Talk:Canada

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Dominion of Canada

It comes to my attention that a few other users beilieve that"Canada" is Canada's official name. I'll be straightforward... it is NOT. I am Canadian and my cousin is Paul Martin (the former PM of Canada and in my opinion the best PM yet although my opinion is biast). This is the most important role in Canadian politics. We are close and talk to each other often. I asked him about this once (after reading about your disagreements). He said that the Dominion of Canada is the official name for our great nation. I sincerely hope that you will change the article to the truth. Thank you for your time and concern.

CANADA RULES (I know this isn't really formal, but it is true and that's all that matters)

ROCK ON —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.95.231.58 (talk) 02:05, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

That sounds a pretty cool reference to me. Do you think Mr Martin would jot a few lines for us, or give a reference we could use?--Gazzster (talk) 00:07, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for sharing! See if you can get your "cousin" to teach you how to spell 'biased'Homely (talk) 22:59, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

great nation ? that's too much, canada is not that great compared to other european nations like Germany —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.94.171.107 (talk) 05:16, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Everyone lives in the greatest nation on earth! --Gazzster (talk) 07:47, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Paul Martin? Canada's best PM? GoodDay (talk) 14:46, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

---

This discussion ends here. This talk page is NOT a forum, but a page to discuss on how to improve this article. -- Reaper X 15:51, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Question on an Assertion re Dieppe and Stalin

The text asserts that the raid on Dieppe convinced Stalin to wait until 1944 for the Western Allies to invade Western Europe.

This is a questionable statement. Dieppe did not change Stalin's behaviour or attitude in any respect. He continued to press the Allies for an invasion of Europe sooner rather than later. At the Teheran Conference in November 1943, Stalin pushed Churchill hard for a deadline for a cross channel landing; Churchill argued for landings in Mediterranean, which to him represented "the soft underbelly" of Europe; Churchill was mindful of the failure at Dieppe, and reluctant to cross the channel.

Rather than affecting Stalin, who would have been indifferent to large numbers of British, American, or Canadian casualties, the Dieppe raid simply demonstrated to the western Allies how difficult it would be to invade a fortified coast. The meticulous attention that the Allies paid to strength in numbers, logistics, deception and secrecy all reflect the lessons learned at Dieppe.

Please remove the reference to Stalin in the article on Dieppe; it is inaccurate.

Speaking of languages that are noticed

Punjabi should be writtin there as it is the 5th most spoken language there

Canadian French language in Canada

Which is the better article to link to in the context of the lead discussing Canada's two official languages? Canadian French is a brief article discussing dialects within Canada, while French language in Canada discusses the use of French in Canada. I strongly prefer the latter but I see it has recently been changed to the former. DoubleBlue (Talk) 17:05, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

'Canadian English' yet 'French language in Canada' seems a mismatch, no? Quizimodo (talk) 18:18, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Are you saying you don't like the titles of the articles? If so, bring that there. My question remains which article is more appropriate and useful to the reader? DoubleBlue (Talk) 20:30, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Not so much that, but I am curious as to why 'Canadian French' is a shell of what it should be given the topic matter. I have since observed quite the discussion over at those articles about the titles and article content. Change the link back herein, if you wish. Quizimodo (talk) 20:47, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Those two articles should be merged IMHO. GoodDay (talk) 22:27, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

I'd say merge both articles into a Canadian French article title which is more consistent with naming standards across Wikipedia. Pointless having two articles when one would suffice and makes more sense. Ben W Bell talk 22:35, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

You are both likely correct but that discussion belongs at those articles. The question here is which is best for the context here. DoubleBlue (Talk) 04:54, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

the fact that the mother tongue of canadians is only 59% or whatever it was is bullshit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.89.208.135 (talk) 18:47, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Population forumla

this automatically updates ONCE per day at 00:00 UTC & rounds to nearest hundred - an estimate with any more sig figs can only be either false precision or extremely temporary -- Please do not change formula without discussing on talk page

I am the guilty one. I apologize but I had trouble with the formula, so I took it out and put the population update in, hoping someone else would put the good formula back in afterwards. No attempt at being in bad faith. But I tried and tried finding all over the Wiki how to make formula and codes correctly as it seems every time I try to put a new code, it comes out bad. I'd appreciate your help referring me to a page where I could do it properly so I won't annoy you unnecessarily. Thanks. But one thing, why a population clock? It seems less accurate than the Stat Canada quarterly estimates. I believe the source of these estimates are the stats in each provinces. It seems better than using the rate of growth based on a date when anything could change a lot now from then. Ex: who would've thought Newfoundland would gain population? At the July 1st, 2007 based date, Newfoundland would still be declining in the clock now. Correct me if I am mistaken. Pieuvre (talk) 20:09, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

General information omitted

I read the Japan article very recently and this article gives very little in comparison. I know too little Canadiana to write it but if somebody can please give at least introduction articles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.232.35.71 (talk) 01:39, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Change to Government Type in Infobox

I would like to change the Government Type in this article's Infobox to "Federal parliamentary constitutional monarchy". The current description is "Parliamentary democracy and Federal constitutional monarchy". My reasons:

• This does not remove any links that are in the existing description, except for the old link to federal constitutional monarchy, which just redirects to federal monarchy which is an article that is now being revamped and may be deleted. Instead, my proposal separately links to federation and constitutional monarchy.
• It avoids the redirect that is in the current description (Parliamentary democracy redirects to Parliamentary system)
• It puts the description into one single phrase instead of two separate ones.

--thirty-seven (talk) 16:03, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I think the difficulty of saying (or reading) the single phrase outweighs the benefit from having more direct links. --Haemo (talk) 22:25, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree. The long phrase is unwieldy. --Soulscanner (talk) 04:58, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Population density?

This page lists the population density ranking as 219th, but Canada appears as #229 in List of countries by population density. (Thavron (talk) 06:48, 23 January 2008 (UTC))

Redundancy

I've noticed that the last paragraphs in the History and Economy section are almost identical, describing Free trade, etc. The history section is long. Can we keep the references to recent trade arrangements under the economy section and remove them from the history section? I realize that these are historically important, but I think for the sake of space they go better under the economy section. --Soulscanner (talk) 05:03, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Vancouver skyline missing

How about a classic pic of Vancouver skyline and Ship in English Bay to illustrate Canada's largest Port under economy section? Love that town. --Soulscanner (talk) 09:15, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Sure, if you can find a free image of it. -- Reaper X 17:07, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, I looked for one, but couldn't find the right one. There are many nice ones already on Wikipedia and on Flickr, but nothing that captures a) the skyline; b) ships in English Bay (showing it's function as Canada's busiest port); c) the mountain backdrop. That's how I think of Vancouver. There are pictures of the port, but somehow that doesn't capture it. I guess I'm asking if anyone found this. --Soulscanner (talk) 19:39, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

CANADA'S GDP

Canada's nominal gdp in 2006 was 1.275 trillion dollars not 1.089 trillion. It even says that on the page that the highlight links to. Toronto's metro population should be treated the same way Sydney, Australia, and American cities do, expanded to include at least its cma. metro Toronto has at least 5.8 million people. The golden horse shoe area around Toronto (area comparable to metro Chicago) has 8-9 million people. Also, Canada's nominal gdp should be given higher priority since it uses updated exchange rates. 2007 estimate is 1.407 trillion US dollars, 2008 is about 1.53 trillion US dollars. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Grmike (talk • contribs) 00:12, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Edit warring

Due to ongoing edit wars this page has been protected for a week. Please discuss the dispute and if you come to a consensus before the protection expires, drop by WP:RFPP or my talk page and request the protection be lowered back to semiprotected. Stifle (talk) 10:39, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Dubious

I know no one wants to hear it again, but the statement of Canada gaining more autonomy in 1867 than it's constituent parts already had is contradicted by historians and legal scholars. It cannot be presented as a fact in the lead.The only reason this awkward statement is there is because of fatigue and despondency on the part of many good editors who have simply given up on this issue, despite their opposition. This discussion is continuing at the dominion page, and until it is resolved, the statement in the lead is remains dubious. It paints an overly rosy picture of British Imperialism to portray confederation as a magnanimous gift of the British Empire, and pushes a monarchist POV. Although this does compromise the neutrality of the lead, slapping a neutrality tag would be too provocative right now. The dubious tag should call enough attention to an issue that remains hotly contested in the dominion article. The specific part I have difficulty with is the semi-autonomous part. The reasons for this are discussed on the Dominion page and the reader has the right to know that it is debated whether confederation made Canada more independent. The fact is that there is about this. Remoe the word "semi autonomous" and the link to dominon, and w can dispense with the tag.

References:

• Talk:Dominion#Justification_for_tags
• "Sometimes people have edit wars over the NPOV dispute tag, or have an extended debate about whether there is a NPOV dispute or not. In general, if you find yourself having an ongoing dispute about whether a dispute exists, there's a good chance one does, and you should therefore leave the NPOV tag up until there is a consensus that it should be removed."NPOV disputes

--soulscanner (talk) 19:10, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Most of this is above my head. But being the 'layman' I am, I'm gonna watch how it unfolds; see if I learn anything. GoodDay (talk) 16:53, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

The lead isn't dubious because you say it is. You obviously seem content to stiu up sh*t for not what. Given that this content has been in place for months without a peep -- in your absence -- I have removed this tag. You have yet to demonstrate how the current content in the lead is incorrect, imbalanced, or dubious. Quizimodo (talk) 18:07, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Mediation has been opened on this article & Dominion, hopefully there's a light at the end of the tunnel. GoodDay (talk) 18:15, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Instead of reverting the tag, let the discussion finish, and once there is consensus, the tag can be removed and/or the wording of the article improved. Also please assume good faith and be civil. Attacking the editor, and not the content is not going to improve the situation. Regards, -- Jeff3000 (talk) 18:22, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

In agreement with Jeff3000 - gentlemen, please don't get the article 'locked' again. GoodDay (talk) 18:25, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I believe Soulscanner has the right to insert a "dubious" tag; however, I suspect he's doing so not because he questions the formation of a federal, semi-autonomous polity in 1867, but because he doubts the link piped from those words to the article Dominion. Whatever his qualms about the use of the word "Dominion," I think the "dubious" tag is misleading as it would cause users not familiar with this debate to believe that there is some question about Canada's emergence as a federal, semi-autonomous polity, when there is not. I think things should be left alone here until the dispute at Dominion is settled; tags at the head of that article should tip anyone off about problems with the use of the term. --G2bambino (talk) 18:35, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

If the wikilink is dubious, and you would like the dubious tag removed until the dispute at Dominion resolved, then the obvious choice would be to remove the wikilink and the dubious tag, until the dispute is resolved. Regards, -- Jeff3000 (talk) 18:37, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not commenting on whether or not the piped link is dubious - that's a whole other matter. All I'm saying is that the placement of the tag is misleading to readers who haven't a clue what's actually being questioned.

Soulscanner originally removed the link, but then decided to restore it and place the tag. Why? --G2bambino (talk) 18:41, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

The nature of "semiautonomus" is being debated at the Dominion page. I'm not here to debate that topic; that can be left to the other page. The purpose of the tag and link is to state that the term is debated. It provides a link to this section, and a link to the Dominion page where the possible meanings of "semiautonomous" is clarified. --soulscanner (talk) 19:16, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I hesitate to engage you after your three days of harassment against me, but I'm so flabbergasted that I have to ask: now "semi-autonomous" is debated? I thought your issue was with the use of the word "Dominion." Frankly, I'm starting to think you're losing control of what exactly it is you're disputing. The "federal, semi-autonomous polity" statement here is followed by no less than three footnotes leading to supporting cites. I can't fathom how such a supported claim can be regarded as dubious, and thus believe you want the tag here purely to draw attention to your efforts at Dominion; that is not what the tags are intended for. --G2bambino (talk) 20:23, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Some definitions define Dominion as a semi-autonomous state. That's not what Canada was in 1867. Canada was a colony in 1867. It had Responisble government, but it was subservient to Britain in every way, not just some. The details of that are on the Dominion page. Again, please stop the personal attacks, assume good faith, and focus on content. --soulscanner (talk) 21:01, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Forgive me if I disregard your comments about avoiding "personal attacks"; given your widespread, very public accusations of my being a) a conspirator, b) a vandal, c) a disruptor, and d) a POV pusher, I think I'm entitled to be very suspicious.

Still, you have not addressed what I said: the claim of federal, semi-autonomous polity is supported by three sources. How can it therefore be dubious? Either demonstrate the sources to be wrong, beyond your own personal claims, or leave it alone. --G2bambino (talk) 21:08, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

We can discuss it and resolve relevant content issues the dominion page later on. I've applied for mediation at that page to move things forward since they've been stuck for so long. This discussion is about whether we can indicate that there is a disagreement of the wording. There has been for months. Until it's resolved, there needs to be a tag. Again, please assume good faith. We both embarrassed ourselves by hurling around accusations like that yesterday. I'm not going to get sucked in to a mudslinging match this time. --soulscanner (talk) 21:18, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

In agreement (again): Remove the tag, until 'Dominion' dispute is resolved. GoodDay (talk) 18:39, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes: as I've stated, the placement of these tags on notions which may be disagreeable to said editor(s) signifies more an unwillingness or inability to compel rationally on relevant talk pages. Soulscanner began the original dispute on this page; it was quelled when said editor left. Soulscanner then began a new dispute on the 'Dominion' page (where it should be resolved before spreading the dickery), and has since renewed it here -- this is clearly disruptive and will be dealt with in kind. Quizimodo (talk) 18:44, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Any reader wishing to understand the reaso

Ya wanna run that by me again? GoodDay (talk) 19:17, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Image of the Queen

Work it out here, please. GoodDay (talk) 20:58, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

There is no fair use rationale for the image placed here for this page. I don't know how to write one, and I don't have the time to figure it out. I'm just enforcing the rules. It will be deleted by a bot anyways. It's happened to a whole bunch of images I put on pages, and it was too complicated to figure out all the rules. I know that you have to prove that there is no free image available to use a copywrited image like that; that rule made me give up on putting pictures up that are not creative commons. I know on this page, there is already a fine picture of the queen on the picture of currencies, so you might have trouble proving that there is no other picture available when another image of her already on the page. --soulscanner (talk) 21:11, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

If you were so concerned about the image being used on pages for which there's no fair use rationale given, why then did you not delete it from Canadian and American politics compared, Style of the Canadian sovereign, Government of Canada, Monarchism in Canada, Debate on the monarchy in Canada, and List of Canadian monarchs? Further, all you had to do was this to quell your concerns. --G2bambino (talk) 21:13, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Soulscanner, if the Queen image is in violation?, then let the 'Bot' remove it. GoodDay (talk) 21:16, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't edit those pages. I also noticed that there were fair use rationales for some of those. They probably didn't have other pictures of the Queen, though. Feel free to remove them though. --soulscanner (talk) 21:22, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Until the Queen next goes out in public wearing her Queen of Canada attire, I don't see how we could get a free image; that seems to make it fair use. --Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 21:42, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

There was already discussion about the fair use of the image. It was decided that the image would remain and could be used with fair use rationale. I've since added this article to the list of those for which this image is used under fair use criteria. --G2bambino (talk) 21:45, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Then put the rationale there. We can then discuss if we have a consensus for putting it up. The normal procedure here is to ask to put up a picture. If so meone objects, they usually do not go up. There is not a lot of room on this page, and there is also already a picture of the Queen here. You can look to the past and see that this is the common way to do things here. Even if it were not fair use, I'd object on the grounds that the picture is too big and that there is already one here. --soulscanner (talk) 21:45, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I think that as it's been there for some time uncontested, you need to gain a consensus to take it out. Your objections are noted. --G2bambino (talk) 21:50, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

You put it up this morning. There needs to be a consensus for putting it there. --soulscanner (talk) 21:53, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I see now that it hasn't been there for some time, but I most certainly did not put it up originally, unless you think I'm User:Batfinkw. I have no issue with it being there, GoodDay doesn't seem to mind it there, and obviously nor does Batfinkw; why, then, are you alone allowed to remove it? I'm not going to support the inclusion of the image to my death, but I do question what appear to be ownership issues on your part. --G2bambino (talk) 22:06, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Someone took it down, probably because it violated fair use; it may have been a wikibot enforcing policy. You shouldn't knowingly violate these policies by putting up pictures that are not fair use. There's already 2 pictures of the Queen here. There's one where she's signing the constitution with Pierre Trudeau. I don't think you'll be able to show that it's necessary to illustrate here role. It's a smaller picture, does not violate Wiki policies, and illustrates her role nicely. I think that's sufficient. --soulscanner (talk) 16:11, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

There's one picture of the Queen here. Putting the second one up doesn't violate any policies. This is only a matter of whether it's worth while or not to have it. --G2bambino (talk) 22:21, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Bottom of history section, and in economy section. Two pictures. Putting up that picture does violate wiki policies. The picture is not fair use for this page. You'll need to justify it. If you put that picture up, you are violating wiki policies. You should check the reasons why it was deleted. --soulscanner (talk) 16:11, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh, jeez... you're counting the currency image? Ugh. I'm not going to justify anything; as I said, I have no problem with it being there - it does not violate any policies - but neither am I particularly passionate about keeping it up, either.

I wonder, though: could you anonymous be Soulscanner posting while logged out? You two sould awfully alike in your arguments; edit histories are almost identical too... Just a thought. --G2bambino (talk) 15:43, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

It does violate policies if there is no fair use rationale for this page.

* If you link to the File:Queen of canada wob.jpg picture site, you will see it clearly spelled out:

This media was proposed for deletion as a replaceable non-free content. The result was to Keep the image, as no adequate free-licensed image exists or can be created to fulfill the limited role performed by this image at the time deletion was considered. However, this image may be replaceable by free images in other contexts, and in such cases the free image must take precedence. A discussion of this decision may exist on the image talk page.

We have a free image of the Queen from Creative Commons here signing the constitution; I think that represent an adequate alternative for this image most of the pages this picture appears. I don't have the time to pursue that issue anyplace than here, though.

*Also, you now know the policy. If you check the discussion page, you'll notice that the policy has been explained to the now non-existent gbambino . Do you know this editor? Seems to share your interest in the Queen. Maybe if you can find this editor, they'll explain it to you better than I and help set up a fair use rationale for this page. Seems to have done a good job for the other pages. --soulscanner (talk) 19:25, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

In future when/if an image of King Charles III (assuming that'll be his name) is put in place of the Queen, then we'll really have a problem. Charles' ears will cover the entire article. GoodDay (talk) 22:29, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

That's getting awfully close to libel against living persons. Watch out, the wikipolice have ears in every talk page... --Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 16:42, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

"Prince Charles has big ears". Sue me. --soulscanner (talk) 19:27, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Wait a sec, the big ears joke was my joke. And no it's not libel. GoodDay (talk) 20:24, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it is either, but I've seen users get in trouble for less. --Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 20:27, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

It would make for a good news coverage, Canadian republican faces libel charges from Canadian Royal Family. Anyways, I get what ya mean. If you or anybody wants to strike it out? I wouldn't mind. GoodDay (talk) 20:32, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Now, back to the main topic. Is there going to be an end to this constant re-add/remove struggle, over the Queen image? It's getting quite annoying. GoodDay (talk) 21:04, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

More than annoying. The article has now been fully protected as a result. -- Reaper X 21:10, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually, it involves the neutrality tags and a request mediation I made regarding the issue. See above. --soulscanner (talk) 21:41, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I stand corrected. GoodDay (talk) 21:56, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

GoodDay, it's rather sad if we can't make a joke, isn't it? I thought it was funny. I confess to being baffled with this image of the Queen thing. 'She's on the Canada page and she's not wearing the Canadian insignia'; 'She's on the Australian page but the picture wasn't taken in Australia.' Jeez, she's the same bloody person.--Gazzster (talk) 21:16, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, what's a joker to do? Arctic Gnome is correct though about the libel stuff. As for the Queen image? I'd prefer it be kept & shrunken (as it cramps up the content). As for the tag? I'm not sure of the rules on those. GoodDay (talk) 21:47, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

As I've been asked to comment here's my take: the current image (the free one of the Queen signing the bill), is better suited for the article on Canada, than the non-free image of the Queen in her regalia; there is a separate (and completely appropriate) subarticle on the monarchy and governance of Canada, where the non-free image makes better sense, but here, the free image serves not only to show the Queen (though somewhat blurry) signing a critical bill as per discussed in the text. Again, the "Canada" article should be overviewing the country, and thus using the non-free image of just the Queen would shift too much of the focus to the person, and away from the country. (Mind you, if you did want that non-free image, it appears to have an appropriate fair-use rationale (though technically, each should be split, one article rationale per section), so it's ok to use for that purposes, and as noted, it is very unlikely that a free replacement of the non-free image of the Queen in regalia will be possible). --MASEM 22:45, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Adding neutrality tag to contraversial wording

Please add one or both of the following tags to the footnotes following federal dominion in the lead of the article. . This word is a source of enormous conflict, and appears to be the reason the page has been blocked (now and in October) for edit warring. A clear majority of editors have weighed in that the word dominion should not be used (see archived discussions below) for various reasons (i.e. the meaning of the word is unclear, its meaning has changed, dominion status did not exist in 1867, term is contentious, the term is antiquated, the term is poorly understood, etc.) and other, less contentious words are more appropriate (i.e federation, federal state). The dominion page is currently the preferred venue for resolving this issue to avoid monopolizing the discussion page here. A mediation request has been made over this issue. The words are really the only source of conflict here and should be identified as such. Until this dispute is resolved or the wording changed, a tag be placed on the wording in question.

Archived discussions: Poll 1; Poll 2

--soulscanner (talk) 00:45, 11 February 2008 (UTC).

This request should be denied: if anything, this is proof-positive of this editor's indiscriminate addition of tags and ongoing disruption. The term may be contentious among a clutch of Wikipedians, particularly the instigating editor, but this debate is an artificial one of the offending editor's making: definitions for 'dominion' are readily available, and this title was conferred onto Canada in the document which gave rise to it. A number of references as placed also confirm the validity of this assertion. In addition, the polls indicated yielded results that were not in the above editor's favour. As well, Canada is already noted as a 'federal state' in the next paragraph. I would support reversion to the prior, long-standing wording {'federal semi-autonomous polity' with link) or similar (federal colonial state). Throughout, this editor has been unable to compel through salient sourcing, and shouldn't be allowed to cut corners now. Quizimodo (talk) 00:52, 11 February 2008 (UTC)