Talk:List of best-selling video games

GTA PSP at 1.5m

According to New York Times. Unfortunately, they do not specify whether it is LCS, VC or both. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 05:20, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Ranking order

We should decide on a ranking order for game titles and franchises that have sold the same number of copies. I propose ranking titles that are tied in copies sold:

• by alphabetical order (there are other methods of ranking the titles that I can think of, but I think alphabetically would be the easiest)
• with titles/franchises that have "shipped" 10 million copies being placed below titles/franchises that have "sold" 10 million copies

Deciding on a way to rank game titles that are tied in sales will prevent users from ranking a title or franchise to their preference (example). --Silver Edge (talk) 11:25, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the shipped/sold one. This way we can add shipping sales. The alphabetical order sounds fine, although I have always preferred the FIFO one (the game released the earliest first, because 1) between a game that has sold 10 million units as of 2004 and another which sold 10 million units as of 2007, the former has 3 years of chances of selling more than one that just reached it; 2) the title released earlier was, usually, in a smaller install base than the newer one, making it more successful at the time than the current one. However, both are pretty subjective. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 14:31, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Should alphabetical order be used then? If one of the two FIFO methods you mentioned were used, what would be used as a reliable source for release dates? GameSpot? And wouldn't the release dates of some older games be difficult to find? --Silver Edge (talk) 23:01, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Alphabetical appears to be the most reasonable and neutral option. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 01:04, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Removing unnecessary spaces and quotation marks in citations

As of this version, the article is 107,128 bytes in size, with citations contributing to a large portion of it. I propose the removal of unnecessary spaces in citations and the removal of quotation marks in <ref name="?"> tags in an attempt to lower the size of the article for users with slow Internet connections. There is really no need for a space before and after a citation parameter separator (|), perhaps only a space before it; the space between * and '' that are found prior to the game title is also unneeded. The <ref name="?"> tags can be used without quotation marks.

For example:
* ''[[The Sims]]'' (16 million shipped)<ref name="thesims" />
* ''[[The Sims 2]]'' (13 million)<ref name="sims2">{{cite web | url=http://www.info.ea.com/news/pr/pr972.pdf | format=PDF | title=Sims Fans Embark On Exotic Travels as Ea Announces The Sims 2 Bon Voyage | publisher=[[Electronic Arts]] | date=2007-07-26 | accessdate=2007-12-03}}</ref>

would be changed to:
*''[[The Sims]]'' (16 million shipped)<ref name=thesims/>
*''[[The Sims 2]]'' (13 million)<ref name=sims2>{{cite web |url=http://www.info.ea.com/news/pr/pr972.pdf |format=PDF |title=Sims Fans Embark On Exotic Travels as Ea Announces The Sims 2 Bon Voyage |publisher=[[Electronic Arts]] |date=2007-07-26 |accessdate=2007-12-03}}</ref>

--Silver Edge (talk) 11:30, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I think the article is well beyond that. Even if we do that, and remove the space between the leading * or # and the first apostrophe, we would only lower the article size 2kb. 2kb does a difference when the article is 16kb, but not when it is 102kb. We should consider, again, splitting the article, beginning with the franchise section. For this, I suggest listing the top 10 franchises in this article, with a {{main}} template pointing to List of best-selling video game franchises, with the full list (and by splitting we can also make the franchise list accept series with more than 5 million units instead of 10 million). We may be able to create a table for the franchise list, with number of games and initial release date too. Once the franchise list is consolidated, we can consider splitting the PC and top PC list in another article (since we only mix PC and console games in the franchise list). A rough test (previewing the article without the franchise list, I know this is not exact since some references may have to be copied from it to the main article) gives us an 87kb article, and without the PC sections, just 70kb.

Note that I favor keeping everything here, since it is much easier to update a single article, but since the article is over 80kb that I get an error message most times I try editing the full article. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 14:22, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I also occasionally get the error message when reverting and editing the entire article, and I would also rather have all the sections stay here, but if the "Franchises" section can be expanded on if it is split off into its own article then I'm not going to object to that. We can decide on splitting the "PC" section if or when the "Franchises" section is split off. --Silver Edge (talk) 00:12, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

I have finished for now. I have added 13 franchises with between 5m and 10m, the Harry Potter one with 20m and the Yu-Gi-Oh! one with 17.5m. Some references are terribly outdated (the Twisted Metal one dates back year 2000!). And I would like to transform the GTA one to {{cite video}} but I cannot access the video at all. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 07:24, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

I have verified the references in the "Atari 2600", "Xbox", and "Xbox 360" sections, except the source for Project Gotham Racing, which is a video, since I have no sound on this PC. Also, the source for Demon Attack (Atari 2600) calls the game "Demon Magic". I'm going to sort some of the sections then call it a night. --Silver Edge (talk) 07:50, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

I've completed sorting out all ties into alphabetical order. --Silver Edge (talk) 11:30, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Updating references

Here is a musing I have had for some time: should we switch to newer references, even if the sales number is the same? There is a reason and a counterpoint:

• By replacing the 2004 reference with 10 million sold for a 2007 reference with 10 million sold, we are keeping the unit sales updated.
• However, we lose the historical data that the game has already sold 10 million back in 2004.

I haven't been replacing references because, as I explained above, I have given more priority when sorting to a game that reached a milestone before another. What do you think? -- ReyBrujo (talk) 14:41, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I prefer keeping the older references, so we know when a game sold x million copies; although, other users have complained that the sources used in this article are "outdated". Also, when I want to add a sales figure to a video game article, I usually check here first to see if the title is listed. Then I insert "As of [month day, year], the game sold x million copies worldwide" using the date provided from the source, since I want to indicate at what time the game sold that amount.--Silver Edge (talk) 00:18, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Kingdom Hearts II

Should Kingdom Hearts II be changed from 3.5 million shipped to 1.7 million sold in the US ? It's kind of odd that KH2 shipped over 1.7 million in North America and sold 1.7 million in the US; also note that the "sold" source was published 1 day after the "shipped" source (February 5 and 6, 2007). Coincidence?--Silver Edge (talk) 11:46, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Another option (with unspecified consequences) is to include both (1.7 million sold, 3.5 million shipped). I would agree with the "sold better than shipped" line of thinking, though. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 18:22, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Featured List?

Is this one ready? It looks it, very complete for an incomplete list :) Judgesurreal777 (talk) 17:55, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it would even become a good article, because it is simply a list with no commentary, regardless of how many press media quote it, or the number of reliable references used. The only way we can make it a featured list is by adding some critical commentary, but that would make this list extremely long (and we are trying to decrease its size to make it easier to navigate). I will try something with the franchise list, which is small enough to work with, though. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 18:20, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

StarCraft includes Brood War

I believe StarCraft should stay in this list as well. While it is true the 9.5m given in the reference is for the franchise, which includes Brood War, it is also true that Brood War is an expansion pack (you cannot play Brood War alone, you need to have StarCraft installed). At this moment, the 9.5m is valid for both the single game and the franchise, since there is only one main StarCraft game released. It is a similar situation with Guild Wars. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 03:50, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

• I would just like to add that the Vivendi document is ambiguous as to whether Brood War is counted or not, as no definition is given for "franchise" so expansions as opposed to distinct games in a series may not be included. Both USA Today[1] and the NY Times[2] have Blizzard giving the 9.5 million number as the sales of the original game itself, not the original game plus the expansion. Indrian (talk) 04:40, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually if you look on page 19 of the Vivendi document [3] it shows a breakdown of what games are considered part of the Warcraft, Diablo, and StarCraft franchises, and StarCraft and Brood War are listed in the StarCraft franchise column, so the StarCraft franchise in that document includes Brood War. An MSNBC article states: "'StarCraft,' and the expansion 'Brood Wars,' have sold nearly 10 million units." [4]--Silver Edge (talk) 04:55, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, I did indeed miss that. Blizzard still appears to be bandying about that 9.5 million number for the original game alone, however. Could be puffery, but seeing as most of the numbers used here are drawn from numbres released by a company to toot its own horn, this whole list probably has more than its fair share of puffery, so I do not see a reason not to take Blizzard at its word as reported by the papers. Indrian (talk) 05:19, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Wouldn't we need to use the same reference for this list and the franchise one? I don't like having 9.5m here and 10m there... :-/ -- ReyBrujo (talk) 09:34, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

It does seem kind of silly as you say, but we definately have two newspaper articles claiming a 9.5 million figure number for Starcraft alone as well as an article from an equally reputable source that says 10 million for the franchise. In such a situation, we may just have to give every side of the story and let the reader sort it out. Such is the inexact science of video game sales. Indrian (talk) 13:05, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

In the Blizzard press release, released a few days prior to the three news articles, it states: "To date, the series has sold more than 9.5 million copies worldwide." The USA Today and NY Times articles probably used that franchise sales figure as the sales figure for StarCraft. So based on the official press release, shouldn't the StarCraft entry be changed to specify that the figure includes the Brood War expansion? --Silver Edge (talk) 09:44, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Halo Franchise

Okay, I know that I will get a lot of hate for saying this, but I honestly believe that Marathon is a part of the Halo series and that Marathon's sales should be included with the Halo franchise. Maybe I am insane and no one will agree with me, but I have to try. I don't know if Marathon has significant sales, I think it has about 35,000 for Xbox 360 alone, and who knows how much for Windows pc, Mac and Pippin. You don't have to agree with me, but come on, consider it? 142.165.59.39 (talk) 06:37, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

We let the game developers decide what is included into each franchise. So, it is up to Microsoft. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 09:48, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Wow, someone taking me seriously! Thanks, someone should talk to Microsoft...

142.165.59.39 (talk) 07:51, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Colin McRae: DiRT

According to this,

On its release in June 2007, Colin McRae: DiRT topped the US best-seller charts for titles on the Xbox 360® video game and entertainment system from Microsoft®, and has sold more than one million copies to date.

Can this be interpreted as "Xbox 360 version sold 1m copies"? It is ambiguous, I know. The PC version could have helped, and maybe the Australian(?) release of the game for PS3. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 22:01, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Inconsistency in numbers

In case of Super Mario World, the number of copies sold is 20 million on the list for SNES, while it is 17 million under the summarized list of Top 20 console games of all time in the Bundled games part. The sources for these figures state different values, also. If someone has more accurate information, please, correct the numbers for consistency. Csdani84 (talk) 15:19, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

You are right. We will use the 20m one because it is a newer reference. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 15:39, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Question on sales numbers

Just curious, why isn't vgchartz a good source? All the numbers etc are calculated from real sales data (NPD etc)? How is it any different from a half the sites sourced that also use the same numbers? Also that many wiki game pages etc source vgcharts too :S Mjohnnyg (talk) 12:29, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

It has been discussed a lot of times. I made a briefing of the discussion here. Basically, VGChartz is not a real representative of sales information since they modify data based on untrusted algorithms. Whenever the media begins using their data regularly (just like the media uses NPD data regularly) they may be considered reliable. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 15:29, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Winning Eleven 6

According to this (the reference I am using for Yu-Gi-Oh! Forbidden Memories, The Computer & Video Games segment, taking advantage of the soccer boom in Japan, marked a new record with combined sales of over 1.8 million copies of WORLD SOCCER WINNING ELEVEN 6 and WORLD SOCCER WINNING ELEVEN 6: Final Evolution for the PlayStation 2. We currently have a reference that states it sold 1m only. However, it is not clear here whether both titles are only for PlayStation 2, or if World Soccer Winning Eleven 6 is only for PlayStation, while Final Evolution is for PS2. Thoughts? -- ReyBrujo (talk) 05:00, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

The Sims

While our current reference says 16 million, Eurogamer just stated that the original game plus addons sold 29 million. Should we keep the current one, replace it with this one, or mix both (like 16 million, 29 million counting addons). Mostly because for Guild Wars we have the numbers for the game and extensions, which seems usual for computer games. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 19:01, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I suggest using both. Maybe Guild Wars should be removed from the "PC" section since the sales figure consists of three stand alone games and one expansion pack with the reference itself stating "The Guild Wars franchise has sold more than 4.5 million units..." --Silver Edge (talk) 05:06, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Weren't those one game plus three extensions? -- ReyBrujo (talk) 17:09, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

(indent) The Guild Wars series consists of three standalone games (the original Guild Wars, Guild Wars Factions, Guild Wars Nightfall) and one expansion pack (Guild Wars: Eye of the North). All the games released after the original Guild Wars have additional skills, items, and campaigns/missions, etc. Factions and Nightfall have additional professions/classes and doesn't require having the original Guild Wars to play. To better explain Guild Wars, I'll quote from the official Guild Wars website:

http://www.guildwars.com/products/guildwars/features/default.php#release

• Am I required to buy the new chapters in order to continue to play Guild Wars?

No. Every purchase you make in the continuation of the Guild Wars saga will be your choice. If you purchase new chapters, you will gain access to new regions of the world, new skills and abilities, new items, new professions, and much more. And of course such a purchase will support the continued development of the game. However, if you choose not to purchase a chapter, you will still be able to play the chapters of Guild Wars that you own, and you will have common areas in which you will be able to play with and against your friends who have purchased the other chapter(s).

http://www.guildwars.com/products/nightfall/features/nightfall-faq.php#release

• Is Nightfall an expansion pack or a stand-alone game?

Nightfall is a stand-alone product. Those who own Prophecies and/or Factions are not required to purchase Nightfall in order to continue playing on their game account, and those who purchase Nightfall may play it without purchasing Prophecies and/or Factions. However, there is a high level of interconnection between the three games that makes having all of them an exceptional experience.

http://www.guildwars.com/products/eyeofthenorth/features/eyeofthenorth-faq.php

• Do I need to own a copy of one of the previous Guild Wars campaigns in order to play Guild Wars: Eye of the North?

Yes, because Eye of the North is an expansion rather than a new campaign—and because it is intended for your high-level characters—you need to own at least one of the Guild Wars campaigns—Guild Wars (the original campaign), Guild Wars Factions, or Guild Wars Nightfall—in order to play Guild Wars: Eye of the North. However, you do not need to complete any of the previous campaigns to play GW:EN.

So you can either play Factions or Nightfall without the requirement of the original Guild Wars, while the expansion pack Eye of the North, requires one of the three standalone games. --Silver Edge (talk) 19:58, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Nintendo new numbers

As always, Nintendo released their new millions sellers list http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/pdf/2008/080125e.pdf (189.26.138.209 (talk) 11:47, 25 January 2008 (UTC))

Thanks, we have updated the numbers with the new reference. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 16:25, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Halo 3 and Call of Duty 4

The Halo 3 number is wrong, Microsoft lists a sold to retail number. A shipment number. This is proven by Activisions financial statement that Call of Duty 4 was the number #1 selling game of 2007 at 7 million. (http://investor.activision.com/releasedetail.cfm?ReleaseID=289631) They have the GFK and NPD data, and they claimed so in an official document so they can't lie about it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.200.205.229 (talk) 18:37, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

The seven million figure for Call of Duty 4 includes the Xbox360, PS3, and Windows versions - not just the Xbox360 version. -Zomic13 (talk) 23:39, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Also, Microsoft article says "The Xbox 360's biggest game to date also received a sales update, as Microsoft revealed that it had sold 8.1 million copies of Halo 3 since its September release. Combined with the hardware base, this suggests that nearly 46 percent of Xbox 360 owners have purchased a copy of the Bungie-developed shooter." Where does it say it is sold to retailers? -- ReyBrujo (talk) 23:53, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I do realise the Call of Duty 4 number is spread over 3 consoles, but it also proves the Halo 3 number is too high. I'm not trying to add CoD4, I'm trying to get the Halo 3 number correct. It is lower than And we know the 8.1 million from Microsoft is a shipped number because they work with shipped numbers. Here is the prove they use shipment numbers for the 360 when they announced it is at 17.7 million, so I highly doubt they use sold numbers for Halo 3. http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=17106 81.240.181.162 (talk) 09:06, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

PSP games

An anonymous added three games to the PSP section using this as reference. The article is from apparently a reliable source by itself. However, the numbers come from Wikipedia, which in time picked them from the old VGChartz site. I found this comment at Joystiq which shows that the Ridge Racer number of Wikipedia at that time was the same as the one in the article. And when checking the April 21, 2006 version of this page, the source is www.everythingandnothing.org.uk/vg/worldtotals.php, which is nowadays offline. However, a quick check at the web archive shows that its last version was a redirect to VGCharts, the previous site for VGChartz. What others think about using that GWN article with numbers from VGChartz at the time for references here? I still find incredible that no site has ever released their own data stating any of those three games sold over a million copies, especially considering the limited number of PSP titles breaking that mark. Personally, I would not have objection, because if a reliable site (as I think GWN is) picked the information and considered it reliable, it could be used. However, I know many object those numbers on sight, that is why I would like to hear feedback about this matter first. -- ReyBrujo (talk) 04:11, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Guitar Hero III has sold 1.2 million on the Wii!

http://www.gamespot.com/news/rumorcontrol.html?tag=subnav;rumors&sid=6185228&action=convert&om_clk=latestnews&tag=latestnews;title;1

Check it out. O ya the rumor is on the second article about the PS3. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Coolguy681 (talk • contribs) 02:34, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the find! It has been updated. -Zomic13 (talk) 17:47, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I noticed that, but I had found it in a GameSpot blog, with direct link. Maybe we should point there instead of the Rumor Control (since the story there is likely to scroll as more rumors are put there)? -- ReyBrujo (talk) 17:56, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

No worries, I had already thought of that. When I updated the listing, I used the direct link in the reference. -Zomic13 (talk) 07:35, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Morrowind?

Morrowind is on the Xbox 360 list? ??? ??? What? 142.165.59.39 (talk) 01:24, 8 February 2008 (UTC)