Talk:Beijing

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For the last time, what is the population of what is considered the city of Beijing?

A better title for this section would be, "For the only time since 2005, what is the population of what is considered the city of Beijing?" Anyway, nobody has really discussed this issue, and I think it is important, for example, in a list of the world's largest cities. The list of cities by population uses the figure of "core districts + inner suburbs" for municipalities like Shanghai, Beijing, Tianjin, etc. and I would recommend using those population figures in the articles on those cities, in addition to the municipality figure. Someone the Person (talk) 22:59, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Hey I've been wondering the same thing and on this site http://world-gazetteer.com/wg.php?x=&men=gcis&lng=en&des=wg&srt=npan&col=abcdefghinoq&msz=1500&pt=c&va=&srt=pnan It says 7 712 104 and is under the other name it goes by Peking and is number 21. Cedarpointohio2 (talk) 04:08, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Tourist Attractions List

There is some disagreement about the tourism section which lists every tourist attraction in the city. I think having a list of all the tourist attractions is unnecessary and unencyclopedic because there is already a page Tourist attractions of Beijing and having a link to that page is enough. There is no need to add that list into the main beijing page, since it goes against summary style.

No featured articles have lists, especially of tourist attractions in the city. See any of these

Ahmedabad, Ann Arbor, Michigan · Bangalore · Boston, Massachusetts ·Canberra Cape Town Chennai Cleveland, Ohio ·Darjeeling Delhi · Detroit, Michigan · Dhaka · Dorset · Erie, Pennsylvania · Exmoor · Gangtok Hong Kong · Houston, Texas ·Jerusalem · Kalimpong Kochi, India · Kolkata · Ladakh · Lake Burley Griffin · Larrys Creek · Lethbridge Louisville, Kentucky Manchester · Mauna Loa · Metacomet Ridge · Minneapolis, Minnesota · Minnesota · Mendip Hills · Monte Ne · Mount Pinatubo · Mount Rushmore · Mount St. Helens · Mount Tambora · Mumbai · Mysore · Nathu La New York City · Oklahoma · Oldham ·Paulins Kill · Peru · Peterborough · Plunketts Creek (Loyalsock Creek) · Prairie Avenue · Presque Isle State Park · Providence, Rhode Island · Quneitra · Redwood National and State Parks · Riverina · San Francisco, California · Sarajevo · Seattle, Washington · Shahbag · Shapinsay · Shaw and Crompton · Sheerness · Sheffield · Shoshone National Forest · Sikkim · Somerset · South Africa · South Side (Chicago) · St Kilda, Scotland · Stretford · Suburbs of Johannesburg · Surtsey · Technopark, Kerala · Tulsa, Oklahoma · Turkey · Vancouver · Waterfall Gully, South Australia · Westgate-on-Sea · West Bengal · Weymouth · White Deer Hole Creek · Whitstable · Wormshill · Yellowstone National Park · Yarralumla, Australian Capital Territory · Yosemite National Park · Youngstown, Ohio · Zambezi · Nikkul (talk) 21:25, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Intro

It says this in the Intro.

Beijing is one of the Four Great Ancient Capitals of China. It will host the 2008 Summer Olympics.

Those two don't seem to have anything to do with each other, yet they have their own paragraph together. could somebody reword it or put it somewhere else? Thanks!Gramy! 15:20, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Seeing as no one responded to this, I'm taking that part of the intro out. If anyone has any objections, please tell me here.--Gramy! 20:03, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm putting it back in, given it's a sourced statement. This time in the end of the 2nd paragraph --Andrewlp1991 (talk) 22:13, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Not trying to be offensive, but the way you put it back makes it look like the olympics are going to be hosted in Beijing because it is one of the four great ancient capitals of china. If someone has the time, could they please make it so that the information is mentioned but in a different fashion? --Gramy (talk) 19:55, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

vandalism?

Since October, Subway tickets cost only 2 Yuan. No matter where you get on and where you get down. There is no discount for smartcard users

Whats the last sentence about? A joke? Tourskin (talk) 17:36, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

maybe this is referring to those electronic tickets that can be used on buses? Yaan (talk) 14:10, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Zhongnanhai / "China White House"

The location of the headquarters offices of the Communist Party is to the West of the Southwest corner of the forbidden city. Here is that info from Google.com :

Zhongnanhai The Zhongnanhai is a complex of buildings in Beijing, China adjacent to the Forbidden City which serves as the central headquarters for the Communist Party of China and the government of the People's Republic of China. The term Zhongnanhai is synonymous with the leadership and government administration of the nation, and is often used as a metonym for the Chinese leadership at large (in the same sense that the term White House frequently refers to the President of the United States and his associates). Chinese Presidents, including Hu Jintao, and other top PRC leadership figures carry out many of their day-to-day administrative activities inside the compound, such as meetings with foreign dignitaries. However, the complex is shrouded in some mystery as it is closed to the general public, with photography additionally being strictly curtailed at several prominent locations such as the main gate. However, China Central Television frequently shows footage of meetings inside the compound, but limits its coverage largely to views of the interior of buildings.

a Neo Jay removed this Zhongnanhai section from themain article apparently not realizing its significance and needed inclusion...

/s/ Son of Heaven, Willy Sr —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.195.77.218 (talk) 16:02, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Good Article before the Olympics?

Anyone fancy a collaboration on taking a shot at bringing this article up to at least GA status in time for the start of the Olympics? The content seems OK, it just needs referencing and a layout overhaul. --Joowwww (talk) 14:35, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I was thinking something on that line too, but the wrath of real life has given me little time to do so. I've been referencing/fact-checking though in recent times, as I just ended a Wikibreak today. --Andrewlp1991 (talk) 05:34, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Where is my middle school?

The High School affiliated to the Capital Normal UniversityAlexBlues (talk) 18:38, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Canberra, Australia is also a sister city of Beijing

Sep 2000, Canberra and Beijing signed sister city relationship. Can anyone who has access add Canberra as one of the sister city of Beijing please?

• Canberra, Australia(September 14, 2000)

Reference:

http://www.business.act.gov.au/servicestobusiness/businessdevelopment/canberras_international_relationships http://www.echinacities.com/cityguide/beijing/Biz/

Thanks. Z afan (talk) 04:33, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Opening section and removal of contents

I have added a paragraph to the opening section using citation and quotes from the Encyclopædia Britannica and The New Encyclopædia Britannica, 15th edition, Macropædia article of "Beijing". I feel the lead gave a perfect illustration and introduction to the role of Beijing in Chinese culture and tradition. The entire paragraph was referenced using MLA and online citaiton format, and not to mention the information came from the most reputable encyclopedia in the world. There is absolutely no reason at all for User:Nikkul to suddenly remove it, not alone by deleting it and without consulting other editors first.--TheLeopard (talk) 18:17, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Even if you don't supposedly agree with the "information", gave your input before removing others' contributions. Not to mention User:Nikkul removed the section "Places of interest" and other sections without given any explanation in the edit summary.--TheLeopard (talk) 18:25, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Languages in which Beijing is pronounced Peking

I have a few comments about the list of languages that call Beijing Peking.

First, add Japanese to the list of languages which preserve the Peking pronunciation.

Second, this list could likely grow very large without adding much to the content of the article. Perhaps it would be better to say simply, "Many languages preserve the older "Peking" pronunciation."

Third, if kept in the article, this list should be alphabetized.

hi —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.171.167.26 (talk) 06:22, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Done, I have removed the list altogether. --Joowwww (talk) 19:21, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

"One of the world's great cities"

The second paragraph of the lead states "One of the world's great cities, Beijing..." Is this worth saying? What does that even mean? I guess it just means classically "great", a vague combination of "historic", "important", "large", "splendid", etc. (i.e. I am assuming that the original context wasn't more specific, as to mean "one of the largest by population" or other such measure that was simply worded ambiguously). The citation given is Encyclopaedia Britannica, a publication in which it may be appropriate to make value judgments like that, but it seems inappropriate (and, generally, just pointless: what does that add to the article?) for Wikipedia.

At the very least, it requires attribution. That statement is not a fact but an outside opinion, so it should at least read "Called one of the world's great cities by Encyclopaedia Britannica, Beijing..." I don't want to take unilateral action in changing it because I was not party to its insertion and whatever discussions may have gone along with it, but I'm going to comment out that part of the phrase so that it won't appear until it is appropriately remedied. Dylan (talk) 18:06, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't see it. Maybe it has been deleted. --Joowwww (talk) 19:22, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

It's there in the code, but I commented it out -- you have to click Edit to see it. Dylan (talk) 19:37, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Okay guys. The Encyclopædia Britannica's Macropædia states "Peking, the capital of the People's Republic of China, is one of the world's great cities," in the first sentence of its 14 pages print article about Peking (Beijing). I think it is notable concerning the Britannica does not make the same statement in other city articles (read the 17 volume Macropædia). I attributed the quote like you said. Any other suggestions about this paragraph (where should it be? how to phrase it?)?--TheLeopard (talk) 19:41, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

My concern was not that it lacked proper sourcing, but more one of style. What does saying that it is a "great" city add to the article? It's a bland and virtually meaningless word in this context. Lots of cities have been called "great", and it doesn't really matter that someone particularly prestigious is saying it this time: the inclusion of the sentence still doesn't convey any useful information. On the other hand, I quite liked the rest of the quotes from Britannica that you mention just below because they do give the reasons and context for the article -- explaining Beijing's outstandingly long historical importance, etc. But just saying "it's a great city" is just a throwaway. Show, don't tell: let's get to the facts. Dylan (talk) 19:51, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

As for User:Nikkul and his relentless and mostly baseless revertion of the paragraph; remember it violated no Wikipedia guidelines or conventions and not all articles has to be the same, why shouldn't the Britannica statement be there? If you have a problem with the content being at the lead, gave your input and we'll talk about other appropriate placing for this paragraph. Otherwise, blind revertion without discussing it on the talk page is uncivil and borders on being vandals.

Other editors' comments would be welcome.--TheLeopard (talk) 19:41, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

The last sentence, Without a knowlegdge of this city, the importance of Beijing makes it impossible to understand China as well, has a similar problem: that's Britannica's opinion, but you're citing it as a fact. Like calling it "great", this sentence doesn't add much meaningful to the article or to the reader's understanding. We should glean from the facts that come before this statement that understanding Beijing is vital to understanding China; that should come across, not be literally stated. But like I said, I support the retention of the other quotes from Britannica in the lead. Dylan (talk) 19:53, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Many city articles contains statements of questionable quality (one of the most dynamic... one of the most cosmopolitan, a leading center...) whilst citing much less notable and scholarly sources (online newspapers, sometimes even publication data from the city government, whereas considering Britannica holds paramount authority over other general English enyclopedias). It may not be a perfect lead, but I think it has its merit.--TheLeopard (talk) 19:58, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Just because other articles have failings is no reason to excuse this one. WP:NPOV is not a sliding rule, it is a policy, and that last statement violates it by prioritizing one particular point of view -- that Beijing is vital to understanding China. Dylan (talk) 21:33, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

One way to solve this would be if you can find a source that attributes that belief to scholars in general, then we could neutrally say that "Scholars of Chinese culture agree that the history and culture of Beijing is vital for understanding the history and culture of China", or whatever. Dylan (talk) 21:35, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

The statement by Britannica isn't vague in anyway and it is pretty clear and concise by what the encyclopedia meant ("The importance of Beijing thus makes it impossible to understand China without a knowledge of this city"). The Wikipedia:NPOV defines: "All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), representing fairly, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources." This source more than qualifies. The statement was paraphrased from the Encyclopædia Britannica source. It you want, there could be more attributions.--TheLeopard (talk) 21:40, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Here's an example: Suppose I cite a New York Times album review calling The White Album "the best album in the history." I can add that to the article with the proper attribution and explanation that it is simply this one paper's opinion, but I can't change the lead to The White Album to say "The White Album by the Beatles is the best album in history." Just like that, this article on Beijing claims as a fact another's opinion. This is against WP:NPOV. Of course it is clear what Britannica means, but it's just an editorial/literary judgment on their part. Britannica's encyclopedic standards may permit that, but on Wikipedia we don't make editorial claims.

Thinking about it more literally, this sentence makes a claim on what is necessary for it to be "possible" to understand China. This is simply not a factual statement; it's an unprovable, subjective claim. The underlying point that the statement drives at is what we should be focusing on, and that is simply that Beijing is an important historical city -- which has already been established in the lead in more direct terms. Dylan (talk) 02:37, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

I understand your meaning, although the Britannica and New York Times is an ill-comparison. It would be like the if MSNBC said Beijing is a great city and I inserted that claim. Seldom would users insert reviews by individual publications and proclaims it such (The Village Voice, Pitchfork, Los Angeles Times...). The Britannica is quite different though, it would be more like the Encyclopedia of Rock claimed (although there is no such thing). But I do get your meaning.--TheLeopard (talk) 04:09, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm thinking about possibly removing the last statement (that you found problematic, Without a knowlegdge of this city, the importance of Beijing makes it impossible to understand China as well) and adding information with citation from the World Book Encyclopedia to the paragraph's end, how is this?

Few cities in the world besides Beijing have served as the political and cultural centre of an area as immense as China for so long. The Encyclopædia Britannica describes it as "One of the world's great cities," and declares "Beijing has been an integral part of China’s history over the past eight centuries, and nearly every major building of any age in Beijing has at least some national historical significance." Beijing is renowned for its opulent palaces, temples, and huge stone walls and gates. Its art treasures and universities have long made the city a centre of culture and art in China.

--TheLeopard (talk) 04:21, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Meanwhile, could you and other editors keep an eye on the article too, to make sure editors won't randomly remove a large chunk of paragraph from the article without thoroughly discussing it.--TheLeopard (talk) 04:44, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Some users need to understand that believe it or not, major English-language encyclopedias often do gave this kind of lauded statements to article of "Beijing", such as Encyclopædia Britannica, Encyclopedia Americana, Collier's Encyclopedia, World Book Encyclopedia ("Beijing is renowned for its beautiful palaces, temples, and huge stone walls and gates. Its art treasures and universities have long made the city China's cultural center... Beijing has been a center of government in China off and on for more than 2,000 years..."), while often these kind of comments are rarely to be found in other city articles of these encyclopedias. It maybe "ridiculous" to some editors, but its definitely not unique, except in Wikipedia, where I found some aspect of this article's quality to be seriously lacking and the cultural and historical aspect is constantly and ridiculously being "challenged" by some editors. For example, the Citizendium's article of Beijing [1], in which I presume that it follows a familiar tone to other prominent encyclopedias, basically described Beijing in a vastly different manner than this Wikipedia article. --TheLeopard (talk) 21:30, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Don't get me wrong, I think the idea it conveys is fine, even desirable, but it remains that this is an opinion that is being stated as a fact. It is not objectively and unarguably true that you need to know Beijing to know China; it is just an assertion of Britannica's. And this article isn't about what Britannica thinks, it's about the verifiable, neutral, agreed-upon facts about Beijing. Particularly in the lead, we should focus on a concise, organized summary of the article's facts; it is not the place to inject editorial opinion -- Wikipedia's, Britannica's, or anyone else's. Dylan (talk) 21:33, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

User:Nikkul's argument against the lead section is baseless. I viewed the criteria of the Wikipedia:Lead section, and there is nothing in it that is said against having quotes and mulitiple citations from reputed encyclopedic sources. Similarily, the Wikipedia:Summary style, also mentioned nothing about not having quotes, not to mention the quotes on this article came from the most prestigious non-profit organization in the world.--TheLeopard (talk) 19:52, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Image of the Temple of Heaven

Please put a picture of the Temple of Heaven at least somewhere, it is one of Beijing's most recognisable landmarks and is becoming a symbol of Beijing, akin to the Statue of Liberty, Big Ben and the Eiffel Tower. --Joowwww (talk) 20:17, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

I think User:Nikkul removed it. His reason was, "it was nothing to do with Beijing's name."--TheLeopard (talk) 20:32, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Pronunciation - Bay-Zhing or Bay-Jing?

There is a news story circulating regarding the correct pronunciation of Beijing. Many (including Wikipedia) indicate that it is Bay-Zhing. The AP has a story regarding the pronunciation being Bay-Jing. AP news article. Thoughts? Chasingsol (talk) 01:40, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Without going in to the atrocities that the English language has committed against other languages upon adopting certain words, there are two ways to pronounce this word. The "correct" way, i.e. the way a native of Beijing would say it (Bay-jing), and the way people who just never bother to really find out pronounce it (Bay-zhing). - MGoho —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mgoho (talk • contribs) 03:42, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

It's pronounced Bay-djing like at the start of "Jingle bells". More and more news journalists are pronouncing it correctly now, I think there's a memo going around. --Joowwww (talk) 10:38, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Beijing sub-articles

I think the Beijing article is getting a bit large, it's bursting with info and it's affecting its readability. I've identified both existing sub-articles and new ones that can go into greater depth of information, let's see if we can get them all filled and linked to on the main page.

• History of Beijing - It says Beijing's history can be traced back 3000 years, but I can only see about 1000 of it.
• Geography of Beijing - Needs info on climate, waterways, ecology, geology, greenery, environmental issues.
• Architecture of Beijing - Temples, hutongs, skyscrapers, architectural styles, parks, development.
• Politics of Beijing - It's the capital, there must be more to say more than this.
• List of towns and villages of Beijing - A list of places inside Beijing Municipality but not part of the city proper.
• Economy of Beijing - Financial district, major companies, entrepreneurial attraction, relationship with SH and HK, high-tech industries.
• Demographics of Beijing - Population, languages/dialects, ethnicities, expatriates, religion, education.
• Culture of Beijing - Arts, museums, fashion, cuisine, nightlife, sports.
• Transportation in Beijing - Could do with lists being turned intro prose.

I think these sub-articles are fine for now, but if anything does into even more detail then it can of course be split off further. --Joowwww (talk) 20:46, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Was it really sound 'k' in Beijing before?

Article mentions that it was "sound change in Mandarin from [kʲ] to [tɕ]". But I am hearing that people who's native language is Mandarin say that before Beijing was named Beiping and sound 'k' has never been there. So is this reference in the article wrong? Or was it really the sound 'k' in Beijing before? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yurivict (talk • contribs) 22:52, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

In some dialects of Mandarin it still is [k], or something like it. Beiping is a different name, 北平. kwami (talk) 23:48, 16 August 2008 (UTC)