

if you are a phsycologist it would be very good if you edit the page.

Hey idiot, psychology or physiology?, I didn't see an article combining the two eg. "physichology" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eddieebo (talk • contribs) 04:56, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Grammar

"Humans are an eukaryotic species." Should it not be "Humans are a eukaryotic species", since 'eukaryote' is pronounced 'you-karyote'? Aristeaus 08:03, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Mythology and religion

"Humans are also noted for their desire to understand and influence the world around them, seeking to explain and manipulate natural phenomena through science, philosophy, mythology and religion."

Shouldn't be mythology understood, in this context, as "ancient religion"? I think there's no reason to separate both here. What do you think? --Taraborn 21:44, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure, since something like Beowulf is certainly mythology, but not really religious. Tim Vickers 22:33, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Well shouldn't religion be included in mythology, there is the same amount of truth to anciet religions as modern day ones? Why is Jesus and God/Allah (whatever) considered real but the Romans are told that there religion is a myth, or the Aborigines, Egyptians, Greeks, Incas ect...? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eddieebo (talk • contribs)

Distinction isn't between real and unreal beliefs, it's between differing elements of religion. Bible stories for instance make up the mythology of christianity, but they are by no means the whole of it, there's also baptism, confirmation, church, reciting the credo, or proselytising, none of which are rightly considered "mythology", but are all elements of various flavours of christianity. – ornis⚙ 05:22, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Summary of human reproduction

It would be wise for someone to insert a summary about human reproduction. For example, if you go to the wolf page, in article section 1.2 (designated "Courtship and mating") and article section 1.3 (designated "Reproduction"), you can see that there is a very clear outline of wolves natural reproductive behaviour. I believe the same outline should be given for humans natural reproductive behavior.

I believe the information contained in the human article section 2.2 (designated "Life cycle") and article section 3.3 (designated "Love and sexuality"), is insufficient and should be more detailed. I realise that humans are adaptive creatures and depending on their social beliefs and culture their sexual behaviour can change to suit the needs of that society of which they belong to, but there is a natural instinctive reproductive behaviour in humans, as with other animals, which should be addressed in this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.129.43.198 (talk) 01:20, August 27, 2007 (UTC)

Lame "Dysgenics" Section

{{RFCsci!!reason=Should the Human article contain a section on Dysgenics?}} As the article is protected and I don't have an account, could someone please get rid of this lame "Dysgenics" section? It's clearly racist, pointless in its self-contradiction, and generally a poor contribution to this article. 206.253.219.50 21:00, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

This material is controversial and poorly-sourced. I have moved it to the talk page so we can discuss if it should be in the article or not. Tim Vickers 21:25, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Dysgenics

Further information: Dysgenics

Nobel Prize winner William Shockley has put forward the theory that the average individual in a civilization may eventually become weaker through the process of dysgenics. In his book Shockley on Eugenics and Race, Shockley claims that this process occurs because the most intelligent actually reproduce least leaving the population less able to perform higher functions. This effect is presently being observed in almost every country on earth in a process known as the Demographic-economic paradox. Shockley further claims that the high population growth rate of blacks and intermarriage between blacks and other races are likely to cause another global societal collapse, due to their lower IQs (see Race and intelligence).

Demographic studies generally indicate that the more intelligent and better educated women in affluent nations have much lower reproductive rates than the less educated, which has led to concern regarding the future of intelligence in these nations. The most cited work is Vining's 1982 study on the fertility of 2,539 U.S. women aged 25 to 34; the average fertility is correlated at -0.86 in IQ for white women and -0.96 for black women, and indicated a drop in the genotypic average IQ of 1.6 per generation for the white population and 2.4 points per generation for the black population. A 2004 study by Richard Lynn and Marian Van Court returned similar results, with the genotypic decline measuring at 0.9 IQ points per generation for the total sample and 0.75 IQ points for whites only. In contradiction with this finding is the "Flynn Effect", based upon the fact that "performance on IQ tests has increased with each generation". For example with Raven's Progressive Matricies "People tested in 1992 scored 27 points higher on average than people of the same age had scored in 1942". Discussing these effects, Science reporter John Horgan concludes "The Flynn effect highlights the vital (if mysterious) role that culture plays in intelligence, at least as it is measured by IQ tests. It also suggests that, contrary to The Bell Curve, environmental interventions may close the gaps in IQ scores between different groups.

---

Tim, before you make any changes, please read the rules of this encyclopedia. It is very well sourced, has a balanced POV, and there are three other major articles each with countless sources on this site alone dedicated to the topic that users have decided overwhelmingly to keep (Dysgenics, Race and intelligence, Eugenics) and numerous articles about related topics such as William Shockley. Before you remove anything, take it to the talk page, not the other way around. Gold Nitrate 00:27, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Let me add that this is not racism but a compilation of facts that have become accepted enough to make it to many mainstream publications such as The Bell Curve. In my expert opinion, that section is vital. Gold Nitrate 00:33, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Addition of this material does not yet have consensus. Please discuss this on the talk page, rather than simply replacing the controversial section. Sourcing an entire section from a blog and a single article in an obscure journal is unacceptable. Moreover, why is this twice as notable (comparing length of sections in the Human article) as "language"? This appears to me to simply be a neologism for eugenics. Tim Vickers 01:31, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

On an article such as this the onus is on people adding material to show it is an improvement, not the other way around. When people have worked on an article for several years and got it up to GA status, it doesn't require a detailed discussion before material can be removed. There is already a large amount on culture and society. I tend to agree with Tim that it is a bit long in relation to other sections, and I also point out too much of it is on intelligence. A very concise summary of the article, at most half its current length, may be appropriate. It would be advisable to discuss it first and then add it if it has approval. Richard001 03:12, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Aside from the good sources, and the balance in POV, the only other factor is notability, and it definitely has achieved notability through many mainstream publications, both formal and casual.

An unrigerous examination of even more sources and publications can be made through looking at the main articles Dysgenics and Race and intelligence which users have already voted overwhelmingly to keep and is longer than the language main article and clearly related to humans. Gold Nitrate 03:49, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree with TimVickers that this is at best placing undue weight on this topic. The article probably merits a very brief mention of intelligence and heredity, but little if any of this material is appropriate. If any such material is included it should come from review articles and/or textbooks; it's such a contentious area that anyone trying to write a balanced treatment directly from the work of proponents of each side of the argument will almost inevitably cross the border into original research in order to distill the material into an appropriate concise chunk. For the time being at least, that section should be removed from the article.--ragesoss 04:25, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Again you're using a bad line of reasoning here, G.N. The length of an article is of no relevance whatever. There are very important articles that are stubs or non-existent. Controversial or popular topics are often disproportionately long.

Having read dysgenics now I see than you have basically added a little of the lead together with a few sections from the main body. This doesn't result in a good summary of the topic. I would recommend starting by writing a quality lead section for that article first.

If this isn't to have a separate section, it might also be added to human evolution. The human race is probably evolving faster now than ever before, and current and future evolution is just as relevant as our past history. Richard001 05:47, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

• The section is inappropriate. Just because we have lots of articles about a subject, and the subject is about human beings does not mean that it should be in the article about humans. There are already sections about human evolution and race and ethnicity, and those are subjects of the appropriate depth (very, very deep indeed) for this article. As dysgenics is a topic under both of those categories, it doesn't need to be in the article itself. Enuja 22:20, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

• I agree, responding to the RFC. I have no opinion for or against the theory of dysgenics. It appears to be a theory about the interaction of anthropological, sociological, and evolutionary forces upon humanity. As such, it would most appropriately be referred to in Wikipedia's existing article on the topic Human evolution. The Human evolution article would be appropriate to refer to in this article about humanity in general. VisitorTalk 02:24, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Dharmic religions

The phrase dharmic religions is an obscure neologism with almost only fringe sources using it and should be removed from articles that do not describe this theoriess or their main proponents. This is not just my personal crusade to reduce use of this phrase in Wikipedia. See Wikipedia_talk:Hinduism-related_topics_notice_board#Dharmic_Religions. Andries 21:13, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

The article is currently in AfD, which you started. You are also "raiding" the "what links here" list for that article, so your actions can be easily interpreted as a personal crusade. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:28, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Even if the article is kept then the term is overused and is inappropriate here. Do you deny this? If you deny this then please show the many peer reviewed sources or even one scholarly book about the concept or classification of dharmic religions. If the term remain here then in this very basic unrelated article then the phrase must have many multiple scholarly treatments. Andries 21:33, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

The AFD was triggered mainly because it was noticed that the phrase was overused in Wikipedia and in addition the article did not have reputable sources worth the name . Andries 21:42, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

I suggest I or JohnBodI file a Wikipedia:request for commment. Andries 21:47, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Certainly no one will bother with this whilst the AfD is running. Johnbod 22:27, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

The AFD is hardly related. I admit that there is place in Wikipedia for rather obscure topics, but it should not be used in important articles such as these. Andries 22:36, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

I replaced Abrahamic religions with Judaism and Dharmic religions with Hinduism. Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, Jainism and Sikhism did not exist at 2000BCE. Andries 22:38, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

This article sounds odd

This article sounds like Here, for it assumes that the reader is not human. Well, it does sound more encyclopedic like that, but still... Marlith ^T/C 02:22, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Mmmmm....good point... ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:24, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

The article switches from being said in a third person view to first person many times...one example is "We are also noted for our desire to understand and influence the world around them,". It needs to be changed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.101.41.107 (talk) 12:06, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Are all Wikipedia editors human? Marlith ^T/C 04:16, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Personally, I have to say that I strongly dislike the use of the word "we" in the article. It just comes off as unencyclopedic in tone... it feels like the article is having a friendly chat with me, talking about all the things the two of us (that is, me and this wikipedia article) have in common as humans. I would strongly opt to strip all usage of 'we' and similar constructs from the article on that basis... it simply does not read in an encyclopedic tone. --Aquillion 08:20, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I feel inhuman reading this article, myself... but, of the two, I would choose a third-person viewpoint, since it does sound most encyclopedic. --Partymetroid 07:05, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Bias toward civilization

Perhaps unwittingly, there were some biases in the article with regard to civilization. For instance, there was no mention that some human communities still live successfully as hunter-gatherers and there was a point about stable food sources only existing with agriculture (I doubt the countless other animals would agree).

I will be reading over this article in depth later to see if there is anything else that could be changed.

Humans have only lived in civilizations for the past 10,000 years and it looks like the older way was working out better for us, for more information see works by: Derrick Jensen, Daniel Quinn, John Zerzan. Or see: anarcho-primitivism
--Briansaccount 03:48, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

To help you be less violently biased, here are a couple of books you might want to read and reference:

Sick Societies: Challenging Primitive Harmony

The Myth of the Peaceful Savage —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.148.196.183 (talk) 07:10, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

NPOV

They say Wikipedia can sound a bit impersonal, but it has really out done itself in this sentence: "It is said that humans originated in Africa about 200,000 years ago ... but they now inhabit every continent....

Who was this article written by and for? Have dogs been trained to read or aliens contacted? I think that when talking about the human species, if at no time else, we may use some personal pronouns!

Bendykst 01:43, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

I know it's wierd phrasing but consistancy and encylopedic tone are held in high esteem here. --78.147.8.206 23:41, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

"Humans say that...."? :-) Steve Dufour 02:15, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Extinct in the Wild

Why have humans been listed as extinct in the wild? according to wikipedia's own extinct int he wild page that means that they can only be found in "captivity or as a naturalized population outside its historic range" it's simple to see that humans are not in some type of alien zoo, so it can't be the first half of that, and humans are living on every continent of the earth, that would seem to suggest to me that we have expanded beyond our "historic range" am I wrong with this thougth? is there some reasoning to this status? Lyynn 00:39, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

It was vandalism. David D. (Talk) 08:14, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

No, I was serious. Except for a few isolated incidents all humans now live in a society of some sort. Should humans ever have a conservation status area? It seems rather useless. Syphon8 21:23, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

It was certainly of a higher calibre than the usual nonsense.  –  ornis⚙ 08:45, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Remove the stance "with only small minorities fully heterosexual or homosexual". You can compare the number of fully heterosexals with that of fully homosexuals only if you are a real (and read REAL) idiot. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.122.34.226 (talk) 14:58, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Current Evolution

There is no doubt that the human population continues to undergo evolution, a topic which has gained renewed interest when the new research was published. I added the section in the light of the overwhelming evidence supporting inherent differences and fertility between humans. Gold Nitrate 17:44, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Please list these new research publications and discuss this controversial addition on the talk page. This section was overwhelmingly rejected last time you tried to put it in the article, so please explain what has changed. Tim Vickers 17:51, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Look at the number of new sources. There has been such a remarkable change since September that the information is deemed far too important to be not included. Gold Nitrate 17:54, 20 October 2007 (UTC)