Talk:Israel

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Israel and the Occupied Territories Jerusalem as capital

State terrorism

A paragraph should be included about the practice of state terrorism against the Palestinian population. that's something inherent to the Jewish state. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.36.23.175 (talk) 22:24, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia works with a neutral point of view. 68.160.14.60 (talk)

A neutral point of view does not preclude a discussion of state terrorism. Recall that the terrorist groups Lehi, Hagannah and Irgun are the very first terrorist groups to act in palestine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.68.162.194 (talk) 04:23, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Very arrogant not simply to take the point that you have a point of view. Since many oppose that point of view it is clearly such and thus not neutral. A line could mention "[prominent and authoritative source] has stated that Israel's method of warfare is illegal, describing it as "state terrorism"." If you have a good source and somewhere to put it you could try that. In all likelihood someone would then want to post opposing sources and the whole paragraph would eventually be deleted or incorporated into an article on criticisms of Israel and linked from this article. Hope that helps. --91.110.31.237 (talk) 13:08, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

"Since many oppose that point of view it is clearly such and thus not neutral" - there are many standing on the other side too, does that mean we can't include any information at all? I believe there are plenty of good sources of Israels actions being labeled as state terrorism, from alternative media in the US, and mainstream media from other countries. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.134.252.146 (talk) 10:21, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree with the person who raised this issue. Despite the claim of "neutrality," this article has a definite pro-Israel bias. It's as if terrorism doesn't exist here. Nor is there any respect for the Palestinian point of view. How about the Apartheid Wall? I find the responder extremely arrogant and off-putting. Disregarding the role Israel has played in causing world-wide terrorism and fundamentalist religious extremism is to ignore the elephant in the room. Finally, there is no such thing as a "casus bellum." That translates as "accident war." I think you might have been aiming for "causa belli." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.106.195.150 (talk) 04:55, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

State terrorism, including a discussion of referenced allegations of state terrorism by Israel is discused here: State Terrorism --ShumDavar (talk) 19:46, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Claiming that terrorism against the Palestinians is inherent to the Jewish state, is an inflammatory posting which should be deleted from this discussion page by the author. --ShumDavar (talk) 19:46, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure that it should be removed at all, contributors have a right to raise issues, even if they are contentious, and the question of whether Israel has practiced state terrorism is moot one, Israel has certainly used terroristic methods in the past (and which state, in all honesty hasn't used such methods). There is no doubt that Israel has been consistent in its use of armed methods when dealing with the question of Palestinian former residents of its territory now living in close proximity to its borders. This has been such a feature that it might be right to open the question of whether or not the state has institutionalised 'terrorism' (or perhaps a better term would be 'armed repression' or 'armed suppression') as a means of dealing with Palestinian refugees from the territory which is now part of Israel proper. I would agree that 'terrorism' is an emotive term and perhaps one best avoided (but then again I would also with to avoid its use in regard to Hammas which I find to be a very unsavory group but would say that they have used 'terroristic methods' rather than say they are all terrorists - after all the Hagannah used similar methods to Hamas, excluding suicide bombings, and the Irgun used mass-murder and ethnic cleansing as weapons of war - and its members received a campaign ribbon from the IDF in later years despite being terrorists who tried to import arms and bring off a possible coup d'etat against Israel).EoinBach (talk) 02:51, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Israel's efforts at peace with the Palestinians

In the intro, the paragraph summarising Israel's violent birth ends with, "and efforts are being made to reach a permanent accord with the Palestinians." This is plainly not the case and I intend to edit the sentence. Menswear (talk) 18:00, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Do edit, it was never the case that Israel wanted peace. Agreed, this article also does not mention all sides of the Zionist state, such as examples of what the state has been doing to oppress the Palestinian people such as bulldozing homes, and racism of its people towards the people who were conquered by them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Naztorator (talk • contribs) 05:00, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Alright people, wikipedia is not a battleground for you to bash Israel, do it on your blogs and opinion websites. The fact is that efforts are being made to reach a permanent accord with the refugees from Jordan (a.k.a. Palestinians). We all have differing opinions, but it is important that the articles maintain a neutral point of view regardless of our emotions. Any edits made to this article that do not adhere to this policy will be reverted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.73.22.13 (talk) 19:16, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

It is possible to have a negative view of Israel which is still neutral given the facts show the negative view - Similar to articles on Nazi Germany don't paint a positive view. I think if violence directed at Israel is mentioned, then Israels "break-the-bones" strategies, partitioning of the historical lands of Palestine, and holding the Palestinians under occupation rate a mention. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.134.252.146 (talk) 10:10, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

This sort of an in-depth description of a conflict should go in the article dedicated to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. As for the claim that efforts are not being made to reach a peace accord: if you can find a reliable and authoritative source to establish such claims i think that you should indeed edit the paragraph. Gregie156 (talk) 20:20, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

PROPAGANDA?

"The United Nations and most countries do not recognize Jerusalem as the capital and maintain their embassies in other cities such as Tel Aviv, Ramat Gan, and Herzliya."

This information keeps being deleted by Okedem. I dont think it is trivia.--Abuk78 (talk) 12:28, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

First off, quick tip. If you want people to take you seriously, don't write provocative titles in ALL CAPS. It's shouting, and it's rude.

What you write is just another piece of information related to Israel. There are many such pieces of information, all true and referenced. Not all of them can be in a article, and certainly they can't all be in the lead. Thus, we have to pick the most important points. The identity of a nation's capital is certainly relevant, and you can see it mentioned in the lead of most country articles. International opinion regarding the capital, is not quite so important. It does not change anything about the capital, which is defined as a nation's seat of government. Jerusalem still fulfills its functions as the nation capital, regardless of what other countries think of it. Thus, that piece of information is not important enough for the lead. It is mentioned in the footnote from the info-box.

Beyond that explanation, note this - this article, like many other contentious ones, has been heavily debated and changed. As always, the lead receives the greatest amount of attention. The current phrasing is the result of many discussions and arguments, and represents the opinion of many editors. This is also the version that got FA status. When you wish to make a change to such an article, the proper way to do so is to suggest your alternative version in the talk page, and get other people's opinions. Constant re-insertion of your phrasings, without trying to discuss things, is edit-warring. Even if you think your version if "the right one", respect other people's opinions, and try to collaborate, not force your way.

I am reverting your version, and adding a link to said footnote from the lead. A change will only happen if there's major support for your change on the talk page, and not before. okedem (talk) 13:22, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Agree that CAPS are rude, but also agree that the the information is important enough to be included here. RomaC (talk) 15:16, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

This is a true, referenced and important piece of information. "Anyone" can edit FAs. This edit doesn't change the FA status of this article and adds value to the article. But as far as I can see you are another article guardian in Wikipedia. --Abuk78 (talk) 15:25, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

I think Okedem is right. This is detailed in the footnote. It is also well explained in Jerusalem and Positions on Jerusalem. It is also detailed in Tel Aviv. No need to push it everywhere. -- Nudve (talk) 15:29, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

How is it relevant enough? It's nothing but a minor point. It changes nothing of Jerusalem being the capital. It has no bearing on the lives of Israelis. For all intents and purposes, by all definitions, Jerusalem is the capital. As interesting as international opinion may be, it is far from notable enough for the lead. It is important for the article about Jerusalem, but not for the entire country, and certainly not for the lead.

If you want to discuss this further - sure. Explain how it's important enough for the lead. Why it's on the same level as the country's location, the few sentences about its history, or its political system. But first - revert to the stable version, instead of pushing your version by force. okedem (talk) 16:42, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Indeed; classic case of WP:UNDUE. Jayjg ^(talk) 05:24, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

This is by no means a case of WP:UNDUE since the vast majority of the world does not consider Jerusalem as the capital of israel, simply because it does not belong to that country. Okedem seems to find a "minor" detail the fact that Israel stolen Jerusalem, breaking the very agreement that created it. Eshneto (talk) 04:59, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

I disagee with Okedem. It seems clear (see Positions on Jerusalem article) that this article should instead state "Israel claims Jerusalem as its capital". The existing phrase "Jerusalem is the country's capital" indicates bias and asserts something as fact which is contrary to majority international opinion. Wikiwikiwwwest (talk) 15:24, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Israel controls Jerusalem and there for it is the countries capital even though its disputed. I agree that there should be a comment added on afterwards saying something like, it is the capital although this is disputed by some etc. Information on another article or in a footnote is not going to be seen by many people so it would be helpful to include it but i dont see the need to say its "claimed by" that too would be bias in my opinion. BritishWatcher (talk) 15:35, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

"Control" isn't even the point. There's no precedent anywhere I know of for other countries to have any say whatsoever regarding a country's choice for capital city. They can have an opinion, certainly, but for every country in the world, throughout history, it appears that their capital is exactly where they choose their capital to be. "Claim" indicates bias; neutrality simply says "Jerusalem is Israle's capital." --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 15:51, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

There is a strong precedent for not allowing the capital of a nation-state to be outside that nation-states territory (and certainly not in disputed territory). I'm pretty sure Denmark has a say in whether or not China's capital city can be within Denmark. Another case in point as the republic of China's capital - listed as being "De Facto" and "Provisional" in wikipedia because their chosen capital is under the control of another state. In the case of Israel they "claim" a capital that is on land that was not allocated to them. As such they have had to militarily occupy the capital to make this happen. If control has nothing to do with it, they could have chosen New York city and not occupied it - would that then make new york the capital of Israel for our purposes? (Come to think of it, I might suggest that Sealand legislate New York to be their capital). I don't think it's neutral to state that Jerusalem is Israels capital without qualification. You would be taking the offical view of only Israel and the US govt (and a few others) into account - the official stance of my government is that the capital of Israel is Tel Aviv. (ps:how do I sign?) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.134.252.146 (talk) 10:42, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be possible to have something along the lines of 'Jerusalem is Israel's Capital, but as parts of it are occupied territory this is not recongised by much of the international community'.EoinBach (talk) 03:14, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

It is ABSOLUTELY relevant to state, right up front, that Israel considers Jerusalem its capital but that this does not have international recognition. There are 2 pieces of information in that phrase, and each part is equally important. The only reason to mention the lack of international recognition in a footnote is so that most readers do not see it. 67.193.235.12 (talk) 16:08, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Recent developments

Header made by EivindJ.

<< Isarel killed about 800 and injured over 3200 in 14 days offense on Gaza Strip between 2008/12/27-2009/01/09 about 50% of them are women and children under 16 years old. Isarel did not respond to UNSC resolution for immerditae cease-fire. Hamas fired rockets because of the siege that lasted about 18 month during 2007 & 2008. Only 6 Isarelies were killed in rockts attacks. This is not an openion, these are facts from news channels and newspaper articles quoting both sides...It is also dokumented in UNSC meetings regarding Gaza situation, that Israel targeted civilian and aid-worker. Both ICRC and UNRWA submitted official complaints about Isareli armed-forces targeting their operation and employees. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.100.80.81 (talk • contribs) 13:44, 9 January 2009

First of all, most of your data is false. I suggest you use more reliable sources. Now to the main point - are you trying to improve the article, or are you just trying to defame Israel? DrorK (talk) 14:29, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Adding to the first comment, which does carry with it a strong hint of anti-Semitism, the West Bank is one of the most densely populated areas in the world with almost half of the population under the age of 17, so it is far more likely that more and younger casualties will occur in the Palestinian provinces than Israel. The other fact not disclosed in the first statement is that Israel's attack was in response to a preceding 6000 rocket attacks by Hamas. These facts can be verified in recent new paper articles[1]. I suggest checking facts and using a spell check tool before contributing to articles. TriXtar (talk) 00:41, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't think that it carries a 'strong hint of anti-Semitism' at all. The contributor was trying to point out the numbers killed. One may or may not agree with his arguments about why Hamas behaved as it did and about Israeli behaviour but I don't think that it is right to throw around accusations of 'anti-Sematism' just because one is critical of particular actions by Israel. I'm not Israeli but am critical of actions by the coutnries of which I am a citizen and accept critism by people from outside my country, I don't feel the need to accuse them of being racist - particularly as I sometimes agree with that criticism. It would be better to just refute the contributor without the emotive language of 'anti-Semitism' unless he says something particularly aimed at Jews (rather than Israelis) and suggests that Jews across the world are somehow or other bad and evil (and lets hope that no-one ever says such rubbish again). That is anti-semitism, critisising Israel for its actions as a state is not anti-Semitism.EoinBach (talk) 03:31, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

I would encourage TriXtar to read WP:CIVIL. Accusing someone of anti-semitism is a very strong accusation, and completely unfounded in this case. I don't think the statement should be added to the article (because it's news, not permanent facts), but that is another matter. And please do not confuse being anti-Israel with being an anti-Semite.JdeJ (talk) 19:17, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Please stop with going around calling anyone who you claim to be defaming the Zionist state as anti-semitic. One cannot be called a racist for defamation of the Zionist state. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Naztorator (talkwhat their • contribs) 05:05, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

I think that criticism of Israel, can be of course not antisemitic, as well as criticism of Zionism. Even those who say that Israel has no right to exist,are not always antisemitic, like Gaddafi from Lubya, who says that there should be no Israel or Palestine, but one state for both Israelis an Palestinians. But when somebody justify Hamas firing rockets he is anti-Semitic. Hamas dont target military targets with this rockets, nor political, they don`t ask if somebody Zionist or not, they randomly target Israelis, and as they themselves say that their targets are Israeli Jews, and that Israeli Arabs, Muslim or Christians are not their enemy. So if somebody justify randomly killing Jews of Israel or any other country, they are without a doubt anti-Semitic, no matter justification is.Igorb2008 (talk) 17:08, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

God

the Land of Israel was promised to the three Patriarchs of the Jewish people, by God, as their homeland should read as the Land of Israel was promised to the three Patriarchs of the Jewish people, by their god, as their homeland as saying "by God" could be viewed as A) an acknowledgment of a higher power and B) recognition that their god is the only god....also capitalizing it as a proper noun insinuates as much by using it as a name. I would have changed it myself but apparently I can't edit this without an account and I'm lazy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.225.220.120 (talk • contribs) 05:57, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

since this is a paraphrase from the torah, it does not need to be changed Goalie1998 (talk) 00:09, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Neutrality regarding protests

"Israel responded with a series of airstrikes.[99] In response, protests broke out around the world.[100]"
Is this neutral without mentioning the later pro-Israeli rallies? Squash Racket (talk) 06:40, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

It is still neutral. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Naztorator (talk • contribs) 05:08, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Naztorator, do you have anything useful to add to the discussion page or is your purpose here to spread your opinions and biased point of view on Israel? Both pro and anti Israeli rallies should be linked to keep the article neutral. If you disagree, please explain your position.

there were jaust as many pro israel protests as "pro-hamas" protests —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.161.38.26 (talk) 23:22, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

History section

In the very beginning of the "History" section.

"The Land of Israel ... has been sacred to the Jewish people since Biblical times. According to the Torah, the Land of Israel was promised to the three Patriarchs of the Jewish people, by God, as their homeland;[22][23] scholars have placed this period in the early 2nd millennium BCE.[24]"

Chat's cool, people. I mean, that's really fantastic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by FeelSunny (talk • contribs) 16:06, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Capital city

The capital city of Israel is Tel Aviv, not Jerusalem. If Jerusalem was ever made capital city that would cause war as the three main religions would have trouble deciding on a chief of state. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 154.20.41.81 (talk) 03:53, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

The capital is Jerusalem. There is no reliable source that states the capital of Israel Tel Aviv. Please post your source if you feel this is incorrect. Otherwise, please stop trying to conform wikipedia to your biased point of view. This article could becoming locked from vandalism if everyone cannot be neutral. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.73.22.13 (talk) 19:25, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Erm.....No. The UN and International law does not recognize Jerusalem to be the capital of Israel. Please refer to the 1997 UN report titled "The Status of Jerusalem" which calls it essentially an international city. Please stop with your biased POV.... And acknowledge International law on the issue.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.38.41.91 (talk) 18:49, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Thankfully, international law doesn't control Israel. The capital is Jerusalem whether you like it or not. This is not a biased POV, it is clear by looking at any map that exists. There is no need to acknowledge international law since Israel declared it as its capital when they became independent. End of discussion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.73.22.13 (talk) 21:53, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Please see the archives on this subject; it has been discussed ad infinitum. The editors have decided to leave Jerusalem as the listed capital in the article with a footnote explaining why. Thank you Goalie1998 (talk) 19:35, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Druze In Israel

The part "Religion in Israel" about the groups in the Arab minority : Druze DO NOT consider themselves Arab (source 36, article "Druze" - Identity Repertoires among Arabs in Israel, Muhammad Amara and Izhak Schnell; Journal of Ethnic and Migration Studies, Vol. 30, 2004) and for some it's even insulting. Please change it, thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.250.111.251 (talk) 21:52, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

This is a lot of information for this Country. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.2.235.98 (talk) 16:53, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Surely there should be more mention of the Palestinian conflict in the lead?

The only mention,, virtually, is "efforts for a long-lasting peace with the Palestinians have so far been unsuccessful." A bit of an understatement as well.

The issue defines Israel in the international community. In fact, in English speaking countries (which this encyclopedia caters for) this is the main point of interest about the country of Israel.Jandrews23jandrews23 (talk) 21:13, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

And while we're at it, let's mention Natalie Portman and felafel in the lede, since they're also a main point of interest about the country. Boring details like location and population can wait.Jalapenos do exist (talk) 20:57, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm extremely sorry, but as far as I know Jerusalem is NOT the capital of Israel, although it is the largest and culturally the most significant city of the country. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.250.225.205 (talk) 19:47, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Then you do not know the definition of capital. The capital is the country's seat of government. Israel designated Jerusalem as capital, and its parliament, government offices, supreme court, etc. are located there. Thus, it is the capital. okedem (talk) 20:04, 7 February 2009 (UTC)