Talk:Joseph Stalin

Not neutral

This article is too anticommunist and “anti-Stalin,” I think we need a more neutral point of view. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kubanik (talk • contribs) 12:52, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, I believe a "Neutrality is disputed" banner is heavily warranted by this article sheer bias against Stalin.Metallurgist (talk) 02:40, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

The Neutrality dispute is purely POV, is it disputed that Stalin ordered atrocities such as Katyn? Its like saying that theres bias against Hitler or Mao. Bugguyak (talk) 21:38, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

religious talk is POV, your statement about satan does not belong here.ㄏㄨㄤㄉㄧ (talk) 02:48, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Of course it POV thats the point of the above discussion, but I removed it and replaced it with a similar analogous personality. Bugguyak (talk) 13:40, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

i have not even stated whether i support the PROC or ROC yet you jump to conclusions. comparing satan to a human being is totally wrong, considering the fact that we do not know satan's personality, whether he is evil, or just the absence of good, just as darkness is the abcense of light, and coldness the absence of heat.ㄏㄨㄤㄉㄧ (talk) 15:27, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

hitler was a christian, and stalin studying to become a priest, i think they learned alot of mass murder and genocide from the bible, as it says god supported the mass murder of innocents, and entire races in the old testament......ㄏㄨㄤㄉㄧ (talk) 15:33, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

and it is also clear that the killings, mass murder, and genocide that stalin, hitler, and god ordered in the old testament of the bible, were deliberate and intentional, while all deaths resulting from mao were a result of failed economic policy.ㄏㄨㄤㄉㄧ (talk) 15:34, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

This article, like most on controversial issues in Wikipedia, is somewhat of a disgrace. Rather than exhibiting a NPOV, it exhibits a POV which oscillates, often sentence by sentence between pro and anti-Stalinist sentiments. For an example of what an encyclopedic entry on Stalin should look like, read the entry in Britannica (or, if you lack access to that, you can search Google for an Encarta entry on Stalin). In the future, I will be avoiding reading Wikipedia articles on dictators (especially those whom ruled countries which still look up to such people: you don't see "controversial" tags on the Wikipedia entry on Hitler, for instance). BFBbrown (talk) 19:28, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

OK guys, apparently its too difficult for some people to recognize a NEUTRAL article,so for this reason ive taken the liberty of rewording the entire first section, and posting a draft here: http://pastebin.ca/1213777

I can cite relatively biased sources to show the opinions of "supporters of stalin", for those that will call that point out, but i dont think its nessecary considering people have already psoted them on this talk page.

Really its not that hard to make an article unbiased, you can still mention all the points AGANST stalin that you want, all we ask is that you take into consideration the other side of the story, and at least allow some degree of credibility to the Stalinist support. The article mentions extremely biased facts and figures, and uses incriminating words like "Regime" or "Dictator", and gives opinions of 1 specific group of "historians", without even mentioning, yet alone lending a degree of credibility to another more, "Stalin Friendly" camp.

Just re word the article a bit, water down some of the anti stalin opinions, and stop setting figures such as "millions dead" in stone, when they cant be proven, and anyone who tries can be rebutted with equally sufficient evidence.

Im not asking you make a hero of stalin, or even attempt to remove his "villian" status, just tone down the stalin hate just mabe 1 or 2 notches, and leave some food for thought.Valeofruin (talk) 17:18, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

If anything, this article has a pro-Stalin bias. Compare with Hitler where the number of deaths he was responsible for is stated clearly in the lead (whereas here it's buried deep in the text). Being 'neutral' does not mean ignoring facts which some find uncomfortable or giving equal weight to fringe views. The controversy on the death toll you refer to is one between killing 10 million or 20 million people. Either way the phrase "millions dead" is still appropriate. Similarly the words "regime" and "dictator" are accurate descriptions, accepted by all but a minority of scholars. Seriously, there is a "Hitler Friendly" camp out there but that does not mean that the Wiki article on Hitler needs to present their "side" of the story. The same applies here.radek (talk) 17:32, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Now correct me if im wrong, but last i checked neutrality did in fact require one to take into account all sides of the story.

Suggesting that somehow ignoring the arguements presented by one party is neutrality is simply ignorant. No offense, but mabe you could use a dose of neutrality yourself.

Also the arguement isnt between 10 and 20 million, the arguement is that you cant prove that millions died under Stalin, noone can. The maximum number of deaths possible is disputed between 10 and 20 million perhaps, but the dispute here, make no mistake is whether or not Stalin even killed half a million, or if he even killed anyone at all!

In addition Regime, and Dictator are accepted by all but a minority of scholars, this is true, however the majority of scholars all stand on the same side of this issue, they always have and always will, the other side so happends to be the minority, its not as though theres been any compromise between parties to draw this conclusion. And to put your suspiscion to rest, i would present the same case if the Hitler article came into question.

The reality is the Wiki community picked 1 side of this issue to stand on, the side of the majority, and COMPLETELY shut out the voice of the minority. Thats not neutrality, its just wrong. Valeofruin (talk) 03:22, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Documentable "Estimates of the Scale of Stalinist Repression"

"Victims of the Soviet Penal System in the Pre-war Years:A First Approach on the Basis of Archival Evidence"

This contains an extensive and detailed overview of the soviet prison system and its populations, and of course what % of whichever group was imprisoned.

Link: http://www.etext.org/Politics/Staljin/Staljin/articles/AHR/AHR.html

Its one thing to quote paid western writers and their fantastical lies, its another to actually look at Soviet archives and see, as clear as whats printed, the numbers and/or information regarding these disputed subjects...

I strongly urge anyone with an interested in this subject or the article to take the time and read the information I've linked to, it is very well referenced and based on Soviet sources.

(24.64.86.167 (talk) 00:08, 7 April 2008 (UTC))

Stalin in the arts

The paragraph is about texts, what about images and movies?Xx236 (talk) 10:25, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

A completely biased article

This article is completely biased. It is just a a bullshit rather than an encyclopedic article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Celikbilge (talk • contribs) 20:49, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Bad Grammar

Under the family section: 'this (as well as...) were' should be replaced by 'this (as well as...) was'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Andrew schaug (talk • contribs) 10:15, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Removing the dispute tag

Frankly, without anyone caring to discuss why they feel the article is "bullshit" or "anti-Stalin," I'm inclined to remove the dispute tag.  RGTraynor  17:33, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

• I'm not. We all know Stalin wasn't a bright and shiny happy person, but the emphasis on his crimes is overwhelming the rest of the content about his life. --Hemlock Martinis (talk) 20:42, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

The problem with this article is that parts of it, including the intro, read like a 1950s New York Times article. There is definitely a point of view present, and that is of a western view. The fact of the matter is that in parts of the world, particularly Russia, Stalin is remembered as a man who had many great accomplishments along with the atrocities. He is not viewed as a menace and a mass murderer, he's viewed as a strong, iron fisted leader who transformed a poor peasant nation into a superpower in a relatively short period of time and liberated Europe from the Nazis. His policies, while cruel, were necessary for the future of the great soviet empire. In other words the ends justified the means, in a non-western point of view, something that most people in the west can't seem to come to grips with after living a lifetime around anti-communist "evil empire" propaganda. His accomplishments should be given equal weight, and his wrong doings shouldn't be exaggerated. One example, the section "Number of victims" seems completely unnecessary. A section based entirely on people speculating on how many people died under Stalin's rule is ridiculously POV. It could easily be summed up in one or two sentences citing the minimum and maximum, and the most common average. Sceneshock (talk) 02:50, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

And you can add the Holodomor section to that list of POV portions (though it's already tagged). The idea that it was an engineered famine to wipe out the Ukrainian people is a highly contested claim, it certainly shouldn't be the first sentence of the subject as if that is most accepted scholarly view. I suggest you (anyone reading this actually) reads the holodomor article thoroughly to get a good idea of what to put in that section, because it is quite a controversial subject, yet here we are saying "Stalin did it because Stalin is evil" in his very own biography.

One must wonder about that. Stalin wanted more than anything else to industrialize and further develop the Soviet Union. Why on Earth would he attempt to destroy the so called "bread basket" of the nation in the midst of this transformation? Sceneshock (talk) 03:21, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, a question that deserves a serious answer. What was he thinking? Fred Talk 23:31, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Like any complex historical event, it resists simple explanation. Our article on collectivization in the USSR has some background. For the most part, the roots of the Holodomor are thought to lie in the Party's desire to collectivize agriculture, which met with active and passive resistance from the peasantry, resulting in harsh food requisitions and other reprisals by the Bolsheviks against the "bread basket" of the USSR. In this sense, the motivation fits quite snugly with Stalin's desire to industrialize and further develop the Soviet Union, as collectivization was the ends which supposedly justified the means. MastCell ^Talk 23:54, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

In this article, we're given one paragraph in the Holodomor section, and that one paragraph heavily focuses on and seems to favor the genocide theory, displaying it as if it's the most domonant and widely accepted theory, while giving no mention to other more widely accepted theories. Put yourself in the position of someone who has never heard of Holodomor before. You get to that section, and the first thing you read is "The Holodomor famine is sometimes referred to as the Ukrainian Genocide". Then it goes on not to inform the reader of any facts about the famine, but whether or not it's considered a genocide. So that's it, your lesson on Stalin and the holodomor. How..informative? Balanced? Maybe I'm just "clueless" as another editor so maturely suggested, but that doesn't sound very fair or balanced to me, to suggest something highly contested like that and not actually elaborate on the issue. Instead of saying there is a theory that some people believe and some don't, why not give brief mention of the most widely accepted theories in a neutral and balanced mannr (ie. why they do or don't consider it a genocide), and let the readers decide for themselves? Sceneshock (talk) 00:41, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

It's rather curious that someone removed the tag because there was "no discussion in a month", but failed to actually make a reply and discuss any of the points brought up by various users on the discussion page. How can we have discussion if the opposing side refuses to discuss? Sceneshock (talk) 23:19, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, perhaps because you're echoing the same pro-Stalinist points that we've been subject to by a long line of sockpuppets and single-purpose accounts on this page? "His policies, while cruel, were necessary for the future of the great soviet empire" - you sound exactly like Jacob Peters (talk · contribs), in fact. And you're a brand-new account. What do you expect us to think? The chance is exactly zero that the article will be rewritten to the pro-Soviet POV. If you have anything else to suggest, please do, otherwise the tag will go again. - Merzbow (talk) 23:32, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm not pro-Stalinist. However I do think the pro-Stalinist point of view deserves fair mention considering how widespread it is. That's what NPOV is, all popular point of views should be expressed fairly. The article doesn't need to be re-written, but it needs to be renovated quite badly and the POV tag shouldn't be removed until both sides are satisfied. And I'm not a sock of anybody, you can get an admin to check if you want, but I really don't appreciate the blind and baseless accusations. Sceneshock (talk) 00:14, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

"That's what NPOV is, all popular point of views" - hmm, no, this is what NPOV says: "NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a reliable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each." We precisely do not write history articles based on "popular point of views", we base them on what academics say. If you have changes to suggest backed by cites from Professors of History, please list them here. - Merzbow (talk) 00:38, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

You just quoted NPOV for me, unless you're suggesting that there are no reliable sources anywhere in the world that are pro-Stalin (or at the very least, not anti-Stalin) then your argument is moot. Sceneshock (talk) 00:53, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Maybe there are, but you as of yet have not presented any. - Merzbow (talk) 01:13, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Doesn't matter if I personally supply links. They exist, and they aren't presented in this article, therefore the POV tag will stay until the article is neutral and presents all relevant points of view. And there are also dozens of other POV issues that I've already pointed out. Sceneshock (talk) 22:57, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

So you assert the existence of reliable pro-Stalinist material, but feel no need to actually prove the existence of such. Good luck with that. - Merzbow (talk) 22:59, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't need to prove their existence any more than I need to prove the existence of the sun. The point is that this article is a POV mess, and that's not even entirely related to having pro-Stalin sources. Stop removing the tag, if this article were neutral you wouldn't have a ton of people complaining that it's not. Sceneshock (talk) 23:03, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

No. Take this advice from someone who actually added a POV tag to a section of this article: you present a credible argument, based on sources, as to which part of this article is slanted in any way. For example, if there are academic views that are not being represented, we will have to accept that the article is unbalanced. Your point about how he is remembered is different - I am perfectly willing to include a few citations on the cult of nostalgia for him in certain sections of the former USSR, particularly in Georgia. But that has nothing to do with NPOV. --Relata refero (disp.) 09:03, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

If we are going to talk about the "good" that Stalin accomplished for the benefit of Russia, then we also need to point out that Hitler restored a sense of German nationalization, sought to correct the absurd and harsh provisions of the Treaty of Versailles, and made the trains run on time.

John Paul Parks (talk) 12:42, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

No, this is not the Hitler article. Stalin's good and bad decisions are both appropriate for elucidation in this article without having to give equal time to other world leaders.

Tell us about Stalin

Give us helpful information about him not everyting he did wrong.Goblyglook (talk) 00:39, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

I'd be happy to. Please check out the links I'll post.

The complete works of J.V. Stalin http://www.marx2mao.com/Stalin/Index.html

Stalin and the struggle for democratic reform, the *extremely* well referenced and indepth look at Stalin's struggle and failure to enforce democratic processes on the Soviet Union. http://clogic.eserver.org/2005/furr.html

What about Stalin? In defence of Joseph Stalin (detailing the different aspects of Stalin and his contributions to Soviet society - doubled life expectancy, universal education and healthcare for example. http://www.etext.org/Politics/MIM/faq/stalin.html

A look at Stalin, and the people who testify to his modesty and simple lifestyle. Basically a debunking of the cult of personality myth. http://www.mltranslations.org/Britain/StalinBB.htm

The book titled "Another view of Stalin" again, extremely well referenced. http://www.plp.org/books/Stalin/book.html

A personal account of one man's feelings towards Stalin, very interesting http://azeri.org/Azeri/az_latin/latin_articles/latin_text/latin_73/eng_73/73_stalin_cult.html

Stalin - An emerging view (note the references at the bottom) http://www.visualstatistics.net/Catastrophe/Golden%20Years/Golden%20Years.htm

An extremely interesting transcript of Stalin and Sergei Eisenstein on the Film Ivan the Terrible http://revolutionarydemocracy.org/rdv3n2/ivant.htm

http://www.historycooperative.org/journals/ahr/110.5/goldman.html http://www.visualstatistics.net/Catastrophe/Stalin%20Biography/Stalin's%20Biography.htm

Chairman Mao on Joseph Stalin's place in history http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/selected-works/volume-7/mswv7_467.htm

Lies concerning the history of the USSR http://www.etext.org/Politics/Staljin/Staljin/articles/lies/lies.html

Enver Hoxha's recount of his meetings with Stalin http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/hoxha/works/stalin/intro.htm

I sincerely hope that the people interested in the validity and balance of the article will look carefully at the links provided, the absurd suggestions about Stalin 'killing' 'as many as' '50million people' and soforth are beyond laughable. USSR's population was about 170million in the mid 30s considering the break-neck pace of industrialization, shortage of labour, etc the ideas about so-called death tolls are unrealistic at best.

When a nation goes from plowing the fields with it's bare hands to increasing the total size of their industrial base by 450% in under 5 years, from fighting with swords and rifles to mass producing more then 100,000 artillery, 75,000 anti-air units, and more then 170,000 tanks and armoured fighting vehicals while the western half of the nation has already been burned to the ground twice over, and I couldn't even begin to note the social aspect of it, the universities the healthcare, mass literacy efforts...you really need to take a closer look at the reasons beyond these and many other monumental achievements - Stalin is a good place to start. ;)

(24.64.86.167 (talk) 03:05, 18 April 2008 (UTC))

Belarus a gain from Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact?

In the 1945-1953, the article refers to the Pact as the "treaty which partitioned Poland (giving the Soviet Union what is now Belarus)", but this is not entirely correct. Firstly, it gave the Soviet Union much of modern Ukraine and Lithuania as well, as secondly, not all of Belarus was previously part of Poland. —Preceding unsigned comment added by AseemShukla (talk • contribs) 23:38, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

None - Position created in 1922?

On the right side of the page where it says General Secretary of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union and where it says Preceeded by, it says None - Position created in 1922. This is not accurate, as Vladimir Lenin was the first leader of the Soviet Union, from 1922 to his death in 1924. Would someone like to change this please? Thanks.

71.116.23.185 (talk) 05:48, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

An ignorant person's question about Stalin.....

Hello people! I'm sorta new to the History thing, and realised that I need to know more! Stalin has always been an idol for me. But my question is, and this may sound stupid, did Stalin actually kill anyone personally himself? If so, how many? Thanks in advance! 84.70.124.170 (talk) 18:21, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

He killed at least one person personally, or at least arranged his assasination, Stalin felt threatened politically by a fellow member of the Communist party (I can't remember his name though) and had him assasinated, Although you could say that Stalin was responsible for every execution in the Soviet Union between 1924 and 1953 because vast lists of criminals who were to be executed were compiled and Stalin's signature was required for each list. I personally believe Joseph Stalin was worst human being who ever lived but that's just my opinion-Ted Fox 18:00, 26 June 2008 (GMT)

The person I think you refer to was Sergei Kirov, party leader in Leningrad (now St Petersburg). The most commonly-given reason is that Stalin saw Kirov as a potential threat to his leadership.

Regardless of this, the question "how many people did he kill personally?" is irrelevant. How many people did Hitler, Mao Zedong, or anyone kill personally? The issue is whether the subject was willing and able to bring about the deaths of millions of people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.88.25.200 (talk) 00:25, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

the deaths caused by mao zedong were the result of failed economic policy, not mass murder and genocideㄏㄨㄤㄉㄧ (talk) 15:41, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Would you care explain how the mass murders conducted under Mao's suppression of counter revolutionaries was a failed economic policy?Bugguyak (talk) 21:39, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Feel free to take this off-topic talk to your respective talk pages, ladies and/or gentlemen. This is not a forum. Jennavecia ^(Talk) 00:30, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Dictator

There is not a scholarly consensus concerning the use of this label. Not a single Russian scholar during the USSR described Stalin as such. Nor do present day Russian sources. [1] Some of the historians that are cited to describe Stalin as a dictator do not specialize in the history of Russia and are therefore not competent to analyze such a subject. Needless to say, the history of Russia written by Russian citizens is superior to anything foreigners can write. These[ [2] Russian scholars describe Stalin as:

• politician, Hero of Socialist Labor (1939), the Hero of Soviet Union (1945), Marshal of the Soviet Union (1943), the Generalissimo of Soviet Union (1945).

• Georgian Bolshevik, from the end of 1930s a Russian statesman, military leader of Russian people during Great Patriotic War.

• Soviet party leader and statesman

Krasna (talk) 23:04, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

"the history of Russia written by Russian citizens is superior to anything foreigners can write." I'm not sure you're familiar with fundamental Wikipedia policies such as WP:RS, WP:V, and WP:NPOV. Perhaps a review is in order? - Merzbow (talk) 02:20, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Stalin - Okhrana double agent?

Is there any proof that Stalin was a double agent, beyond the speculation of some historians? Stalin was frequently accused of being a stooge for the Tsar, mostly to discredit him (he had enemies in the Party). These accusations are just conspiracy theories, and there are LOTS of conspiracy theories surrounding Stalin and Communism. - — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kurzon (talk • contribs)

Of course hard evidence will be hard to come across. Stalin had thirty years to purge Okhrana archives. He was very conscious of his reputation, and recreated history to his favor, to such an extent that he took credit for starting and leading almost every important strike or uprising, when in fact he did nothing of the sort. In such a situation, the "speculation" of reputable historians such as Edward Smith, is a legitimate source, and should be included if prefaced with 'a number of historians believe", which is exactly as it was written. Therefore, I will contine to insist un including the Okhrana connection.E10ddie (talk) 15:20, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Wrong Birth Date

Ok,so yeah his birth date is wrong it is december 21, 1879. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Platsrul (talk • contribs) 13:59, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, we either get an explanation or I will change it, I see no refs to back the assertion of this different date. Thanks, SqueakBox 14:07, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Russian Wikipedia states that factual date is 18 December, but official (which existed in all his documents, possibly related with delay in birth registration by parents) is 21 December. All Soviet encyclopedias cite 21 December and he was soviet leader... So I think it would be good to include also 21 December with small explanation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eglekuc (talk • contribs) 09:54, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Hypotheses, rumors, and misconceptions about Stalin

After seeing the previous section in the talk page and recalling some previous discussions and some text for some reason deleted from the article, I decided it is necessary to have the section "Hypotheses, rumors, and misconceptions about Stalin" to present the most popular and well referenced "theories" about Stalin, with the purpose of keeping the bio as streamlined and factual as possible.

By the way, the article has grown enormously long and detailed, especially after recent additions of numerous minute detail, like, about each and every exile and escape of young Stalin (I guess from the book Young Stalin :-). IMO it is time to refactor this page according to wikipedia:Summary style. `'Míkka>t 17:31, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

To label something as "misconception" you need reliable sources claiming this to be a misconception. So far I do not see any.Biophys (talk) 18:05, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Should we move the biography of Stalin's revolutionary years to a separate article, and replace it with a more concise summary?

NPOV dispute, tags?

My reading above seem to suggest there is a valid concern over NPOV in this article,and I don't like that some editors are using the old "sock" defense to deflect makign a good faith effort to address and discuss the conerns. On the other hand I'd like to editor protesting to prosent some specific and concrete examples of the problems and suggested text to remedy them. If its substantial changes a sand-box might be a good idea. If the editor presents credible concerns the tag should be restored until consensus is clear on it.Giovanni33 (talk) 06:13, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I strongly doubt that the editor in question is Peters, it doesn't sound like him at all. The bit Merzbow quotes does a little, but otherwise, Peters wasn't really this articulate - or clueless. --Relata refero (disp.) 09:03, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I appreciate the personal attack, a well indicator of your own intellectual depth. Sceneshock (talk) 18:09, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Oy, I meant that you didn't appear to have a clue about how things work here, a difference from Peters. That's all. --Relata refero (disp.) 19:15, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that is why I didn't file an RFCU after seeing his further responses. (But Moreschi did, so we'll see where that goes). - Merzbow (talk) 19:04, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps you (Giovanni) could articulate what the POV concerns are, as a first step toward addressing them? MastCell ^Talk 22:53, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

How could I articulate the POV concerns, if those have not been communicated to me? I'm not alleging any POV concerns (there may well be real issues, I don't know without carefully reading through the article). But, apparently someone thinks there is, or they would not be edit warring over the NPOV tag, so I want to hear from them.Giovanni33 (talk) 09:33, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

His concerns are stated above in the post stamped 00:41, 25 May 2008 (UTC). --Relata refero (disp.) 19:15, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Introduction

Should not the introduction mention the initial collaboration with the Nazi's, prior to switching sides onced attacked?

(As is mentioned later in the article.)

91.125.24.156 (talk) 16:38, 26 May 2008 (UTC)TPP

Julian vs Gregorian calender

In my edits to Stalin's years as a revolutionary I gave dates in the old Julian calender, which ran 13 days behind the Gregorian calender. Russia did not adopt the modern Gregorian calender until 1918. This is how Simon Sebag Montefiore chose to list dates in his biography of Stalin, which I have referenced. If anyone has noticed any mistakes here, please correct them.Kurzon (talk) 11:39, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Incorrect spelling of last name

Is his last name not spelled "Dzhugashvili", not Jugashvili. I thought "Dzhugashvili" was the more common spelling.

A history on a groundbreaking artist of today.

this article may be long but it is very informing. the article should be seperated into Stalin's article and one for Stalinist Russia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Iloveyouegg (talk • contribs) 23:38, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Stalin's Father

There's nothing that proves this picture was Stalin's father. Stalin refused to confirm it.

I'll remove it Seektrue (talk) 13:23, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

This photo is described by Simon Sebag Montefiore as the official photograph of Vissarion Jughashvili.

I have put it back.Kurzon (talk) 13:06, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Montefiore specifically said that Stalin refused to confirm that this was his father. He never said that this was the official photograph. Seektrue (talk) 07:50, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Kurzon, there is nothin that proves that thsi was Stalin's father nor was it the "official photograph"..this photo would be more appropriate in Beso's article not here —Preceding unsigned comment added by Seektrue (talk • contribs) 11:10, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps Stalin refused to confirm Vissarion was his father, but that does not mean this photo isn't one of Vissarion hismelf. These are two different issues.Kurzon (talk) 16:00, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't matter; there there's no evidence that confirms this was Beso. Only speculation. if you want to place the photo; you can't say Stalin's father under it.Seektrue (talk) 18:12, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

In Young Stalin, the caption under this photo says:

"Dubious parent: the official image of 'Crazy Beso' Djugashvili, cobbler, alcoholic, wife-and child-beater. Stalin refused to confirms this was his father. Jealousy drove Beso mad."

The wording of this caption clearly states that this is a photograph of Vissarion Jugashvili. Whether or not he is Stalin's biological father is another thing, and indeed Montefiore suggests several possible true fathers.

The wording states that this is the "official" image, which could mean different things. It is not accurate to place the photo and say that this was Stalin's father under it. Another caption should be placed.Seektrue (talk) 21:49, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

• I think it is important to indicate that there are doubts about the image. I do not like the clutter it creates but we have to indicate the problems Alex Bakharev (talk) 14:23, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Ok I compromised; how about saying in the caption Seektrue (talk) 11:42, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Name

Isn't his name spelled Josef? This is the first time I have seen it spelled with a "ph". Please do not say there is no difference because I can only assume he would disagree with that statement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.254.228.242 (talk) 10:21, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

He would disagree? Unless he could read or write English, he would have no basis upon which to disagree. As it is, his name was originally written in Cyrllic text. To be intelligible to us, it needs to be transliterated into English characters, and ultimately, the manner of doing so is up to us. John Paul Parks (talk) 05:02, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Stalin's name is transliterated from Cyrillic text, so "Josef" is a valid spelling. "Iosif" is actually closer to the Russian pronunciation, but the English-speaking world prefers to call him "Joseph".Kurzon (talk) 23:05, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi! I just want to know..Despite of his birth sir name is dugashvilli ...why his sir name is called Stalin..Is it his russian name or he just don't want to know that he is not a russian...? che (talk) 16:03, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

He changed his surname to Stalin, it comes from the word "Stal", which means "Steel" in Russian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Volk2108 (talk • contribs) 17:03, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Rumours

There are persistent rumours that Stalin was a right-wing secret Police agent. The Tsarist secret Police seem to have arranged Stalin's numerous easy escapes. See Edward Ellis Smith and Solzhenytsin, who both referred to the rumours. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.4.21 (talk) 09:27, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Edward Ellis Smith wrote "The Young Stalin" in the late 60s, when the Cold War was still raging and Russia was a closed, secretive country. Today, the Cold War is over and Russia has opened up some of its secret records, and these records revealed that Stalin was never an Okhrana agent.

The world is full of "rumors" and conspiracy theories. An encyclopedia should dedicate itself to verifiable facts.Kurzon (talk) 12:55, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Smith

See Edward Ellis Smith's "The Young Stalin", 1967 or 1968. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.139.211.191 (talk) 10:19, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Middle

Stalin's middle name is usually given as "Vissarionovich". Sometimes, it was given as "Vissarionov". This seems to sound more old-fashioned in Russian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.151.253.210 (talk) 10:09, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Economic Achievements?

I question the economic achievements claimed for Stalin's rule. Tsarist Russia was in 1914 (I believe, and it could be verified) the 4th-largest European economy and certainly a fairly-developed one. It wasn't a backward agrarian nation; its agriculture wasn't efficient, but the hostile climate would have been one reason. Ukraine was an exception, fertile and agriculturally well-developed, following reforms under Stolypin which unfortunately had not time to take full effect before the Revolution.

In Stalin's economic program, only certain basic industries such as steel were developed. The main (almost the only) sector developed was production of armaments - a questionable achievement on moral grounds. Under Stalin the USSR ceased to be self-sufficient in food in spite of a general lowering of the standard of living. It may or may not be coincidence that PR China went through an almost identical experience under Mao.

Light (?) relief - Q: What is the best known Russian brand name? A: Kalashnikov. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.88.25.200 (talk) 00:36, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I think you need to check your "facts"... 74.92.98.73 (talk) 15:01, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Mother Name

We've got to mention the mother's surname name Geladze; it has to be known at the childhood part Seektrue (talk) 11:16, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Numbers do not coordinate with each other...

Holomodor, the official number from previously closed soviet archives is 3.2 to 3.5 million.

One modern calculation that uses demographic data including that available from formerly closed Soviet archives narrows the losses to about 3.2 million or, allowing for the lack of the data precision, 3 million to 3.5 million.[7][72][73][1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

Also, official figures from the Soviet Demographics page should be used, and the number of deaths should categorized appropriatly

26.6 million : Deaths from the WW2 10-15 milion : deaths from natural causes, famine and executions. This number is also taken from a calculation based on the numbers from the Soviet demographics page.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Soviet_Union

It would also be nice that estimated numbers be cited as estimates and official numbers be cited as official. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.94.30.240 (talk) 05:24, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

[3], section "Deportation"

The Romanian (sometimes called Moldovans) people from Basarabia were also deported to Siberia, Kazakhstan, and other areas. Please modify. OIandezu (talk) 16:54, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Georgian names

In the childhood section of the biography I changed the names of Stalin's parents to their original Georgian pronounciations in lieu of their Russian equivalents. If we choose not to use the English equivalents of their names, I believe we should use their originals. After all, if we choose to refer to Yekaterina II Velikaya as Catherine the Great, we might as well refer to Stalin's mother as "Catherine Geladze".Kurzon (talk) 01:13, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Appointment as General Secretary

We've got those two paragraphs under rise to power

On April 3, 1922, Stalin was made general secretary of the Central Committee of the All-Russian Communist Party (Bolsheviks), a post that he subsequently built up into the most powerful in the country. It has been claimed that he initially attempted to decline accepting the post, but was refused. This position was seen to be a minor one within the party (Stalin was sometimes referred to as "Comrade Card-Index" by fellow party members) but, when combined with personal leadership over the Orgburo and with an ally (Kaganovich) heading the organizational Registration and Distribution Department of the Central Committee, actually had potential as a power base as it allowed Stalin to fill the party with his allies.

and

In 1922, with the aid of Lenin and Kamenev, Stalin was appointed General Secretary of the Central Committee. This post gave him the power to appoint his supporters to key positions within the government and the Party. It also brought the secret police under his control.

I think merging these two paragraphs is not a bad idea so something like:

In 1922, with the aid of Lenin and Kamenev, Stalin was appointed General Secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party. This position was seen to be a minor one (Stalin was sometimes referred to as "Comrade Card-Index" by fellow party members). Combined with the leadership over the Orgburo, however, this position had a potential power base as it allowed him to appoint his supporters to key positions within the government and party.

any feedback? Seektrue (talk) 07:14, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

This was my fault. I was reworking this section, but then abandoned my work for a while, so that's why there was redundant text.Kurzon (talk) 00:19, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Length

This article is over 150k. That's really long. Has there been any consideration in trimming or summary style forking? At the very least, additions of further subsections, as some of the sections are really long, specifically the 'Early years as a Marxist revolutionary, 1899–1917' section. Jennavecia ^(Talk) 18:14, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I'd hate to move the biographical sections to sub-articles and replace them with summaries. In my experience summaries and expanded sub-articles tend to grown inconsistent with each other over time.Kurzon (talk) 00:16, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

What about adding some additional subheading to at least break up the very long sections, such as the early years. Jennavecia ^(Talk) 14:04, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Gori (Stalin's birthplace) is in Georgia, not in Tiflis as stated in the article

Tiflis is the capital of Georgia, a distance of about 50 miles from Gori. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Azalfoldi (talk • contribs) 23:59, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Tbilisi is the capital of Georgia. It was known as Tiflis from 1847 to 1917, and was the centre of Tiflis Governorate, which was one of the guberniyas of the Russian Empire. In 1918, the Russian Empire became the Democratic Republic of Georgia, then the Georgian Soviet Socialist Republic in 1921. It was not until 1991 that independence from the Soviet Union was gained, making Georgia and independent country.

Stalin's youth was from 1878 to 1899, thus when it was known as Tiflis Governorate. I have, however, un-piped the link, meaning it was formatted as [[Tiflis Governorate|Tiflis]], leaving it to display as simply "Tiflis". With the pipe (|Tiflis) now removed, the full name is displayed. Hopefully that clears up any confusion. Jennavecia ^(Talk) 02:19, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Footnote 86, Stalin's place in a poll of the greatest Russians

It would appear that Alexander Nevsky has passed Stalin and will remain so. Perhaps the sentence leading up to it, Stalin topped a poll of who was the greatest Russian? or words to that effect, needs editing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.144.142.39 (talk) 21:44, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Stalin's origin

It states that Stalin's father was an Ossetian, which is just one of several rumours and should not be stated as a fact, but rather moved to the end section. The source Wiki cites, a book by Simon Montefiori also states thats its just one of the theories of Dzhugashvili family roots, Georgians have many surnames with this root i.e Dzhugeli, Dzhugaani etc, so it should state 'born to Georgian father who was a cobbler" and in later sections discuss different theories of his origin, as there are more than just Ossetian —Preceding unsigned comment added by Biographyspot (talk • contribs) 11:52, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

There's more reasons to believe his father was Ossetian, many put forward by writers, so it's not just a "rumour", but I agree that it's not an established fact either. Stalin's ethnicy is unsure. Grey Fox (talk) 19:34, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

What languages did Stalin speak?

Does anybody know? Did he speak Georgian besides Russian? Grey Fox (talk) 19:34, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes he spoke it and also tried to learn German and English at various points in his life but i don't know if he could understand it or read it, he did ask for regular German and English newspapers while leader. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.228.24.18 (talk) 08:24, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Social Services Section, Fake Citations

The Social Services section is made up claims that are contradicted by research, and the sources used say the exact opposite of what is claimed in is written in this section.

And the reasearch is contradicted by more research on the opposite side of the board.

The SOcial services section is perhaps the fairest thing allowed to Stalin thus far on wikipedia. He was twisted into a brutal dictator, but at least someone had the dignity to add some of the positive accomplishments achieved under his command. Valeofruin (talk) 04:08, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Nobel Peace Prize Consideration

Many historians have remarked that Stalin deserved consideration for the nobel peace prize as he was instrumental in bringing peace during the cold war by delivering missles to Cuba, by sending tanks into Hungary, bring peace to the middle east and for creating restorative justice programs for Ukranian youth in Siberia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aswani316 (talk • contribs) 16:49, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Name one.75.111.161.156 (talk) 03:12, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

I believe the above was meant as a sarcastic reflection on the present state of this article.radek (talk) 03:33, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

Why the hell is there not a number of death's commited by Stalin in his intro?

Look, there has been reports that under his command, 10 to 60 million people died under his name. In Adolf Hitlers intro they state how under his command 6 people Jews and what not have perished, why not discuss the amount of people that Stalin killed? Honeslty give it up, the general consensus on this man is that he was a nut, with the likes of Hitler land what not - an unarguable, ojbjective fact. Fourtyearswhat (talk) 02:49, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

How many bodies have eben unearthed? Not 10- 60 million thats for sure.

Also 60 million, come on, honestly?

We KNOW this figure CANT be true, its impossible, look and the census's in the soviet union, and in Ukraine, Stalin killing over 1/3rd of his population just doesnt make sense, the math proves otherwise.

from the demographics of the soviet union article, which included an accurate history of the population of the soviet union:

June 1941: 196,716,000* January 1946: 170,548,000*

that means the only major decline in sovet population in its almost century long history was during world war 2 during which:

at least 26,168,000 citizens were lost.

if you do the math on the growth trends after, were looking at (about) an additional 15 million fatalities in the soviet union.

out of this figure:

1,000,000 or more deaths have been attributed to the Holocaust and more specifically are JEWISH executions.

10,700,000 were Military deaths.

11,400,000 were wartime civilian casualties, most of which died, during the Nazi invasion, and the subsequent bombing and Nazi death raids.

This leaves us with a decline of 3,068,000, and about a maximum (give or take estimate, nothing solid) 18,068,000 unaccounted for casualties.

Now heres where we get a bit theoretical. Assuming the united states is free of its share of purging, the crude death rate in the united states in 2008 is 8.27, so lets call it 8 for good measure, using this as a map we can say about 8 out of every 1000 citizens will die at no direct fault of the government, then that leaves us with at least 1,573,728 deaths that in even the most civilised nation, in modern times with modern medicine, all these years later, would occur at no fault of the government.

albeit a shaky analysis, that cant really be backed by any solid historical figures, it shows that only during a war that claimed 23 million soviet lives, did the soviet population drop, and even during the most questionable and unstable times, the MAXIMUM number of people stalin could have possibly been responsible for is 15 million. Math has also been done to calculate the maximum reasonable number of "Holodomer" deaths.

When you take all this into consideration, and you throw the fact that they have yet to even uncover a smallest fraction of these supposed bodies, we see that mathematically, the possibility of stalin killing up to 60 million people becomes more and more farfetched.

In fact, the possibility of stalin killing even just 30 million, or 20 million becomes more and more farfetched.

td;dr You cant prove he killed that many people, physically or mathematcially. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Valeofruin (talk • contribs) 18:06, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Hopelessly POV

Number of killed hidden way down in the article (it took me awhile to find a mention), and everytime a statement which could be construed as critical is made it is qualified with "but others think otherwise" or "but he had no choice" or some other weasel-ness. Instead we get irrelevant and npov stuff like:

• "Stalin took part in streetfighting as a child; he was not afraid to challenge opponents who were much stronger than he"
• "Policies and ACCOMPLISHMENTS"
• under "Soviet secret service and intelligence" we get a discussion of what an able organizer Stalin was rather than what these secret services were used for
• The whole "Social Services" section
• "From 1946–1948 coalition governments comprising communists were elected in (Eastern Europe)" - obviously these were "coalition" in name only as it was the communists who had all the power.

And so on. I'm tired of looking at this.radek (talk) 03:45, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

I Absolutly Agree it appears this board is run by communist who wants nothing critical of the man even if they are facts we need mods & administrators in here ASAP to restore order ChesterTheWorm (talk) 19:38, 24 September 2008 (UTC) ChesterTheWorm

• This "board"? "Mods"? If you have improvements, make them; this is a wiki. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 20:02, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

"by communist who wants nothing critical of the man even if they are facts" - Well then, find a reliable source to prove what you are saying about Stalin, and insert them into the article, instead of complaining on the talk page. Also it's difficult to say how many he killed, as the figures range from 4-100 Million. Dzhugashvili (talk) 20:08, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

A lot of the "he was a great singer" and a bit of the other fawning in the lead is sourced to the book "Young Stalin" by Montefiore. This is a legitimate source. However I would like to remind the editors that there is a difference between an encyclopedia and a biography. Montefiore, as an author and a biographer can engage in what's essentially interpretation and speculation along the lines of "he earned the admiration of his teachers" and so on. An encyclopedia however should stick to observable and verifiable facts. Hence I've removed some of the more literary language.radek (talk) 20:16, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Its not Wikipedias Job to Critique Stalins Policy, Wiki is here to educate, from a neutral point of view. Wikipedia doesnt have a political agenda, and hence should have no interest in smearing Stalin, just explaining what happened, and the history, and yes ESPECIALLY in this case, the controversy surrounding it.

Wikipedia is here to spread interesting facts about stalin, encyclopedias do it all the time, this includes facts about his childhood and other such things. Wikipedia is not here to foreshadow, build any kind of legacy, or attempt to make anyone, look so completely heartless.

Im sorry if you think giving facts about young stalin, is nonsense, and i know you would much rather have a piece on how Stalin drowned kittens or some such thing, or an article that says nothing remotely pleasent about Stalin, but that would just make matter worse, it would just be wrong. By my own analysis though you are correct, that comments about the opinions of stalins teachers and such too should not belong in the article. However we should show some caution when removing such things, especially if they have a viable source attached to them, an example being if Stalin was actually SEEN fighting children larger then himself, and this can be supported by 1 or more Legit sources, why not keep it? It's a fun little tid bit, no harm in that, so long as its presented as a fact, (example: "On at least 4 known occasions Stalin was SEEN participating in school yard fights with children much larger then himself" vs. "As a child Stalin often challenge much larger boys to fistfights after school")

Again im not asking you take out all negative things about Stalin, that would be sheerly ignorant on my part, of course he made mistakes, extremely grave ones at that. What you must try to understand is where im coming from on this. All I ask is that we water down the language a bit, lend that minority some credibility. Can we not be skeptical, like investigators worth their salt? Is it to much to ask to clearly state the popular belief and compare it to the opposition? Is it too much to ask to tone down the wording just a bit?

Is it too much to ask to change things like "under stalins brutal regime millions died of starvation" etc etc. to something a bit more neutral and friendly, perhaps along the lines of "Stalins government is often accused of crimes, including murder. Some estimates place the death toll in the millions, wheras supporters of the Soviet leader have been known to deny the claims. (add further details to a new section dedicated to the arguements in support of stalin)."

Come how we already have articles on holodomer denial, would it really hurt to have a presence of such theories throughout the Stalin article? for neutralities sake?

As a bit of a Post Script I'd like to mention that some users anti- Communist biased in this discussion too is uncalled for. We're people just like you, our personal political beliefs are really detached from what the issue is here, Neutrality. As I said earlier, I would just as easily defend the Nazi's credibility if the Hitler article came into question. Attempting to discredit the challenge on the neutrality of this article because it was probably made by a communist, would be no different then you discrediting ones accountability, because they are say, Jewish, and attempting to challenge an article related to world war 2. It would simply be unfair. Everyone has a voice here, and noone "runs the boards" or any of that such non-sense.

Valeofruin (talk) 03:51, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Polish invasion in the intro

This should NOT be in the intro (it's too detailed)..it should be mentioned under WWII

"some historians believe Stalin contributed to starting World War II because of his secret agreement with Nazi Germany to carve up the nation of Poland, as part of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact of 1939. This led to the Soviet Union's invasion of Poland from the east later that same year, following Nazi Germany's invasion of western Poland."

Seektrue (talk) 23:11, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Notice how when a minority of Historians mentions a wild conspiracy theory, that works AGAINST Stalin it makes it into the intro, yet we still suffer this brutal neutrality debate because some people still refuse to allow equally accepted, yet pro- Stalin theories to have an influence on the article as well. Why not give Stalin a chance at a fair trial here?

That piece of off topic information being posted, probably under the wrong topic/ title, i can go on to say that i agree, it should be moved to the ww2 section, hopefully when someone finally decides to revamp this article *coughs*. Valeofruin (talk) 04:02, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Comparing articles

I invite anyone sitting at home, wondering exactly HOW this article could become more neutral, to check out the Wikipedia page on Mao Zedong, and compare criticism of his policy, which is viewed by a large following of historians as being just as bloody as Stalins, to the criticism presented in the Stalin article.

I believe this it of comparison will aid some in understanding just why this article has been so disputed for so long now, and what we can do to close this discussion, and have a fair, non-biased article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Valeofruin (talk • contribs) 17:36, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Attempt to falsify history

The user Radeksz attempts to falsify history by removing faccts which are supported by links to other lemmas inside Wikipedia. In this falsification he refuses to give links to sources that supprot his strange ideas. Falsification of history is the territory of dictators (as Stalin himself). Robvhoorn (talk) 22:24, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

• That's a pretty nasty way to express a difference of opinions. You inserted something starting with, "However, these historians forget to mention that...", which is an insertion of a non-neutral point of view, not supported by sources. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 23:05, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Since you bring up "other lemmas inside Wikipedia", please consult the Wiki page on Belarusians and Ukrainians. There was no "White Russians", or any other kind of "Russians", living in those territories at any time, mistranslations into English notwithstanding. Furthermore, prior to the present independence of Ukraine and Belarus the relevant territories passed hands among many countries (many no longer existent) and it is completely pointless to ascribe "ownership" in a modern sense. Finally, please note that this kind of POV pushing, combined with a characteristic rudeness has been seen in many related articles across Wiki and has led to folks being banned for suck puppetry. I only mention this since you are a anonymous user with an unregistered account.radek (talk) 23:52, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Who is an unregistered account? --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 00:19, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Robvhoorn above.radek (talk) 00:23, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps you confused; User:Robvhoorn is of course a registered account, and has been editing under that username since early 2007. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 01:22, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

My apologies then.radek (talk) 01:38, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Speaking of "Russians", that is exactly how the ansestors of modern Belarussians and Ukrainians self-identified for most of their history, but I guess that was lost in the Polish translation... Ko Soi IX (talk) 00:08, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Nope, that got lost in translation from imperialist Russian to Ukrainian and Belorussian. Additionally, this particular dispute is completely irrelevant to the paragraph/statement it is being added to - whether Molotov-Ribbentrop contributed to Hitler's aggression on Poland. Even if your POV is that these lands somehow "belonged" to Soviet Union by divine right or whatever, it's still the case that the pact itself made things easier for Hitler.radek (talk) 00:23, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

It's not irrelevant. The purpose of this dispute is to undermine your credibility by brining your biases into light. By virtue of common ansestry, the three Eastern Slavic nations shared the same name for most of their history (and yes, of course, the Imperial Russian leadership harnessed that fact for their advantage). For instance, "Wialikaje Kniastwa Litowskaje, Ruskaje, Żamojckaje" - what is the word after "Lithuanian"? In respect to the Molotov-Ribbentrop dealie, this meant that the propagandist claims made by the Soviet leadership about liberating fellow nationals from Polish yoke were not completely baseless. Ko Soi IX (talk) 00:37, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Since I'm not the one inserting pov material into the article, my biases, if I do have them, ARE irrelevant. Argue the content, not the person. Anyway, it's peculiar that those "fellow nationals" weren't exactly thrilled about being "liberated" (small minorities of Bolshevik agents aside). Furthermore your usage of the phrase "fellow nationals" is problematic in at least two ways. First, if the people living in present day Ukraine and Belarus at the time of M-R Pact were nationals of any state they were very obviously "nationals" of the nation of the 2nd Republic of Poland. But ok, perhaps you meant to stress the ethnicity you imagine those people to have had rather than their citizenship status. So second, your use of that term would imply that present day Ukraine and Belarus are also "fellow nationals" of Russians, and hence prolly don't have much of a right to independent statehood. That is a bit of an extremist view. But like I said, all that is irrelevant to whether or not M-R Pact contributed to Hitler's decision to start a war with Poland. So in addition to being POV, OR, and weasely worded, the addition being made is also irrelevant. So shouldn't go in there.radek (talk) 00:52, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Actually, a good portion of the "fellow nationals" were quite happy to be liberated from the Polish opression. However, that changed over time mostly due to unwise and brutal Soviet policies. Basically, I don't contest your removal of that particular change; just couldn't walk by without correcting your factually incorrect statement "There was no "White Russians", or any other kind of "Russians", living in those territories at any time, mistranslations into English notwithstanding." Ko Soi IX (talk) 01:32, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

The Molov-Von Ribbentrop treaty is a mix of two more often occurring actions. As non-agression treaty it can be compared with the treaties of Camberlain with Hitler and the non-agression treaty of Poland with Hitler-Germany in 1934. As grabbing of land, without asking the preferences of the population, it can be compared wuth the changing ownership of Elzas-Lorraine area between Germany and France. So, any remark about that subject is POV. The wide-spread denial of the ethnical majority of 'Soviet'-peoples vesrus Polish people should be compared with ethnographic maps from that period as given in http://www.gutenberg-e.org/osc01/images/osc07n.html or http://www.gutenberg-e.org/osc01/images/osc07m.html By the way, I am glad that the (inhumane) dictator Stalin grabbed that area, because it made it impossible for Hitler to reach Moscow in 1941/42 (it was a very narrow escape); in my opinion that shrotened the war with severla years.Robvhoorn (talk) 10:22, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't say you were the first person to state that. You almost literally reproduced Churchill's words on that account.--Paul Siebert (talk) 21:46, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Robvhoorn edited this sentence: "Some historians believe Stalin contributed to starting World War II because of his secret agreement with Nazi Germany to carve up the nation of Poland, as part of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact of 1939." by removing words "secret" and the phrase "carve up the nation of Poland" claiming that their inclusion was somehow POV. That's just insane. The fact that MRP contained a secret provision is, well, a fact and it cannot be POV. Similarly, regardless of the ethnicity of the people who inhabited the areas, the pact did carve up the nation of Poland. Again, fact. This isn't de-poving, this is just whitewashing and, well, falsifying history. Oh, and there's an obvious difference with Alsace-Lorraine and France and Germany on one hand, and Soviet Union and Germany on the other. I'm sure you can figure it out if you think about it for a second. And what the heck are "Soviet" peoples? Is that a new ethnicity or something? As far as your last sentence, well, first it's OR, second there are historians of the opposing view - that the carve up of Poland made it easier for Hitler to attack SU, not harder, since it brought his armies that much closer.radek (talk) 20:42, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

• If the difference with Alsace-Lorraine and France and Germany on one hand, and Soviet Union and Germany on the other is quite obvious for you, it is not necessarily obvious for everybody. Could you please be more specific?
• I would say that Soviet people really was a new ethnicity in the same extent as the American nation is. This process started after 1917, and there was a huge number of mixed marriages there. In some region of the USSR mixed families were a rule rather an exception.
  This process was interrupted late USSR, but this doesn't meat the process of formation of this new ethnicity had never took place.--Paul Siebert (talk) 21:46, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

"Soviet peoples" are peoples that mainly were living inside the Soviet Union of that time; eg. Belo-Russians, Ukrainians and Ruthenians. The phrase 'carving up' has a negative connotation and stems from both the cold war and the anti-Soviet propaganda before the war. Therefore, it is propagandistic POV. Alsace-Lorraine was inhabited by a majority of German speaking people that preferred to live under German rule. It was very nasty to live under French rule, because France followed centuries long, and still nowaday continues with it, a policy of annihilating other cultures like German, Breton, Flemish, Bask, Corsican, Occitan etc. So a comparison can easily be made. Stalin took back what according the customs of that time belonged to the Soviet Union (like many other countries still nowadays keep areas they grabbed in earlier times eg. Texas, California, New Mexico etc.) and according to the newspapers of that time the majority preferred at that time the Stalin rule above the Polish rule (later, when they learned more about the Stalin rule this attitude changed). The division of Poland should be treated in the lemma of the Molotov-Von Ribbentrop pact, including all considerations from all sides. In the lemma of Stalin one should mention the offer of Stalin of a common attack on Germany by Great Brittain, France and the Soviet Union, in case Hitler would attack Czechoslovakia; acceptation by the western powers would really have stopped Hitler, but they liked 'gentleman' Hitler more than the dictator of a retarded country. The treaty between Chamberlain and Hitler opened really the pathway to the Second World War. In the western world the mass-murders of Hitler (already known in 1933/34) were accepted and only the murders by Stalin were rejected. Robvhoorn (talk) 22:30, 4 October 2008 (UTC)