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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Sakis79 (talk | contribs) at 13:18, 26 May 2009 (→‎Freedom or Death). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Straw poll on the application of the name "Republic of Macedonia" on the article Greece

Unresolved
 – Split long thread (117kb) to Talk:Greece/Naming poll per WP:SIZE. slakr\ talk /

The Map and The Map Only, Please

Unresolved
 – Split long (45kb) thread to Talk:Greece/The Map per WP:SIZE. --slakr\ talk /

Unprotect

The article must be unprotected. So ok, there is no number for Slavophones, for Balkan bears, for crazy drivers, but there are gaps in this article that can be filled and all editors who are discussing can carry on here. But that is probably too simple. Trompeta (talk) 18:49, 29 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As long as there is an issue over the name of Macedonia in this article, it must remain protected. Over the last month, within minutes of it being unprotected, it has suffered heavy edit warring. If you have something that needs changing, and you have a consensus or good references for the change, contact an admin and they will make the change. Until ArbCom decides on the naming issue, however, it is best that this article remain fully protected. My suggestion is to present your proposed change here, let a couple of others comment or agree, and then present a solid case to an admin for the change and they will make it. (Taivo (talk) 19:00, 29 April 2009 (UTC))[reply]

It's just two word, former Yugoslav, so the whole country is blocked. The issue will last as long at the two countries are negotiating, you see what I mean, the negotiations makes is a legitimate issue, except for Wikipedia. Trompeta (talk) 19:32, 29 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, it should be unprotected. man with one red shoe 19:46, 29 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The number of crazy drivers is known. Most of the population. Dr.K. logos 20:20, 29 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The last time this article's protection expired, it last exactly 30 minutes (maybe a whole hour) before it had to be protected again. Tasos is right--most of the population consists of crazy drivers. (Taivo (talk) 21:29, 29 April 2009 (UTC))[reply]
I've asked the Arbcom to accompany unprotection with a temporary injunction against changing the contentious bits. Of course it's a bit of an open question to what extent the angry young men on this page would be prepared to actually heed such an injunction, but it would be worth a try. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:31, 29 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Just make sure that there's an admin handy to revert the firebrands and reprotect the page quickly to the point it stands now. (Taivo (talk) 06:18, 30 April 2009 (UTC))[reply]

As i see we are pretty much a month already in protection maybe the article shall be protected for ever so as to make some people happy. But then we should also rename the whole project from wikipedia the "free editing encyclopedia" to spazarhidia. --—Ioannes Tzimiskes Talk 17:13, 19 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The article came out of protection on May 16, but almost immediately nationalists were changing "Republic of Macedonia" to FYROM. There were a couple of other edits made, but the edit warring over the name of Macedonia had begun again. The only way to keep the article from descending again into chaos was to protect it again. Once arbitration is finished, if there is a clear policy over the name of Macedonia to use in this article, it can come out of full protection into semi-protection (where anonymous IPs are not allowed to edit, but registered users are). (Taivo (talk) 17:43, 19 May 2009 (UTC))[reply]

Macedonia (again)

While the issue is in arbitration, the name of Macedonia should not be changed here. Please respect the arbitration process and do not change "Republic of Macedonia" to something else. (Taivo (talk) 03:58, 17 May 2009 (UTC))[reply]

Greece foreign relations

Please help find sources for the article Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Greece-Kyrgyzstan relations. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 15:40, 23 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Interim solution

Until the ArbCom decides, just delete the disputed map and keep the article protected. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Esem0 (talk • contribs) 06:47, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, in the previous proposal, I should have added that the text describing the bordering countries should include both disputed names "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" or Republic of Macedonia", until the issue is resolved (and other textual references, since I have not read the entire article yet!). Esem0 (talk) 07:00, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, but the ArbCom is at work. Until the issue is resolved, nothing's going to change here. There is nothing disputed about "Republic of Macedonia", that is the official long-form name of the country. According to Wikipedia policy, self-identifications take precedence over anything imposed externally. Wikipedia policy stresses 1) most common English usage (which is Macedonia) and 2) self-identification (which is Republic of Macedonia). "The former Yugoslav" doesn't even have a place at the table. But nothing is going to change here until the ArbCom is finished and there is a firm Wikipedia Macedonia naming policy. (Taivo (talk) 10:14, 24 May 2009 (UTC))[reply]

Uniform naming policy vs. disambiguation vs. ArbCom work

If it is not too late, this is a small input/query: Under uniform naming policy, a noteworthy situation is with Thrace and Epirus, which are geographical regions spread over two or three countries. One may also consider old geographical regions like Paionia. The question now is: If one searches the word "Macedonia" what should wikipedia result in? Macedonia is also a geographical region spread over one, or two, or how many countries? It is a long standing fact that this word has been used to denote a Greek territory inside modern Greece. It is also a fact that it has denoted a territory of former Yugoslavia. I am not sure if the Macedonian region spreads also in Bulgaria and elsewhere, but the point is made: Which wikipedia policy will resolve this real problem, which has not been solved between the parties (countries) concerned yet? Likewise, if the part of Thrace inside Greece became an independent state, and if it chose to call itself "Thrace", the same question would arise for wikipedia: Searching for "Thrace", what the result should be? Should the result be different from what it is at present?

The above rationale may help sort out the article "Macedonia", but it leaves the article "Greece" having a territory of its own called "Macedonia" adjacent to "Macedonia" undecided: Should the neighboring country be named "Macedonia", "Republic of Macedonia", or "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" ("FYROM")?. If "Macedonia" is not the official name of the country by any side, then it cannot describe a country. Then, there remains to determine what the official name of that country is: "Republic of Macedonia" or "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia". Then the problem reduces to: What is "official"? Is it the UN, the EU, the USA, the number of recognizing the name countries, the country itself, or what? Does a wikipedia policy exist in this regard?

I hope a solution will be found to effect both a genuine uniform policy and a factual/unbiased article, also to avoid/stop editing wars. Wikipedia is the most wonderful concept of our era and must be protected itself. Esem0 (talk) 13:28, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yawn... man with one red shoe 13:45, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
In cases where disambiguation is necessary, then Wikipedia generally defaults to the official self-identification, which, in this case, is "Republic of Macedonia", which is what we find here at Greece. UN or EU usage is not relevant, Wikipedia is not a branch of any international organization. Wikipedia defaults to common English usage as the primary name. Only in specific locations, such as at here at Greece where there is a region also known as "Macedonia", do we then use a more accurate self-identification, in this case the constitutional name. But, as I said above, the subject will be formally codified in a policy at the conclusion of the arbitration process and the subsequent naming adjudication, so what I have stated is Wikipedia practice based on WP:NAME and WP:NCON. "The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" fails all tests of what to call Macedonia based on current Wikipedia policies. But, EsemO, you seem to be a newcomer here so I'll let you know that this issue has been discussed and discussed and discussed for years. There is nothing new to be said on the matter, so I suggest that you focus on finding something more constructive and less controversial to contribute to Wikipedia. Nothing is going to happen with regards to using Macedonia's name here until the arbitration and naming dispute processes have run their course. There is a big, wide Wikipedia world here, so find your niche and dive in. But if this is the only issue that interests you, there's no place to dive--just an empty concrete hole in the ground. (Taivo (talk) 14:39, 24 May 2009 (UTC))[reply]

Freedom or Death

I just found out that the use of this motto by the revolutionaries of the Greek insurrection i for some reason being disputed? not well sourced? I really don't know... Anyways.. I will upload some photographs of historical flags from the time of the insurrection with the said motto written on them. I have to mention that finding information on this issue on the net is very easy and thus I really cannot understand the fuzz. There are many more, should somebody need more evidence that this motto WAS used by the insurgents. [1], [2], [3], [4], [5]. GK1973 (talk) 10:01, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Historic use on flags of the Greek revolution isn't the issue; that's uncontroversial. It was a motto of the Filiki Etairia, obviously. The issue is whether it's an official motto of today's Hellenic Republic. To be that, it would need to be:
  • explicitly defined as such in Greek legislature, in the same way the national flag, anthem, seal or coat of arms are defined (similar to how "Live Free or Die" is defined in New Hampshire legislation here), and/or
  • fixed heraldic part of a current official Greek state symbol, such as a national coat of arms or seal (similar to how "Plus Ultra" is part of the Coat of Arms of Spain), and/or
  • routinely featured on coins/banknotes or similar items (similar to how "In God We Trust" is regularly featured on dollar bills, or "Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité" on French coins.)
Last time we discussed this, nothing of this type was found. It's an historic motto connected with the Greek nation, but it's not an official state motto. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:14, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Official" is a little bit difficult to be defined here. "Freedom or Death" comprises a motto used in Greek official and unofficial bibliography, mainly when addressing matters of the 1821 Insurrection, the 1854 Insurrection in Thessaly and generally in all Greek wars for "liberty". It was even used in 1943 by Greek partizans. In Greece, this motto is extensively used and adorns flags and banners in the official celebration of the 25th of March in schools, streets, parades etc. As an official symbol we find it in the emblem of the 4th Infantry Division [6]. This is the "official" 1996 poster of the Hellenic Army General Staff [7] regarding the celebration of the 25th March insurrection. This is of 1992 [8], of 1985 [9], of 1982 [10] etc.. Again these consist "official" posters issued by the Greek army, where this motto is repeatedly used. So, if "official" in this case means a repeated official use of the said motto by the Greek government, I think this is clearly shown in the Greek military. I hope you will not contest that the motto being an official motto of the Greek army is not also an official motto of the Greek state. In the future I will produce more "official" uses of this motto, but again I think we should not be so overwhelmingly wary. GK1973 (talk) 14:11, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No, a national state motto, in the technical sense implied by its position in the infobox, is something used like the "In God We Trust" of the US. This is nothing of the sort. This is a slogan connected to an event in Greek history, but not a symbol of the modern state. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:22, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Can you point me to the discussion on this topic? I really do not know what it was exactly about. I know that this motto is one of the official mottos of the Greek state, used in multiple occasions but then so is "No" (OXI), "Amynesthai peri patris" (Defending the homeland) and many more. Is this a case about choosing one over all the others or just about establishing its "official" status? GK1973 (talk) 14:32, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The previous discussion is now in Archive 5. The question was whether this motto should be included in the infobox along with the flag, anthem and coat of arms. Your statement that those other mottos are all basically on the same level essentially confirms that this one is not a uniquely representative state motto to go in that place. There's only one flag, only one coat of arms, only one hymn; if there are several mottos, then none of them is on a par with those. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:50, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

OK! So, "Freedom or Death" is indeed one of the official mottos of the Greek state, officially used in its military as the motto of the 4th Infantry Division and in a great number of formal occasions, it was the "official" unofficial motto of the Greek Insurrection of 1821 (before there was an official government) and was used in freedom struggles of more recent years by Greek militants, is present on a number of highly cherished Greek military relics but officially, nowadays, it is not more acknowledged than a number of other mottos. So, the question now should only be whether only one, unquestionably acknowledged as the sole official Greek motto should be used in the infobox or any official motto of a relatively higher collective acknowledgment from modern Greeks or none. Is your position the one followed throughout Wikipedia as a rule? GK1973 (talk) 16:03, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Only thing I can tell you is that on the List of state mottos page, almost all entries have footnotes, and almost all of them point to either an official piece of legislation defining the motto, or to the fact that it's contained in the flag or COA. As for your examples: a motto of an infantry division is a motto of that infantry division, not of the state as a whole. And the motto used in celebrations of 25 March is a motto of that historical event, not of the state. So, no, as long as the state doesn't explicitly define it as its official motto, it isn't its official motto. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:09, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As I said, it is an official motto. An official motto of any military unit cannot but be an official motto of the state the unit belongs to. I do not propose that this motto should be included in the infobox, but it nevertheless is ONE official Greek motto. When you say "its official motto" you imply that there should be only one such motto and on these grounds this one is not THE ONE official motto. It is true, that in the Greek Constitution there is no reference to any motto nor is it written on the official flag. So, if these two conditions are prerequisites for a motto to be included in the infobox, then I agree with you. GK1973 (talk) 16:31, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yet, at a glimpse I can see a lot of instances which do not abide by those rules in this list... I will look into it more... And believe you me, I really do not care whether this particular motto will or will not be included in the Greek infobox. I just believe that Greeks have been targeted more than they deserve in the last month, so I want to check some things more. GK1973 (talk) 16:38, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Excuse me for butting, I saw this on the ARBCOM page and went and look on the official pages of the Hellenic Republic website..and symbols. There is no mention of a motto. Seems that would be the best source for "official". There are other mottos in the United States that are invoked often to this day, but in no way are considered official. "Give me liberty or give me death" or "Don't Tread on Me", for example..or even "Remember the Alamo" ;). Most every American knows these, too..but they are not THE motto of the U.S, though venerable they are and well recognised as part of the USA's heritage. Could the same situation apply here? And due respect given the cultural heritage of the motto with the understanding that it is not the official motto all noted somewhere else where it is clear it isn't the official motto. Gingervlad (talk) 16:48, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There is not ONE official motto of Greece (as far as I know). In this I agree 100%. I just want to make sure that this is the one prerequisite demanded for such a motto to be included in the infobox. If it is so, then (apparently) no motto should be added there. GK1973 (talk) 16:56, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There is no obligation for legislation, regarding national mottos. A national motto doesn't have to be present in banknotes and coins either. FP should prove that his materialistic definition for national mottos, is unambiguous and indisputable, in order to justify his edit; or else he should revert it himself. SQRT5P1D2 (talk) 01:54, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
So, SQRT, where is your reliable source that says that this motto is the official motto of Greece? Future Perfect does not need to prove the negative. You need to prove the positive. (Taivo (talk) 03:14, 26 May 2009 (UTC))[reply]
Read again. It seems that the national motto is good for the EU, regarding the greek nation. (ctrl+f "Ελευθερία ή θάνατος").SQRT5P1D2 (talk) 09:52, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Couldn't be more official! I really can't understand, what else do they want? Here is the English version http://www.europarl.europa.eu/elections2009/countries/text/greece.htm;jsessionid=CC4F5928B3A76DA0C9DCD612F1961C2C.node2?country=GR&language=EN that says "Motto: Liberty or Death" --xvvx (talk) 12:41, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Uh, gentlemen, that's not a reliable source. That's a website. (Taivo (talk) 12:58, 26 May 2009 (UTC))[reply]
You got to be kidding me! The European Parliament portal is not a reliable source??? Just to add... the UN, NATO etc are not reliable sources, since they are websites? Yes all of them are websites, but what makes a website a reliable source is the organization behind. If you open a website and post your opinion there, that's not official or reliable... if the European Union creates a website, that's official and reliable. What more do you want? xvvx (talk) 13:09, 26 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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