Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Abd 2

Abd

Abd (talk · contribs)

Voice your opinion (talk page) (17/15/6); Scheduled to end 04:09, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Abd is a very objective user and one smart fellow. He has a lot of knowledge and experience with Wikipedia. Sarsaparilla (talk) 18:40, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Questions for the candidate

Dear candidate, thank you for offering to serve Wikipedia as an administrator. It is recommended that you answer these optional questions to provide guidance for participants:

1. What admin work do you intend to take part in?

A: I did not request or expect this nomination, and have seriously considered declining it. Most of the work that I do for the project, or plan to do, does not require the privileged tools, and possessing them could even be a distraction. However, I also respect the intentions of the nominator, and have a general belief that I should serve when asked or I become aware of a need that I can meet. Nevertheless, due to the burden of many responsibilities, I do not expect that I could perform much of the ordinary mop work. There are, however, certain tasks that I'm sure I could and would help with, that come to mind because I've needed them myself, such as recovering copies of deleted pages, as appropriate, for review by users who have requested them. Ultimately, I'd like to make this an unnecessary task, but wishes aren't horses. I would be an extra hand when extra hands are needed, and how often that would occur is something I cannot predict. I saw the granting of the rollback tool to non-admins as a step toward creating what I have called a penumbra of chosen support around administrators; while administrators may not have seen it this way, I considered that any administrator who granted the rollback tool to a user would be responsible for that user's actions with it; thus I would not grant that tool to a user merely upon request, and, indeed, I might look at a request from an unknown user with a jaundiced eye. Not so a user who had been steadily working to remove vandalism already, or had otherwise shown responsibility. I might work toward setting up rapid-response systems to deal with vandalism and disruptive editing more efficiently, more intelligently, and more fairly. As an ordinary user, I can suggest such systems, as an administrator I could be the active agent for one (but it would be a drop in the bucket unless other administrators followed suit).

My interest in Wikipedia comes from a long consideration and study of decision-making systems in peer associations quite like Wikipedia; I anticipated the rise of such, and recognized Wikipedia, as soon as I became seriously involved in editing, as quite analogous to what I'd seen, studied, and facilitated elsewhere. Many of the policies and guidelines are quite what I'd expected they would be. My major focus, however, and I am known for this outside Wikipedia, is how to handle the communications problem when the scale becomes very large; I have theoretical solutions, but they have never been tried on anything even approaching the Wikipedia scale. However, on the other hand, they are fail-safe, they are efficient and are designed to require very little effort; indeed, to be scalable, they must be extremely efficient and extremely easy to use. I will be working on this regardless of whether or not this RfA succeeds, and I do not need the admin bit to do it, but there may be a few places where being an administrator might help.

2. What are your best contributions to Wikipedia, and why?

A: They are yet to come. I've been learning my way around, as situations come up, reading the guidelines and policies and essays where the community has expressed or has attempted to find consensus, and discussing them. I've followed Arbitrations and contributed to one, and a comment I wrote to place on the Talk page of an administrator who was, sadly, about to lose his bit and was bitter about it, received some positive comment from at least one other editor; for the comment, see [1] It was written December 1, and my understanding of Wikipedia continues to grow rapidly, but it should give an idea of how I think about this place and, also, about administrator conduct.

I have only become extensively involved with a few articles, most notably Instant-runoff voting, which is an article which continues to be in flux; a major participant, the source of a lot of editing conflict, was just exposed as another James Salsman sock. The article did get, at one point, almost to where the POV tag could be removed, but it has slid back a bit. I have recently taken an interest in Attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder and Attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder: controversies; there was continued conflict there long before I arrived, and it may be that my participation has helped to start the process to find a consensus; but, as is common, doing what I see needs to be done is a bit destabilizing for some. SPA editors who have been heavily controlling an article for a year often don't take kindly to being confronted about it, no matter how civilly it's done; but these people drive away newcomers, experts, and anyone who disagrees with them; most of these people don't have the patience or time to persist when rudely reverted. Newcomers often edit contrary to guidelines and policy; a POV editor will use this to simply reject their work, instead of assisting them to find the proper way to do what they want to do, at least as far as what they want to do has some value, and it usually does. In this case, even though there had been found reliable, peer-reviewed sources explicitly noting controversy over the diagnosis, nearly all mention of the controversy had been gradually excluded from the article; it's a familiar story, actually, repeated over many different articles, this is just one that I have some connection with. I have ADHD, not marginal, so I understand the topic from the inside. In order to uncover what had happened, which involved, among other things, misrepresentation of sources, I had to actually, I know this seems excessive, go to a ... physical library and find an article that wasn't on the internet! (Misrepresentation of sources is actually a common problem with certain kinds of articles, particularly where a peer-reviewed journal that is cited may not be available to most editors. I have ideas about how to remedy the situation, and I expect to be implementing them in short order. Again, I don't need admin tools for this....

3. Have you been in any conflicts over editing in the past or have other users caused you stress? How have you dealt with it and how will you deal with it in the future?

A: Well, I've sometimes said that if a user has never been blocked, they have not beenworking hard enough for the project. That's an exaggeration, of course, and most work for the project does not involve the kinds of actions that could result in a block. But then there are what might be called battleground articles, where there are constituencies in the outside world, with great resources, attempting to control the spin of the article. Having administrative tools is often useless for dealing with this, for if one has sufficient knowledge to recognize what is happening, one is quite likely to have sufficient conflict of interest to be unable to use the tools (and, in fact, this has tripped up more than one administrator). (It can take having knowledge in the field to understand the implications, which is commonly associated with the formation of a POV, to be able to recognize the subtle spin involved in balance issues, for spinmasters will use carefully selected and framed fact to create impressions, they get paid for that.) Having found myself in that position, I have confronted a series of James Salsman socks (at least four), three of them before they came to administrative attention, an anonymous IP editor (whom I identified from the IP as having a major conflict of interest,and who was blocked), and single-purpose accounts, and was once, as a result, blocked (perhaps properly as a precaution) and then immediately unblocked (also properly) when the administrator realized what I had actually been doing. My understanding is that generally users have the same rights as administrators; and the same responsibilities (i.e., being an administrator is no protection against 3RR violation when the administrator is involved with the article) and being temporarily blocked as a precaution -- in error -- is no harm for an experienced user. (But it can be very harmful for a newcomer, indeed, fatal for their relationship with Wikipedia.) I'll be happy to answer any questions here, or on my Talk page. No, it has not caused me stress. I was a single parent with five teenagers at one time, I was a moderator for the Usenet group soc.religion.islam, attacked by fanatics on all sides, yet able to maintain my balance; Wikipedia is a piece of cake. Only once did the obsession button get pushed here, and it was when I tried to file my first 3RR report, screwed it up, and the report was rejected and my pleas for assistance went unheeded -- and, as a result, damage continued for quite some time. It's an old button of mine, and I quickly recognized it, and that was that. So one of the things I might to is to patrol WP:ANI/3RR and assist. But not with articles and editors I've been involved with! (and, yes, I did eventually figure out how to put up diffs properly. I'm 63, but I'm not dead yet.)--Abd (talk) 03:52, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Questions from Avruch

4. What is the difference between a ban and a block?

Is this an open-book test? It is in real life, of course, we have a manual at hand. In any case, my first answers are from my immediate reaction, and then I'll check the answers -- as I would if I had any doubt about precedent in an actual situation, either from "the book" or from other administrators or knowledgeable users -- and correct my response if I think it necessary. And an administrator who makes a mistake, and discovers it or it is pointed out, likewise should immediately correct it, as did User:Durova. And as User:Physchim62 did not. Most of the precedents, however, are simply common sense, starting with WP:IAR, which means the same on Wikipedia as Public policy (law) means in the legal system: the welfare of the project can supersede any guideline or policy. But usually doesn't.

To my understanding, as an administrator, I'd have a block button. Nobody has a ban button. A ban is a community or other broad or authoritative decision, a block is an administrative action, taken by a single administrator, to restrict the access of a user or IP address or address range, and it is for a specified period, beginning normally with 24 hours, there being some level of disapproval of shorter blocks as being at the same time punitive and useless, though very short blocks have been used to enter information in the block record, and I recall some controversy over that. Block are extended as needed, typically becoming longer with each block, until they may become "indefinite." A ban is essentially a standing community request to permanently block a user, but it has no effect unless an administrator blocks; administrative blocks require justification in the immediate facts regarding user behavior or from ArbComm decisions, and administrators may be held responsible for error in blocking, but blocking a proven sock of a banned user requires no special finding beyond identification. Better be proven, though.

One more comment on blocks: administrators should always extend professional courtesy toward blocked users; blocks are not punitive, but are to protect the community. Particularly when new users are blocked, the block notice should, in my opinion, express regret that the block was deemed necessary, and carefully and helpfully explain how the user may appeal. But an administrator, given this, should not hesitate to block to protect the project and other users, for a disruptive editor, sometimes with only one edit, may permanently drive away other users who are not willing to engage in tenacious dispute, and this kind of damage accumulates over time. However, administrators, regardless of personal opinion, are servants of the community and should not stray far, except in emergencies, from established practice. --Abd (talk) 06:56, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

5. If another administrator removes material from an article and cites a BLP concern as the reason - but you believe the material does not violate BLP policy and should be included- what do you do?

Anything from nothing, discussing it with the other administrator, up through the various forms of dispute resolution; however, no action I'd take here would involve the use of the administrative tools. Technically, that the one removing the material is an administrator, as, say, distinguished from any ordinary or experienced user, is not relevant. I *could* put the material back, just as could any user, depending on the details of the situation, and subject to the same rules and possible sanctions as any other user. However, BLP is serious policy and BLP problems can present a hazard to the project, so I'd be pretty conservative. Further, there is the issue that administrators are expected to behave in exemplary fashion, which can dampen WP:BOLD a bit. My conclusion: if I think it that important, I'd use standard dispute resolution procedures. Which, by the way, I've never followed, beyond the simplest steps, for so far I've been sufficiently bold and at the same time sufficiently willing to agree and cooperate and find consensus that it has not yet been necessary, beyond the simplest level of asking for third opinion. Give me some time, I'm sure I'll walk down those more involved roads. --Abd (talk) 06:56, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

6. What is your opinion on administrator recall and do you plan to add yourself to the category?

I haven't paid much attention to it beyond looking at it once. This is actually a tough question. It should, in my opinion, be fairly easy to remove administrative tools (and it should, in fact, be easier to obtain them than it is, and those go together). We might recall that initially, all users had the same tools. As the scale increased, this became impossible, as is quite understandable and predictable, but there are far too few administrators, considering the user population. My general impression is that, with proper guidance and support, many more users could be trusted with the tools than currently are. I rather doubt that, were there to arise a situation where ArbComm would de-sysop me, that it would be necessary to actually go to ArbComm, for the loss of community confidence would, I'd think, be obvious. But what if I thought that the apparent consensus that I should be desysopped was a false consensus? This is where the question gets difficult. The possibility of a false consensus, which appears through participation bias, is actually the problem that interests me the most: how to compensate for participation bias, without losing the benefits of selective participation (for there are some)? However, I rather doubt that I'd be using the tools in a manner that would be likely to create cause to remove me from the position of trust. There are things I want to do that could be controversial, but they don't involve administrative tools (nor do they involve any kind of disruptive activity). I'll answer again after looking at the page. --Abd (talk) 06:56, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I can give a better answer now. I don't find Administrative Recall sufficiently well-defined that I can assent to it without reservation. It creates a new process that doesn't seem to me any different than RfC. I could say Yes and it would mean practically nothing in a practical sense. However, if the sense of the community were that I should not use the tools, I would not use them, which is the proper point, so an easy "suspension" path, pending resolution of a conflict, would suffice. If this process has been tested, can anyone point it out to me? Are we fixing something that is not broken? I've below expressed my opinion that removal of the sysop bit should be easy, but it would be accomplished much more easily if it were a suspension rather than a removal. Indeed, suspension should take only a very few administrators concurring (and it could be mutual). It should not take a lot of cumbersome process. Indeed, that is part of what I hope to bring are methods of making decisions by community consensus that are more reliable, less subject to the hazards of participation bias, while still being efficient (not polling everyone), and maintaining the basic way that things are done here (which is brilliant, as far as it goes). If this happens -- nice trick if we can pull it off, eh? -- it *could* become part of a defined procedure for rapid suspension. If we can suspend, why remove? To punish? If we want to punish, there is ye olde wikitrout and blocking as a last resort beyond that we cannot go. Short answer: Yes, at least in practical effect. Longer answer, that's a useless answer without clearer definitions. --Abd (talk) 20:37, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

7. What are the policies most crucial to your role as an administrator?

We'll start with WP:IAR. But that's pretty esoteric, really (and commonly misunderstood. I mention this Rule Number 1 because the welfare of the project (and those who participate in it) comes first, and specific rules cannot encompass what is appropriate in all situations. I don't know what kind of work I'll be doing, exactly, so I can't predict which specific guidelines and policies will be most important to my use of the tools. Not having had the buttons, I have not studied the actual policies involved in their use, such as blocking policy; I presume that before taking any action that might possibly be controversial, I'd review the involved policies and follow them (and I know a fair number of administrators I could ask, plus there are all the usual sources for assistance). Administrators as such don't make content decisions and my focus with the policies has been on those which guide content. Administrators make process decisions, such as whether or not a user post is a personal attack on another user and thus justifying some warning or sanction, or whether there is disruptive editing (which is not about content; a user can make disruptive edits in pursuit of content "policy," i.e., his or her personal interpretation of such, but contrary to process policy). However, one very important policy is that administrative tools are not to be used for advancing some personal cause or promoting a personal opinion. Administrators, as administrators, are servants of the community. If they don't want to do what the community wants, they may refuse to act, but may never use the tools contrary to the consensus of the community.

I appreciate the opportunity to reflect on these questions. As I mentioned, I'll open the book and check my answers, and come back, presumably tomorrow, with another edit to correct errors that I find, probably giving a better view of what I would actually do, as distinct from predicting it here, off the cuff. --Abd (talk) 06:56, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

General comments

• See Abd's edit summary usage with mathbot's tool. For the edit count, see the talk page.

• Links for Abd: Abd (talk · contribs · deleted · count · AfD · logs · block log · lu · rfar · spi)

• The talk page contains information from the previous RfA. Dlohcierekim Deleted? 16:15, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
• Link to prior RfA
• There has been canvassing, see [2] and Special:Contributions/Yellowbeard ] but please do not disregard any "oppose" comments from canvassed users. --Abd (talk) 16:52, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

---

Please keep discussion constructive and civil. If you are unfamiliar with the nominee, please thoroughly review Special:Contributions/Abd before commenting.

Discussion

• 1400 edits and 500 mainspace edits is usually too few to pass an RfA. You might want to speak to whether your particular experience or background should make you an exception to this (unwritten) rule. Avruchtalk 04:14, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
  • There has been editors who have passed with less edits. I have no idea why people oppose and support due to a 'rule" of more edits equals better editor, or even a more experienced editor. Please be aware that a thousand vandalism reverts takes less effort than a dozen thoughtful comments. Edit count is not a judge of a good editor, and I urge people to reconsider if they oppose due to it. — Dark ^(talk) 06:36, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
  • I should not be an exception to an edit count guideline. I do not consider myself an experienced Wikipedian. However, I do understand the boundaries around the use of privileged power, and thus I think that the wrong issue is being considered, not just with me, but with many RfAs. If I'm inexperienced and therefore useless, well, you have just increased the number of administrators at great cost with no benefit. So to speak. But if I'm inexperienced and barge ahead furiously with foolish actions, then serious harm could be done, or, alternatively, if I have an axe to grind using the tools. The sole question, in my mind, should be, "Is this user unlikely to abuse the tools or use them in a harmful way, and is this user unlikely to poorly represent the community, and is it reasonably possible that some benefit will accrue from approval?" If so, the vote should be Support.

I really am not concerned with convincing anyone that I should be an administrator, I'm not even convinced myself, but I do care that Wikipedia has the administrative support it needs, and it needs much more than it has. Edit count is a very poor measure, it indicates little about how the editor will behave if granted the tools, unless we look at the edits. A few hundred edits might be enough to indicate clearly enough the character and sobriety of one editor, and ten thousand might not be enough for another. What if it was ten thousand mediocre, very easy, or inconsequential edits? (But never vandalism.) By continually raising the bar, it becomes more difficult to recruit administrators. Administrators with good character can be trained to use the tools, it's harder to teach character to someone who is merely technically proficient. As to participating in consensus process, I do have many years of experience with it, most of how Wikipedia works is quite familiar to me. Again, it doesn't matter with me, I'm not going to be a furious wielder of the mop, Wikipedia is not going to rise or fall based on this RfA, nor am I, but someone younger or in a different position might be missed for the same reasons, and multiply this by many RfAs, plus RfAs not filed because it's discouraged, and it could make a big difference. As always, I'm more concerned about the process than the content. I'm the content here, and how important edit count is, is process.--Abd (talk) 07:59, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I think that edit counts can be misleading when used as a measure of knowledge or experience or even how much time one has been spending on Wikipedia. My edit count is fairly high for the length of time I've been here because I frequently take five or ten edits to revise an article as I continue reading it over and thinking of more stuff I want to change or add, and a lot of my summaries say "fix" or "oops" (I probably should use the Preview button more, but sometimes I get overconfident). So, while on paper I have more edits that Abd, Abd has probably written more words total than I have. Also, there is a lot of learning that can be done just by passively reading policy pages, discussions, etc. and Abd's edits show that he has clearly done a lot of that.

Some people would say that Abd's focus on a few subjects is "obsessive" and a negative trait. I view it as a potential strength for a sysop. We need more admins who will go into depth on an issue. If you have something complicated that you want someone to take a thorough look at, Abd would probably be the one to ask. While we also need sysops who take a more generalist approach to their admin activities (spending time on a variety of duties), it's also good to have that focus when we need it. Accordingly, I think he would be a good contribution to the admin community.

As for objections to Abd (or anyone else) checking users' contributions – if that's stalking, why do we have that tool? It's to help users scrutinize one another's activities, so that we can exercise oversight over one another and curb abuses. Granted, it is easy to have an emotional reaction when you're the one being scrutinized, but that's where keeping cool is needed.

Lastly, in reference to the comment that "he continues to be embattled" – "embattled" simply means "beset with attackers or controversy or conflict." Could that not describe a lot of admins and regular users who get involved in contentious debates? Somebody has to do it. I think Abd has kept a pretty cool head. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sarsaparilla (talk • contribs) 19:15, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

By the way, I removed the notice on my page about designating Abd as a proxy because he has not accepted and therefore it has not taken effect.

Sarsaparilla (talk) 15:16, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I need somebody to please explain the proxy thing. How do proxies work in Wikipedia? Never heard of it. Dlohcierekim Deleted? 05:22, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

For a detailed explanation, please see Abd's comments Wikipedia talk:Delegable proxy and Wikipedia talk:Delegable proxy/Abd's message. Abd made a proposal on the mailing list, and I attempted to sum it up in an essay, describing it as a system in which users delegated their voting rights to others. But as Abd points out, we do not have votes on Wikipedia. So it could perhaps be more accurately be described as a non-binding method of estimating consensus with the help of proxies executed by users who are basically saying of their proxy, "I generally trust this user to make a decent decision where I cannot myself participate." Sarsaparilla (talk) 05:37, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

My ideas about how to facilitate the community process that I see as necessary for Wikipedia to be able to meet the challenges of scale are really of little relevance here. My ideas will shift, quite likely, as my experience expands, and experience with administrative tools may help that a little, but I've already followed many administrators and see, quite well, what they struggle with. The structural issues (i.e., the de facto manner in which the community responds to environmental stress) are what truly interest me, and I don't need administrative tools to implement my vision. Nor is it to be imposed on anyone. Quite the opposite. And if I were to go into this in detail, well, how much space is left on the disk? Not here, is the point.--Abd (talk) 18:26, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I am taking this opportunity to interact with a broader community of users than I normally have interchanges with. This, in fact, is quite valuable for me, and if anyone feels oppressed by my level of response, well, please vote as you like, I won't be offended, nobody is obligated, here, to read anything I write, and even the closing administrator may quite properly ignore it all. It is the community consensus that counts, or lack of same (and what I more or less expect here is "no consensus," though other outcomes are possible), and I only have one vote, which I'm not casting! (Though it is certainly tempting to vote "Opposed.") I am also responding to certain editors in Talk; I am not responding on user Talk pages, but I sincerely thank all editors who have taken, or will take, the opportunity to comment. Please do so without any fear that I'll be offended. I won't. I actually want to know where I stand with the community, and "negative" information is valuable, sometimes more valuable than what is supposedly "positive." So far, I've mostly been dealing with editors sitting on articles with strong POVs, and they frequently treat me as some lunatic out to destroy all that is good about their article, with "eccentric" views, standing alone against their consensus, no matter how careful I am to be civil (and no matter how much I know that I effectively represent many nonparticipants, often because these have been driven away), so it is very nice to see such general support. I'd be happy with quite a bit less!

I'm not censoring myself in any way here, though I was advised "if I want to be approved" to be more restrained. I don't want that, I decided to accept if the community chooses to trust me. What you see is what you get, and I want you to see what you will get. I write too much, which has nothing to do with admin tools, rather, it reveals who I am, more thoroughly than terse polemic polished for effect.--Abd (talk) 18:26, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Support

1. The fact that he was tempted to decline is prima facie evidence of a lack of power hunger! Support wholeheartedly! Sarsaparilla (talk) 04:08, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
2. Support per these intelligent posts: 02:40, 25 December 2007, 02:02, 29 December 2007, and 05:12, 30 December 2007. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles^Tally-ho! 04:16, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
3. Contrary to the opposes, I feel his responses to questions and Le Grand's diffs above demonstrates enough knowledge of policy. — Dark ^(talk) 06:07, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
4. Definite support. Good and eloquent contributor. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sj (talk • contribs) 06:56, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
5. Support, appears to have a good grasp of policy. Lankiveil ^{(complaints | disco)} 07:59, 10 February 2008 (UTC).
6. Support, because I like your edits and also think you understand policy. But wait!!! Whoa back. I am inexperienced, just like you. Ergo, thats TWO of us editors who have no place in Wiki.Kaiwhakahaere (talk) 08:06, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
7. Support sensible. - TwoOars 09:27, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
8. Support Unlikely to abuse admin tools. --Siva1979^{Talk to me} 10:00, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

   (change to abstention) Weak support per Jmlk17. Should this not succeed, keep it up and I'll support strongly in a few months. User:Dorftrottel 11:16, February 10, 2008

9. I would consider that this user has a very good grasp of policy. I see absolutely no benefit making the candidate wait some arbitrary time period before being granted the sysop flag; such process is simply for process's sake, and does not help the encyclopedia. What should be considered before commenting is whether the candidate can help Wikipedia, and will not harm it; looking at some contributions and comments that the candidate has made, the only option is to strong support given the clear policy knowledge and good manner that he has. EJF (talk) 11:26, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
10. Support - not afraid to get stuck into some messy topics integral to good 'pedia building, and seems to exhibit some diplomacy. cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 11:31, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
11. Support. Thoughtful answers to questions. Opposition based on a lack of experience is misconceived, as this candidate clearly has the experience needed to use the few extra buttons wisely. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 12:14, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
12. Moral support, thoughtful replies to the questions and unafraid of controversial issues. But rather inexperienced and possibly a bit too focussed on contributors, rather than content. Tim Vickers (talk) 16:39, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
13. Support I don't expect problems with this candidate. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 17:58, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
14. Support; in spite of a low edit count, he's quite a strong candidate. Do please read the three diffs cited by Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles above. This candidate will be a fine admin. Antandrus (talk) 18:20, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
15. Strong support. A refreshingly eccentric contributor. Adminship should be no big deal, and this candidate's attitude is consistent with that. No danger of abusing the tools here! --Ginkgo100^talk 22:22, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
16. Strong support, very good answers to the questions. --Aqwis (talk – contributions) 22:53, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
17. Support his answers and Le Grand Roi's diffs show wisdom that belies his number of contributions and make me doubt that he would use admin tools inappropriately. Rigadoun (talk) 21:49, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
18. Support. This user can be trusted with the admin tools and has done good editing.--Fahrenheit451 (talk) 02:14, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose I'm sorry, but I don't believe you have enough overall experience as of yet. Jmlk17 06:02, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
2. Oppose Per Jmlk17 - This was my major concern while doing my analysis. I'm sure in 4-5 months my username would be in the support list. Wisdom89 (talk) 06:03, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
3. Somewhat Reluctant Oppose I have no doubt that Abd is a good editor, and I'm fairly certain that he can be trusted to use the tools properly. However, he admits in the 'discussion' section above that he is not an experienced Wikipedian ("I do not consider myself an experienced Wikipedian."). While his answers to the questions show intelligence, they also serve to illustrate his unfamiliarity with some basic aspects of Wikipedia. I'm not concerned with his edit count, but rather with the fact that, by his own admission, he is lacking in the experience department. And while I feel that he can be trusted to wield the tools, I think that at this point he lacks the experience to effectively and appropriately use the buttons. I could definitely see myself supporting some time in the future, but I can't now. Good luck! faithless (^speak) 11:46, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

   Here is the issue as I see it: can I be trusted to know when I don't know enough to take a strong action? I have not studied the policies and procedures for the use of those buttons because I haven't needed to know; though, from review of many arbitrations, I do have a pretty good idea of what not to do. Quite simply, in a few months I should have enough edits to satisfy most of those opposed here, but I will still not have the experience that would actually make a difference in administrative competence. I won't learn to use the buttons until I have them. If I am recruited to serve, I'll learn to use them, and I'm nearly certain that I won't be doing anything damaging with them. Instead, I'll simply be a bit slow and possibly inept at first, as with many things where I ended up being expert. This is a wiki. Most errors can be fixed in a flash, and I do know how to ask for help. The few edits that can't be easily fixed or that cause serious damage, are usually pretty obvious. I'm not going to be going in and deleting or editing templates and categories, until and unless I know *exactly* what I'm doing. I don't want to break the encyclopedia, and I do know what I don't know. --Abd (talk) 17:41, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

4. Oppose - per Jmlk17. And although this has not much relevance with this RFA, does the candidate know what this means? Rudget. 12:11, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

   Well, it took me some time to figure it out, it would have been helpful to specify it. It's a userbox that the user was working on. He is interested in delegable proxy for Wikipedia, and has rushed ahead a bit. I do in fact support the use of delegable proxy here, but not for voting; rather for the purpose of better estimation of consensus by balancing out participation bias. The expansion of polls by considering delegable proxy assignments would be at the discretion of anyone interested in such balance; and I had no role in the preparation and wording of that userbox and have subsequently expressed my opposition to it. Nobody votes for anyone else in what I'd propose. Rather, the formal system would be exactly as it is today. A closing administrator, if this works, might be able to better estimate the response the whole community would give if informed and asked, just as anyone may, now, weight votes in some way when they consider. We don't "vote," in theory, but, in practice, sometimes we do. Such as here. No fixed standard, though. --Abd (talk) 07:48, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

5. Strongly Oppose - He has a tendency to judge other editors and their editing practices far too often in talk, and believes that this practice is productive. He seems to have an unlimited amount of time to do lengthy commentary in talk, and has spent a lot of time researching editors edit history(in my opinion verging on stalking behaviour). He also appears to know a great deal about Wiki policy and these combinations, intentionally or unintentionally, have been used to wear many editors who disagree with him down. By this I mean that disagreements are resolved not through communication but by the other side simply throwing in the towel. He generally appears to be a little obsessive and has difficulty "letting things go". I am on the verge of making a formal complaint and have sought advice on how to proceed. I have placed four warnings on his talk page which were deleted. Granted, the third warning used the wiki "don't be a dick" as a heading with a quotation from that essay, but that was the behaviour I saw at the time. On hindsight that probably wasn't the best approach but you would think that a potential administrator would take the highroad and seek conciliation. The olive branch has been extended to him many times.--scuro (talk) 14:38, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

   scuro, could you provide some diffs or links? It would help me in making my own assessment. Thanks, --A. B. ^(talk) 15:51, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

   I was asked to comment and I did. "Comment" to me means opinions. To truly support what I said would take a long time so I really have to ask to what end? If the process would be part of a formal complaint that would examine Abd's refusal to stick to content, I'd agree. I'd like him to follow guidelines.

   Really you could argue that our perceptions make the case. There are three possibilities...I can be lying, I can be right, I can assume I am right but am wrong. Miamomimi, another editor who has also dealt with Abd, recently posted this about what I last posted at this RA, "Hi Scuro, I noticed the request to participate in a discussion below and would tell you that I concur with your comments". If I am a biased editor with no purpose other then POV pushing, she could be my counterpart. We are often on opposite sides of issue dealing with ADHD but we don't make it personal. We accept each other for who we are and work in good faith. So now that two editors have the same complaint, the possibility is that we are both lying, we are both right, or we both assume we are right but are wrong. The third possibility speaks to his style. If two contributors from very different backgrounds get a bad vibe from him, you have to ask why he should become an administrator at this point in time? Bottom line, he refuses to follow guidelines and stop commenting on editors or editors writing styles...even though several editors have asked him not to do so for the last month. That is a rigid stance, and he has not accepted several olive branches offered by Miamomimi or myself.--scuro (talk) 04:12, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

   Well, in RfA, one generally provides difs so that it will provide support for one's points and give the other members of the community an opportunity to see what you're talking about. Dlohcierekim Deleted? 05:11, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

   That's certainly a long answer, scuro, but I just prefer a few diffs so I can see and judge for myself. If you want to dig them up, that's fine, otherwise I'll rely on the others' comments. --A. B. ^(talk) 13:14, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

   I've asked for the same, many times, actually. He did once answer, in material I later removed from my Talk page and he reverted back, here is the diff for that:[3]. In a few other places he complained about something I wrote, where I could identify what he considered improper, which indeed may have been inappropriate comment, and I apologized and added strikeout to it. I do make mistakes.--Abd (talk) 17:08, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

   I don't have unlimited time in the day, I have a job, family...and many other concerns and commitments that take up my time. I can devote an hour or more a day.. depending. How much time do I have to report back? I'll start tonight and will do it in chunks. Since Abd is replying to this RFA, Abd,...why can you not comply to the oft cited request of you to specifically follow the guideline of sticking to commenting on content instead of contributors...especially if you know that you are upsetting fellow contributors? Secondly, why did you not respond when asked to let it go and do the right thing?...Here...(WP:TRUCE Abd, peace can be achieved if we both follow the conventions of Wikipedia. There are two current behaviours which are impeding my editing ability. I ask that you stop cutting my posts in half with your edits and I also ask that you focus on content and not other editors WP:NPA. "Do not make personal attacks anywhere in Wikipedia. Comment on content, not on the contributor. Personal attacks will not help you make a point; they hurt the Wikipedia community and deter users from helping to create a good encyclopedia". Can we not solve this here now? --scuro (talk) 23:25, 1 February 2008 (UTC))...here... ( Abd....Abd...I'm not biting on the bait offered. It would be great if we could let this go. I'm ready to move on and have stated so several times now. I don't want to focus on the past and want to work together in good faith. Again, I offer that opportunity to you and wait for your aquiensence. No editor wants to see this go on...but what is one to do if someone can't let it go? The mediation cabal is my answer, hence the request of advice from the mediation cabal. It can stop now, and I'll lead the way. I will focus only on content if you do the same. My commitment starts now, does yours? --scuro (talk) 06:07, 10 February 2008 (UTC)) and here (Crikey!! Hey guys, let's just stop with the personal comments and considerations and all play nicely - we've all had problems with each other because this is an emotive topic, but it's important. Abd - a number of editors have had problems with your personal comments but lets forget that now and all assume good faith; I think it's there. You are an important contributor to this article so please don't go and lets all just stay on topic, all of us. Scuro and others - you do resist mention of any viewpoint questioning ADHD as a medical condition, but Scuro your objections are not without foundation, except when dealing with Clockback who deals only in logic (Continually repeating a line from an advert he's never seen will just annoy him) but as he seems to have gone now I don't see that as a problem. So please, lets just forget this and make progress. Miamomimi (talk) 17:54, 7 February 2008 (UTC))--scuro (talk) 00:33, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

6. Hah, two switches in one day. to neutral Look there.OpposeOn the right track. Not ready yet. Dlohcierekim Deleted? 15:17, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

   Switch to strong oppose per DGG, not every day when we agree, <<Grin>> and I think I he's too confrontational to trust with the buttons right now. A little less IAR; a little more AGF if you please. Dlohcierekim Deleted? 14:28, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

   Glad to be of help, bringing the community together to agree on something. As to those fine principles, it would be useful to give examples of what rules I've ignored, and what good faith I have failed to assume. I'm not aware of any, but I do make mistakes. (As it happens, most of the rules are phrased with sufficient wiggle room that I'm not sure I've actually had to ignore any. IAR is an approach that seeks guidance from the rules, but is not rigidly bound by superficial interpretations of them. At law, a judge who didn't understand IAR would be dangerously unworthy of the bench. There is a reason we have human judges instead of robots.)--Abd (talk) 16:02, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

   "Tempted to decline" suggests that nominee recognizes a lack of readiness. Dlohcierekim Deleted? 15:40, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

   Well, it could be read that way. But that is not what I meant. I was not tempted to decline because I'm possibly not ready. I'm ready, more than ready, I would have been ready at my first RfA, for reasons I think I explained then. No, the question is whether or not it serves what I see needs to be done to have the tools. Quite possibly not. I did eventually figure out some possible use, i.e., some way that I might be able to serve using them beyond the obvious sweeping of the floor and taking out the trash. Ultimately, though, I accepted because I was asked to serve. --Abd (talk) 07:48, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

   Ignore all rules as the guiding policy for use of the admin buttons does not leave me overcome with confidence. Dlohcierekim Deleted? 15:43, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

   I'm not surprised. However, that is exactly what it is, both here and at common law. I did explain what WP:IAR means, in my opinion, which is, quite possibly, not what this user thinks it means. An answer is not required, but why is WP:IAR "Wikipedia's first rule to consider"? If I respond to a question of what are the most important policies, for me to state that one first is some kind of worrisome thing? You know what shakes my confidence? This user has over 15,000 contributions with one account and I didn't look at the other, and is an administrator here and wrote this. But, hey, it takes all kinds. --Abd (talk) 07:48, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

   I'm sorry, but you have not convinced me that you have sufficient knowledge of editor blocking/unblocking, page protection/unprotection, page deletion/undeletion to have those buttons. The most important policy I use, despite your disapproval of my adminship, with 20,000 edits and almost 2 years of experience is WP:AGF]. I start out assuming the intent of the article creator or the editor was to improve the encyclopedia. If an examination the created article leads me to conclude the article created does not meet inclusion criteria, I sadly go about getting it deleted. If I reluctantly come to the conclusion that the edits are vandalism, I first warn and then block the vandal in hopes that he will learn to edit constructively. IAR as one's foundation suggests a maverick who will do as he pleases and who believes whatever he does is justifiable because it is he that is doing it. Dlohcierekim Deleted? 14:02, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

   Answer to question 1 does not hint at sufficient understanding to follow the rules, let alone ignore them. Dlohcierekim Deleted? 15:44, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

   Let me put it this way: I've become involved in some quite troublesome situations, with sock puppets and COI editors and wikilawyering POV-pushers, I've reverted and been reverted, standing on my understanding that, except for buttons, any user can do what an administrator can do, I've confronted abusive users and biters of newcomers, and I have yet to be rebuked by anyone knowledgeable for any violations of guidelines or policies, though certainly those editors have tried to make it happen. Could this possibly indicate that I understand those rules?--Abd (talk) 07:48, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

   <EC>I found about ten AFD discussions in which nominee partook. I did not see any AIV referrals. I find it hard to substantiate any claim that nom has had sufficient experience to use the mop. Dlohcierekim Deleted? 15:52, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

   Lack of link to prior RfA on this RfA and obsolete info on talk page do not suggest a grasp on policy/experience sufficient for adminship. Dlohcierekim Deleted? 16:21, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

   Lack of link shows that nominee has never created an RfA, including this one, though I did a little more work on this one than the last. And an intermediate edit had an incorrect reference to the old talk page, I think, because it was copied from there and not noticed. Definitely, I'm not perfect, I sometimes take more than one edit to get where I'm going, and forget to Show Preview, or do and miss something. Of course, if I took even more edits, like some editors who seem to run a half-dozen in sequence routinely, I'd have my several thousand edits....--Abd (talk)

   The answer to question 3 suggests that nominee has learned little about conflict resolution beyond trying to ensure his position prevails. He continues to be embattled. Dlohcierekim Deleted? 16:38, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

   There is no ongoing conflict where it would be appropriate for me to start more formal conflict resolution. I'm not going to file RFC for an inactive sock puppet. I've found lesser means adequate, so far. There are people who think of me as some kind of enemy, but that is their problem, not mine, and I've done what I can to respond as appropriate, and, as will be explained -- with proof --, I've even tried to help them find a way to resolve the issue, since the basic problem is that they don't trust me.

7. Oppose Low edit count.Curious why previous RFA link was not put at the offset.Sorry but will support you in the future but not now.Good luck .Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 19:11, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

   It did not occur to me. It was obvious that the prior RfA existed, given the title of this page. But I did not set up this RfA, and I was asked simply to answer some questions, which I did. I then noticed that there was an incorrect reference to history on the Talk page and I eventually figured out how to fix that, but used an older edit count tool taken from my last RfA, as I recall. Now, how much effort should I put in to making what appears here perfect? I agree, the link should be there, but should I stay up all night to polish everything, double-check it all, or should I just present myself to the community, answer honestly, and trust the process? This is a wiki. If there is an error, fix it, and someone did. Thanks. --Abd (talk) 07:48, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

8. Oppose per Pharaoh. Majoreditor (talk) 21:30, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
9. Oppose - not enough edits yet.   jj137 (talk) 03:41, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
10. Oppose First, because IAR is the last resort, to be invoked only when nothing else is possible and there will be essentially total consensus on the result. It is not the guiding principle of ordinary work at WP -- If used that way, it is a prescription for chaos. The basic foundational rules that have obtained general consensus are the guiding principles.
    

    Second, because at the ADHD articles he cites as his best work, I see him taking a very judgmental view of the material, trying single handedly to sort out the contending experts, and citing his own personal knowledge. (That I agree with him on most of the actual issues is irrelevant.) If he acts this way as an admin., he will cause more trouble than he solves.

    Third, because I have the uncomfortable feeling the ed. intends to use WP as an study case for decision-making systems, and I do not feel we can take the risk involved in being an experimental subject. And finally, since he says that "I do not expect that I could perform much of the ordinary mop work." I think perhaps he would have been wiser to follow his first instincts and decline the nomination.DGG (talk) 05:11, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

    Wow. Dlohcierekim Deleted? 05:14, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

    "If they don't want to do what the community wants, they may refuse to act, but may never use the tools contrary to the consensus of the community." The question was which policies are crucial to your role as an administrator; it is not synonymous with which policy do you invoke first as an administrator. — Dark ^(talk) 05:49, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

    ". I don't know what kind of work I'll be doing, exactly, so I can't predict which specific guidelines and policies will be most important to my use of the tools. Not having had the buttons, I have not studied the actual policies involved in their use, " That makes reason 4, that he does not yet know what being an admin entails, and does not actually know WP policy. I commend him for having the good sense to recognize it. After he does learn about the polices here, he should reapply, for such candidness is in fact a good comment for the future. DGG (talk) 17:52, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

    DGG's comment here was the only one which has actually hurt, because of the respect I have for him. However, even a very good administrator can deposit a "steaming pile of crap." Joke. Subtle reference to Arbcomm case. Attempt to express that this process should be fun! Deflection of pain. And, seriously and to the point, DGG is of course correct, but I think he has overlooked that Rule Number 1 is, indeed, Rule Number 1. If someone does not understand Rule Number 1, they will not understand the rest of the rules, and they may actually be dangerous. Rule Number 1, misunderstood, is indeed the cause of a lot of grief. It doesn't mean "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law." It means that the welfare of the project, and therefore the community, comes first. Understanding that rule makes one a teachable child, so to speak, and we don't hand guns to children. It takes understanding how that rule has worked out in practice, the statutory and common law of the community, before one can be a competent enforcer of the law (all the lrules, not just number one). Many people see WP:IAR and think of it as some radical thing. It isn't. It is ancient common law, the very foundation of all law. I look at User:Jimbo Wales' recent administrative actions, and I wonder about some of them, they do not seem particularly sophisticated. But, boy, did he ever get some things right! And on a very deep level. --Abd (talk) 19:13, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

11. Strong oppose. I don't believe Abd has the people skills to be trusted in any way to represent the Wikipedia community. I must conclude that whatever intelligence, skills and enthusiasm he offers, this is fully offset by his ability to turn people off from future editing of Wikipedia through his continual judgement of motives and good faith edits by users. Tom Ruen (talk) 02:40, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

    Tom, it would be helpful to me if you could cite an example where my assessment of a user's contributions was inappropriate. In nearly every case I assume good faith; however, you have seen me dealing with sock puppets, banned users, where an assumption of good faith can necessarily break down; but even then I continue to assume it where I can. Consider User:MilesAgain. He continually accused me of being uncivil for noting that he was a sock puppet, and likewise User:Tbouricius has complained about me noting that he is a Conflict of Interest editor, you have seen this again and again, and I think you may have swallowed some of it. Those were not uncivil and they were not attacks. In the case of Bouricius, I was careful to explain to him that "COI" was, for him, quite properly a badge of honor, he has been a public servant and he continues to try to serve; but that he has a clear COI means that he should stay away from contentious editing, as should have MilesAgain even if he had been legitimate, as he claimed. (That he was a sock was blatant from his contributions, but who he was, wasn't blatant. If it had been, he'd have been out of here much more quickly.) I'd also appreciate, if it is possible, an example of someone who has been "turned off from future editing of Wikipedia," due to contact with me. Truly. This is not a rhetorical question. Maybe I could apologize, I do make mistakes. That claim, however, was made by one of the editors solicited for comment here, indeed (I don't recall if he asserted it here directly); however, this was the pot calling the kettle black, his behavior was known to have driven off at least one expert, who does sometimes check back in but has become quite cynical about Wikipedia as a result of persistent POV management of an article. The interventions which made me so unpopular with some were designed to encourage several of these editors to be active. It is quite discouraging to spend hours researching and writing material, for a newcomer, to have it be reverted out with "see WP:RS" or worse. It's especially discouraging to an expert in the field and encounter this, such users will often write from their own knowledge; and when that happens, we really should work with them to find sources to verify their edits, not simply reject them. --Abd (talk) 04:21, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

12. Oppose. You don't have to look further than "Q: What are your best contributions to Wikipedia, and why? A: They are yet to come." Without substantial editing (and without the associated interactions) in the mainspace, one cannot have sufficient appreciation of the situations that may arise requiring admin intervention. -- Iterator12n ^Talk 06:22, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

    What's the problem with that answer? With increasing knowledge of policy, you can definitely increase your editing capabilities. You cannot expect to know everything at the start. — Dark ^(talk) 06:35, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

    That's the trouble: starting with an adminship, and not starting with creative editing minus the mop. -- Iterator12n ^Talk 22:42, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

13. Oppose per this report at WP:AN/3RR and the associated 2000 word diatribe when your request is denied. I opposed last time on this issue, and I see no progress since then. Please, Abd, target responses that are about 10% the length of your current responses. Brevity is the key. Ronnotel (talk) 13:47, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

    The incident involved subsequently consumed far more administrator time than it would have taken this administrator to actually read that "diatribe," taking possibly several minutes, noticed the substance, and act. This, by the way, is the incident I referred to above when I said it pushed a button. Long story. Administrators should not reject 3RR reports that they find inconveniently formed; rather, they should leave alone what they not don't care to address in substance, or don't have the time for, or they could actually serve the new user, and the community as a whole, by assisting instead of complaining about the user's ignorance. Never should a newbie be insulted with a word like "diatribe." (While I'd been editing for two years since registration, I'd only begun serious editing for a few weeks.) This incident could actually be a good example for WP:BITE. Instead of listening and helping, he rejected input from the unsophisticated community, because it was not in the exact form expected; I provided Contributions links to some IP edits, short lists of edits, most of them totally inappropriate reverts, possibly block-worthy individually, causing him to have to make, if he cared to investigate, one more click per block of contributions. I repeatedly asked how to respond to 3RR violations by an IP editor, with no answer. As I mentioned above, one of the tasks I'd be inclined to assume would be assisting new editors attempting to deal with 3RR and other incidents; this is an example of where having some buttons might be slightly more efficient. It's not necessary, though, I could assist without that. Good idea, thanks. I do know now how to file a report, and, indeed, learned within a few days of that incident about the form for diffs (it is amazing how one can overlook something so simple, but it happens more often as we get older, I've been told). As to "no progress," sure. A snowed-out RfA to one which is still, at this point, showing a majority in favor, with the large majority of opposition being based purely on edit count? Well, we can't find consensus by rejecting *any* opinion out of hand, no matter how ridiculous it may seem, so, Ronnotel, thanks for for expressing yours, it takes all kinds to make a community.

    As to the substance and subject here, which isn't Ronnotel, had I possessed the tools at that time, I would not have been able to use them, I'd have had to file a report like anyone else, because I was an involved editor, and these edits weren't vandalism. In fact, while in a case like this I'd again file a report, I've refrained from filing others even when I've seen 3RR and other blockable violations, because I've found that warnings suffice, usually, even though those warned sometimes think I'm attacking them. I'm sure they'd get more upset if they were blocked, which is one more example of how the tools are a minor convenience and the temptation to use them a risk for those who don't understand conflict of interest. Without the tools, I can't make the mistakes I've seen. But neither can I act as quickly and efficiently, where I'm not personally involved, which isn't currently common because I'm not at this point patrolling Special:Recentchanges or the like. When I see stuff, it is because I've taken an interest in the article, or sometimes in a user (because of activity with articles I'm interested in), same issue.--Abd (talk) 15:52, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

    I apologize if you feel my tone was WP:BITEy. I assure you, my intention was to provide honest feedback. I believe you'll have more success as an editor and, eventually, an administrator if you can find a way to make your comments much more concise. Ronnotel (talk) 16:19, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

    Thanks. However, please do not confuse my expanded discussion in Talk, and detail in reports that may require some investigation, with my ability to be concise in action. I can be quite concise, but it takes me much more time. I do it where I seek to immediately influence someone or some community. Most of my Talk is not polemic, though some think it is, it is simply discussion, the exploration of a topic, often from more than one point of view in a single piece. Should, through some unfortunate congruence of planets, I become an administrator, you can be sure that official actions would be accompanied by cogent and brief comment, and only result in extended discussion when needed in review, not that I expect I would use the buttons in any controversial way. I disagree with the claim that Wikipedia is not a battleground, it obviously is in spite of the intention, but administrators, if they are going to struggle with "the evildoers, the forces of darkness, quackery, fancruft fanatics, and all other Satanic influences," should definitely take their administrator hats off and keep the buttons in the holster. Basic principle: if anyone is forced to read what I write, I must, out of courtesy, spend the time to boil it down to essence. So I also apologize for my clumsiness in that 3RR report. What I wrote about the experience, however, from the point of view of an example of a clumsy and inexperienced user trying to help the project by reporting abuse that he quite correctly identified, must stand. It's not about Ronnotel; as with most of my comment, it is about the principles and how we can better serve readers and editors. --Abd (talk) 17:23, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

14. Strongly oppose. I would echo Scuro's comments - Abd has a tendancy to get personal when challenged (see here) and does not assume good faith. Scuro and I oppose each other in viewpoint on the ADHD and controversy article we are currently researching but can manage to get along without getting personal. Though I'm sure Abd is well versed in Wiki policy, his long, l-o-n-g comments don't so much instruct as put you off or make you lose the will to live [4]. If you look at my talk page you will see it mostly taken up by Abd's comments. Miamomimi (talk) 18:04, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

    I read those comments in their entirely and it doesn't seem like anything but a thoughtful discussion which we was attempting to inform with personal experience. The tone of your comments there seemed more rude than his, in my opinion. As for the length of his remarks on this and other pages, he's a verbose guy but darned if he doesn't post a lot of insightful, well-reasoned points Sarsaparilla (talk) 18:47, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

    I was invited to comment here and gave an honest response which I could have elaborated on such as [5] and [6] I didn't expect an argument. I was asked for my opinion in a discussion, I gave it. Surely part of an admins job is people skills. I find posting unsolicited 'well-reasoned' editing instruction on peoples talk pages wierd and Abd's tone often sarcastic and arrogant but it takes ages to give you examples of a general impression borne of reading so much stuff! I was asked for my opinion, I've given it. Miamomimi (talk) 22:25, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

15. Oppose. Not experienced enough. By user's own assessment, he doesn't particularly need the tools. It's just a shame that a decent editor has to go through this RfA when he didn't even particularly want to. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wryspy (talk • contribs) 21:20, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
16. Oppose. Not enough experience yet to meet my standards. Useight (talk) 22:13, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
17. Marginal oppose per my criteria for RfA. Lengthy answers to almost every oppose suggest a certain "I am right, and I'm going to pound this keyboard until I persuade you" attitude. Prefer a more conciliatory, 'listening' approach and a more economical, concise style - I infer that clarity of expression mirrors clarity of thought. Kim Dent-Brown ^(Talk) 02:01, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

    Your concern has inspired me to address the larger problem of inadequate usage of conciseness in the Wikipedia community by writing a new essay, Wikipedia:Conciseness, which I hope will open a dialog on these issues (the term "dialog" being used here in the sense of "a reciprocal conversation between two or more persons" rather than carrying an implicit numerical restriction on involvement to two people as connoted by the Greek prefix "di-".) Sarsaparilla (talk) 04:09, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

1. (edit conflict) Thanks, Kim. Don't hold your breath for the "economical, concise style," though, I have ADHD, not marginal, and to be concise takes me far more time than to simply write what I would say to you if we were talking. I explain above about this, and I don't mind at all any editor commenting that I'm too verbose, though it's not terribly useful information to me, since I already know it and really do wish it were practical to do something about it. Note that when it's important that I be concise, I can do it, but that is typically when I have a focused point to make. If I were trying to convince you of something, to "persuade" you, as you seem to infer from my writing, I assure you, I'd be quite concise, with each word carefully chosen. But I'm doing something different here, I am, so to speak, sharing what I think about the issues that come up, so that you can, if you choose to read it and consider it, make a more informed judgment about me. I'm not trying to control that judgment; in fact I trust it (that is, I trust the collective judgment, and the collective judgment necessarily includes free individual judgment, all of it). I do listen and consider all that is written here, all the complaints, as well as all the praise. Now, this raises another issue: How do you know if I'm listening or not? In person, you'd know, if you were awake. But personal presence is high-bandwidth, far higher than this very narrow medium of symbolic communication. I've been communicating on-line for over twenty years, beginning with the WELL (virtual community) as an, ahem, moderator. I was long a moderator -- still am, technically -- of the Usenet newsgroup soc.religion.islam. One thing one learns pretty quickly, if one wants to stay sane in environments like that, particularly the very hot newsgroup, is to be very careful about reading minds from written text. Under the right conditions, I can read minds in person, often, with facility, and some other people can read mine. In person, what might take me a page of text, here, can sometimes be expressed -- and acknowledged -- with the eyes, in one moment, it still does not cease to amaze me. But with the written word, it takes special conditions. Read the Support comments above. Most of those users I never heard of before. Yet, apparently, they think I'm saying something. Do you believe what I'm saying to you? If not, why not? I can guarantee you, I may be mistaken, I may be socially unskilled in certain ways, but I'd never try to deceive you. I'd rather die. As to responding to the oppose comments, most of them raise some interesting point; if they don't, or if the point has been previously addressed, I'm not responding to keep hammering nails (though all will be personally thanked on the Talk page here before we are done, regardless of the outcome of this). One more point: I think dialectically. That means that if you say "A", I immediately think "not-A." And I might express it. Drives some people crazy. But my goal is not to convince them of "not-A," it is to find the synthesis, or, alternatively, to really establish "A" as a solid fact, because "not-A" has been thoroughly considered and rejected. Look, if I don't respond, how would you know at all if I heard you or not?--Abd (talk) 04:21, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

   In person, you don't necessarily know whether someone's listening either, unless you conduct spot checks. See Listening_problems#Pseudolistening. Sarsaparilla (talk) 04:29, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Neutral

1. Trustworthy editor, however lack of experience in areas that relate to using the extra buttons. Addhoc (talk) 11:26, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
2. Neutral at present. I am inclined to support, but would first like to see a comment from you relating to the diff highlighted by Rudget, naming you as another user's proxy voter. In which votes is not specified. --Anthony.bradbury^"talk" 13:28, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

   I explained above. That wasn't my action, it was a test userbox, I did not approve it, and even if we had a proxy voting system in place, and we don't, I would not be soliciting proxies. --Abd (talk) 08:36, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

   comment went under wrong comment Have a look at Scuro's talk page. Dlohcierekim Deleted? 16:28, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

3. Neutral -I'm concerned about the lack of experience, and am unsure about supporting, but the concerns aren't enough to oppose. I do think that Abd has shown a good knowledge of policy, and will keep an eye on this RfA for anything that may cause me to change my mind. In any case, best of luck to Abd, and please don't get disheartened if this fails; you will still be an excellent editor. Keilana|^{Parlez ici} 17:56, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

   Don't worry, I'm not holding my breath on this RfA. I would not have initiated it, (and don't plan to initiate one in the future). This has nothing to do with editing articles or working on policy. Legislators don't carry guns, Wikpedians working on guidelines and structural traditions don't need admin tools.--Abd (talk) 08:36, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

4. Neutral I see a very good editor in your future...you have a good knowledge of wikipedia's policy, but the lack of experience doesn't quite want to make me support yet. I'll vote for you in another RFA, just maybe later. Spencer^T♦C 18:51, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
5. Neutral - You're a good candidate, but need just a bit more experience. Up the mainspace counts, and it would be a support from me. Mastrchf91 (^t/_c) 02:08, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

   Thanks. I need some advice. Should I make more mistakes in mainspace edits so I can get two or three for one? --Abd (talk) 08:36, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

   From Dloh's comment below, I suspect that this may be read as purely sarcastic. There was no element of sarcasm in the "Thanks." The real point of the question was to raise the issue of edit counts once again, as I see this as a basic issue here (if not for it, I'd be down at the leather shop getting fitted for my button holster). Edit count is radically manipulable, deliberately or through editing habits, some of which are harmful. I don't see any substitute for a careful examination of the edit history of a nominee. I did that with the only RfA that I recall voting in, and came up with some problems in spite of edit count. Making a snap judgment in an AfD with a "per nom" comment is really quick. So I asked about it, with my Oppose vote. The nominee responded with appropriate recognition that it had been an error, and, even though I still had some concerns, switched my vote to Support. I'm impressed whenever someone admits an error, it is a trait that can make up for many shortcomings. Now, should I make some mistakes so that I can then get some points for admitting them? Joke! <---- humor. Not serious. --Abd (talk) 18:53, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

6. Switch to neutral per this part of his response to Ronnotel below (my emphasis): "As to the substance and subject here, which isn't Ronnotel, had I possessed the tools at that time, I would not have been able to use them, I'd have had to file a report like anyone else, because I was an involved editor,". I still think the nominee is a bit of a hot head. (If you want to know why, just read some of his responses. RfA is stressful, so I'll cut him some slack, but having the buttons isn't always a walk in the park either.) So I can't support. But he does seem to trying to help and do more than POV push. His response to conflict seems to be overly zealous, and that turns a lot of people off. The most important traits an admin can have may be the ability to entertain the idea that one might be wrong coupled with patience with the wrongness of others. I just don't see that. And really, the wordiness is not helping. Dlohcierekim Deleted? 16:55, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

   And the sarcasm. Kindly lose that as well. Dlohcierekim Deleted? 16:57, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

   Humor is frequently problematic in written communication; however, AGF. Assume it is humor rather than any kind of biting sarcasm. I am not writing here for newbies, but for a community that I will be working with whether or not I get the admin bit. What sarcasm? Can I get Dloh to change his vote back? Behind every apparent sarcasm, for me, is an attempt to explore some point; think of it as excessively terse! I can only guess what he had in mind. Was it the comment above about making mistakes in mainspace edits? There is a real issue there, one of the basic ones that this RfA explores: what does edit count reveal? Some editors apparently don't use Show Preview, and will make a half-dozen edits fixing punctuation. I dislike this practice, because it fills up History, making it harder to find stuff, but I do also make mistakes. However, it would be easier for me to just Save page. The sarcasm involved there, I'd guess, is that I know the answer, I should not avoid Preview, and independently I know how offensive it would be for me to deliberately manipulate my edit history to up my edit count, even if it would probably never attract notice, but that nevertheless I raise the question to make a point about edit count. Was it effective?--Abd (talk) 18:42, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

   Actually, it comes across as biting and antagonistic. It almost set my oppose in concrete. Sometime less is more. Usually, the more words one uses, the easier it is to dig oneself into a whole hole. Dlohcierekim Deleted? 18:46, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

   Yes. Were I trying to convince readers of anything, I'd be quite contained and quite likely more persuasive. However, there may be a method to my madness. Watch out for that concrete, it's wet!--Abd (talk) 18:59, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

   I'm not the sharpest tack in the box, but I think Dgg was right when he said, "Third, because I have the uncomfortable feeling the ed. intends to use WP as an study case for decision-making systems, and I do not feel we can take the risk involved in being an experimental subject. I guess is to late to avoid. Dlohcierekim Deleted? 19:26, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

7. Neutral to avoid pileon, something I don't normally do, but I see no harm in this fellow, other than he (a) doesn't want to be, and (b) doesn't have the knowledge to be, an admin. I wish he had simply declined.  RGTraynor  00:30, 12 February 2008 (UTC)