Talk:Nigger

i typed up a long message on the use and meaning of nigger, and i guess someone got jealous or pissed because i schooled people on it's history and then deleted it! nigga please! grow up, whether you are white or black, truth is truth. stop frontin' and stop deleting other people's discussion messages. that's what a nigger is, uneducated ignorant person! i'm not gonna retype it up but it's amazing how ridiculous people are about the "n" word. makes people wanna say it more... nigga niggers! reply with hate, you'll get hate back. you don't have to like it but ignore it if you're offended and grow some nuts. blacks shouldn't call whites honky or cracker if they don't wanna be called blackie, nigger or "boy"! gets me angry, stupid juveniles... p.s. i'll find you and ruin your edits!

Political usage

I could cite at least one or two examples of people using the word "nigger" as something of a slur against racists - you use the word to project racist attitudes onto another person which you believe them to hold. I've heard it once or twice but I'd like to know if it's a notable and frequent enough usage to warrant comment. --Jammoe (talk) 18:01, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes. People do this to me all the time in political debates. I've never once, in my entire life, used the word nigger out loud, nor in writing for that matter except as a quote, but I'm a Republican and Democrats will always say things like "so Soap*, what're you gonna do when the nigger gets in power?" etc etc. *not my real name of course Soap ^Talk/_{Contributions} 13:36, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Portuguese word "negro"

"Negro" in Portuguese and Spanish is not a derogative term, as it is stated in the article. It is the word for the color black. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.180.226.77 (talk) 15:10, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Also in many italian dialects:Montenegro#Name. In Italy the word "negro/i", used to refer to black people from Africa, was not considered derogatory until the '90s, when african immigrants began to take it as an insult.--84.222.239.52 (talk) 19:06, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

I've heard that rene is considered an offensive term for blacks in the Spanish-speaking areas of the Caribbean (Dominican Republic, Cuba, maybe some others) but it doesnt seem to appear in any dictionary. Also, negrito rather than negro often appears. I dont think either of them is considered offensive by themselves, but sometimes it can be offensive just to mention someone's race. It doesnt work as well in English because you dont usually say "hey look, blacks!!", but in Romance languages, adjectives and nouns are the same, so you can do things like that. Though, by no means is it limited to black people. Soap ^Talk/_{Contributions} 13:40, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Do NOT Undo Edits Because of You Feel They Don't Add Anything

Please do NOT undo edits because you feel they don't add anything. State a tangible reason. Opening description was edited to reword 'black' to African-American or African. The term 'nigga' is a subjective pop culture term that does NOT belong in the opening paragraph. It is something not widely used. Just because you, your friends, or two black folks you know use the term doesn't mean it deserves wikipedia.org callout. Furthermore, it is important to note that the term has dual meaning instead of referring to 'nigga', why not refer to nizzle? All those items OR OTHER STUFF as you like to call it belong in the body of the article. The opening should just summarize and allude to further details to come as this new wording does. -Spencer,Leon 00:32, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Errr. You do realise that your versions still has a link to nigga in the opening paragraph. Its also a well sourced and stable article. You might like to provide some reliable sources for "The strife between pop culture and politically correct culture has led to attempts to avoid words with similar pronunciation - e.g. Niger, niggardly, and negro. Some use derivations such as nig, nigga, niggaz, and nizzle to reflect kinship while avoiding a direct pronunciation of nigger." because it reads very much like your opinion, rather than an accurate reflection of the literature. Rockpocket 00:40, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Very off hand comment I have to say an article on "Nigger" deserves a reference to "Nigga" early in the article as the two terms are very linked and both (sadly) very popular. Yes I understand there is a huge difference between the two spellings. 220.70.250.246 (talk) 14:01, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Someone needs to rewrite the usage in Australia section

Parts of the paragraph (if not all) are complete nonsense and needs to be rewritten.

This needs to change : "Australians, black or white, do not on the whole have the same sensitivity to the word as Americans, at least when it is used in a light-hearted, non-derogatory fashion among established groups of friends."

As well as this: "The relaxed attitude is mainly because there was no direct African slave trading."

The whole tone of the paragraph seems to suggest that in Australia we're more relaxed about the use of the word. That's completely false.

Nah, I'm old enough and Australian enough to know that the word historically and in my lifetime (getting close to the same thing) nigger has never had the same usage or effect as it has in the US. Boong and to a much lesser extent Coon (rather lately...almost never used in the 1950s) are the racist words for darker skinned peoples here; Aborigine and Koori being the non offensive words used now (well, apart from mate or cobber that is :-). --Phil Wardle (talk) 04:58, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I would change it myself,but I can't because of the article is locked. 203.206.9.192 (talk) 10:11, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Do you have a source for the claim that it is "completely false"? JayKeaton (talk) 17:23, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Why are you asking me for a source? It's the writing in the article that needs one. For example: "The relaxed attitude is mainly because there was no direct African slave trading." and this: "Australians, black or white, do not on the whole have the same sensitivity to the word as Americans" 203.206.9.192 (talk) 02:20, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Hey he's just saying you might want a reference, find a website or something that backs you up. You might think it's clear and obvious, but it needs some support. You can't just say it's BS if you think it is. I've personally no idea, but you have to argue and post supporting comments in order for your opinion to stand - pretty much wiki 101. The article is [was] written that way, and yes it may be biased, in that case you show why it is, you dont just ask for it's removal, give us some links, something to act on. :)

I also found this section rather at odds with my experiences of growing up and living in numerous parts of Australia. For example, "when referring to indigenous Australians, the casual terms Abo and the more derogatory boong or coon are used in its place" -- "abo" is not a "casual term" by any stretch of the imagination, indeed the wikipedia entry for abo correctly says it is a racial slur. "Nigger is sometimes used amongst working class Australians, when used in a casual sense between friends or work colleagues of both white and mixed race" come on now, this is ridiculous. Such a practice would be a quick way to cause offence with friends or get you the sack if you were stupid enough to do it with work colleagues. I note that no citations are provided for any of this; perhaps some are needed. This section sounds more like the personal opinions of whomever wrote it. 81.157.83.220 (talk) 20:40, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Note someone has also put a comment at the bottom of this Talk page. So there are at least three people who've commented on here and who think the Australian section should be re-written. 81.157.83.220 (talk) 02:42, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't see any sources for that section, so if someone does rewrite it, he should find a source first. It looks like what's there is original research right now. I would not object to deleting the entire section until someone can find a reliable source, or at least tagging the section as original research. Kman543210 (talk) 02:48, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

common useage not as a negative word

This article hints at common useage not as a negative word; but it should cover that more and say it clearly. I live in Newark, NJ and I hear every day blacks call each other that with affection. (calling each other "my dog" also) "That nigger [is] my dog!" is a high compliment around here. WAS 4.250 (talk) 17:15, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

The double standard and arbitrary punishment of alleged racism should be made more prominent in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.13.63.120 (talk) 05:22, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree, there is almost no mention of double standard with regard to use of the word, yet this has been an issue for a number of years, especially in the hip-hop music scene121.73.165.17 (talk) 01:41, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Pulp Fiction Usage

How in the world does the small mention of the word "Nigger" by Zed get written about but the entire "Dead Nigger Storage" usage from the Bonnie Situation scene doesn't? It seems that if one of them is going to get addressed it would be the latter, not the former. Raoulduke25 (talk) 15:02, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

You can add this, see what format at WP:Profanity. 98.227.192.222 (talk) 10:16, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Because it's profanity. Wikipedia is no a place for "Dead Nigger Storage." 96.241.162.137 (talk) 23:11, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Please Add, if it can be certified

In the United States section, America's top general in the First World War, John Pershing, was once given the nickname "Nigger Jack" because he had led entirely black units before that war and approved of them. His nickname was later changed to "Blackjack Pershing". 74.10.198.105 (talk) 23:45, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

It's mentioned at the end of the Names of places and things section. --Onorem♠Dil 00:35, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Black African?

It was highlighted some time ago that the word Nigger was mostly used to refer to negroids. Indeed, as the article goes on to say it derives for the word negro.

This article would best begin by saying "Nigger is a derogatory term used to refer to dark-skinned people, mostly those with negroid features"

You may think the use of the word "negroid" is problematic and unscientific. However it's far less problematic than using Africa or color to designate who is a nigger (since Egyptians are darker skinned than most of the world, African and yet still not usually considered niggers).

Would a person with negroid features who is an albino be considered an albino nigger? Yes.

It's not the skin color per se, nor the continent of origin that designates who is a nigger. It's the features that would lead a modern forensic anthropologist or earlier scientist to classify a person as a Negro.

The word nigger is an offensive synonym for negro, the word negro describes certain identifiable characteristics in humans. You can't successfully define "nigger" without making direct reference to what is meant by a negro.

Negro need not be a valid scientific concept in order to be used in the definition of nigger, it is however an essential concept.

Speaking of scientific, there are 3 basic skull types anthropologists use to categorise people, they being Caucasian, Asiatic and Negroid. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.13.63.120 (talk) 05:24, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Derogatory?

"Nigger is a derogatory term". This is a false opening statement. It is better written as "Nigger is a word that is deemed offensive in some cultures and a sign of affection in others."

In Britain the word "Nigger" is used often by blacks, but is seen as an excuse for people (black or white) to assault a white person should they use the word, or be rumoured to have used the word.

I myself have witnessed a group of 7 black male youths on a Sunday afternoon at White City tube station approaching young solo travelling white girls, one at a time, and shouting "You called me Nigger, you're a racist, bitch!". Needless to say I was rather shocked and dialled the emergency police number. But, clearly, the word "Nigger" is demonstrated to be a word that is culturally acceptable in the black community to attack whites with.

I don't see how anecdotes and personal opinions support re-writing the lead. Indeed, even if some black persons were using false accusations to attack whites, this fact would only support the claim: "Nigger" is a derogatory term. Phiwum (talk) 12:42, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Characterising a word before it is explained is very unscientific. It might not be a false opening statement, but the student is instantly railroaded into a predetermined insistence which only exists due to immense political pressure. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.13.63.120 (talk) 05:27, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

"Usage by non-blacks in popular culture" section

User:Yilloslime removed this section per "WP:BOLDly removing section which adds nothing to understanding of the word. are we going to list every movie in which "nigger" is used by a white person? what's remarkable about these movies".

Usage by non-blacks in popular culture

The word was used in the 1992 film Reservoir Dogs by Mr. White (Harvey Keitel) while in the car. It was also later used in the 1994 film Pulp Fiction by Zed (Peter Greene), a racist serial killer who rapes Marsellus Wallace (Ving Rhames), when he is playing the controversial version of the counting rhyme "Eeny, meeny, miny, moe" to choose which person to rape.

The word has been used twice by a white person at the start of the 2003 film Bad Boys 2, where there's a Ku Klux Klan rally, when he has a gun to Marcus' (Martin Lawrence) head. In the subtitles of the film in DVD, when the white man says the word, it is read as "Nigger", while when blacks use it in the film, it is read as "Nigga".

The word has been recently used in an episode of The Sopranos, by Anthony Soprano, Jr. (Robert Iler), against a black person who was on a cycle, who then gets beaten up.

On the episode of South Park "With Apologies to Jesse Jackson", Randy Marsh appears on Wheel of Fortune and is presented with a bonus round puzzle whose category is "People Who Annoy You" and solved letters are "N_GGERS." With five seconds to go he reluctantly guesses: "Niggers!" on live national television, shocking his family, friends and millions of viewers worldwide. The correct answer is actually naggers, and Randy loses.

I'm not totally convinced that it should go, but am too on-the-fence to stick it back in the article. It is (somewhat) interesting information, but is also incomplete and poorly written, as well as pretty unencyclopedic. Any thoughts? M.Nelson (talk) 05:37, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

It's valuable to include contemporary references in order to exemplify the word's evolution, and impact on society. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.13.63.120 (talk) 05:30, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Rewriting

"Nigger is a derogatory term used to refer to dark-skinned people . . ." is false and misleading, implying that any usage of the word is derogatory and racist, which is of course not true. There was a lot more of that throughout the article. I've edited the article to make it more neutral. Thom (talk) 15:00, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

The article never explains WHY nigger is offensive to people, which should be its main point.

President Lyndon B. Johnson

He is mentioned as a proponent of Civil Rights. This does Johnson a terrible disservice, as he sacrificed his political career and possibly shortened his life due to his committment to Civil Rights legislation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.13.63.120 (talk) 05:17, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Australia section needs work

The following {{editsemiprotected}} request is rejected for failing to provide a sufficiently specific description of the desired change. It is left in place as a general edit request for an interested editor. 71.41.210.146 (talk) 23:10, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Could someone please edit the Australia section of this page, in particular the following sections :

"it is now rarely used by urban whites in any context; when referring to indigenous Australians, the casual terms Abo and the more derogatory boong or coon are used in its place." This implies that it was once in use and that all references to Aboriginal people are of a racially degrogatory nature.

"Nigger is sometimes used amongst working class Australians, when used in a casual sense between friends or work colleagues of both white and mixed race. It is generally used in imitation of American slang e.g. "Wassup, my nigger." It should be emphasised that the word nigger has far less shock value in Australia than the US and is often used in a typical Australian ironic context, without meaning to, or indeed causing offence. Black, Aboriginal, or Polynesian people may use the term to greet each other. It would not be acceptable to use the term to a stranger or casual acquaintance." The text in the above section are the individual thoughts of the author, no supporting references are given.

However, nigger has seen common use in rural or semi-frontier districts. In this context, the usage was British colonial, that is, applying generically to dark-skinned people of any origin (cf. Rudyard Kipling). This has led to controversy, since Australian Aborigines have started to take the term strongly to heart, in both the pejorative and revisionist senses (see below under Names of places and things). Again, no supporting references to back up the authors belief that the term was in wide and frequent use or that any indigenious Australians use the term today.

Warning?

I know Wikipedia is uncensored and everything. But, should this have a warning? Like "this article may cause offense to some people" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Munchman (talk • contribs) 11:54, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I would say no because there are a lot of articles on wikipedia that may be offensive to some. The talk page above does state that this is a controversial topic and may be offensive to some. There are very explicit (nude) pictures in some articles on wikipedia that do not have any warnings. I don't believe there is any precedent for putting one on an article. I also should hope that the article is written well enough and in an intellectual manner as to not directly offend. Kman543210 (talk) 11:58, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Besides, the number of people who can read English well enough to read the article, but who don't know that the word is offensive, is almost certainly too small to worry about — especially as the article makes it clear that the word is indeed offensive. And if it's the article, rather than the word itself, that's causing offence, then the offended parties should get a better sense of what an encyclopedia is for. garik (talk) 12:18, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Furthermore, you have to type it in/click on it to get here anyway, so you almost always know where you are heading. A dictionary isn't censored. SGGH ^speak! 13:28, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

proposed changes to section on ES Nigger Brown

I proposed the following changes and suggest they also get included in the section on australia

There has been a stir in Australia in recent years over the naming of a stand in the 1960s at a stadium in Toowoomba as the "E.S. Nigger Brown Stand". Toowoomba's first international rugby player Edward Stanley Brown was of caucasian (Anlgo-Saxon) descent yet was known ironically by the nickname of "Nigger Brown" either because he had used a shoe polish brand named "Nigger Brown" or was of fair complexion or both. As in the United States some decades ago, the word had been used casually in Australia. Brown was happy with the nickname, and it is written on his tombstone. A growing consciousness in Australia, however, has led to the term being considered offensive.

Australian activist Stephen Hagan took the responsible local council to court over the use of the word, but lost at the district and state level, and the High Court ruled that the matter was beyond federal jurisdiction (The federal government cited the High Court ruling on a lack of federal jurisdiction as its legal justification for continued inaction). Mr Hagan campaigned further - going to the United Nations while facing bankruptcy and personal attacks over his campaign - and following discussion between the Queensland Sports' Minister Judy Spence and the Toowoomba Sports Ground Trust a decision was made in September 2008 to not use the nickname in a plaque to be erected to continue to commemorate E.S. Brown when the stand is demolished. (Mr Hagan also has tried changing other terms or names such as the Coon brand of cheese.)

IMO there is too much detail [Undue Weight] on this case for this article. The section should be summarised and a new article started about Edward Stanley Brown. Hippo43 (talk) 23:23, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Give me a week or so and I see what I can cook up. The problem might be that a similar argument ({{Off-topic}}) might be levelled against a short biography of E. S. Brown which then elaborates on the stadium issue. On the other hand, an article about the stadium issue alone could be considered as non-encyclopedic and in breach of WP:NOT#NEWS — rock • hard place. Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:29, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

I have now thought about this and I think there is no other place for this item. Neither E. S. Brown nor S. Hagan seem to warrant biographical articles, and the question of the stadium's name as an article seems not noteworthy enough. Furthermore, there have recently been a number of edits which pared down the prose of this section quite a bit, so I think it's no longer overwhelming the article. Note that WP:UNDUE deals with a different aspect of unbalanced writing. Michael Bednarek (talk) 10:53, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, its now a good example and not excessive in size ϢereSpielChequers 14:16, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

E.S. Brown doesn't warrant an article? If you say so, but just from the description above, I thought he'd satisfy the notability requirements. (I know nothing about him aside from the description above, so perhaps I'm just butt-wrong.) Phiwum (talk) 14:57, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

UK usage

The UK section needs a bit more work. For example, "these and other terms had become recognised as offensive racial slurs had been outlawed by stricter government legislation" doesn't make sense - and there is no "stricter government legislation" as described.

There's also too vague a timeline. The term was surely not derogatory in the 1930s when Agatha Christie published her story "Ten Little Niggers". My own sense is that it was not until the the 1950s and 1960s that the idea that it was was imported from the US – no doubt as mass immigration from the West Indies led to perceived competition for jobs between the native population and the new arrivals (similarly in the first section the idea that it became derogatory around 1800 is a remark that needs to be confined to the USA). Deipnosophista (talk) 11:48, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

My Change

I edited "derogatory" to pejorative which is what the similar article Cracker_(pejorative) uses. They are synonyms in a way but I find pejorative to be a more descriptive and encyclopedia worthy word. Inseeisyou (talk) 07:48, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Irish Nigger

Could someone make a section on this. I don't know enough about it, but that ought certainly be mentioned. I mean in america it was used to the irish just as much as it was for blacks

Interesting, but we would need sources for that. I remember Jimmy Rabbitte saying something like it in The Commitments - but to the bemusement of the rest of the band. ϢereSpielChequers 14:14, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Nas - Rapper

The most recent controversy regarding the word "nigger" occurred when rapper Nas, expressed his intent to name his new album “Nigger”. He was attacked by many prominent African Americans, especially Reverend Jesse Jackson who said “The title using the ‘N’ word is morally offensive and socially distasteful. Nas has the right to degrade and denigrate in the name of free speech, but there is no honor in it.” Eventually, Nas changed the title but not before saying “[By using “nigger”] we’re taking power from the word,” and putting a picture of himself with an "N" whipped into his back on the cover. The irony is that Nas still uses “nigger” repeatedly in fourteen of the fifteen tracks on his album, however there was no uproar about the songs, only the title.

70.108.47.165 (talk) 00:52, 11 November 2008 (UTC)Molly Wallace

Dvorak

There doesn't appear to be an easy place in the article to mention that Dvorak's 'American' Quartet was originally the Nigger Quartet (H. H. Schonzeler, Dvorak. Marion Boyars Publishers, New York 1984.)Fleapit (talk) 04:29, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

OK no need to add it then. ϢereSpielChequers 09:06, 13 November 2008 (UTC)