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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Coredesat (talk | contribs) at 21:27, 29 March 2008 (→‎Nowheristan: add). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

< March 27 Deletion review archives: 2008 March March 29 >

28 March 2008

Canadian Royal Family

Canadian Royal Family (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (restore|cache|AfD)

Editors at Wikipedia:WikiProject Commonwealth realms have raised the issue of reinstating this article which was techically not deleted, but has been locked as a redirect (and the locking admin has not responded to requests to reverse this decision), effectively making the page impossible to restore, as though it were deleted. --G2bambino (talk) 15:28, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Allow recreation based on the sandbox version the wikiproject has created at Wikipedia:WikiProject Commonwealth realms/Sandbox which seems like a good basis for an article. Davewild (talk) 16:46, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Allow recreation per the above. --Haemo (talk) 17:08, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • That… actually looks really good. Nice job! Based on the sandbox version, I say Allow recreation. It still needs a little copyediting in spots, but it's a well-written and well-sourced article, from what I see. -- Kesh (talk) 20:28, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The "article" is a well-written POV essay, full of utterly unencyclopaedic nonsense. "her family is considered Canada's Royal Family" Really? By whom? "Though it would be possible for other members of the Royal Family to be granted distinctly Canadian titles" - would it? Says who?. I could go on. Perhaps an article on Royalty in Canada could outline the theory that there is a concept of a Canadian Royal family - but to have an article that assumes it factually exists in inherently POV. This is royal-cruftiness of the first degree. Keep deleted and redirected--Docg 01:38, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge whatever is useful in that sandbox to the article on the Monarchy in Canada. When I read it, it felt like a rehash of the article of the British Royal Family (which is the Royal family in Canada to the most part). User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 01:45, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Allow recreation --Ibagli rnbs (Talk) 01:48, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep as a redirect and merge anything useful to the target (Monarchy of Canada). The sandbox article still has POV problems , unfortunately, so recreating based on that is not a good idea. — Gavia immer (talk) 13:50, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do not recreate. Monarchy in Canada contains the material already, there is no need for a separate article to duplicate it. Canadians do not see the Windsor-Mountbattens as a "Canadian Royal Family". Indeed, many Canadians chafe at the fact that the Queen is our Head of State. The existing redirect is the right way to handle this, in fact it should be modified to point directly to Monarchy in Canada#Canadian Royal Family. PKT (talk) 14:35, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep as redirect. I agree wholly with the concerns of Dogg. There's no reason to have Monarchy of Canada and Canadian Royal Family. They are at best redundant and at worst POV forks. --JayHenry (talk) 16:44, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Allow recreation What more could one want? The article has a good size and plenty of reliable sources (department of Canadian heritage!). --Cameron (t/c) 17:35, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep as redirect. Basically exactly the same as British Royal Family (all the same members for one!). An article on it shows POV, and a section on Monarchy in Canada in enough.--UpDown (talk) 18:48, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep as redirect Since what is purported to be the Canadian Royal Family is the British Royal Family there is no need for a separate article. In a Canadian context there are a few names and events which are appropriate to mention. But these are mentioned in a section in Monarchy of Canada. An article on the Canadian Royal Family would be a replication of British Royal Family with these few references added. One of the arguments for reinstating the article is that Monarchy of Canada is too long. If it is felt it is too long (and Wiki advice in the matter is a guideline, not a mandate), the logical thing to do would be to make it more concise, not divide it into multiple articles. But a Canadian Royal Family would in fact defeat the purpose of making treatment of the Canadian Monarchy more concise. For Canadian Royal Family would end up another long article:to place it in context material from MoC would have to be replicated there. And the section on the CRR in MoC would not, I suspect, be deleted, and only marginally truncated. So Monarchy in Canada would not be substantially shorter.--Gazzster (talk) 21:19, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse redirect - the request does not address the fundamental problem that the article was essentially a POV-fork. In fact, it seems to argue the same POV. Guy (Help!) 21:21, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Paddy Lawlor

Paddy Lawlor (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (restore|cache|AfD)

Speedy deleted as a CSD A7, but there was a clear assertion of notability on the article, namely, that Lawlor was the captain of GAA club Emo. As the admin who speedied it noted, Emo is hardly a glamour club, but an assertion of notability is an assertion of notability. Lankiveil (speak to me) 14:41, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment It's distinctly marginal as an A7 deletion but would suggest just redirecting to Emo GAA unless you have some reliable sources for more than what was in the deleted article. There was little in the article that would not be out of place on the Emo GAA article but without some coverage in reliable sources a bio could not be written. Davewild (talk) 16:38, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, there's this, which implies the guy has a trophy/competition named after him, also the Carlow Nationalist lists him as the captain of Emo in 1972 for their first and only premiership. His career pre-dates the Internet, which makes Googling him difficult, but certainly there appears to be sources available to conclude this is not just a hoax. But it's not the sources that matter, it's the fact that the deletion was done out of process, as User:Hobit notes below, the speedy criteria are there for a reason. Lankiveil (speak to me) 02:51, 29 March 2008 (UTC).[reply]
  • Endorse own deletion. I'll agree it's not a brightline A7 but with respect to Paddy, there's no point in restoring it and sending it to AFD where it is highly likely to be redeleted. Support a redirect. Stifle (talk) 19:49, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • list in AfD The speedy criteria are there for a reason and it wasn't followed. That's all deletion review should be worried about. Hobit (talk) 00:34, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • list in afd we basically have 3 choices:
  1. we can list everything in AfD, and discuss 10 times as many articles a day
  2. we can speedy delete whenever an admin thinks its non notable
  3. we can have rules, and follow them. Those who want to tweak the rules can propose tweaks at WT:CSD. in the meantime, admins are obliged to follow them as they exist.

True, I would just love to start deleting on my own accord any article suggested to be non notable--I could cut the encyclopedia to half its size very quickly. DGG (talk) 03:17, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nowheristan

Nowheristan (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (restore|cache|AfD)

Before reposting, the article was re-written and reformatted to meet the criteria. Many things were amended in it to make it suitable. It was no longer presented as a country with a countrybox; instead I put it in the Micronations and Utopias categories. I changed its introduction which was previously written in a non-encyclopedic style. I added to its external links a recent press article published in one of the most serious European weekly magazines. Still, the article was deleted in no time: just minutes! It is extremely frustrating for an editor to see their work deleted so quickly, without warning or debating. I suppose this would only be acceptable for vandalism. What if I had given my article another title like "The Great Empire of Nowheristan" instead of just "Nowheristan". Would the adminsitrator who deleted it have taken more time to read it before deleting it? It would not have appeared to him/her as a repost in the frist place right? I believe this article does belong in Wikipedia after the modifications I brought to it. Please tell me if it requires additional modifications and I will apply them in the best way I can or even ask for help. But please don't treat it as vandalism. Thank you Ttiinnaabauer (talk) 14:10, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Overturn Article that was speedied now has some reliable sources (only though a coupleone of the links does not work) to establish notability. The article which was deleted at AFD had no reliable secondary sources and none were brought forward at the AFD. It therefore does not meet the G4 speedy criteria as the main reason for deletion is being addressed. Davewild (talk) 16:27, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - I'd like to see a userfied version before making further comment. These micro nations are often hoaxes, but properly sourced it could survive as an article. I'd like to see what changes Ttiinnaabauer made. -- Kesh (talk) 20:32, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The sources quoted in the article were 1,2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 Davewild (talk) 20:38, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I would gladly show the changes to Kesh, but how can I do that technically? What is the way so long as I have no green light to repost the article? As for the external sources, two of them have indeed expired, namely 3 and 5. I found a new link for 3, but am still unable to fix 5. Will work on it. Any other hints that can help me save the article are warmly welcome. Cheers. Ttiinnaabauer (talk) 21:24, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I found a working link for source 5 from Google's cache. Better than nothing. Ttiinnaabauer (talk) 21:55, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
#1 is the site of the "country" itself, which is not going to work for notability or verfiability, so discounted. I'm afraid my German is ill-equipped for #2, so i had to rely on Google translation, but most of the article is about the founder and not Nowhereistan itself. In fact, it explicitly names it as a "fictional nation." #3 is, again, primarily about the founder; Nowhereistan gets the barest mention. #4 and #5 are much the same. It sounds to me like the founder himself is notable enough for an article, but Nowhereistan is barely a blip on the radar. It's not even a notable Internet fad. Based on this, I Endorse Deletion. Instead, a redirect to Michel Elefteriades#Nowheristan would be appropriate.
Knights Templar and popular culture (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (restore|cache|AfD)

The following “popular culture” article was deleted following an AfD in which now banned editors Burntsauce, Golfcam, and Eyrian as determined by two arbitration cases and check users disruptively participated and therefore unduly clouded the results. Without their vote fixing and violations of Point, the AfDs might have closed as keep or no consensus, especially as evidenced by the more recent trend of “in popular culture” articles closing as keep since the aforementioned accounts were blocked. Therefore, I respectfully request that the AfD's closure be overturned and the article restored. Sincerely, Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 01:17, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • 'endorse deletion' While I likely would have !voted to keep, I think the discussion was clear. Sorry. Hobit (talk) 01:25, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • At least two of those advocating delete are accounts that were banned for in part disuprtive AfDs pertaining specifically to "in popular culture" articles. Moreover, the subject of the Knights Templar and their portrayal in popular culture has been covered in academic sources. The article should at least be restored so that we have a real chance to update, reference it, and then if it is nominated again have a discussion not impaired by those banned accounts. Actually, make that three of those who argued to delete the article have been blocked as sockpuppeters. I do not believe we had a fair discussion with three disruptive sock accounts participating in the discussion. Now that those individuals have seem to have given Wikipedia some rest (I hope), why not restore the article and have a more fair discussion? Best, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 01:28, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • I'll abstain given the above and comments made by others. I think the AfD would likely have gone the same way, but given it was tainted, I don't see the harm in relisting. Hobit (talk) 20:47, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Relist I won't argue now for keep (though I will at the forthcoming Afd), just that the manner of participation of the banned editors and their known use of sockpuppets for editwarring in general, as confirmed for Burntsauce and Eyrian by Arbcom decisions, & Golfcam by a straightforward CheckUser, contaminated the Afd beyond possible validity. Article nominated by Otto4771, who voted with them frequently. Closed without closing summary. But I wouldn't however blame anyone for being misled by the group of eds. who--with considerable skill--joined to attack this article. It's time to start undoing the damage Burntsauce & Eyrian did before the community caught on and ejected them. I hope Sr13 will choose to revert the close himself (GRC has invited him here, of course.) DGG (talk) 02:15, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No opinion at this time, but I'd just like to go on record that I consider the comment above an unjustifiable slur against Otto4711 (note the correct user name). Deor (talk) 04:11, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion. AfD is not a vote. Whether banned users made points during the discussion or not, the conclusion came down to which arguments the closing admin felt were better. If the !vote had been 100 keeps and one delete, and the delete reason was the only tenable one, then that's the way the close should go. Corvus cornixtalk 02:18, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
it does matter who made them. We wouldnt count their opinions now if they showed up by sockpuppet. After a Arbcom ban on a sysop like Eyrian, it's usual to revisit what they've been engaged in. DGG (talk) 02:24, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Plus, myself, and other participants in that discussion had to contend with a good deal of elsewhere harassment by the banned users in question and their alternate accounts elsewhere. There is a reason why in the original AfD, once Eyrian participated, I let the discussion drop and moved on even though I would have greatly liked to participate further and expand on the reasons for keeping, but increasingly my mentor (Chaser) advised me on and off-wiki to disengage from Eyrian as much as possible as he became increasingly hostile against me. Notice Eyrian's vote followed my argument. It would be nice to have a fair discussion this time. Moreover, I agree and have learned over time that AfD is indeed note a vote; however, the banned participants of that discussion and their allies approached all "in popular culture" AfDs as copy and paste votes, as I indicated in my evidence in the one ArbCom. Best, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 02:33, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • relist per DGG and Le Grand Roi des Citrouilles's observation that this is a pop culture topic that has been covered in academic sources. JoshuaZ (talk) 02:40, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion, consensus to delete was clear, regardless of the banned user's involvement. --Coredesat 03:18, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Consensus has changed though and we should be given an actually chance to evaluate the article without THREE banned editor's disrupting and fixing the discussion. Let us have a discussion not marred by multiple single-purpose anti-in popular culture bad faith accounts. Such a discussion cannot possibly reflect actual consensus. There is no disadvantage in giving the article another look, maybe a real chance to be improved, and a fair discussion. Why not even in a worst case scenario restore the article so editors' contributions are available to the public and redirect the article to here? Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 03:19, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Relist The AfD was contaminated beyond all usability as described and consensus to delete was not clear. Rather than re-argue here, relist per DGG and LGRdC and argue there. That seems the fairest course since a DRV is about process, and process integrity was breached beyond repair in the AfD unless relisted or overturned. LGRdC's comments describe what amounts to jury tampering and should be very troubling to those that believe in fair process. Corvus cornix's endorse argument makes no sense in that context, and Hobit even admits to a keep vote. Relist and discuss the article merits there, or overturn and keep the article. — Becksguy (talk) 03:51, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion. Even discounting the opinions of the banned or blocked users named in the nomination above, by my count the !vote was 8 for delete and 2 for keep (with one user advocating a different solution, which involved removing the article to a Talk page). With regard to the assertion that those "illegitimate" opinions somehow influenced the AfD, I demur, noting that the only opinions that specifically referred to the opinion of another participant were two that questioned the "keep" rationale of DGG, neither of which was offered by one of the questionable participants. To assert that the opinions of the eight Wikipedians who thought that the article was worthy of deletion were somehow invalid seems to me disingenuous at best and insulting at worst. There is no evidence that the close of the AfD was faulty in any procedural aspect, so why are we here? Deor (talk) 06:56, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • The keep arguments, however, were much stronger than the delete votes. The evidence is overwhelmingly that the AfD process was disrupted and therefore we must have a do over as it is entirely possible that the banned participants' opinions unduly influenced other participants in the discussion. If you are not here to add anything constructive to this discussion, than I am not sure why you are here. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 13:52, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion - DRV is not AFD round 2, and nothing has been offered in this DRV to indicate that the consensus reached at this eight-month-old AFD was in error. Otto4711 (talk) 09:26, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Relist The closer did not provide a detailed rationale. Since the presence of multiple socks introduces an element of doubt, we should take another look at this. Colonel Warden (talk) 10:20, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion Not AfD round 2, and consensus was fairly clear even without the couple of since-banned editors. Having said that, there might be an article which could usefully look at the cultural aspects of the Knights Templar. But this wasn't it. Those voting to restore would be better off rebuilding the article from scratch, using those tiresome things that we don't see in pop culture articles a lot, like "quality control" and "sources". Black Kite 11:17, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • There is no reason not to allow us a chance to discuss the article without having to contend with three banned editors marring the discussion. Plus, consensus has clearly changed to keep the article. Considering how many renominations we have for articles that are kept, there is no actual reason why we should not have a new discussion over an article in an instance in which we are certain three of the participants did so disruptively. Plus, as I have already stated, myself and others did NOT participate to our full extent BECAUSE of an effort to avoid further confrontation with Eyrian in particular. Had the banned editors NOT voted in the discussion, it indeed would have gone differently. Also, if you check the edits of even some of the non-banned editors who participated in that AfD on that day, notice the rapidity of their edits and all delete votes in AfDs that occurred so fast in such a copy and paste manner that they are indeed votes and that in no realistic way could have adequately covered the articles in question: example a, example b, and example c. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 13:52, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - I'm not comfortable enough with my opinions on the closing to !vote to either endorse or overturn it. However, I do believe that an article can exist on the topic. That is, it isn't inherently bad. Might be easier to recreate it first and ask for a history merge. --lifebaka (Talk - Contribs) 14:23, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Relist I don't see why it can't be relisted to solve this this dispute. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 15:00, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion in popular culture. Valid deletion, no reason to overturn, the way to deal with bloated trivia sections is to prune them, not split them out into whole articles comprised of nothing but cruft. Guy (Help!) 15:22, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion Nothing out of process here, nor were the reasons given for deletion invalid. This IPC stuff is more often than not glorified trivia and should be expunged. Eusebeus (talk) 15:29, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion I have not seen the original article, but reading the AfD, consensus was clear to delete, even when ignoring arguments by the mentioned users. So if the topic is notable enough, I think it's much better to start from scratch than base it off an article of such bad quality that it has been deleted previously. --Minimaki (talk) 16:58, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Being unable to see the original article makes it difficult to adequately assess whether consensus was valid or not. Three who argued deletion were disruptive sock accounts. Three others were deletion only vote accounts. We should be given a chance to have a real discussion this time based on the article's merits. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 17:20, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rewrite That some of the participants were later banned is not relevant. That some of them were sockpuppets of users already banned is relevant. Factoring out the pair that are now known to have been sockpuppets, and looking at the remaining arguments, things get close, and no consensus could have been a reasonable close. Looking at the actual deleted article, it was just a list of lots of statements that "the knights templar appear in X" for lots of different X. It may or may not be possible to write an encyclopedia article on how they have been used in popular culture, but the content that was there was not an encyclopedia article. Thus I conclude that an article should be written, as opposed to a bulleted list of appearances. GRBerry 17:02, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse — even without the banned users the consensus was clear. --Haemo (talk) 17:10, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Relist - for reasons given by nominator. It'll be the usual suspects I am sure but maybe some new ideas for article improvement will emerge (funny, I missed this one first time 'round..) Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:18, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think you have it right. I do not know what will come of a relisting, but it has promise to improve the encyclopedia. Keeping it deleted does not. alternatively, we don't even need to relist if we write a new and better article with additional sources. Substantially improved articles are not subject to G4. DGG (talk) 03:22, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rewrite In the deleted article, none of the pop culture blurbs are referenced. Had the article been kept, it would have probably stayed that way. More of these blurbs would have been added, and sooner or later, all you would have is a bunch of uncontrollable, unrefed cruft. The best course to take is to just rewrite it from scratch and make sure it doesn't become the dilapidated article it was. Singularity 07:34, 29 March 2008 (UTC) (formerly Sr13)[reply]
    • Could the article perhaps be at least temporarily restored and moved to my userspace so I can see if anything can be salvageable? As Phirazo noted, I have recently (i.e. once the three banned editors were banned) been able to find references for a large number of these sorts of articles and many of their AfDs closed in nearly unanimous keeps. This way, we will be able to preserve the editors' who contributed to the original version of the article public contributions while be able to make a "bold" rewrite at the same time. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 15:36, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Endorse deletion. Just because they were banned doesn't mean they didn't have good opinions. I am very much against popular culture sections in articles, much less spin-off articles about popular culture. Stifle (talk) 19:13, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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