Talk:Koi

Section Name Change?

Any objections to changing the title of the "Keeping" section to "Care"? I think it sounds a little more professional. -gibsepisg —Preceding comment was added at 18:01, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Human Faces?

I came across a youtube video with "human-faced" koi. It was pretty creepy. Can someone who knows about these kinds of fish look into whether this is for real, and if so, incorporate it appropriately into the article. I think others would want to learn about this too! -thanks

That fish is a jinmengyo and it's mentioned in the article. I don't think it looks human, though it does have an interesting face. Some Japanese stories talk of jinmengyo with human faces, but I think it's mostly psychological. If you are told it has a human face before you see it, you'll think it looks like a human face. - 24.23.37.62 (talk) 17:01, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

The things that look like eyes facing forward are actually nostrils. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.248.3.46 (talk) 22:02, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Origin

A few links have been added as references to the origin of the common carp and selective breeding done for carp with mutations to arrive at koi. There seems to be some dispute as to the origins, which would be expected. But any dispute regarding Origins should have references to back it up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.240.1.2 (talk) 01:21, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Subspecies

Are ornamental koi a subspecies of carpio "common carp" or are they a different species? Also, it mentions that butterfly koi are a hybrid with asian carp, and yet the asian carp article says that asian carp is a name applied to several species of carp including the common carp (which would presumably include koi)Suppafly 22:50, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

They're just a variety, not even a subspecies - the colors apparently don't breed true, without careful culling a population of koi would soon be back to the original dull colors. Butterfly koi origins need more research, my source was kind of vague on the details (of course, breeder secretiveness doesn't help :-) ). Stan 01:09, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the quick response. Suppafly

Butterfly koi are the result of crossing Japanese Koi with Indonisian. They wanted to improve the immune system due to years of inbreeding, so thought that it would make them more hardy, it worked but the butterfly fins were an unexpected result. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 193.111.25.197 (talk • contribs) 13:52, 8 Sep 2006 (UTC)

Capitalization

Is there a reason why koi is capitalized throughout the article? --Galaxiaad 04:45, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

The capitalization of the names of plants and animals has been a long running debate on Wikipedia. For a recent flurry of discussion, see Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Tree_of_Life#Capitalization. -- Solipsist 07:20, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

There is absolutely no reason to capitalize koi here - the debate on common names is for species names, but "koi" is not the name of a species, but a collective term for a variety of breeds, sort of like sheep dog (note how specific breeds are capitalized there, but not the generic term). Stan 13:31, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Well I'm not sure which way the wind is blowing on that debate, but my impression is it is often applied to common names of species. But you are right, I don't think anyone has tried to extend it to class groups like sheep dog. I suspect they would like to capitalize Common Carp here, but if you go into the Asian carp article, all the species mentioned are lower case. -- Solipsist 14:07, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

This is partly because the professional ichthyological community is having an ongoing debate on the subject, and so our source references are all inconsistent. Stan 17:39, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Category

Someone changed the Category:Fish to Category:Carp which probably makes sense, but shouldn't it still be in Category:Fish? Suppafly 15:51, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Category:Carp is itself in Category:Fish so it doesn't seem necessary to me. Do you think it's important to be in both? Fg2 20:33, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

The general rule is that articles in a category should not also be in any of its supercategories, with the exception of the article that defines the category (Alaska is in both its own category and supercategory of US states, for instance.) Stan 21:36, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Sounds good, I wasn't aware of the rule. Suppafly 16:46, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Lifespan

Someone added "If kept properly, kio can live about 30-35 years. Some have been known to live 200 years." is this a fact? Suppafly 17:03, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

The Japanese Wikipedia article ja:コイ says that in unusual cases they can live to over 70 years. Judging by the scales, the record-holder appears to be 220 years, but that is viewed with skepticism. 魚にしては長寿の部類で、平均20年以上、まれに70年を超す。鱗の年輪から推定された最長寿命記録は220年だが、これは信憑性が疑問視されている。So this does not support the statement "known to live 200 years" but it would support a statement like "estimated to have lived over 200 years," with a caveat that the estimates are not known to be reliable. Fg2 21:04, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

But wouldn't the people alive who can verify that technically be dead? But, then, the same argument can be made for turtles and parrots.--BCS —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.98.225.118 (talk) 09:38, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Dealers

Should we really be listing external links to dealers? I don't really see how this adds value. Suppafly 04:00, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Depends on the dealer. If the dealer had a gallery of 1,000 awesome images not available elsewhere, or informative articles on specialized topics, those are worth linking to (preferably directly to those pages), otherwise no. Stan 14:38, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

I removed some of the dealer urls that didn't have any information, just sales. I left some of the others that had good pictures and some care or historical information. I removed the dealer heading so future people don't think its a good place to list every dealer. Suppafly 17:51, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Brutal trim

I've slashed lightly trimmed the external links section per the guideline. - brenneman^{L} 13:33, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Varieties image

I thought the image was very good but I notice that it's copyrighted and has an external link on it. We should come up with a replacement as soon as possible. - brenneman ^{L} 09:26, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Articles

I have found some articles on koi carp and how to breed them. also a good article on ghost carp koi carp

External links

Is there any current consensus as to which of the links are appropriate (i.e., non-commercial and/or high-relevance/content)? OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 15:57, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

My view (FWIW) the current links seem ok ish though I would not be happy to see any real increase for this kind of article?? Cheers --Nigel ^(Talk) 18:53, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Nishikigoi

Why aren't Butterfly and Ghost Koi considered Nishikigoi? Hybrid heritage alone can't possibly be the reason as Doitsugoi also originated as a hybrid (and I use that term loosely). - 16:29, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Growth Speed/Identification

How fast do koi grow?

There is a fountain/pond on public property near my apartment. People let their fish go in it when they get too big— which, actually, was what I was doing there today. The pond I picked out for my goldfish has some 2-inch fish in it. a few are normal goldfish coloured, but one is the olive-brown 'original' colour, and two are reddish-orange on the bottom and blackish-red on the top. Are these just mutant goldfish, or might they be young koi? Is there a way to tell? Cantras 22:00, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Edit- my googling has told me these are almost certainly not koi... but they're still beautiful and free for the taking. :) Cantras 06:51, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Edible?

I know I asked about the gar, but are koi bred for food, too? they probably are, due to being a species of carp, but still...

Koi can be eaten and it is grown commercially for food in Japan, China, and other Asian countries. However, cooking a koi requires lengthy preparation to get rid of mud it picks up from feeding and it's far simpler to go to a restaurant that offers koi dish. Also, it's possible for the fish to carry parasites and so it should be cooked well to avoid getting sick. Usually, only dull colored ones are eaten, but this doesn't mean colorful ones are not edible.--Revth 07:53, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

A distinction should be made that the common carp is bred in mass numbers on fish farms as a food source in many countries. However, koi breeding operations typically do not raise koi for foor purposes. Just the opposite, most koi farms cull fry that they do not consider worth rearing. Additionally, many koi are subject to treatments for diseases with chemicals like formalin, furazone green, or other known carcinogens. These chemcials come with warnings that fish treated with these compounds should not be consumed by humans. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.240.1.2 (talk) 18:39, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

What is the difference...

Between a koi and a goldfish? My grandma and I were wondering about that. --Noftomo 00:37, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Aside from the size, they are two completely different species. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.126.75.181 (talk) 02:25, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

size

How big do they get? I'm surprised the article doesn't answer this very basic question... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.245.137.111 (talk) 01:56, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

I, too, was wondering that. That's the reason I came to this article in the first place. Are koi like other fish that will grow only to the size of the tank/pond? Or do they just keep growing until they overcrowd and die? Shinku Hisaki (talk) 03:13, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I think because reports vary regarding the average maximum growth, that its difficult for someone to make a verifiable statement. There have been instances where koi have been measured in at around 4 feet. That seems to be the very rare exception rather than an expected outcome though. Typical adult koi seem to range between two to three feet from my own observation. But then again, I'm sure that would be subject to dispute. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.240.1.2 (talk) 21:58, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Introduction into Japan a gift from Persia?

About two years ago I was in Singapore and there were these colorful educational fixtures in some public areas, such as the metro. One was a beautiful, lighted display on Koi. The information was flawless, a very high quality piece. In it said something that caught my attention, but haven't seen here, which was that the first Koi into Japan was a gift from the Emperor of Persia to the Emperor of Japan. I thought it strange because the (ancient) timing it presented seemed anachronistic, but it seemed reasonable. Has anyone heard anything about this? Thank you very much.JSteinbeck2 (talk) 13:23, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

I haven't heard of it, and it seems unlikely, since carp like hanging out in flooded rice fields and would have been found there naturally since before there were emperors anywhere, while the area of ancient Persia is mostly desert, not so many fishes. Also doesn't seem like the genetics would be right, because there are a number of colors and patterns, a single fish couldn't have all of them at the same time. Stan (talk) 14:27, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for replying. Iran/Persia is only partially desert now and as I understand, in ancient times, the whole of that general region was far more fertile (and less arid; for instance, Babylon and Judea are supposed to be far more wet during that period.) Also, what you write seems to suggest that carp couldn't be native to the Near East. But, all the literature, including this Wiki page, state that the carp originates in the Middle or Near East. Looking forward to more information or rebuttal. Thanks. JSteinbeck2 (talk) 11:50, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Wrong scientific name?

I think Koi should be referred to as Cyprinus rubrofuscus., according to recent taxonomic insights. It is just the Doitsu variations that are hybrids of C. carpio wiht C. rubrofuscus. http://fishbase.mnhn.fr/Summary/SpeciesSummary.php?id=59920 . http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/bsc/jzs/2004/00000042/00000004/art00002 (here C. rubrofuscus is referred as a subspecies) http://siteresources.worldbank.org/INTEAPREGTOPENVIRONMENT/Resources/fishes_of_mongolia.pdf (no C. carpio in Mongolia) This makes the previous discussion interesting also, because the Persian carp are probably C. carpio. I think at least the name rubrofuscus as subspecies should be named, but probably it is a valid species.Viridiflavus (talk) 16:30, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Shut-up —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.186.134.102 (talk) 23:18, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Food and drink Tagging

This article talk page was automatically added with {{WikiProject Food and drink}} banner as it falls under Category:Food or one of its subcategories. If you find this addition an error, Kindly undo the changes and update the inappropriate categories if needed. The bot was instructed to tagg these articles upon consenus from WikiProject Food and drink. You can find the related request for tagging here . Maximum caution and careful attention was done to avoid any wrongly tagging any categories , but mistakes may happen... If you have concerns , please inform the project members on the project talk page -- TinucherianBot (talk) 07:12, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Relationship with the goldfish carp

What is the exact relationship of the koi carp compared to the goldfish carp? Both are cultivated in East Asia, the former in Japan and latter in China. Are the two species similar or one a subspecies of each other? Intranetusa (talk) 19:28, 15 August 2008 (UTC)