Talk:Michael Reagan

I've added some material here that will at least sketch out Mike's life a bit. It's much better than the previous stub. Too bad the book he cowrote, On the Outside Looking In, isn't in print - it's only available used. It has much valuable information. 209.221.221.213 17:51, 8 Jun 2004 (UTC) avnative

The show is 3 hrs long (6-9pm EST) on the Radio America Network. -btbd

"His father told him since 90 percent of his earnings were taxed by government, he wasn't able to increase Mike's allowance"

But the first part of the sentence (before the comma) cannot be true, since the 90 percent tax bracket certainly did not start at $0. (Unless you're Ronald Reagan's kid, obviously.) That the second part is not true is pretty obvious.

I'd say his father fed him bunk, but that would be OR. GregorB 22:24, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I think it means that Ronald Reagan's income was taxed at 90% and so he (President Reagan) couldn't afford to give Michael more of an allowance. --B 17:35, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Adoption

How did he come to be adopted? -- Y not? 15:17, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I have added Tough Love, reminisces of MR's childhood and his mother Asteriks 10:18, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Mark Dice

The Mark Dice Death Threat has been broken on mainstream media. It was mentioned and played on KFI Los Angeles Bill Handel's 8:45 AM Morning show and is available on podcast. This is the citation that should allow the Mark Dice information to stay on the page. [1] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.42.239.130 (talk) 19:44, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

I've removed the material about Mark Dice. Dice is a notorious culture jammer who has repeatedly tried to use Wikipedia to promote himself. This incident has not been mentioned in any reliable, 3rd-party source that I can find. Until it has been there's no reason to beleive it is notable enough to mention. Talk show hosts say all kinds of things on their shows. Unless a comment has generated enough controversy to be mentioned in 3rd-party sources we don't need to cover it here. We certainly don't need to reference every time Dice gets someone pissed-off at him. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 19:30, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Mark Dice was issued a death threat by this man. Other talk show hosts got in trouble for saying lesser things like Imus. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.239.248.222 (talk) 16:40, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

There is a link to the actual man saying he would pay for the bullets if someone were to shoot Mark Dice in the external links. Say what you want Will Beback, he specifically called for the murder of an individual on a national talk show, a violation of the laws of most states in the United States where this was broadcast, as well and violation of the broadcast license issued by the FCC for the stations that carried the show. This isn't something that should be pulled off the article, as it is historical (I cannot find a single reference of a national broadcaster, even in jest, calling for the murder of an individual) and even if it will be covered by third parties it doesn't need to be buried because you don't like Mark Dice. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.193.237.22 (talk) 22:05, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

If it's newsworthy it'll be picked up by a legitimate news service. If we added every outrageous statement by talk show hosts then the articles would be swamped. If it's as important as you say then it'll get mainstream coverage. There's no hurry. (Also, in researchig this I found a claim that Reagan will have Dice on his show tomorrow, so perhaps this matter will be resolved.) ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:10, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

This is insane. Your 'proof' is right here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdJO-kUINMs&eurl=http://www.nujij.nl/michael-reagan-9-11-truther-moet-dood.2800363.lynkx

How can you deny what has happened here WIll Beback? Exactly what don't you understand about CALLING FOR MURDER, THRICE? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.30.88.83 (talk) 22:12, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

I have added the content back to the article without a specific reference to Mark Dice. Will, you may not want people who read about Mr. Reagan to know that he was the first national talk show how to contract murder over the airwaves, but there is no valid reason to remove the entry. ·:· Bonked ·:· 22:24, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

All material in Wikipedia biographies of living people must have reliable sources. There's no source saying that this is the first "contract murder" solicited over the airwaves. If that assertion is true then I'm sure it will be covered in reliable, 3rd-party sources. We don't add every outrageous quip that radio talk show hosts make. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:30, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

If the man's own words from a recording of the show on the exact date isn't a "Reliable Source" then none of Wikiepedia is a reliable source, because you cannot get a more reliable source than the "horses' mouth." You are showing a tremendous bias against Mark Dice and the other 11-33% (Depending on the poll) of American's that he called for capital murder of. ·:· Bonked ·:· 22:24, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

The reliable source is Reagans own show its all over the web. I wonder if Will beback can cite any other talk show hosts who call for political murders?

As in Naomi Wolfes book "The end of America" political death threats from the media is the last of 10 steps towards a fascist state. Read her book Will and get educated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Motherfunky (talk • contribs) 22:41, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Reagan probably spends ten hours a week on the radio (I don't know how long his show runs). Obviously we can't report on everything he says. We rely on 3rd-party sources to tell us what's important and what isn't. If this incident gets picked up by reliable news services then that tells us it's important. It's not our job to make it important. We're only here to reflect what reliable sources say. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:42, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, it really is unbelievable. 'We don't add ewvery outrageous quip that radio talk show hosts make'.

I don't think Will Beback even knows what he's saying here. Every outrageous quip? The man is putting a contract on a man. He calls for his murder THRICE. He calls him by name. He says he will pay for the bullet. He says 'Let it rip, don't be gentle on him'. And all this in a day and age where everybody can google a person's address.

Yeah, that really compares to a racial quip from Imus. Just another 'outrageous quip'. And it's really 'not important'. Until the man DIES.

Unbelievable. Sickening and unbelievable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.30.88.83 (talk) 22:44, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Relax, and lay off the personal attacks guys. I'm with Will on this one. What we are asking for is a reliable source that has covered this. Wikipedia works off citing reliable sources. If no reliable sources cover something, then we cannot include mention of it. If the adopted son of Ronald Reagan has actually called for the murder of a political activist, then it will be covered by reliable sources, and we can include it. There's no deadline, so it doesn't matter if we have to wait a couple of days. I personally don't like either of the guys, from what I've read and heard, but we must follow Wikipedia guidelines, especially on biographies of living people such as this. And besides, that YouTube video, I imagine, has been uploaded without the radio station's permission, which makes it a copyright violation, and Wikipedia cannot link to copyright violations, per WP:EL. Dreaded Walrus ^{t c} 22:48, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

There's no deadline? Yeah, it's not your life on the line. Real easy to say that.

Oh, and that it has been posted without the radio station's permission is more important than the fact that the radio show host is calling for murder?

I'm done with this site. Remind me when it's being run by sane admins again. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.30.88.83 (talk • contribs)

Have a good one! Tan | 39 22:52, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

In what way will including this information in the article right this moment determine whether Dice lives or dies? Dice says he has filed a report with the FBI, in which case I doubt they need the help of Wikipedia to keep Dice alive. As Will Beback mentions above, it appears that Dice will be on Reagan's show tomorrow to discuss this. And I didn't say that the fact that the video has been posted without permission is more important than the radio show host calling for murder. I said that until it is covered by a reliable source (coverage by third-party sources determine what is important enough for inclusion), we cannot include it. I also said that we don't link to copyright violations. You're using straw-man arguments. Just relax. P.S. I'm not an admin. Dreaded Walrus ^{t c} 23:01, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Wiki is a sham lol. Very good for reading about sports teams and celebs etc. but when it comes down to anything political about insane neocon supporters openly asking for a guy to be shot it gets pulled. What a complete joke Wiki is. My guess is that most of the sad bastards moderating Wikipedia for free haven't got a clue how stupid they are for doing this, and how what they are doing is wrong because they are suppressing facts. The guy (Reagan) openly said it to millions of listeners on his radio show, what more proof do you stupid Muppet's need lol. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.46.75.87 (talk) 02:17, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Guys, the deck is stacked against you. "reliable sources" is what keeps the Global Warming page on Wikipedia and many others from getting updated with 'reliable' information- even as more scientists are saying 'heck no' to the so-called 'concensus' as well. It's the sites that only cover stories that are favorable to the 'establishment' which get published. So, naturally 'they' are the 'reliable source' you must get into. If Michael Reagan was indicted on conspiracy to commit murder and resigned for "family reasons", even though he was in legal hotwater, but that wasn't published in 'reliable sources', then you'd play heck trying to get it on wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.252.221.191 (talk) 06:32, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Michael Reagan To Apologize For Death Threat Comments Tomorrow http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/june2008/150608_a_apologize.htm Femacamper (talk) 06:52, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

It's been covered on the Daily Kos: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/6/15/12649/4669/510/530382

Not exactly MSNBC or CNN, but still a third-party source. 71.31.170.161 (talk) 07:40, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Now we're getting somewhere. Daily Kos is by far the most notable place to cover it so far. Hopefully this will lead to other places picking up on the story from here. Daily Kos, unfortunately, is a blog, which are unverifiable in general. The exception is if the author of the blog entry is considered an expert on the topic, and his work has previously been published in reliable, third-party sources. I did a bit of research, and the real name of the author of that article is "Darrell Lucus". Does anyone know if Lucus has had any work published in a reliable source (such as a newspaper, for example)?

And to User:71.252.221.191, that's conspiratorial nonsense. What is a reliable source is covered in the linked page. There are thousands of such publications around the world. Not all of them are going to be "favourable to the establishment". BBC News, for example, covers very different stories to what Fox News might, and those, too, are different to Dagens Nyheter, and so on. Dreaded Walrus ^{t c} 11:20, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

No, I don't think we are getting anywhere. This is a BLP issue. The exceptions about blog usage is for non-BLP pages. From WP:SPS:

Self-published sources should never be used as third-party sources about living persons, even if the author is a well-known professional researcher or writer.

I do understand some of the new folks who don't yet understand how Wikipedia works. You should direct your frustrations and concerns at the mainstream media and request they investigate this matter. Wikipedia, by design, reflects reliable sources and is not the place for initiating notability. You may dislike that design but there are a multitude of other outlets that allow you to include information that is not from reliable sources. If you want Wikipedia to change, then go to the talk pages of WP:RS and argue for a change. ∴ Therefore | talk 17:21, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

HOW IS PRIMARY STRAIGHT FROM THE HORSES MOUTH SOURCES UNRELIABLE???? Primary sources seem of greater value than a paid journalist report. Person makes threat, threat is published, recording is sourced. You can't get any closer to a primary source than that. Once something is said over the airwaves (the same airwaves the news uses) how is that not already a third party source? AND besides that, there IS a third party who reported on it, OTHER TALK SHOW HOSTS. You can't make something unhappen just because it wasn't in the news. Anyway, can someone explain what, besides news reports, would be considered a valid source? Especially considering that Reagan is a public person and everything a public person says is potentially notable. Would a copy of the FBI complaints and FCC complaints against him qualify? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.254.246.101 (talk) 18:29, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

You are correct that primary sources are of great value to a paid journalist's report. However, Wikipedia is not made of journalists but instead of encyclopedists who create no original work. Wikipedia does not allow primary sources for just that reason. It is not up to a Wikpedia editor to determine if a primary source is notable but instead it relies on third party sources to make that determination. Please read up on WP:PSTS where there is an explanation on the difference between primary and tertiary sources which I believe may be the source of confusion here.

We are not trying to make something "unhappen" -- instead, an encyclopedia depends on other reliable sources to determine which happenings are notable. Subsequently, FBI reports, etc. would violate original research is not allowed. Thoughts? ∴ Therefore | talk 18:37, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

This is ridiculous. Does anyone have any reason to believe that the Raw Story article on the death threat against Mark Dice is inaccurate? Is there any reason to believe that the son of Ronald Reagan calling for someone to be shot dead live on air for thousands of Americans to hear is not a notable event? The idea that this is not a notable event is ridiculous excuse, for heavens sakes, we have information here on hundreds of different Pokemon, and all the Kardashian sisters have their own Wikipedia article. It should be mentioned here, it's a confirmed undisputed fact, and whoever keeps deleting this obviously edits Wikipedia with a political agenda. Frankly, I'm sick of this and I'm just going to keep adding this until it remains here.Counteraction (talk) 20:30, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

The issue isn't whether you or I believe the Raw Story is accurate or not. It may or may not be. The issue is that Raw Story doesn't fit the requirement of a reliable source which means published, mainstream and known for fact checking. Raw Story doesn't fit any of these requirements. You may want to go to the talk page for WP:RS and suggest they change these requirements.

Apparently, no reliable source has determined that this is a notable event and that is what is required. Your complaint is with the MSM. Direct your frustrations towards them, have a MSM RS make an issue out of this, then it can be added. If you believe that Wikipedia's policy is incorrect, then this isn't the page for that discussion. Instead, go to the talk pages of WP:V and WP:RS. If you continue to add, you will be (very soon) blocked from editing as the consensus here is that it should not be added. Wikipedia makes even greater demands on biographies of living people. Finally, it would be helpful to keep your comments civil, to assume goof faith and to not make any personal attacks. Thoughts? ∴ Therefore | talk 21:13, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

The Mark Dice information is valid. Michael Reagan did give a death threat and has apoligized for it to Dice. Why can't this be reported on Wikipedia in an article about Michael Reagan? I have seen SEVERAL valid link given about what happened. Wikideia is about fact, not feelings. Your personal objection to Mark Dice is irelevant because a factual act was commited and you're commiting censorship. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.11.231.66 (talk) 20:43, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

The question isn't whether your links are valid but if they are reliable sources. In Wikipedia, that means mainstream publications known for fact checking. Your references do not satisfy that criteria. I understand your frustration -- you are used to the more open any-thing-goes world of blogs, public forums or newsgroups. Wikipedia is none of those things but is instead an encyclopedia. If you are defining censorship as the responsibility of editors to take out poorly referenced materials on living people, then, yes, that is part of the mission of Wikipedia. ∴ Therefore | talk 21:18, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Mike Reagan Talk Show Host Calls for Murder http://youtube.com/watch?v=OsEK3kyKfeA

It's wrong to call for people's murder. If Mark Dice and other 9/11 activists are criminal suspects then they should be brought before a court of law.

There's nothing wrong with adding a small section to M. Reagan's article about this. Look at how much talk there is in the discussion section here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.99.12.77 (talk) 00:27, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

"He said he was sorry for his comments, that he apologized, and that he shouldn't have said it and confirmed that he will have Mark Dice on his show Monday. He explained that when he made the comments, he had recently given a speech and just got off the USS Ronald Reagan, he sees the troops and supports their work, and was upset, but that he acted wrong in making his comments. I said that many people are saying there should be criminal charges filed against him for his remarks, and asked him what he thought of that,. He said no comment on that but reiterated that he and Mark had a nice conversation and will discuss it on the show."

That's from: http://www.opednews.com/maxwrite/diarypage.php?did=7753 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.99.12.77 (talk) 00:35, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Disgraceful

This censorship is bringing wikipedia into disrepute, the ultimate sin. As to reliable sources the show was recorded, it is not in doubt as to what happened and when. How can such behaviour be justified ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Evadinggrid (talk • contribs)

If you see the section above, noone is denying that it happened. As for justification, again see the section above. It's not "censorship" to not include material about something, otherwise you could include hundreds of thousands of words in the article, and claim censorship if any of it is removed. We have said that if reliable sources cover it, we will include it. The argument, I feel, is pretty well summed up here. It is not the purpose of an encyclopedia to determine what is and isn't important. That role is up to how much coverage something gets from third-party, published sources. Dreaded Walrus ^{t c} 15:47, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Sophist —Preceding unsigned comment added by Evadinggrid (talk • contribs) 16:06, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, it's hard to convince you when you haven't taken the time to learn how Wikipedia works. Tan | 39 16:11, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Making death threats on the air is not irrelevant triva, and of course is illegal under US Law. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Evadinggrid (talk • contribs) 17:34, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Typical for the hive-like mentality exhibited by these Wikipedians: you don't understand how the 'system' works, therefore you don't have a right to reply.

They even admit they don't have to do research.

It's really simple: you're covering for Michael Reagan. You don't even mention on this page that he called for the assassination of Howard Dean. Or his 'solution' for 'peace' in the Middle East (go look it up. Go see if it's something you want to be associated with) Numerous mainstream news articles have been dedicated to those topics alone. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.30.88.83 (talk) 17:40, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not the Police Department. We are not the FBI. We are not a news source. Tan | 39 17:42, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Also, when you go to Will Beback's discussion page, you'll see this quote:

"Wow, talk about an embarrassing moment--I had no idea Dice was using Wikipedia to promote himself. Does he have any socks? If I'd known he'd had a history here, I'd have been a bit more wary about putting that in Michael Reagan."

So it's pretty simple. The REAL reason that Will Beback censored the section is exactly for the reason stated above, even though it is a FACT that Mike Reagan ordered for the death of Mark Dice.

Oh, and as for real 'newsstories', here's another one from Rawstory.

http://digg.com/politics/Radio_talk_host_calls_for_murder_of_9_11_Truth_activist?OTC-widget

The up-is-down-down-is-up and hive-like mentality of these Wikipedians is really something else.84.30.88.83 (talk) 17:44, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Raw Story is not a reliable source as defined at WP:RS. Be patient, this may in time be reported in the mainstream press. That is the necessary requirement. If you disagree with that policy, the proper venue is the talk page of WP:RS. Please don't berate editors for following the policies. ∴ Therefore | talk 17:54, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Micheal Reagan's own words about paying the bullets to excute Mark Dice without due process are criminal and on the record. These should be posted on this site as they are a true record of the words uttered by Reagan and should stand for the record. This censorship is unconscionable in a modern world. This article shou;ld contain fact, and not opinion. It is a fact that Reagan has uttered words to incite murder. Kiwifilm (talk) 18:56, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

No one is questioning whether Reagan said this. He did. However, editors may not determine if something is notable for inclusion. Instead, that is left to reliable sources to determine notability. If you disagree with that policy, I recommend directing your thoughts to the talk pages of WP:V and WP:RS. You could direct some of your thoughts about the Reagan issue at the comments page of the Raw Story article also. Thoughts? ∴ Therefore | talk 18:54, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Please don't edit others' comments. ∴ Therefore | talk 18:58, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

This man advocated the murder of an american citizen on air and said he would pay for it. He put a hit on Mark Dice and no matter how you try to censor wikipedia (which is losing my respect because of this very fact) the truth is out and it will be spread. He should be fired, sued and arrested in that order. Mark Dice is a patriot, not this 'man'—Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.43.132.51 (talk • contribs)

"Truth" (which is definable by anyone) is not the basis for inclusion in Wikipedia, but verification is. It's a mantra. Talk pages are not for the discussion of the subject but instead for suggestions on how to improve the article. There are thousands of other outlets for your ideas on this matter which may in turn gain your respect. ∴ Therefore | talk 19:38, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

KFI

SOURCE: Clearchannel's KFI Los Angeles Breaks Reagan Death Threat Story

Wiki editor, please consider that this is the 2nd most "listened to" talk-radio station in the country and Bill Handel covered the death threat issue in his news program (albeit in a biased way)"Handel on the News" from 8:46 am yesterday (6/16). I just listened to the podcast here: [Can be downloaded or streamed at http://www.kfi640.com/pages/podcasting/] Bill Handel (leftmost column) -> Handel on the News (6/16) Jump to time: 38:54. [ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.96.227.72 (talk) 05:19, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Bill Handel is not a reliable source. From WP:RS:

Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy.

The show referred to this incident in a mocking manner. It has the reputation for neither fact-checking nor accuracy. Sorry, I realize how frustrating this can be when first faced with the criteria for inclusion in Wikipedia. ∴ Therefore | talk 05:35, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Reliable Sources

Well you could go to RadioAmerica's own podcast, but they deleted Hour 2 for Jun 10th... Or you could go to Mark Dice's Youtube page, but his account was suspended... Wikipedia isn't a reliable source of information, because the truth is buried just like Youtube, Digg, and RadioAmerica —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.126.175.197 (talk) 17:33, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

For Wikipedia to be a "reliable source" it, by definition and design, must rely on other reliable sources. A reliable source in Wikipedia means a mainstream publication with a reputation for fact checking. RawStory, for one, does not fit that definition. It is not up to editors to determine if a quotation from a primary source (the use of which is discouraged) is notable. Instead, a third party reliable source must determine if it is notable. Finally, the Wikipedia mantra: The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. Please find a reliable source that has determined that this is notable, then it is a candidate for inclusion. Thoughts? ∴ Therefore | talk 17:49, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

i cant even find a third party source that deems true your statement that wikipedia is a reliable source. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.254.246.101 (talk) 18:47, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

(after edit conflict with User:Therefore, above) Hello. If you read the section above, you will see that we are looking for reliable, third-party sources to cover this so that we can determine importance. Wikipedia itself does not make judgements about whether something is important enough to include, otherwise it would be open to bias, as, for example, hundreds of fans of Reagan could include statements from every one of his shows, and his opinions on absolutely everything from War in the Middle East to what his favourite brand of coffee is. Of course, Michael Reagan makes lots of radio shows, and sure enough, he's said some stuff that I disagree with (such as his recent comment regarding grenades and baby orifices), but I can't just decide that this is important enough to go in.

What we need is third-party sources to deem this important enough to cover, then we can include it. It's not a case of "the truth being buried". We're an encyclopedia. Something being true doesn't automatically make it worthy of inclusion. It is true that I live in England, but that doesn't mean I should be mentioned in the article on England, or even the article on my own town. I'm nowhere near important enough for inclusion. We could include information on how many hairs Reagan has on his back, or what time on a night he tends to go to bed, or who his favourite character on Cheers is, but if it's not important enough for reliable, third-party sources with an editorial process to cover, then it's not important enough to go in what is, essentially, a free encyclopedia, rather than a free repository of absolutely everything that is true. Dreaded Walrus ^{t c} 17:51, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

but c'mon NOBODY is actually doing that (including statements from every show). get real. if they did, THEN human moderators could be justified cleaning up the mess. but if this guy ends up DEAD then i bet it'll be on wiki (err, scratch that, we would still need a third party stating cause and effect) GTFO —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.254.246.101 (talk) 18:40, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, if he ends up dead (no need to use all caps -- avoids the impression of someone ranting), then I think it is safe that there will be mainstream reports on the matter and hence a candidate for inclusion in this article. I think you are beginning to understand the policies here. ∴ Therefore | talk 18:46, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it will be included. Whether a person is dead or alive is automatically an important part of any biography, just as much as their date of birth is, or their full name. If he (or anybody at all that is notable enough for inclusion) dies, and a reliable source confirms it, it will be included in their article, of course. And with regards to my examples, I know nobody is actually doing that, and that was my point. Your parting advice, I should mention, is as welcome as any advice stated so eloquently. Dreaded Walrus ^{t c} 18:53, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Look

There's only so much time we can devote to trying to make anonymous editors realize how Wikipedia works. If you don't take the time to read the comments and learn the policies, and keep making the same argument over and over - that Wikipedia has some sort of onus to report this out of empathy, then I figure we'll just leave it at that. The above discussion is beating a dead horse, it appears. Tan | 39 18:49, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't exactly agree. We don't bite the newbies. I personally have no problem with carefully outlining Wikipedia's policies to newcomers who come here in good faith in the hope they will become productive editors. The more we treat them civilly (as they deserve) and not dismissively (as one could argue some of your above comments were), then there is a chance of keeping the article discussion calm. ∴ Therefore | talk 18:53, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

I didn't bite the newbies, Therefore, I was saying that "if you can't read two pages of argument, then there's nothing we can do for you". I didn't attack or call anyone names. WP:BITE doesn't say that we need to waste time explaining policy four, five, six times. Your time would be better spent elsewhere. If you have the patience to continue with this, by all means - you could have ignored my statement. Tan | 39 18:56, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

My view is that, yeah, if people come here, and are polite about their asking, or are genuinely wondering why this information can't be included (yet, I hope), then I too don't mind politely explaining to them. We can't expect an anon to know all the policies, or for them to read through big blocks of text like those above. Of course, if people are obnoxious about it, or smart-arse (here, for example), then I don't have much time for them, no. I don't have much of a problem with Tanthalas39's comments above, seeing as they were in response to people who were certainly not acting in good-faith or being civil. Dreaded Walrus ^{t c} 19:03, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

I could have ignored it, I guess -- I'm not too sure why, though. I felt that your responses above were not attempts to explain policy but showed impatience and were dismissive. We must treat newcomers with kindness and patience.

Well, it's hard to convince you when you haven't taken the time to learn how Wikipedia works.

Wikipedia is not the Police Department. We are not the FBI. We are not a news source.

Are not exactly welcoming to new editors. Since this is a discussion page, it was important to chime in. ∴ Therefore | talk 19:09, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Like DW said above, Therefore, these editors were not good faith editors. I know you like to keep quoting (and linking) WP:BITE there, but that's a behavioral guideline, not a policy that needs to be followed to the letter in every single situation. These IP editors were sarcastic, had one agenda, and were clearly not listening to mine, yours, or anyone else's reasoning. WP:BITE and WP:AGF does not mean that we have to mindlessly disregard obvious problems. WP:BITE and WP:AGF do not mean that we have to waste time arguing with people who are clearly not here to understand Wikipedia's policies. If you wish to keep spending time on this, that's up to you and I'm certainly not going to argue it - my initial statement in this section wasn't directed at you. You can carry on how you wish. Tan | 39 19:14, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

I do like quoting and linking WP:BITE, you are correct. We don't dismiss guidelines simply because they aren't policy. And, yes, I know we aren't a bureaucracy -- even policy isn't followed to the letter in every situation. I assumed good faith of the above editors but possibly because that too is a guideline that doesn't need to be necessarily followed. WP:BITE isn't about attacking or calling people names. Instead it implies treating new editors gently even when you dislike their edits or their attitudes. Being dismissive is counterproductive. ∴ Therefore | talk 19:25, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

As I said, carry on. I think it's against common sense and counter-productive to the advancement of the project to continue arguing here. Tan | 39 19:27, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

"Folks give it up"

You are not going to get anything past the puppet admins. If some mainstream media outlet (controlled by governments and gloablists) does not pick up a CURRENT story the admins won't let it through. Although CNN, Fox, etc. were not around for the middle ages I guess it is more believable that knights on horses invaded Persia than Reagan made death threats even though plenty of RELIABLE sources have picked it up and broadcast it over the air and internet. The Truth is not popular when it interferes with globalist agendas and they have their lackeys in place to cover their butts for them so they can institute mind control unhindered. The only thing Free about Wikipedia is that you have the freedom to know you ARE NOT getting the real truth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Unowen7 (talk • contribs) 21:47, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Reliable sources are not only MSM but peer reviewed scholarly and scientific works. If these reliable sources state that knights on horses invaded Persia, then it would be a candidate for inclusion.

No reliable sources have picked it up. Not one. That is the source of the confusion: the definition of RS as used at Wikipedia is MSM known for fact checking. "The Truth" (when capitalized, it must mean heavy business) is not relevant to Wikipedia. The criteria for inclusion is verification and not truth. Please read WP:V for details so you may understand better how things work here. For you, freedom means unimpeded inclusions of absolutely anything with no filter. That freedom does not exist (nor should it) here. You have thousands of other venues to speak about your frustrations with lackeys and globalists and "The Truth". This one isn't one of them. I'm going to return to controlling my mind unhindered. ∴ Therefore | talk 21:58, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

STOP

This whole Troll Festival is based on the arguement that relates to Secondary Evidence Sources, this is totaly irrelevant when you have a indesputable Primary Evidence Source... That is the accepted academic standard... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Evadinggrid (talk • contribs) 14:26, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Which would be correct if Wikipedia was an academic institution. It isn't. It is an encyclopedia that users secondary and tertiary sources. Please read WP:PSTS. ∴ Therefore | talk 16:14, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

So in effect, Wiki is an encyclopedia of hearsay. Primary sources don't matter. Only tertiary ones, right? No matter how you slice it, it's a flawed policy that is used to suppress the truth, and protect criminals.--70.113.119.168 (talk) 22:58, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

I recommend that you cut and paste your argument to Wikipedia talk:No original research and work diligently to change policy. ∴ Therefore | talk 23:03, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Who said anything about original research ! This typical of the Wikipedia Trolls. Evadinggrid (talk) 14:53, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

WP:NOR states that reliable, third-party sources are required. 70.113.119.168 complained about third-party sources being needed. Does that answer your question? Dreaded Walrus ^{t c} 15:04, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Additional sources

More media coverage of the Mark Dice death threats. Could we please see a citation? [2] [3] [4]

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.113.119.168 (talk • contribs) 15:50, June 20, 2008

All three of these are blogs. The use of blogs is proscribed for biographies of living people. ∴ Therefore | talk 23:01, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Raw story isn't a blog but isn't a mainstream published source which Wikipedia requires. ∴ Therefore | talk 23:07, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

The Wikipedia article on The Raw Story calls it a "weblog". ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:19, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

I stand corrected. Thanks! ∴ Therefore | talk 23:40, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

So if Michael Reagan's death threats are not covered by mainstream sources than why are they included in Mark Dice's article? That is highly hypocritical.65.188.219.75 (talk) 18:22, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing that out. It appears it was added a short while back without being noticed, and has since been removed from the Mark Dice article. Dreaded Walrus ^{t c} 01:24, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Hezbollah

Quasipalm added this:

Reagan caused controversy by advocating the killing of Palestinian babies whose parents named them Hezbollah. "You know what I'd get them for a first birthday? I'd put a grenade up their butts and light it. Happy birthday baby, bye bye." After being challenged by a listener, Reagan repeatedly advocated the killing of newborns. [5]

with the edit summary:

sourced, notable, and not a copyright violation

However, the only source given is a youtube clip of Reagan's show posted by the youtube user "hearthetruthamerica". I invite Quasipalm to explain how hearthetruthamerica is a reliable source. Which part of WP:RS does he feel applies here or why this should be an exception? How is the clip not a copyright violation? Notability isn't determined by the fiat of an editor but instead by the use of reliable sources. Thoughts? ∴ Therefore | talk 14:52, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

hearthetruthamerica isn't the source, Michael Reagan is the source. Lastly Wikipedia:Avoid copyright paranoia. -Quasipalm (talk) 00:35, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Avoid copyright paranoia has no standing here; it's a discussion page. The materials on youtube are owned by the show owners and this is a clear copyvio. I'd be happy to request a review at WP:CP if you like.

But that problem aside, you provide absolutely no source for the notability of this issue. If you take the time to read above about the similar concern with Dice, then I'd appreciate if you would respond here why WP:NOR and in particular WP:PSTS doesn't apply here. You need a source that indicates that this is a notable issue. What is your source for this notability? ∴ Therefore | talk 00:50, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

What is a reliable source?

Please explain what is Wiki's definition of reliable source? I would assume if Faux news tells tomorrow there are WMDs in Iran, that makes reliable news, huh. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.196.199.18 (talk • contribs) 00:37, June 22, 2008

Your answer can be found here. In this context, in a nutshell, a reliable source is a MSM outlet known for fact checking. If Fox News reported that there are WMDs in Iran, then presumably that would be a candidate for inclusion in the appropriate page. But such a significant news story from the Fox news division would be covered by many other news outlets, either confirming or denying, which would also be a part of the page. Could you please clarify what point you are trying to make? That because MSM can be inaccurate, therefore Wiki's definition of reliable source should be tossed and any and all information from any source, without any filter, should be includable? Then Wikipedia would be just another blog's comments space. Thoughts? ∴ Therefore | talk 07:58, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, Fox is not a MSM outlet known for fact checking. Did they check if there were WMDs in Iraq when Bush was singing his song for war in Iraq? Your definition of fact checking is soo ridiculous simply because most if not all media outlets dont do any fact checking of any kind especially with regards to foreign affairs. Alll they do is repeat what the government wants people to know. That is not fact, that is opinion. However, in this case, people know what the fact is. People know this Michael Reagan made a death threat to Mark Dice. Its 100 percent fact. Then why not put it? Or are you disagreeing that it is not a fact. You yourself admitted that the point of a MSM outlet is for fact checking. But here, the fact is in front of you. Are you saying it did not happen? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.196.199.18 (talk) 17:13, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Please read DW's answer below. ∴ Therefore | talk 17:17, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

And for what it's worth, I agree with you that Fox News would not necessarily be considered a reliable source on the subject of WMDs in Iran. If they were saying there was WMDs and noone else was, I don't think it should be included. But that's largely a discussion for another time, of course. :) Dreaded Walrus ^{t c} 17:21, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

You can't get any more reliable of a source than hearing words coming out of someone's own mouth. YouTube has been used as a source on Wiki before without any problems. It would seem to me that Therefore has a bias for Michael Reagan and he/she should no longer be allowed to contribute to this page. In Therefore's world, if something hasn't been written about, it didn't happen. Even if there is video to prove that it did. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.90.233.194 (talk) 12:09, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Hi. Stop using straw man arguments. At no point above has Therefore (nor any other Wikipedia user) claimed that this didn't happen. We realise that a video of him saying it is great proof that it happened. We are not looking for proof he said this. We already know he did. We are looking for something showing the importance of the event. For example, if something happens and gets covered by hundreds of news sources around the world, then it's obviously a pretty important event and should be included. However, if something happens and doesn't get covered by any reliable sources, then we must unfortunately concede that it can't be that important in the long run.

I personally would love to see this included (along with the baby/grenade reference), as I personally think it is important. However, what I personally think isn't relevant here, as we go off Wikipedia's policies. If you disagree with Wikipedia's policies, this is not the place to discuss them. Feel free to go to the relevant policy's talk page and discuss there to try and change policy. If you don't know where the discussion page for a policy is, feel free to tell me which policy you disagree with, and I will link you to the discussion page for it. Thanks, Dreaded Walrus ^{t c} 16:06, 22 June 2008 (UTC)