Talk:Nazism

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Revolutionary not Reactionary Talk:Nazism and socialism 2002 – 2004 Aug 2004 – Sep 2004 Oct 2004 – Apr 2006 roughly through July 2006 Talk page 5 Talk page 6

Alleged meaning of colours

The claim that the red and black colors of the symbol of the NSDAP would represent "Blut und Boden" (blood and land) was inserted by an IP at 3 June 2004. Is there any source for this claim? --Schwalker (talk) 19:26, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Blut Und Boden: The Ideological Basis of the Nazi Agricultural Program by Clifford R. Lovin seems to discuss Nazi symbolism in relation to this doctrine of Blood and Body. As does Path to Collective Madness: A Study in Social Order and Political Pathology by Dipak K. Gupta, this latter one actually links the flag itself to this. However there doesn't appear to be any reputable history sources that I can find online. SGGH ^speak! 14:57, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Cites please

The addition of POV commentary without cites is not acceptable, even if I agree with you. I have reverted recent edits.--Cberlet (talk) 03:47, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Attention please: antipolonism

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PLEASE KINDLY READ!!! Please add to description of NAZISM a word : antipolonism . Nazis (Nazi Germans in the times of Hitler rule ) started 1939 GENOCIDE AGAINST POLES. Genocide against Polish (GENTILES) women, gentelmen, children. Nazi Germans were murdering POLISH POWS (1939), POLES IN HOSPITALS (1944, Warsaw), POLES (POLES GENTILES) IN Nazi German CAMP AUSCHWITZ-BIRKENAU,AND OTHER NAZI GERMAN DEATH CAMPS. thanks Bill

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—Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.6.178.90 (talk) 11:39, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Irena Sendler-ATTENTION

Please add to the description of Nazism name: Sendler. This Polish Woman was rescuing Jews. She rescued (succeed) above 2500 Jewish Children from Nazi German prison called "Warsaw Ghetto".In 1965, Sendler was recognized by Yad Vashem as a Righteous Among the Nations, which was confirmed in 1983 by the Israeli Supreme Court. She also was awarded the Commanders Cross by the Israeli Institute. Sendler WAS POLE GENTILE (1919-2008). Sendler is Polish and Israeli hero. Please kindly ADD Sendler to description of Nazism AS ENEMY OF NAZI GERMANS OR ENEMY OF NAZISM. Perhaps You could write in Wiki: Polish Anti-Nazi fighter or hero. Thanks! :) 83.6.178.90 (talk) 11:52, 6 June 2008 (UTC)Bill

Contradicting Pages

The page on Nazism states "The party was renamed the National Socialist German Workers’ Party on February 24, 1920,[23] against Hitler’s choice of Social Revolutionary Party." (bold added) The linked page on Anton Drexler states "At Hitler's behest, Drexler changed the name of the Party to the National Socialist German Workers' Party (Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei or NSDAP) early in 1920."
Did Hitler want the party name changed to NSDAP or not? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.78.186.201 (talk) 04:58, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I think the short answer is, we don't know because the sources contradict one another. You might want to read through the section When did the DAP become the NSDAP? above, which also relates to the question you raised. I left the text as you found it because the issues are complex and I had other articles needing attention. If anybody wants to have a go at sorting it, be my guest and...well, good luck. Gnostrat (talk) 13:42, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

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Two citations on the matter:

At this early stage, Hitler brought up the idea of renaming the party, and he proposed the name 'Social Revolutionary Party'. However, Rudolf Jung insisted that the party should follow the pattern of Austria's Deutsche Nationalsozialistische Arbeiterpartei. As a consequence, the DAP was shortly renamed the NSDAP.

von Kuehnelt-Leddihn, Erik. Liberty or Equality: The Challenge of Our Time. Caxton 1952, pg 259. Heiden, Hans. Les Débuts du National-Socialisme, Revue d'Allemagne, VII, No. 71 (Sept. 15, 1933), p 821. Dr. Fabricius, Hans. Geschichte der Nationalsozialistischen Bewegung Berlin; Spaeth, 1937, Vol II, p 15.

It is he that convinced Hitler to use the term 'National Socialist' since Hitler wanted to rename the Munich DAP, the 'Social Revolutionary Party'.

von Kuehnelt-Leddihn, Erik. Leftism Revisited Regnery Gateway, Washington, D.C., 1990. pp 147-149. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.78.186.201 (talk) 22:05, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

DAB

Uh, you don't notice that the DAB is actually at the top of the page where people can find it, and that including this link doesn't show that NS isn't only a synonym of the Nazi Party, but that the DAB on top of the page does exactly that? THis is what the top of the article says, the DAB at top does exactly what you think the link to the DAB 3 lines below does. The DAB at the bottom doesn't do what you think it has to be in for--it's just a confusing link, people come here, see it's not what they want, find the handy link to the DAB, click on it. Or people come here, like me, from the DAB, think it's what they want, see the prominent link to National Socialism, are totally confused because that's what they thought they just came from, click on the link, and get sent back to the DAB, which they would have gone to by clicking on the top, if that's what they wanted. You're just making navigation difficult for those who are not interested in the invited, but rather the article, like me.--Blechnic (talk) 14:03, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

"

"National Socialism" redirects here. For other uses, see National Socialism (disambiguation).

Not to be confused with Nasi.

Nazism, commonly known as National Socialism"

Cberlet may be the guy to answer this one. Myself, I'd keep the second link and wouldn't confuse people with the DAB at the top of the page. National Socialism is the broad generic term and so it should, itself, be the disambig. Move National Socialism (disambiguation) to National Socialism and while we're at it, merge in National Socialist party and National Socialist Movement too. There's no reason for keeping ideologies, parties and movements on separate tiny pages, what's needed is one central page to summarise and keep track of all the various uses and definitions of the name. The lack of such a page, or rather, its apparent disintegration is what is at the root of your confusing experiences. Gnostrat (talk) 00:58, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Right now your revert of a perfectly sensible edit on my part is at the root of the confusion. Where's the editorial consensus that show's you should send readers from a dab to a dab in two sentences? Please link directly to it. And, please, stick to the issue at hand, not all your opinions about ideologies and other pages. The dab is the central page. Thanks. --Blechnic (talk) 01:28, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Try reading the last three years of edit warring over this issue before deciding that we are all idiots. Sometimes a compromise is just a compromise.--Cberlet (talk) 02:38, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Try considering the reader rather than yourselves before deciding otherwise. --Blechnic (talk) 05:18, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Blechnic, I'm just trying to explain a few things. I won't revert you a second time, but I can't speak for others. Gnostrat (talk) 04:10, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

If this endless right-wing edit warring over national socialism does not end (take note Vision Thing) I will support Gnostrat and merge all the pages National Socialism, National Socialist party, National Socialist Movement. I agreed to a compromise to end a three year long edit war by right wing fanatics. I am tired of the bullshit. Please abide by the consensus.--Cberlet (talk) 02:32, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Who do you think you are? -- Vision Thing -- 12:52, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

See? That's how easy it is around here to upset the delicate balance, just for the convenience of this, and not that, link to the same bloody fragment of a dab. This is no ordinary article, so you have to make allowances. If you want to ignite another 3-year edit war, Blechnic, go right ahead. Like I said, the navigation problems are caused by separating National Socialism (disambiguation) from National Socialism, and they can be solved by centralising the overview of generic NS on the latter page instead of it redirecting here. Then if you want National Socialism it will take you straight to generic NS where all the meanings are explained and we can have one in-text link from here to there and we all know where we are. But you probably won't get that without an edit war either. Now I'm off to some science articles, where people know how to cooperate. Gnostrat (talk) 20:39, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Don't blame me for your absurd edit war--that's what comes when you individually own an article and rely upon original research, rather than writing an article for the reading audience from well done research available to everyone. This last what an encyclopedia article is supposed to be. Any edit wars here are 100% the fault of the participants, and to even try to blame it on people who come here to try to read the article and get information simply shows none of you should be editing the article. This is an encyclopedia article, not your private playground. --Blechnic (talk) 21:36, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm not blaming you. It's advice, like I gave you in my edit summary to begin with. You walked into this unwittingly. Now you know the score. Gnostrat (talk) 04:13, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Bullshit. Here's a quote from your post, "If you want to ignite another 3-year edit war, Blechnic, go right ahead. Stop blaming me, or anyone else, than saying, "oh, I was just giving you good advice." "Walking into" what unwittingly? My need to quickly use the artile as an encyclopedia article rather your personal playground. The score is you think you own this article, and apparently you'll do what's necessary to get those away who disagree with you. --Blechnic (talk) 18:35, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

WP:No personal attacks says you're well out of order. You know nothing about my motives. The number of edits I have made in what you call my "personal playground" is tiny and, if you'd bothered to check, you'd have seen that my talk page record is one of mediating and proposing compromises in other people's edit wars. I do this shit because it helps stabilise the article, and that was my concern when I restored the link. Damn right I said to go right ahead if you want another edit war. I didn't accuse you of having ignited a thing; I was spelling out the likely consequences you will involve yourself in if you remove the second link. But I won't be the one reverting you, and even less will I be "owning" anything here, because what I actually meant was that I don't give a monkey's fart what you do from here on. I'm wasting my time wading through blind obstinacy and ignorant personal attacks each time I propose a compromise in good faith or explain one that is agreed and working, even if not ideal. Deal with it yourselves. Gnostrat (talk) 04:26, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

No, you're the one out of line, threatening me and blaming me for this crap. This is not your article. This article is not stabilized, it's a useless piece of crap being guarded jealously by its owners. If I make any edits to this article, I am not responsible for your edit warring, so stop blaming and warning editors who come here. I don't care what the heck you've tried to compromise here, or even care to weigh whether or not to believe you. As long as you are the guardian warning readers of this article away, blaming them for your edit war, you are the one at fault, not the readers who lamely came here thinking they could read an article. You attacked me when I came here to discuss a problem with this article, and you continue to attack me under the guise you are the great protector from edit wars. You're not. You're the problem. Stop attacking readers who come here.

I'm trying to feel at home on Wikipedia, so I too, make sure that any time someone walks into a landmine field that I am playing in I blame the mines on them under the guised of "warning them." I didn't start your edit war. I don't even know what it's about, and apparently not you or anyone here does either. You started it--it's yours. --Blechnic (talk) 06:10, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

And, you've achieved your goal. I'm out of here, the crap is all yours. --Blechnic (talk) 06:11, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Edit warring - Nazism and religion

The issue of Nazism and religion is complex. Please stop edit warring. There is substantial disagreement among scholars. Please stop inserting only one side of the many-sided debate. None of the extended text belongs in the intro. Continue this childish activity and I will ask that this page be locked down. Behave.--Cberlet (talk) 20:48, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

I make you notice that is Gennarus the user who deletes documented information on the basis of his own ideas and propagandistic purposes. The link of Christianity with Nazism is very important, and should be present in the intro. Without Christianity, Nazism would not have ever emerged. --Esimal (talk) 20:55, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

You are both acting like total jerks. Please stop edit warring.--Cberlet (talk) 00:59, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

My part in this has been to attempt a sustainable compromise between competing Christian and (apparently) rationalist agendas. The statement itself appears well justified but I'm unhappy with a string of website sources which may, or may not, be reliable. I would prefer to pin it down with scholarly sources (and by the way, Gennarous, pagans and occultists are allowed to be fair-minded, accredited scholars, every bit as much as Christians).

While I have tried to stay even-handed, I take great exception to Gennarous' offensive ad hominem attacks. I am in fact of dual faith, which should not be an issue but since you have made it one, I would point out that I am well placed to see both sides of the argument. There are tenuous neopagan inputs into Nazism but they have been blown out of proportion by sensationalist postwar writers. Christians need the integrity to see what is in front of them in their scriptures. Jesus denounced the Jewish religion in the strongest terms, and for what I would consider excellent theological reasons (whether you agree with them or not). But Christians also need the humility to recognise the unpalatable flip side: that centuries of Christian "antisemitism" (a disputable term, but one that we're stuck with) have been rooted in the words of Jesus, and often for very bad reasons.

Let's agree to leave these issues out of the lead, but they may well deserve further consideration in a neutral and objective manner in the sections dealing with religio-mystical contributions to Nazism. Gnostrat (talk) 10:32, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Gnostrat, I appreciate your honesty and rationality. I think the issue of Christianity should be kept in the intro to clarify an argument that for decades has been heavily decepted by Christian apologists. As I previously stated, a Nazism without Christian basises wouldn't have ever existed. Paganism has nothing to do with Nazism, since also Ariosophy (Thule Society) was modeled after Christian and Biblical mythology. --Esimal (talk) 19:01, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't entirely agree with you about Ariosophy. The Ariosophists were doing a form (or several forms) of Christian/pagan syncretism. When I wrote that the pagan input into Nazism has been vastly exaggerated, I include in that statement the supposed Ariosophy connection, which was likewise indirect and tenuous.

Where I will agree with you is that the Third Reich was officially Christian and that paganism was discouraged and sometimes actively suppressed (as also were some Christian groups that didn't toe the line). What is more, while it is possible to find antisemitism in some völkisch, neopagan and Ariosophical groups, you could say that it "infected" them from originally Christian sources. In the absence of Christianity, pagans would still have been (like Jesus) theologically opposed to Jewish monotheism. But it takes a John Chrysostom with his Eight Homilies against the Jews, or a Luther with The Jews and Their Lies, to lay the ideological groundwork for 19th-century Anti-Semitism, which was supported by Catholics and Lutherans, and without which there would have been no Nazism.

Should this be stated in the intro? Ideally, yes. I find it disturbing that edits for which I have now provided adequate citations (and I'm sure the experts here could find more heavyweight sources too) have been removed. This should not happen. But without first securing a rough consensus for reincluding this material in some (perhaps redrafted) form, we will just degenerate into another edit war. If enough people support reinclusion, so will I. By all means let us try. Just so people remember what we are arguing over, here is the text:

Nazism, particularly its antisemitism, found strong ideological roots in Christianity.

And let me reiterate that I personally wouldn't rely on the web articles, especially Online documentation with sources and photos which was published on a Willis Carto site. Also, please ignore the first three, extraneous notes which have slipped in from somewhere. Gnostrat (talk) 23:55, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Look, the problem is that reputable published scholars take different positions on this issue, so our task here on wikipedia is not to decide who is correct, but to reflect the diversity of views, which means the one-sided presentation of opinion in the intro is not appropriate. It really is that simple.--Cberlet (talk) 02:38, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Which is why I spoke of redrafting. A sentence or two, properly weighted to reflect the predominant opinions. Undue weight should not be given to fringe theories (or any weight at all in a brief summary), and you can't tell me there's even a significant-minority of serious support for the idea that Nazism grew out of paganism, the sort of "balance" which Gennarous inserted at one point. Gnostrat (talk) 03:59, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, I re-introduce the issue since nobody else (or nobody among the opponents) is interested in continuing this discussion. --Esimal (talk) 14:03, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Christianity, Paganism, Occultism

I don't know how much of this is the work of User:Esimal, but the part about religion is currently not acceptable. Goodrick-Clarke and Höhne are misquoted; Angebert (actually a pseudonym of two authors), Pennick, Moynihan, Flowers and webpages like this [1] are not reliable sources. As soon as the current edit war is over, this has to be removed. Zara1709 (talk) 20:00, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

BTW, is already someone writing a report for Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RR about Esimal? We don't need two people doing this.Zara1709 (talk) 20:06, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

While don't you mention your Christian fundamentalist friend Gennarous who has reverted four times? Your POV is disgusting Zara; your ability to decept sources is impressive. --Esimal (talk) 20:13, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Article has been locked, I was about to write the report. I also just now requested the locking admin to remove that reference you brought up. Esimal please take a look at Wikipedia:NPA for your edit summaries and the like.--Caranorn (talk) 20:17, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

• (ec)At this point I have protected the article for three days so that this unseemly behaviour can calm down. WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA still apply. I've directed the two principal editors to WP:3O and if necessary other forms of dispute resolution. I have no intention of getting into a content dispute, I have my own work to do and I'm not meant to be a judge. Keep it off my Talk page unless there's a brach of policy, please. --Rodhullandemu 20:21, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, that saves me the time. After a previous debate I didn't have the article on my watchlist, I just noticed this, since I had Esimal's talk page on my watchlist from the ongoing issue. Esimal, I have repeatedly explained to you that most of your sources are not acceptable or that you are misquoting the other ones. Instead of discussing the issue, you just call me a Christian fundamentalist, which I am definitely not. Zara1709 (talk) 20:25, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Caranorn, please: any edit made by Gennarous in last few hours contains an insult towards me. --Esimal (talk) 20:23, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Looking over sources fought over, in addition to the link reported by Zara1709 I think a book market place and Amazon.com are also not reliable sources. The books in those links might be, but definitely not the links. I also have serious doubts that Genarous (I'm supposing he added these, though I could be wrong, with all those edits it's tough to dig through the history) read either of those books, else he would not have resorted to such an odd approach to linking. I think either an admin should remove the unacceptable references during the block or else we shoudl at least try to agree on a consensus how to threat this issue once the block is lifted in a few days.--Caranorn (talk) 20:50, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Note, yes for the record. Genarous was also uncivil, conducted personal attacks and participated in edit waring including violation of 3RR.--Caranorn (talk) 20:50, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Nazism and Christianity: Mein Kampf

Mein Kampf, one of the central texts of Nazism, written by Hitler himself, is enough to state that Nazism was a basically Christian movement?

My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. A. H.

Wikipedia Christian fundamentalists are attempting to make Ariosophy a form of paganism, while it was mainly ispired by myths and concepts excerpted from Christian Weltaschauung and Biblical mythology (the link between the Aryans and Nephilims, for example). Ariosophy was absolutely not a form of germanic paganism, it was an occult syncretic movement.

--Esimal (talk) 20:43, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

No, Hitler is not the main reliable source. He was a chronic liar and opportunist.--Cberlet (talk) 20:46, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Esimal, STOP IT. Aside from Gnostrat, I am the only person who has made substantial edits at Ariosophy, and if I ever get to write a section there on this, I would say that it wasn't Neopaganism, but Neo-Gnosticism. That Hitler himself said that he was a Christian doesn't mean that much, but you would have a point if you would say that Christianity was the majority Religion in Nazi Germany and that many Christians did not oppose Nazism. But you are not saying that. All you are doing is trying to advance the position that Nazism paralleled Christianity in many respects, and you're doing that with inappropriate references. We could sort this out, but this would mean that you'd get better sources. Zara1709 (talk) 20:55, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Religion and Nazism

It is a complicated matter with lot's of major disagreements among scholars. There is no one "proper" POV on this page, just fair and NPOV summaries of existing research.

Further information: Religious aspects of Nazism, Religion in Nazi Germany, Positive Christianity, and Nazi occultism

These are the pages where a compromise should get synthesized. Text on these pages should only be summarized here, and then opened up for debate among editors who have read all those other pages.--Cberlet (talk) 20:44, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Nazism was basically Christian. Many of its aspects were inspired and supported by Christianity. Look at these photos, in particular that depicting a Nazi assembly with an enormous Chrismon on the front wall. --Esimal (talk) 20:49, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

OK, I'm going to risk jumping into this fray again. In fact, due to an edit conflict, I'm just going to throw in my tuppence-worth without having read the newer posts. First, the website sources are not reliable and should not be used. Secondly, I added Jones & Pennick, Moynihan & Flowers as academic substitutes for the websites, they are neopagan authors but also accredited scholars who take objective, nuanced and fair-minded positions and I regard them as essentially reliable. However, edits are being made by Gennarous which attribute opinions to these sources which the sources don't support. The same with Hohne, which supports the SS being organised on Christian models (Teutonic Knights, Jesuits etc.) and is misused if it is cited for anything otherwise. The same with Goodrick-Clarke, who is being cited by Gennarous to establish "occult roots of Nazism" which the book itself demonstrates are largely imaginary.

To be fair, I do not accept Esimal's use of Ariosophy as a "Christian influence" on Nazism either (not without qualification – it was only partially Christian and a very minor influence), but Esimal does not bear the major responsibility for the misuse of sources here, and Gennarous' bias and bigotry are plain from his edit summaries. As long as the sentence is edited into a form like the one by Bytwerk ("Nazism, particularly its antisemitism, found some ideological roots in Christianity"), it is an acceptable summary statement for the intro. On the other hand, adding anything about pagan or occult ideological roots is not acceptable in a brief summary and contravenes WP:Undue weight unless these were significant influences and a significant minority of scholars interpret the evidence in this way. Goodrick-Clarke is the main authority in this area and his book actually says almost the opposite.

Please note also the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Christianity#New Age Pagan/Atheist attack Christianity on "Nazism" article where the essential idea of Esimal's edit is supported by all the respondents, and this is the position which I also have taken from the beginning of this dispute. Gnostrat (talk) 21:05, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

The problem here is that everyone is taking Hitler's statements literally, not recognizing the intent. Nazism is not a Christian movement because (1) Christianity is not its focus and (2) Many other movements, ideologies, and political parties have made links to religious supporters, but that does not make them religious-oriented. For example, in my country, Canada, we have a social democratic party called the New Democratic Party which had a leader in named Tommy Douglas who from the 1930s to at least the 1960s linked up Christian values (especially in the United Church of Canada) to the social democratic agenda. Many have recognized that this "social gospel" attitude was an element of the NDP but certainly wasn't its sole element, nor its leading element. I am not trying to link a social democratic party to a fascist one, nor am I saying that Tommy Douglas was dishonest about his religious convictions as I believe Hitler was, but what I am trying to say is that at the time it was politically smart to establish connections with the Christian religious community in predominantly Christian countries. Of course Hitler had to make up his own version of Christianity which denied that Jesus Christ was ever a Jew, but look at the direction of what Hitler was trying to do. He wasn't endorsing Christianity of the day, he was trying to remould it to fit the Nazi cause. On the issue of Nazi paganism, there were differing factions, SS leader Heinrich Himmler and a number of members of the SS saw a return to paganism as a means of ellimating all possible traces of Judaic influence on Germany. However a key point is that Hitler was not in favour of a return to paganism, why? he claimed that because paganism collapsed as Christianity replaced it, paganism was an inferior religious concept. Hitler had his differences with Christianity but he was politically smart enough to know that he would lose enormous public support if he publicly challenged Christianity. I read somewhere that Hitler in fact disliked Christianity for not being neither as strong, heroic, or carrying the devotion as he perceived Japanese Shintoism and Islam as being. Nazi endorsement of Christianity was used to draw more support for him and the Nazi movement. If anything, I think it would be reasonable to say the Nazi religion was Nazism itself, Hitler was idolized in propaganda all over Germany by the Nazis, portrayed by them as a holy saviour. Nowhere near the amount of attention Hitler got from the Nazis was devoted to spreading Christianity. And that is why I can say that Nazism is not a Christian movement and it is not a pagan movement, it's ideology is its religion.--R-41 (talk) 01:58, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree with most of this (though respected scholars have argued, and still argue, that Jesus was not a Jew, and Himmler's paganism would surely be contested). Nazism certainly had religious attributes – messiah, holy book, militant orders... But the fact that Nazis could be Protestants or Catholics, or neopagans (within limits – no secret societies, no high office and no official endorsement!) or even atheists (Bormann, apparently) shows why it would be misleading to call Nazism a religion, even a religion sui generis. On the other hand, the ideas which went into this peculiar brew had a pre-existence within established religious traditions before they became ingredients of the Nazi world-view. This, and not simply or only that Hitler exploited Christian reflexes, is what is meant by saying that Nazism has roots (its major roots, anyway) in Christianity. Honest Christian writers know this. (Repentance is no sin; the capacity for self-criticism is one thing which does Christianity credit). Gnostrat (talk) 02:56, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

There is a debate over the influence of Christianity on Nazism. Here is my take on it:

• Nazism itself clearly picked up themes and styles historically used by Christianity, but it was not a form of Christianity, even though there were many Christian collaborators, as Steigmann–Gall has amply documented.(i)= These collaborators fashioned a hybrid of Christianity that coexisted with paganism and secularism within the German Nazi version of fascism. This is not the same, however, as the Rumanian Iron Guard, Croatian Ustashi, or Hungarian Arrow Cross, which were hybridized from one religious tradition to the exclusion of all others. I agree with Griffin when he argues that the German Nazis were a secular political movement that was not a hybrid of an ‘established religious or metaphysical tradition’ but operated ‘entirely within the sphere of historical notions of the immortality of the nation or the race’, while they nonetheless extensively used religious language, and liturgical–style ‘displays of theatrical politics’, as part of their mobilization of masses around palingenetic myths.(ii)

• Steigmann–Gall suggests many in the Nazi movement thought they were locked in an apocalyptic battle, and that this idea of ‘defending good by waging war against evil, fighting for God against the Devil, for German against Jew’, was ‘predicated on a dualistic understanding of human behavior hegemonic in Western Christian civilization’.(i) Dualism and apocalypticism, however, existed before the rise of Christianity, and exists outside of Christianity. While Christianity profoundly and directly influences the forms of dualism and apocalypticism in Western Culture, these tendencies have long escaped their roots and established themselves in various secular modes and in non–Christian religions.

Chip Berlet. (2004) “Christian Identity: The Apocalyptic Style, Political Religion, Palingenesis and Neo-Fascism.” Totalitarian Movements and Political Religions, Vol. 5, No. 3, (Winter), special issue on Fascism as a Totalitarian Movement.

Citing

(i) Richard Steigmann–Gall, The Holy Reich: Nazi Conceptions of Christianity, 1919–1945 (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2003), pp. 19, 189, 261, 265. quote from p. 261.

(ii)Roger Griffin, e–mail to author, 10 November 2003. Here and in the following paragraphs I am relying on extensive e–mail dialogues between Griffin and me concerning taxonomy and terminology starting in 2001 and continuing through 2003

See also:

Redles, David. 2005. Hitler’s Millennial Reich: Apocalyptic Belief and the Search for Salvation, New York, NY: New York University Press.

Rhodes, James M. 1980. The Hitler Movement: A Modern Millenarian Revolution. Stanford, CA: Hoover Institution Press, Stanford University.

--Cberlet (talk) 13:14, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

I haven't read Steigmann-Gall yet but this seems a fair summing-up to me. As Esimal has now resigned but Gennarous may continue pushing for the form of words in the "locked" text (which misuses sources and gives undue weight to the occult/pagan angle), perhaps we could think about moving towards a summary statement in line with, and citing, your sources? On that basis, I would be happy to delete my sources (Jones & Pennick; Flowers & Moynihan) to forestall any unnecessary distraction or contention. (This doesn't imply agreement with Zara's view that they are unreliable, but maybe we can have that discussion another time.) Gnostrat (talk) 20:35, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Since you have now suggested it verbatim; I would be happy too if we could postpone the discussion about the reliability of Jones & Pennick and Flowers & Moynihan for a while. I can probably grant some reliability for Jones&Pennick, although the Table of Contents of the German Edition of their books doesn't suggest that they talk about Nazism at all: [2]

Chapter 11 for the Nazis; the citation was for the record of Christian antisemitism. Gnostrat (talk) 02:55, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

But I have strong views concerning Moynihan. Someone who has edited and republished the writings of James Mason (National Socialist) is not a reliable reference for an article on Nazism. Ok, I am using his Lords of Chaos (book) for the whole Early Norwegian black metal scene stuff, too, but I really think that the ideological undercurrent of that book should be included in the article about it. The interviews are authentic, but what Moynihan himself writes is extreme. But it seems that other editors have real difficulties understanding that...

Hey, we weren't going to do Moynihan! Don't tempt me :) 'Cause I'd have to get in the point that he's "republished" Wiligut too, and I can't imagine how anybody who reads this groundbreaking publication of actual source documents for the only effectual SS occultism can come away thinking Moynihan is actually promoting these SS fantasies. I haven't read Lords of Chaos, but you haven't read The Secret King. We can compare sometime. Gnostrat (talk) 02:55, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Anyway, that's another problem. I only fear that I have to deal with it sooner or later. Concerning the case here, I would say that we remove all references about Nazi religiosity except for Steigmann-Gall, Goodrick-Clarke and probably Höhne, and actually write what they say. I wouldn't have a problem if we then use Jones & Pennick and Flowers & Moynihan in the Nazi occultism article, as reference for the point that Neopagan authors have opposed the view of Nazism as some sort of Neopagan religion. (Now, if we would only knew who held such a view in the first place...)

Lewis Spence, they reckon. Gnostrat (talk)

I guess I can write what has to be said about Neopaganism in the religious aspects of Nazism article based on Höhne and Goodrick-Clarke, so we would get completely around of having to discuss the reliability of Jones & Pennick and Flowers & Moynihan. (Taking them as example of Neopagan authors who hold the view that Nazism was not neopagan of course doesn't imply anything about their reliability.)

We can do that, although we can't shelve the reliability question indefinitely. Regardless of religion or irreligion, a scholar is a scholar. Gnostrat (talk) 02:55, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

If there are no objections to this (especially from User:Gennarous), I guess we could unprotect the page, then. User talk:Esimal has quit Wikipedia, without waiting for the result of Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Esimal. Zara1709 (talk) 21:22, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Apparently you can't get a permalink from www.buecher.de. If you can read German, got to [3] and scroll down to "Buch öffnen" for the Table of Contents of the book by Jones, Prudence & Pennick, Nigel. Zara1709 (talk) 21:28, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Unprotect the page, remove the misleading sentence, and work it up here, I'd say. We could elaborate around Bytwerk's wording (above), since it conforms roughly to what's in the sources you want to keep in. Gnostrat (talk) 02:55, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Seems that the page is unprotected now, but I can't work on it, because I have to do something in RL....Zara1709 (talk) 12:24, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Ok, nobody else seems interested in drafting a new summary about religion since I removed this one. As far as concerns the lead, I reckon I'll let sleeping dogs lie. We can say it better in the Religion section anyhow. Gnostrat (talk) 01:50, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Nazism and collectivism

Why is a an economist being cited for Nazism being collectivist? Bobisbob (talk) 21:21, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Listing collectivism as one of Nazism's "main features" is unjustified. Although some have labelled Nazism as collectivist in its nature, others have argued that it is non-collectivist. Thus, as there is no general agreement on whether National Socialism is collectivist, it can not be stated that it is a 'main feature', that's ludicrous. Like Bobisbob has mentioned, citing an individual for Nazism being collectivist is silly and laughable at best. One could cite Karl Marx to argue a case that "capitalism's failure is inevitable", but that doesn't make it true... - PaineReason —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.4.86.56 (talk) 16:05, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

"Arab Nazism"

This is simply hilarious. Except for being grossly pov, it doesn't relate to the article topic. Hostility to Jews or cooperation with the Axis during the war is not Nazism per se. --Soman (talk) 08:26, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Essentially, I agree. Ba'athism could better be compared with Arab Nazism. The IRA had some sympathy for the Germans as well, not because they were Nazis, but because they were anti-British. The sources given for the "Arab Nazi" passage are all highly POV e.g. American Christians for Palestine and even Bejamin Netanyahu. Perhaps "Arab sympathy for Nazism" might be closer, for reasons which can be seen in subsequent history. Most of the fighting in the Middel East was the British against the French.--Streona (talk) 08:45, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm not opposed to discussing the impact of Nazism in different parts of the world, but it would need adequte sourcing and be in balance in the rest of the article. Nazism did have an impact outside of Europe, but often its difficult to separate between what was an influence from Nazism and what was influenced by fascism. Certainly Baathism and Kemalism had partial inspirations from European fascism. In Lebanon, the Kataeb was built up on fascist lines. --Soman (talk) 09:00, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I think the material is too POV and too large to remain on the page at this time. There is scholarship about these topics, but we need to make sure we are considering the role of the current wave of Islamophobia and Arabophobia in this editorial insertion.

If we are to carry such material, it would be better to start editing it at Fascism as an international phenomenon until there is consensus there, and then move mentions of it with links here and to one of the various Fascism pages.--Cberlet (talk) 14:02, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I reread the section I put in and realize I did a sloppy job and included things that were not appropriate and not neutral. Criticism well taken and apologies rendered. Please hear out my case for an improved section on Arab Nazism. The proper solution is to improve it and shorten it, not delete it.

It is an obvious truth that hostility to Jews or cooperation with the Axis is not in itself Nazism. If working directly, even personally, for Hitler and contributing directly to the annihilation of the Jews doesn’t make you a Nazi, what does? Arab Nazis were key allies to the Axis powers, comparable to Mussolini, not to the IRA. They were not Nazi sympathizers, they were a crucial part of the successes of the National Socialists. Yes, of course they were motivated by hostility to Jews, as were other Nazis, but that was not the limit of their activities. They received funding from the National Socialist Party, had youth groups called Nazi Scouts and paid for by Hitler, had an espionage network that reported to German intelligence, raised Moslem legions for the Wehrmacht, fought allied troops and killed Jews in the Balkans and Crimea, and contributed to Nazi policy. They developed a popular song, “Allah in heaven, Hitler on earth.” I repeat, If working directly for Hitler and contributing directly to the annihilation of the Jews doesn’t make you a Nazi, what does?

The American Christian Palestine Committee was a 1947 organization, a blue ribbon panel with members such as Mayor Robert Wagner, Fiorella LaGuardia, Paul Tillich and Prof. Reinhold Neibuhr. Do not confuse them with Evangelicals in today’s political scene. In any event, the sources they cite, such as Churchill and British military sources, can be judged on their own merit. I will be happy to add some more sources.

Please – do not project fears about “Arabophobia” backwards in time anachronistically, and censor this important chapter in Nazi history. I would argue the reverse is true – That the Arab role in National Socialism has been censored and ignored for decades, and is only now being addressed.

Here are some reasons why it is important to include section on Arab Nazism: 1. German National Socialists directly funded the riots in Palestine that were carried out by the Mufti of Jerusalem. This was crucial to the success of the Final Solution. It is not a minor incident. To repeat, the Final Solution would not have worked without it. It must be part of the story. 2. The Mufti met personally with Hitler. We have photo of meeting, Nazi documents and the Mufti's diary, all documenting that he and Hitler agreed on program to close down Palestine as a refuge for Jews fleeing the Final Solution, eliminate Jews in Palestine and make the Mufti the Fuhrer of the Middle East. This was a crucial part of Nazi success. 3. The Mufti worked in Berlin during the war and raised Muslim SS troops in the Balkans. This was an important part of the Nazi war effort. 4. The Mufti personally went to Iraq and organized an Axis coup there, to cut off petroleum supplies to the British. This was a key arena to the Nazi war effort.--Cimicifugia (talk) 17:00, 20 July 2008 (UTC)Cimicifugia

National Socialism is a political ideology, and a political movement. It is not a term to be used for people who had links with the Axis, nor for hostility to Jews. Nazism is not limited to the context of the World War II, being 'Nazi' is not just about WWII alignments. Except for the mentioned 'Nazi Scouts' (source?), you haven't been able to produce any material on an Nazi political movement amongst the Arabs. --Soman (talk) 17:46, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Morse writes "After Adolf Hitler came to power in 1933 , Al-Husseini proceeded to set up a Palestinian Arab Youth Group , known as the Nazi Scouts." This means that 'Nazi Scouts' was a name given to the group, probably by its political opponents. --Soman (talk) 17:59, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Cimicifugia again: Agreed, National Socialism is a political ideology and program, which the Mufti of Jerusalem and his supporters were a part of. This Wiki article defines Nazism this way:

1.”refers primarily to the ideology and practices of the Nazi Party under Adolf Hitler” 2. “not a monolithic movement, but…a combination of various ideologies and groups 3. “Historians often disagree on…whether Nazism can be considered a coherent ideology”. 4. “much of what is thought to be “Nazism” is in line with Hitler’s own political beliefs – the ideology and the man remain largely interchangeable in the public eye” 5. “The core concept of Nazism is that the German volk is under attack from a judeo-bolshevist conspiracy, and must become united, discipline and self sacrificing (submit to Nazi leadership) in order to win. So, to apply these criteria to the Mufti of Jerusalem and his recruits: they subscribe to the core concepts of being under attack by a a judeo-bolshevist conspiracy, and becoming united, discipline and self sacrificing (submit to Nazi leadership) in order to win. They adding Arabs alongside German volk, and want a Greater Palestine as Hitler wanted a Greater Germany, with domination of the entire world as the final goal – these modifications were discussed personally with Hitler and agreed to by him. The Mufti and his followers were supporters of Adolf Hitler, the man and his ideology. The Mufti met personally with Hitler to coordinate mutual support; he was paid by Hitler; his programs were funded by the National Socialists and coordinated with them; he undertook propaganda, sabotage, military recruiting and organization, reviewed German troops, promoted Final Solution policies, conducted espionage and fomented a coup under Nazi orders. In common use of the term Nazi, if you support Hitler, you are a Nazi. The Mufti went far beyond support – he was part of the Nazi hierarchy, based in Berlin. What more could you want to call someone a Nazi? And lastly, the success of the Final Solution depended on his contributions. He should not be excluded from an article on Nazism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cimicifugia (talk • contribs) 21:49, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Again, simply sympathies for Hitler doesn't equate Nazism. Nazism is an ideology. The fact that the term 'Nazism' was definition problems, doesn't mean that we can apply the term arbitrarily as to our own liking. 'Nazism' cannot be reduced to a general slur against people we don't like. I'd say that a few minimum criteria for being defined as a National Socialist are; 1) belief in racial conflict, supremacy of the Aryan/Nordic race, 2) militarism, seeking we restruction of society along military lines, 3) corporativism, 4) rejection of democracy, liberalism, postmodernism. Many movements were inspired to some degree by Nazism and Fascism, but that is not the same as being a Nazi. As you can read from the article on the Mufti, his relations with Germany and whether he was an ideologically convinced anti-semite or simply playing realpolitik are debated subjects. --Soman (talk) 18:06, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi, Soman. I wish someone else would weigh in on what is becoming a dead end. Soman and I obviously disagree. He doesn't even include antisemitism in his definition of Nazi, and questions whether the Mufti was an antisemite, which seems to me an unusal pov and indicates this discussion will never get anywhere. How is this resolved? I agree to improve the section on the Arab Naziam, which I admit was badly done. It could be short with links. But no article on Nazism in 2008 is complete without covering this very important part of the story. My basic argument is if someone believes in Nazism, met with and worked for Hitler, reported to Eichman, spread Nazi ideology, wore the swastika, killed Jews as part of the Final Solution, advocated teh Final Solution to others...that person is a Nazi. It's simply word games to claim he isn't. The fact he had his own motives of Arab nationalism doesn't make him not a Nazi, it makes him a Nazi Arab nationalist versus a democratic ARab nationalist.

so, to Soman: You say ”simply sympathies for Hitler doesn't equate Nazism”. I totally agree. But by what stretch of the imagination can you equate “simply sympathies” with this kind of activity on the part of the Mufti: is is a paid agent of the Nazis, recruited by Eichman, he makes speeches saying he agrees with the Nazi regime and want to see it extended to other countries, he works tirelessly to make that happen and to make teh Final Solution happen, he is effective at this work - the troops he recruited and extorted wiped out Bosnian Jewry. He used the Swastika as his emblem. He described himself as in teh Nazi camp. He is credited with being one of the two key players in bringing German Nazi ideology into the Arab world and fusing it with religious fundamentalism. This is not what "simply sympathies" means in the normal world, is it?

from The NAZI RooTs of PAlesTINIAN NATIoNAlIsm ANd IslAmIc Jihad by David Meir-Levi, Professor, formerly Professor of Near Eastern History and Archeology, Hebrew University of Tel Aviv and is currently the director of research at the Israel Peace Initiative in San Francisco: “… he assured the German consul in Jerusalem that “the muslims inside and outside Palestine welcome the new regime of Germany and hope for the extension of the fascist, anti-democratic governmental system to other countries.”

The youth organization established by the mufti used Nazi emblems, names and uniforms. … most significantly, the German Propaganda ministry developed strong links with the Grand mufti and with Arabic newspapers, creating a propaganda legacy that would outlast husseini, hitler, and all the other figures of World War II. In september 19 7, Adolf eichmann and another ss officer carried out an exploratory mission in the middle east lasting several weeks, and including a friendly productive visit with the Grand mufti. It was after that visit, in fact, that the mufti went on the Nazi payroll as an agent and propagandist…. The Grand mufti was a bridge figure in terms of transplanting the Nazi genocide in europe into the post-war middle east and creating a fascist heritage for the Palestinian national movement. … during the “Great Arab Revolt” of 19 6-9, which al-husseini helped organize and which Germany funded, the swastika was used as a mark of identity on Arabic leaflets and graffiti. Arab children welcomed each other with the hitler salute, and a sea of German flags and pictures of hitler were displayed at celebrations. The identification was so strong that those bliged to travel through areas involved in the Palestinian revolt soon learned that it was prudent to attach a swastika to their vehicle to ward off attacks by Arab snipers. …husseini fielded some ten thousand fighters, an active propaganda unit, and modern weapons, thanks in large part to Nazi money and military assistance. …(may, 1941) in Berlin, the Grand mufti worked tirelessly on behalf of Germany and Nazism. he played a pivotal behind-the-scenes role in instigating a pro-Nazi coup in Iraq in 1941, in urging Nazis and pro-Nazi governments in europe to transport Jews to death camps, in training pro-Nazi Bosnian brigades, and, after hitler’s cause was lost, in funneling Nazi loot into post-war Arab countries. … his muslim “hanjar” division was credited with the murder of roughly 90% of Bosnian Jewry. he became a familiar voice on Germany’s Arabic- language radio propaganda station, broadcasting from the town of Zeesen near Berlin, to convince Arabs and muslims in europe (and especially the muslim populations of the Balkans and Albania) that muslims and Nazis were brothers, and that these two kindred peoples needed to unite against their common enemy: the Jews. from Germany, the mufti effectively wielded his weapons of religious power, mob incitement, and assassination to silence opposition and eliminate moderate rivals. he succeeded, almost single-handedly, in engraving on the Arab consciousness the image of the Jew as the demonic apotheosis of all things evil. Not only was everything Jewish evil; but under al-husseini’s deft diatribe, everything evil was Jewish. After meeting with hitler on November 21, 1941, husseini praised the Germans because they “know how to get rid of the Jews, and that brings us close to the Germans and sets us in their camp.” on march 1, 1944, the mufti called out in a broadcast from Zeesen: “Arabs! Rise as one and fight for your sacred rights. Kill the Jews wherever you find them. Kill them with your teeth if need be. This pleases God, history, and religion. This saves your honor.” his goal, with the help of the Nazis, was “to solve the question of the Jewish elements in Palestine and in other Arab countries as required by national interests, and in the same way as the Jewish question in the Axis lands is being solved.” 10 his own memoirs, and the testimony of German defendants at the Nuremberg trials later on, showed that he planned a death camp modeled on Auschwitz to be constructed near Nablus for the genocide of Palestine’s Jews. … It was the mufti who urged hitler, himmler, and General Ribbentrop to concentrate Germany’s considerable industrial and military resources on the extermination of european Jewry. The foremost muslim spiritual leader of his time helped in his own way by lobbying to prevent Jews from leaving hungary, Romania, and Bulgaria, even though those governments were initially willing to let them go. As eichmann himself recounted: “We have promised him [the mufti] that no european Jew would enter Palestine any more.”

1 But with the cold War looming, the British and the Americans sought to curry favor with the Arab world (and prevent the UssR from making political headway there) by allowing him to escape. he fled first to egypt, and later to syria. from damascus, hajj Amin al-husseini reestablished himself as the foremost spokesman for the Arabs of Palestine. … Al-husseini’s Nazi ambitions, even though they were now seen as part of the holocaust that he had helped in his small way to engineer, continued to be a source of pride for his Arab supporters after his death in 1948. ________________________________________ … Nazism was eradicated in europe after World War II, but it was alive and well in the Arab world. The new amalgam of Nazi and muslim Jew-hatred created by the preaching of hassan al-Banna and husseini continued to grow in influence." from David Meir-Levi, Professor, formerly Professor of Near Eastern History and Archeology, Hebrew University of Tel Aviv and is currently the director of research at the Israel Peace Initiative in San Francisco. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cimicifugia (talk • contribs) 00:34, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

There were indeed Arab fascist movements that cropped up in the Middle-East during the thirties, in Egypt, Syria, Iraq and Lebanon. Most of these movements, however, died away fairly quickly, and were replaced by more viable forms of Arab nationalism. These movements' focus was anti-colonial, anti-Persian, and generally anti-Jewish. (Saddam Hussein's father figure, Khairallah Talfah, was involved in one of them, the ideology of which may have contributed to Saddam's politics).

Ironically, the only Arab fascist movement that survived the thirties was the Falange in Lebanon, which sided with the Christian government and its U.S. and Israeli allies against the Shi'a militias during the eighties.

Also don't confuse fascism, Arab or otherwise, with the more mainstream forms of Arab nationalism such as Nasserism or Ba'athism. First, the fact that Arab nationalism cropped up in the Middle-East and not Europe means there were a certain number of cultural differences between the two (such as the role of religion in each movement). Second, fascism was mostly a product of the German and Italian middle-classes; the Arab world had no equivalents at the time, and the mass movements that supported nationalism in the fifties came mostly from the poor and working classes. Third, they differed on economics - Arab nationalism was socialist and involved the nationalization of most sectors of the economy, while fascism recognized and respected the independence of the business sector. 147.9.228.235 (talk) 16:00, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

lead

I put the elements of Nazism as the last line. It fits with the context of the second paragrah. And it should also be noted that Nazism took many elements from the right, not just formed alliances with them, but still is not linked to conservatism. 69.179.59.208 (talk) 15:49, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Lead to which I'm reverting was established by consensus and it is supported by the sources. -- Vision Thing -- 18:54, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

VisionThing you keep reverting my edits. it's not enough to say the Nazis allied with the right they also took elements from them. Together my edit of "while it incorporated elements from both political wings, it formed its most solid alliances on the political right." is viald and notr redundent? Please stop reverting it. Bobisbob (talk) 20:44, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Nazism a leftist term

Why is Nazism consider right-winged when it is a socialist concept? Militarism shouldn't make any difference. - Crazyconan (talk) 05:57, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

That depends on your definition of "Left" and of fascism. The origin of Mussolini's fascism was gangs who were emplyed nby landowners to beat up Communists who had taken over their farms in the early 20s. The German Nazis had mod=stly served apprenticeships in the Freikorps who performed a similar role in an urban context by, for example, murdering Rosa Luxembourg and Karl Liebknecht. The orgin of the term left was in the French Estates General, whereby the opposition sat to the left of the speaker. I would suggest that the "left" supports the interests of the dispossessed and the "right" supports the interests of those who have power and wealth. The rich and powerful seemed not to have especially suffered from the policies of the Nazis until the War. They were supported by the ex-Kaiser and the Junkers aristocracy, whilst still attempting to appeal to the masses- a contradiction which Hitler resolved in 1936 with the Night of the Long Knives. What distinguishes Nazis from Conservatives is that they are a revolutionary movement and the Third Reich continually referred to its elf as a "National Revolution", mostly seeking to restore perceived -generally mythical- former glories. e.g. of Frederick the Great, racial purity of the Folkwanderung and the glory days of an Aryan Atlantis.--Streona (talk) 07:51, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Right and left are arbitrary terms; there's a general consensus on what they mean, but not a completely clear one, and it's not always the same thing now as it was in the thirties. To make it worse, political pundits come in and label anything on the other side of the aisle "fascist" or "totalitarian" and further muddy the waters.

The reason Nazism and fascism are generally considered right-wing movements, and the biggest difference between them and the communists, is economics, specifically each regime's relationships with the workers and the business sector. In communist countries, both parts of society suffered; both labor unions and private enterprises, workers' rights and property rights, were abolished, and the State had final say in all matters.

Fascism and Nazism also repressed workers, but they did not not repress business; that's the difference. Under Hitler, the German government abolished unions, abolished the right to collective bargaining, abolished the right to strike, and caused real wages to drop by about 25% between 1933 and 1939. Nothing similar was ever done to the business sector; private enterprise and private property were always respected by the government, and businessmen were greatly strengthened by subsidies and by the government's penchant for union-breaking. (Hitler's bias towards the business sector went so far that under his government, a German worker was required by law to obtain the consent of his previous employer before getting a new job).

When we say "right-wing", we're clearly not talking about libertarianism, with its the purist "separation of economy and state" ideology, or about the robber-baron model in which business controls government. But because fascism and Nazism involved strong ties and mutual reinforcement between business and government, because they had a very strong stance against workers' rights, and because of the support the Nazi regime received from the other conservative elements of society - the military, much of the religious establishments, and a number of mainstream nationalist and anti-communist politicians - they are usually classified as part of the right. R2Parmly (talk) 21:21, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Post WWII group

I recall reading that there were "a group of Nazis/Wehrmacht etc" who persisted in post-WWII Germany causing assorted damage and assassinations etc - what was the name given to them? Jackiespeel (talk) 15:17, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Would that be Werwolf? --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 15:34, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Probably. One of the "uses of Wikipedia talk pages" is to resolve topics that have gone to the edge of memory: one can remember the area but not the particular detail.

Can "someone" do an archive of this talk page. Jackiespeel (talk) 21:40, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

• Done.--jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 00:46, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks - some of us prefer to "just add pages and adapt text" (g).

Should there be a link to the Werwolf (and some of the other related terms)? Is the article getting long enough to split? Jackiespeel (talk) 14:24, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

national socialist

why does national socialism link to nazism? socialism and communism have their own links. Nazi is not an -ism in the first place. (Why does nazi link here to?) It is a proper noun, a proper noun can't by definition be an -ism. Nazi should go to National Socialist German worker's party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Party). National Socialism is certainly not limited to the views of Hitler's party. There are national socialist experiments all over the world that vary greatly from hitler's ideology. According to this, "Nazism, commonly known as National Socialism refers primarily to the ideology and practices of the Nazi Party under Adolf Hitler..." It's one thing to say 'nazism' refers to hitler's practices, it's quite another to say national socialism refers primarily to...

This flagrantly in violation of POV, b/c national socialism is a much broader definition. Lihaas (talk) 22:33, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

The article does state that Nazism is only one of many National Socialist movements and National Socialism does not link to the Nazism article. Bobisbob (talk) 21:46, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

I was off my rocker with that last comment ;) but the intro para does say the same in that it "is also referred to as (nati soc)" Nati Socism is cetainly a part of Hitler's ideology but its not what national socialism is though. Still think we should have a seperate national socialism article. Lihaas (talk) 10:43, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Etymology

Does 'Nazi' really come from "Nationalsozialistische," the first two syllables, as the article states.

I have always been under the impression it was the "Nationalsozialitsche." This way the letters are identical and the phonetics are retained. It just makes sense. Is this a common misconception I have? D Boland (talk) 02:24, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

• Don't know if it's common, but it's certainly a misconception. Just say "National..." a few times in German, and you'll note that you're starting with "Nazi" every time -- it's how it's pronounced. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 03:14, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
  • So the change to the letter 'z' is just to make it more obvious to use the /ts/ sound, alright then. Thanks for the reply. D Boland (talk) 01:03, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Terminology?

I'm wondering if we're locked into a debate over terminology rather than a substantive issue? I've been looking back over my notes from college (admittedly it's been 5 years) and my WWII class as well as my Comparative Government class never referred to Nazism as a proper noun. Neither, can I find any reference to it as an ideology. However, I do seem to recall that it was used as a way to describe the German brand of fascism.

From what I can remember, this was merely a means of convenient reference, more than an attempt to assign an alternative term to National Socialism. The latter is I think a term that we can all agree on as a specific political ideology.

In sum, would it be appropriate to edit the page and say that Nazism was a "branch" or "form" of the early 20th century forms of Fascism that arose in Europe in the wake of World War I? And could we also say that it is mostly associated with the ideals of the NSDAP and their leader, Adolph Hitler?

Responses for or against these proposals are encouraged. I think if we work on this we can arrive at a consensus and end the debate to the satisfaction of everyone interested. Wildcard6 (talk) 20:52, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

I was trying to the same thing, you just put it more eloquently, nati. socialism as I read academically too, is not limited to nazism. The word itself is new to me. I suggested an article about national socialism along the lines of the socialism article. An ideology on its own, beyond the nazi party. Lihaas (talk) 10:45, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

economy

I have replaced

According to some, Hitler extended state controls over prices, labor, materials, dividends and foreign trade, limiting competition and private ownership in attempt to direct all segments of economy towards "general welfare".[85] From the 1930s state ownership increased in both war and non-war sectors of economy.[86] Others however claim that the Nazis largely tranferred public ownership into the private sector only nationalizing certin ineffective industries, while still extending government control over the direction of the economy.[87]

with this

While the Nazis transfered public ownership and services in the private spector, they increased state control, regulation, and inference in economic affairs.[85] Under the Nazis, free competiton and regulation by the market greatly decreased.[86] Nevertheless, Hitler's social Darwinist beliefs made him reluctant to disregard competiton and private property.[87]

the former makes it seems like there's a debate. They all agree that the Nazis privatized but they also argee that they made extensive control. There is no contradiction. As far as deleting sources, I am merely replacing then with new ones. Bobisbob (talk) 17:35, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Go ahead and add the other sources if they are saying the same thing. But the to remove certain sources WITHOUT putting it up for debate was bordering on censorship. Certainly if you maintain they say the same thing then the sources can't hurt.

ps- I changed the debate because you hadn't replied to the query in a week and it appears you agreed. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Silence_and_consensus) Lihaas (talk) 17:47, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

The introduction description for Nazism needs an edit

"Among the key elements of Nazism were anti-parliamentarism, ethnic nationalism...." Since this refers to Nazism of the past, and not the specific Green Nazi Party of today which encourages ethnic, and not just German, nationalism, the phrase "ethnic nationalism" needs to be replaced with "German nationalism". The article is semi-protected and I am unable to edit it myself. LeobenConoy (talk) 05:04, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I didn't specify it clearly enough, because although Austrians, Sudetens, Danzigers, etc, were not technically "German", I replaced "ethnic nationalism" with "Pan-Germanism". LeobenConoy (talk) 05:09, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Foreign reaction

"In his early years, Hitler also greatly admired the United States of America. In Mein Kampf, he praised the United States for its race-based anti-immigration laws and for the subordination of the “inferior” black population. According to Hitler, America was a successful nation because it kept itself “pure”[ citation needed ] of “lesser races”[ citation needed ]. Nevertheless, his view of the United States became more negative as time passed."

According to USAToday at http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2003-09-14-book-usat_x.htm and Wikipedia's article on Hitler's Secret Book, Hitler is said to have changed his mind concerning the United States sometime after Mein Kampf. The text I quoted refers to his feelings in context with Mein Kampf, i.e. "In Mein Kampf... according to Hitler...." which is not true according to the Wikipedia article on Hitler's Secret Book (Zweites Buch). I don't know if it's appropriate for someone new such as myself to pull out the material in that section of Nazism's article although it is nonfactual. It needs to be rewritten to reflect Hitler's feelings towards the US before he learned of US eugenics programs, and then to reflect Hitler's feelings after. LeobenConoy (talk) 05:41, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Post WWII Nazism

I was surprised by the exclusive focus on Nazim during (and just before) WWII, as the term Nazism is still frequently used as it does exist now. At a minimum there should be one section on this with links off to relevant main articles on this topic. Mathmo ^Talk 02:51, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

WWII

This section is long, opinionated and has litttle to do with "Nazism". I would recommend the following change:

In 1939, in the midst of the Nazi era, World War II began. Six years later, the Nazi regime came to an end with Germany's defeat in the war. The Party was declared a criminal organisation and Nazism was outlawed as a political ideology in Germany, as well as forms of iconography and propaganda from the Nazi era. Nevertheless, neo-Nazis continue to operate in Germany and several other countries. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.42.218.74 (talk) 20:30, 14 September 2008 (UTC)