Talk:Israel

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Israel and the Occupied Territories Jerusalem as capital

israel@60

Israel is now 60 years old and celebrates its 60th birthday in may 2008

Indeed. okedem (talk) 10:51, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

True Honesty

It time for a reality check on this one. I think this wiki page is in trouble (very silly that it's an FA). It is solely an advert for Israel and editing is difficult due to the vast number of editors with entrenched views. However, this state was always going to be reached.

The public are, in Europe anyway, often shown on TV the war crimes of the army of Israel and the horrific crimes by people violently opposed to Israel. It is odd that this is not properly described in the article. I suspect the editors are fooling themselves that this footage is canceled or justified by one publicly editable web page.

Wikipedia should be about finding out things you didn't know. Almost all (on this page) engaged in running editing arguments are doing so for political not informative reasons.

• It should indeed be for finding out things you didn't previously know, but not things that constitute original research. Whatever your personal opinion is on Israel, Wikipedia is not a soapbox for you to proliferate it. WilliamH (talk) 17:15, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

I didn't state my personal opinion on Israel. For one, I don't live there or near by and on many related issues don't know enough to have an arguable opinion. I merely question why, in such an expansive article, many events of the last few years shown by international news are not mentioned. By contrast on the Zimbabwe page the recent Human rights abuses are mentioned even thou its only a short section. The same with Northern Ireland, the former Yugoslavia, etc

My opinion, since you ask, is that the editors of this article are politically motivated and too intent on selling Israel. I might call them airing there views on the main page soapboxing. Call stating this questioning of the editors neutralness soapboxing if you will. I accused others of soapboxing and then in turn was accused. As such to avoid wasting my time I shall not continue this. You are feel to agree or disagree. (If it helps I softened the tone and clarified my intent in my original comment in the interests of stopping arguments)

Selling Israel? This article seems like pretty neutral demographic coverage to me. If it's references to the Arab-Israeli conflict you're after, there's loads, just check out the box at the bottom. WilliamH (talk) 18:32, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

(Decided to go against my final intention not to reply but you'l like it). Fair enough, I missed the links and on the whole have changed my mind. Once your read this you might as well delete this sub section.

Apartheid? Come now...

Characterizing Israel as an apartheid state ignores the discussion of this very topic elsewhere in Wikipedia and only serves as a jumping off point for inflammatory nonsense, which is not what the overall issue needs. Ralph Goldenmouth (talk) 02:38, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

It's gone. It was just vandalism and was reverted. Nothing to see here. (Until it comes back.) 6SJ7 (talk) 06:25, 20 April 2008 (UTC

John Pilger, an award-winning Australian born journalist and documentary filmmaker from Sydney, primarily based in London, England, has mentioned in his book "Freedom Next Time" that when he went to Israel, he felt a strong resemblance between the Israeli treatment of Palestinians and that of Apartheid Africa. I don’t live in Israel and I have never been there so I am not in a position to debate anything about whether or not Israel is respecting human rights. What I know though is that many people throughout the world view the Israeli government as an Apartheid regime. This might not be true from a typical North American point of view, but it is almost anywhere else in the world (with a few exceptions in Europe.) I am not suggesting that we should say the Israel is evil, but at least talk about why most of the World’s population regards Israel’s foreign policies as sometimes inhumane.

Jerusalem as the capital of Israel

This is highly controversial, and a more neutral language should be presented. According to international laws, and according to the UN, East Jerusalem is occupied by Israel. And most embassies are located in Tel Aviv. Imad marie (talk) 16:03, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

This is already mentioned in the article. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 16:11, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

No reason to muck up[1] a featured article; Gain consensus first. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 16:39, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

You call putting the "dubious" tag mucking up? Anyhow, my argument is already presented, there is international consensus that East Jerusalem is occupied by Israel, marking Jerusalem simply as the capital of Israel ignores all related international laws. I suggest a more neutral language. Imad marie (talk) 17:16, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

You have yet to comment on the fact that the information already exists in a well-visible footnote. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk)

Really? So you want to put false information in the article, and then explain that in the footnote?! I advice you to come to your senses. Imad marie (talk) 19:20, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

And I advise you to stop personally attacking other users and review Wikipedia's policies before further vandalizing the page. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 19:24, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

You don't put content inside footnotes, footnotes are just there to link or reference your sources. You put content inside the article. Imad marie (talk) 19:34, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Okedem, the factual accuracy of this article is disputed, there is no need for you to remove the tag. Also, about your bizarre edit summary here, since when we put content inside footnotes?! Imad marie (talk) 20:05, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Apparently this is your first time encountering content in footnotes on Wikipedia. This is not uncommon, and footnotes (as opposed to references, although on Wikipedia they are often grouped) are intended to provide explanations for information inside the article where you don't have enough space for an elaboration. Okedem is 100% right. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 20:08, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

For any definition of the word "capital", Jerusalem is Israel's capital, de jure, and de facto. It's Israel seat of government, and Israel designated it as its capital - thus it's the capital. International recognition plays no part in this. Any objections other countries may have cannot change that simple fact, and that's why we should only mention them in a footnote for the lead. Yes, we do put content in footnotes, I don't know what you're surprised about.

I'm removing the tag. The article received FA status with this wording, which enjoys a wide consensus, for being factual and accurate. We can't place tags every time an editor is unhappy with something. okedem (talk) 20:12, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

First, this article being FA does not mean it's indisputable and untouchable, editors may have concerns about the neutrality and factuality about this FA.

Second, about Jerusalem, and about your later edit, concerning the occupation of West Bank and Gaza: East Jerusalem, West Bank and Gaza, are recognized by the international community to be occupied by Israel, there is an international consensus about this. Naturally Israel denies and opposes this, providing its own claims. What you are doing here, is that you are promoting minority views; Israel's view related to the international view is considered to be minor. We have an entire article talking about the complex situation of Jerusalem, putting the simple sentence "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" in this article would be way unfactual. Imad marie (talk) 08:02, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

• You're ignoring what I said. "Capital" is a simple word, found in every dictionary. If you go and search for it, you'll find the definition is usually "seat of government", or close to that. Jerusalem has been designated as capital by Israel, and so is the capital de jure. And it is Israel's seat of government - housing the Parliament, Government ministries, Prime Minister's quarters, President's quarters, Supreme Court and others - so it is the capital de facto. These are the simple facts. While other countries choose not to recognize Jerusalem's status as capital, they cannot change that status. By the very definition of the word, Jerusalem is Israel's capital. International recognition plays no part in this matter.
• The difference between "held" and "occupied" is a fine legal matter, concerning the existence or lack thereof of a sovereign in the territory. For example, as Syria is the internationally recognized sovereign in the Golan heights, it is "occupied" by Israel. On the contrary, no country was recognized as legal sovereign in the West Bank or Gaza before or after 1967, and no country claims these areas (Jordan dropped its demand for the West Bank back in the '80s. The term "held" does not mean it's any less severe than occupation. Anyway, I won't argue over this, the distinction isn't very important.
• The article being FA does not mean it's perfect. It does mean that the phrasing in it is in the consensus, and means that when an editor disagrees with something, they should not hastily place tags. They can discuss the issue on the talk page, but still - unless shown otherwise, the phrasing on the article most likely still represent the consensus, and so will remain. You have to understand something - few editors are completely pleased with the phrasings here. We reached them through a process of compromise. okedem (talk) 08:26, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Comment
Calling Gaza "is occupied since 1967" was pretty absurd. It's also improper to inject controversial politics into the first paragraph.
Reverted. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 09:39, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, you're right about that. Gaza is not occupied nowadays. (Sidenote - Gaza was occupied from 1948 to 1967 by Egypt, which had no legal right to the territory) I do think some note of it should be made in the lead - I mean, right now the phrasing is: "The West Bank and Gaza Strip, which are partially administrated by the Palestinian National Authority, are also adjacent", which begs the question - what about the other part? I mean, "partially administrated by the PLA" - so who administers the other part?

We need to find a good way to phrase this. I do think the occupation/administration of the territories deserves a mention. okedem (talk) 10:02, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

(reply to okedem) I haven't looked up the definition in the dictionary (not yet), however I'm sure this definition applies to non-occupied cities. Also, politically, Jerusalem has been divided into West Jerusalem and East Jerusalem , some claiming that the first is the capital of Israel and the later is the capital of the assumed future Palestinian state.

My point is, I think we all agree that Jerusalem has been the center of a very large dispute in the past 60 years, that's for sure, so you cannot put the simple statement: "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel", that would be ignoring all the opposite facts and claims. I'm looking for a more neutral language, though I'm not sure what this neutral language is yet.

About the occupation. Again, Israel occupies East Jerusalem, West Bank and Gaza, this is what the international community says. It's true there was not legal sovereign then, however that was the case at that time in the Mandate of Palestine following the Ottoman rule, and that's not an excuse to occupy the land from its inhabitants; the Palestinian people. Israelis strongly disagree with this, but what matters is that we present all significant views fairly. Imad marie (talk) 16:20, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

None of this matters to the question at hand. The way a place becomes the capital of a country is that the country selects it as such. There is no historical precedent for a third country, or a lot of third countries, to impose their opinion regarding the location of a sovereign states' capital. Jerusalem is the capital of Israel because Israel says it is. That's how sovereignty works. And how Wikipedia works is that we report the fact that Jerusalem is capital of Israel; then, in the appropriate place, we report that this is controversial. The appropriate place isn't in the boilerplate information about countries. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 16:36, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Look, you're confusing the existence of a controversy over what should be, with what actually is. By the very definition of the word "capital", Jerusalem is Israel's capital. No amount of international scorn can change that fact. This is what we present. It's as simple as that. There are no "opposite facts" to this (actually, no "opposite facts" to anything - facts are facts). Occupation or non-occupation is irrelevant to that point, only thing that matters to this point are the facts - did Israel designate Jerusalem as capital? Yes. Is it Israel's seat of government? Yes. Thus - it's Israel's capital.

Regarding "occupation" etc. - I've explained my view. The justification for the wording "held" (or close) is the fine legal point, not trying to take land away from anyone. Fact is, the laws of occupation are applied to land captured from sovereigns, not land with no political designation, as the West Bank/Gaza. Also, Gaza is not occupied by Israel. Israel left it almost 3 years ago.

As I said, to compromise, I won't pursue this whole "occupied"/"held" point. okedem (talk) 16:38, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Image of Sports section

I think it'll be more appropriate to put the picture Ramat Gan Stadium with israel's fans rather than a league team.

I think that's a good idea. The Stadium picture is clearer, and more representative of sports in Israel. I've made the switch, hope no one objects. okedem (talk) 13:23, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Dolphin class submarine

Are the 3 operational Dolphin class submarine and the two additional ones which are 2x100% 1x50% and 2x33% gifts from Germany notable enough for the main article or should they be added to the military sub article ?--Stone (talk) 14:36, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Probably not notable enough for this article, although they may be notable enough for the Israel Defense Forces article, which is also a parent article to dozens of sub-articles. Also it needs to be mentioned of course in the article on Dolphin-class submarines, as well as the Israel Sea Corps article. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 17:36, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

This article is the focus of a disinformation campaign

Read:

"A pro-Israel pressure group is orchestrating a secret, long-term campaign to infiltrate the popular online encyclopedia Wikipedia to rewrite Palestinian history, pass off crude propaganda as fact, and take over Wikipedia administrative structures to ensure these changes go either undetected or unchallenged.

A series of emails by members and associates of the pro-Israel group CAMERA (Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America), provided to The Electronic Intifada (EI), indicate the group is engaged in what one activist termed a "war" on Wikipedia."

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article9474.shtml —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.111.7.130 (talk) 20:15, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

I can't imagine why editors on this page shouldn't be aware of this. It is also being discussed here. I don't think it describes existing editors - but I think it might well be relevant to future work on this page. Okedem, please be careful about deleting material from a talk page; I don't think your intentions are bad, but it seems that it might appear to others as an attempt to suppress information. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 21:02, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

It's irrelevant to this article; it's completely inactionable; and seems to be placed here merely to insinuate editors here are part of it, as was done in Talk:Jerusalem (maybe by the same editor, I don't know).

You'll forgive if I don't accept "electronicintifada.net" as a credible source, and regard their claims and interpretations as unreliable. I read part of the PDF they refer to, and did not find a basis for a claim such as : "pass off crude propaganda as fact". All I found were calls to make sure the articles are NPOV and accurate, in face of users trying to defame Israel with whole lies and half-truths, something I've watched happen too many times to count.

Do I think such "operations" are a good thing? No, I don't. But there's nothing to be done in the matter, except act according to Wiki policies, as always. It doesn't matter if users of a certain POV operate by group or not. Many of us find support for action from other editors, depending on the matter at hand. This is not the first nor the last time pressure-groups will try to use Wiki for some purpose, wholesome (working for accuracy and NPOV) or otherwise (distorting facts; using article to promote products). We must not pretend these things don't happen, or get too worried when they do. We need to follow Wiki policies and procedures, to ensure edits are backed by reliable sources, and phrased neutrally. Who makes the edits, and to what purpose, is, in the end, completely meaningless.

Such inflammatory comments have no place here, and keeping them is little more than feeding trolls. Furthermore, your last sentence is of great importance ("it might appear to others as an attempt to suppress information") - this is exactly the excuse users can apply to get any conspiracy theory/claim to remain on these pages, regardless of their relevance or veracity. okedem (talk) 21:37, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

It's there to reflect something that is happening. It is sourced and the source is sourced. It therefore lives up to its title. It's very actionable: keep an eye out for deliberate and concerted disinformation. That simple really!- Original Poster —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.111.91.231 (talk) 21:48, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

• We're always doing that anyway. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 21:51, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Crap, they're onto us!--Woland (talk) 18:22, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Okedem, if there is no wiki rule breaking then you have no reason to remove a comment from a talk page. Talk pages exist to allow other views to be aired without affecting the main page. You may regard them as crazy or a conspiracy (as I too often do). However the fact remains you have no right to remove a comment unless both parties agree. I am not accusing you of hiding anything but I do second the request for you not to delete comments from talk pages. --Nano —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nanolover (talk • contribs) 19:14, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Talk pages aren't for people's views, but for discussion on how to improve the article. That is their only reason for existence. Any comment which does not serve that purpose may be deleted. okedem (talk) 20:32, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Turkish army

I am writing regarding a perhaps overlooked statement on your web page. I would greatly appreciate if you could help clarify that statement. Specifically, it says:

"Of the 19 states in this broad region, only 2 Israel and Turkey are democratic (though in Turkey the military still retains a veto on many important issues)."

This was taken from a USAID web page, however does not reflect an accurate picture of Turkey to outsiders.

Army is an important component of Turkey because Turkish culture has always been influenced by army culture. From very early ages of history, Turks appreciated horse riding, bowing, sword fighting, wrestling, etc. Therefore, the role of army in Turkey and its perception among Turkish people is perhaps different than that in some other countries in the world. The dynamics are different. In a way, army is people and people are army.

For example, in Turkey, every young man has to do his military service before he can be counted a "real man". A lot of times marriage or job decisions are deferred because a young man has not completed the army service yet.

Having said that, Turkey has made a lot of progress on democracy. The country is ruled by democratically elected local and state government. Army DOES NOT retain a veto on many important issues. When you make a statement like "the military still retains a veto on many important issues" it is incorrect. There is an 70 year of democracy in Turkey, and it seems to work well.

I think the statement needs to be revised to reflect the current picture more adequately.

I submit this change request for your evaluation.

Respectfully —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.126.98.167 (talk) 13:43, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Since the passage is referenced with a source considered reliable, you would have to come up with another reliable source that says something different about the issue in order to argue successfully for a change here. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 17:38, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

I am bringing up valid concerns about a distorted statement, which sounds funny. I think people can provide "reliable" sources for many different points. As it is right now, it sounds very insulting to Turkey and Turkish people. I am only bringing it up really. You can take this feedback and do whatever you want to do with it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.126.98.167 (talk) 05:27, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Editing process - avoid massive changes in a single edit

Quite apart from the actual content of the edits performed today by User:Winetype, which I'm sure quite a few people will have concerns about, I would imagine it is preferable to make changes in smaller chunks. A very substantial re-write like this is difficult to unpack and assess. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 20:07, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

History

The History section is quite long. How about moving part of it to one the two History articles: History of the State of Israel or History of the Jews in the Land of Israel? Winetype (talk) 20:15, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Israel has had a long and eventful history. During the FA (Featured Article) discussions, a lot of work was done to make the article, including the history section, more concise. I can't really see a way to cut it down further. If you think specific sentences or details could be dropped from the section, without hurting completeness - please detail them here. okedem (talk) 21:15, 28 April 2008 (UTC)