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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Akjgo94 (talk | contribs) at 11:34, 21 July 2009. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.


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Notice Coming here to ask why I reverted your edit? Read this page first...

Please leave me new messages at the bottom of the page; click here to start a new section at the bottom. I usually notice messages soon. I attempt to keep conversations in one location, as I find it easier to follow them that way when they are archived. If you open a new conversation here, I will respond to you here. Please watchlist this page or check back for my reply. If I have already left a message at your talk page, unless I've requested follow-up here or it is a standard template message, I am watching it. If you leave your reply here, I may respond at your talk page if it seems better for context. If you aren't sure if I'm watching your page, or I'm slow to reply, feel free to approach me here.

Welcome to my talk page! I am an administrator here on Wikipedia. That means I am here to help. It does not mean that I have any special status or something, it just means that I get to push a few extra buttons to help maintain this encyclopedia.

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You can email me from this link but in the interests of Wiki-transparency, please message me on this page unless there are pressing reasons to do otherwise. Comments which I find to be uncivil, full of vulgarities, flame baiting, or that are are excessively rude may be deleted without response. If I choose not to answer, that's my right, don't keep putting it back. I'll just delete and get annoyed at you.

removal of Voynich link...

User:SOPHIAN and maps

Hi, I noticed your warning to SOPHIAN on his talkpage has been deleted by him, but he has also started a programme of deleting other people's maps, some of which I think are OK. This subject has BTW been discussed a few times on WP:HGH. My understanding is that maps where the data is put together and mapped by a Wikipedian need to be looked at as potential OR, depending upon obviousness, while straight scans of maps risk being deleted as OR. However I understood that non-slavish reproductions of published maps, noting their sourcing, are OK. Trying to engage SOPHIAN on talkpages is not very easy.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 06:03, 11 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps also of interest to you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_talk:R1A_map.jpg. --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 07:17, 12 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You may also be interested as an admin who has been involved in SOPHIAN controversies: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:William_M._Connolley&diff=302387535&oldid=302377030 --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 09:52, 16 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Akhenaten page

Did you get my email regarding the Akhenaten page? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zululep (talk • contribs) 07:02, 11 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, and replied to it also, saying something like your edits had no edit summaries and did remove a lot of text, and you were editing without an account, and that combination always sets off alarm bells. I'm not sure why you removed so much text. We can of course show what reliable sources think - their opinions, if you will, and in fact we should so long as they are significant and we are representing current thought. If you'd made edit summaries explaining what you were doing, it's much less likely I wouldn't have reverted. Shall we discuss the article on its talk page? Dougweller (talk) 15:11, 11 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ancient Egyptian Race Controversy

Can you help me understand what is going on? I have not looked at this pae for a while but the last time I did I found Ancient Observer and Wdford to be thoughtful constructive editors and now they are banned. Do you understand what they did to get themselves banned?

On another note, I have my own proposal that is meant to help resolve the conflicts: have one article on the controversy, but mak it explicitly an article about scholars, journalists, activists, living in the twentieth century and using an argument over the past to forward present-day agendas, and have either an article or just a section in the article on Egyptian history that limits itself to acknowledged scholars of Ancient near Eastern history and archeology as sources, for separate discusions concerning (1) what we know about Egyptian demography and (2) what we know about how Egyptians classified themselves and others (such classifications understood to be social constructions). By this propoal, if an acknolwedged scholar has claimed that the ancient Egyptians had a notion of race, that could go into the article but properly contextualized and explained.

Thoughts? Slrubenstein | Talk 02:39, 14 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You called this comment tendentious: "as the article title makes clear, this article is about the Afrocentric "race controversy", not about prehistoric Egypt in general.". How does that statement differ from your suggestion to "have one article on the controversy, but mak it explicitly an article about scholars, journalists, activists, living in the twentieth century and using an argument over the past to forward present-day agendas,"? Dougweller (talk) 05:41, 14 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Is this the question you have been waiting for an answer for? if so, I regret taking so long to answer it, I only now saw it. I suppose what i wrote was vague. First off, I could just have easily written 19th/20th century - my point is, an article about modern Europeans, EuroAmericans, African Americans, not ancient Egyptians. Secondly, my sentence does not refer to "afrocentrists." I take it for granted that there is a controversy because of a debate between Afrocentrists, Eurocentrists, and probably other views. dab's comment is tendentious and frankly offensive for two reasons. First, the title of he article does not specify Afrocentric so he is distorting the situation. Second, by singling out Afrocentrists (who, with the possible exception of Martin Bernal, are all or mostly Black), he is implying that it is Blacks who hold nutty views. The fact is, when I look at popular views of topics of scholarly research, from evolution to who built the pyramids, it seems to me that most non-scientists/scholars hold pretty nutty views. I have even seen documentaries produced by the National Geogfraphic, Discover, and History channels promote nuty views (by which i mean, views that most historians or anthropologists or geographers would dismiss as fringe). dab's comment suggests that there is a controversy only because some people are Afrocentric. Other editors have pointed out that several people who have written about ancient Egypt were Eurocentric, and that this is part of the "controversy." I do not see how any progress can be made on this article as long as it is characterized as promoting afrocentric views. Now, i know that some editors have tried to use the article to promote afrocentric views. So what? Screw them. There are other editors who are trying to use the article not to promote any view but to provide an account of a controversy. I'd like to give those editors time to look for articles by anthropologists, sociologists, intellectual historians, or cultural studies people because i think it is quite likely that someone in one of these disciplines has analyzed how debates over the race of ancient Egyptians actually have been motivated by and reveal something about race relations in the 19th and 20th centuries. An article that explores this would be a pretty interesting article in my view. But as long as some people characterize it as a controversy between Afrocentrists and scientists, we will get nowhere. Let the article on Egyptian history or Ancient Egyptians draw on mainstream research by scholars. Let the "controversy" article be about popular views about a particular historical topic - some Afrocentric, some Eurocentric, and all revealing something about how modern people (not necessarily historians, but maybe just regular people) think about history. History is regularly politicized, if this is a new idea to you I highly recommend historian Mike Wallace's Mickey mouse History. But blacks and whites are equally capabl of politicizing history and if as dab suggests this article should put all the weight on afrocentrists, well, then he is politicizing it. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:12, 14 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Slrubenstein quite obviously has no idea what he is talking about and would profit from reading the article. For all his involvement in "race" articles, I am dumbfounded at the naive and confused grasp on the topic he still appears to have.

The above is very close to a direct personal attack on me. No, I am not implying that "Blacks hold nutty views". I am implying that some people hold nutty views, and it is our job to keep them off the wiki. This appears to work reasonably well as long as the nutters are white power Neo-Nazi Nordicists, and if you know anything about my involvement in ethnic nationalism topics you would know that I have been combatting those, too. It is just very easy to get rid of your typical Neo-Nazi nutter, while it seems to be almost impossible to get rid of your typical Afrocentrist Black Power nutter, because if these are banned, people are sure to stand up and complain "but how could you ban him ... he's black!".

My answer to this is that I don't give a damn what colour, shape, flavour or scent a Wikipedian is, I simply react to their edits. I am extremely tired of this US game of "playing the race card". It's racist. There I've said it.

No, there is no controversy over the "race of Ancient Egyptians". Not between "Afrocentrists and Eurocentrists" and certainlyh not between scholars. This is just a red herring used by Afrocentrists to create political noise.

If Slrubinstein feels that this article should discuss how "debates over the race of ancient Egyptians actually have been motivated by and reveal something about race relations in the 19th and 20th centuries" then I cordially invite him to sit down and write this article already. I am not holding my breath. I have been watching this article for literally FOUR years, and all it ever attracted was Afrocentric bs. That was until Moreschi sat down and put it straight. Now my entire involvement in this most recent eruption has been defending Moreschi's sane version from the most recent outbreak of Afrocentrist trolling. If Slrubenstein thinks he can actually improve on Moreschi's version, let him just put his money where his mouth is and do it already instead of filling talkpages with oblique attacks on me. --dab (𒁳) 15:51, 14 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I remember when Martin Bernal's (not an Afrocentrist) book came out, and there was indeed quite a controversy for quite some time. As is typical in academe, much of the criticism was legitimate and a sign of the kind of healthy debate that ought to characterize university life. Much of it wasn't. Some didn't like Egypt being portrayed as having such a great (and direct) influence ... and some didn't like Egypt being portrayed as African. Controversy? Yeah, I'd say it is out there. Was Moreschi's revision an improvement. Now, i generally have a lot of respect for Moreschi, but the answer is: no. His version was simply about refuting Afrocentric claims, the article was largely argumentative which an article generally ought not to be. The only time he mentioned eurocentric views, they were "perceived" eurocentric views. A good NPOV article would have the same attitude towards both Afrocentrism and Eurocentrism. I think the current version is much better. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:58, 14 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The academic debate about Bernal is a reliable source, but what you seem to be referring to as the more tricky question is some other type of debate which is "out there". Can that be sourced? I have not looked at the edits in question closely, but it is perhaps worth remarking that sometimes people interested in these debates are influenced heavily by their awareness of extensive internet debate, and come to think that this is so big and clear that it is obvious that it can be discussed on Wikipedia in a neutral way. I write this having been drawn into an article which appears to have similar problems, Sub-Saharan DNA admixture in Europe.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:12, 15 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Dougweller. While posting to the talk page of Slrubenstein I noted a comment you made to him re the problematic Ancient Egyptian race controversy article. I see your discussion about the scope of the article being limited to "scholars, journalists, activists, living in the twentieth century and using an argument over the past to forward present-day agendas." I see also your specific comment that "the article is about the history and development of the controversy, it is not about the race/color of the AE."

Please could I ask you two specific questions, and get a straight answer to both:

1. What is the compelling reason/s why the scope of the article should be limited so as to exclude any discussion about the underlying evidence which parties to the controversy on either side cite (however incorrectly) to support their various claims?

2. If indeed the scope of the article needs to be limited for valid reasons, why then can we not create a separate article to discuss the underlying evidence which parties to the controversy on either side cite(however incorrectly) to support their various claims?

I do not understand why this material, which is clearly relevant and which is thoroughly referenced, should be so ruthlessly suppressed. I heartily agree that Afrocentrist bs should be dealt with as such, but a rational and referenced debate of the actual "evidence" on which the Afrocentrist bs is founded, is surely the best way to clarify the matter to all interested readers. Obviously we need to enforce NPOV and OR etc, and obviously we need to be clear about what is mainstream and what is "fringe", but surely an open and balanced discussion of the "evidence" will clear the air much better than blanket bans and provocative words like "trolls"? I am also concerned that if this article disappears, then Afrocentrist bs will surface across the Wiki in articles like Cleopatra, Tutankhamun and the Sphinx etc - which is how I got to be involved in building this article in the first place.

I would value a straight-forward response please. Wdford (talk) 17:37, 14 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As you should know, I didn't make the first statement, so the appropriate place to discuss that is certainly not here. I strongly object to the 'ruthlessly suppressed' bit. You seem to have ignored the suggestion by DBachmann suggesting that some of the material be split into Population history of Egypt, or have I missed something? I'd like to see the controversy article cover "debates over the race of ancient Egyptians actually have been motivated by and reveal something about race relations in the 19th and 20th centuries" and from his post above it looks as though that would also satisfy DBachmann. And it's only by not extending good faith can DBachmann's edit be considered tendentious. And claims such as Panhesy's that there is a "pattern of banning black people who contribute based on inconsistently administered provocations." are just nonsense and are part of the problem here. Dougweller (talk) 17:57, 14 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There are lots of problems here, Dougweller. Its perhaps easy for you to strongly object to the 'ruthlessly suppressed' bit - you were not among the group of editors who were banned out of the blue and in violation of WP policy, with no discussion and zero AGF. Please recall also that Dbachmann did not "suggest" splitting off some material, he just went ahead and unilaterally moved part of the content to a separate article, without any discussion far less consensus. Dbachmann has openly adopted a certain POV on this article, and hence I suppose the description "tendentious", but my preferred word would be "disruptive". Personally I'd be very happy to include in the controversy article "debates over the race of ancient Egyptians actually having been motivated by and revealing something about race relations in the 19th and 20th centuries", provided that does not become the sole focus of the article. But notwithstanding the above, my actual questions remain unanswered. Please could you provide straight answers to my two questions? Many thanks Wdford (talk) 21:05, 14 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Since you won't acknowledge that I didn't make the first statement (but persist in asking for an 'answer' to something I didn't say), and haven't responded to my question, I don't see any point in continuing this discussion. Oh - everyone has a pov, it's best though when they are open about it. Dougweller (talk) 21:10, 14 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry Doug, I acknowledge that you didn't originally make the first statement. The only question I saw in your post was the one about did you miss something about Dbachmann's "suggestion", which I think I answered in full. If there was another question I would be happy to address it, again in full. I am happy that you accept everyone has a right to be open about their POV, although for some reason only some editors get banned for doing so. My questions are not directed at the first statement only, regardless of its origin, my questions are addressing the history of efforts to limit the scope of the article so as to exclude any discussion about the underlying evidence which parties to the controversy cite to support their various claims. It seems that you (among others) support a limited scope for the article, so I ask please could you clarify for me why (in your opinion) you feel the scope should be limited? Wdford (talk) 21:35, 14 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ok. Ancient Observer thinks there should be one article covering both the history of the controversy and the actual question of AE origins. I think that is undesirable and unnecessary, and wouldn't hold in any case as there would probably be continual suggestions to split it, and I don't mean just by current editors. Among other things it would almost undoubtedly be too long. An article, and there is at least one I believe, discussing the ethnicity of the AE should concentrate on modern sources and not bear the burden of obsolete ideas. Dougweller (talk) 15:04, 15 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. I am happy to have two articles, with cross-links. I'm sure that this would suit all parties who are working in good faith, as the existing article can then be limited to the history of the controversy as many seem to demand. However, how do we go about doing this so as to avoid accusations of "POV Fork"? Wdford (talk) 17:38, 15 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Why not ask DBachmann? Seriously. Dougweller (talk) 18:03, 15 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

UNfortunately that's is what they are doing. The notion that the egyptians were black is considered a fringe theory by the administrators here at Wikipedia. And evidence presented otherwise is labeled POV even though it meets NPOV standards. It's just called "Afrocentric". So it's circular. Anything presenting black egyptians is afrocentric because afrocentricism is also unfairly characterised as pseudo-science (instead of distinguishing the pseudoscience from the real science in it). Who were banned from editing for six months? Why were they banned? I quote "... for promoting fringe theories"... NPOV... only when not-black. --Panehesy (talk) 00:28, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ransom Everglades

As you might have noted - some guy named TheFeds made BIG changes to the school's entry. I think the Comparable Schools section was useful and shouldn't be eliminated. I agree it needs a reference. I'm contacting the school to find such a reference. Also he replaced the table with an infobox school. I liked it the way it was. I think the infobox is more for religious schools and not college prep schools. Could you help with this ? GroveGuy (talk) 20:41, 14 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

A threat to vandalize

This is a new one to me--have you ever seen a threat to vandalize other articles if we don't allow an image with questionable copyright to be included in an article? I wonder if this is actually Rock5410, who you indefinitely blocked yesterday due to refusal to discuss copyright issues surrounding images. (Notice that his response to that block has been to delete attempts to discuss with him on his talk page.) Is 122.163.79.68 one of the IP addresses associated with that account? I admit that I'm kind of at a loss here as to what to do, besides my response on that talk page. Suggestions? WeisheitSuchen (talk) 12:02, 16 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sure it is. I can't do a Check User but none is needed, this is clearly Rock5410 and I've blocked him -- 24 hours right now, we shall see what happens next. Let me know if you think you spot him again. Thanks. Dougweller (talk) 12:42, 16 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sock

My guess would be that JamesLavoie (talk · contribs) is Disfasia (talk · contribs). The account's first article edit was to revert back to Difasia's prefered version of National Holiday (Quebec). I also wonder about Knightofmaat (talk · contribs), whose only contributions are on Difasia's talk page in support of Difasia's arguments. I don't know if that's enough for an SPI / CU or not. Athanasius • Quicumque vult 19:06, 16 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Quite possibly. Knightofmaat hasn't been active, so I don't see any need to take action yet. Are there any discussion pages still open, ie not archived, about Disfasia? If so, maybe a note there would be useful. Dougweller (talk) 19:30, 16 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Block needed?

User Bottracker keeps uploading copyright images under false free licenses. Despite being warned they've continued to do so and just blank their talk page. I've just tagged a load for speedy deletion and don't really want them to have the opportunity to upload even more later on. Polly (Parrot) 19:09, 16 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've got to give a warning, which I've done, and the files are now deleted by another Admin. Dougweller (talk) 19:28, 16 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
They do seem rather aggressive, those messages on User:Daisy1213 talk page were quite nasty and now she seems to have retired. Polly (Parrot) 19:38, 16 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Blocking for past actions would be a bit like punishment, but deleting my warning means he is not willing to discuss the issues, so I've given him an indefinite block. Dougweller (talk) 20:32, 16 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Personal attacks and template warnings.

Please refer to: User talk:Jayron32#July 2009. I have made changes. Patchy1Talk To Me! 14:44, 17 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks very much for that. I'll admit that it isn't hard to make mistakes like that when you are a busy editor. Dougweller (talk) 16:04, 17 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Merge DAB pages?

Do we ever merge DAB pages? As long as I have been here, I have never heard of it being done, nor ever seen a merge proposal for two disambiguation pages. My question is not academic, either, I am actually asking because I believe the Day of the Dead (disambiguation) and Dia De Los Muertos (disambiguation) pages need to be merged. I see no justification for two pages on the same topic, especially considering the paucity of notable content on the latter page. How would I go about achieving this? Thanks for your time. ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 16:43, 17 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting. I was going to say let's just redirect the latter, but I think we should ask Cuchullain (talk · contribs) who created it and is also an Administrator. I'll ask him to comment here.
Thanks very much. I am interested in seeing what he says. ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 17:09, 17 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Book of Moses page

As I'm pretty new to editing on Wikipedia, I was unsure as to why the views of Jeffrey M. Bradshaw were removed, as they appear to be cited correctly and do correspond with other research from various subject matter experts (Margaret Barker, David Seely, S. Kent Brown, to name a few). Granted, the book mentioned isn't published (tho' many presentations have been given and articles written), and perhaps it's a bit lengthy, but with the backing of said experts, I don't know why it's necessary to disregard this research, especially as it gives background to an importance attributed to the book of Moses for those of LDS persuasion. To simply put aside the information there because it was written by a computer scientist seems a bit hasty to me. Could you explain your reasoning? ~Araignee (talk • contribs) 06:24, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for coming here to discuss it. Not being published yet is of course a big barrier. We just can't use an unpublished book as a source, nor can we call it critically acclaimed. Have you read WP:RS which described the sorts of things we consider reliable sources? If your other sources have said the same thing, then I suggest they be used. If you want to discuss whether something can be used as a reliable source, we have a noticeboard - WP:RSN where you can ask what other editors think. But Bradshaw's PhD is in computer science, he doesn't have works cited in scholarly sources, etc, so I can't see how he can be used as a reliable source -- according to our criteria, of course. You also need to be aware of WP:OR by the way. Dougweller (talk) 07:11, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Two other points. One, I've seen the comments on the website, but to use such comments we'd need to find them where they were originally published, and that needs to be independent of the author and publisher. I also wonder if publishing through Eborn is akin to self-publishing. Dougweller (talk) 07:25, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Understood. If I come across anything I'll update it, but for now I guess I'll leave it be. Thanks for your explanations. On a separate yet related vein, I was wondering if it could be explained as to why the book of Moses is not appropriate on the Creation according to Genesis page. The book of Moses is the Genesis creation story with a few extra verses and two extra chapters. Its origin is the book of Genesis, being a reinterpretation/translation directly pulled from Genesis. Is that not appropriate of mention at least on the Related Links section? It's not a big deal, but I'm just trying to figure out the ropes... ~Araignee (talk • contribs) 17:38, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This is interesting: http://www.bibleinterp.com/articles/persian.shtml. The website to which it belongs has many more such articles. PiCo (talk) 09:26, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

More Than Weird

Hi! I wrote a page about a young adult novel called more than weird. Here's the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/More_than_weird. Could you edit it or clean it up or wikifying it? Thanks! Neptunekh2 (talk) 14:27, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, but I don't think I can help directly. You might read WP:Tutor and also ask at the New Contributors help page at WP:NCH. I don't get involved with articles about fiction books very often, I'm afraid. Dougweller (talk) 14:55, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Bottracker

It is unclear to me why you indef. blocked this user. Can you provide me the edit diferences, or dates, for the harassment of another user? Slrubenstein | Talk 18:12, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The net's working very badly for me right now, and looking for that will take too long. It's an indefinite block, so it can be lifted at any time if the user shows an understanding of why they were blocked and a willingness to follow our guidelines and policies. As I recall, and I may be remembering someone else, it was a combination of copyright violation accompanied by refusal to discuss, and harassing another editor - isn't this the one where another Admin blocked them from their talk page after other Admins had declined to unblock? Why are you interested - have you been involved with this editor? Or do you think I did something I should not have done? Sorry not to be of more help, but even managing to load my talk page and do this edit is for some reason very time consuming - it's not Wikipedia, it's my Internet connection, a problem I'm trying to solve. Dougweller (talk) 18:44, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Someone (I think a banned user) called this case to my attantion. Normally I am very wary of indef. blocks.... but I won't undo this block or any other without checking with the person who blocked them and its your name on the notice (I didn't check the block history). In your notice you list precisely the things you mention. These all sound to me like things that can be mentored but you are absolutely right the person needs to understand. But looking at the person's talk page and contributions since April I honestly don't see the cause for an indef. block. Clearly, copyright violation was part of it. it looks to me like this user just doesn't or didn't understant the rules, and just need to be educated. harassing another user is another issue ... but just going back a few weeks I don't see it in the user contributions. That is why I am asking you. You do not need to reply now if you are having nextowrk problems but if in the nexxt few days you could provide me with the edit difs or dates that you felt justified an indef block I would appreciate it. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:05, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've replied on your talk page, the damn net is up and down for me. I would have been very happy to see the user unblocked and mentored. What would you do if someone continued to commit copyright violations, didn't respond on their talk page to requests to discuss, etc? So far as I'm concerned, if I indef block that person, all they have to do is start entering into dialogue. What they can't do is just continue their copyright violations. This particular editor seems a very angry one unwilling to listen, which is why his unblock request was declined and another admin blocked his access to his talk page (which seems like endorsement of my actions). I'm going to watch tv now! Dougweller (talk) 19:16, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. At this point I have no idea whether I would offer to mentor this guy or not. I think there is a huge problem at Wikipedia. It takes the appearance of racism or accusations against racism. I think it is really about something else: an overdetermination of very different communication styles, newbies who do not know the ropes, and encounters between people who are so primed to get defensive that something innocent can spark a wildly disproportionate and unacceptable response. I thinkw Wikipedians need to figure out a way to handle these situations, otherwise a disproporitonate number of blacks will be banned, for clear violations of policy, but the disproprotionate number (I admit it is a subjective guess) signals some problem about race that is NOT racism but has that effect ... Slrubenstein | Talk 19:43, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think I understand what you are saying, but it may not be race but nationality, or to be more specific the culture they grew up in, ie the way people from the same ethnic group behave may be shaped more by the culture they grew up in then by their ethnic group (seems obvious). Not an entirely different thing perhaps. Dougweller (talk) 20:45, 18 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Courtesy note

This is a courtesy note to inform you that the set of five recent Ancient Egyptian race controversy topic bans by Ice Cold Beer (talk · contribs) has been raised at arbitration enforcement for review: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Ancient Egyptian race controversy ban review. I am informing you because you are an involved party or commented at the arbitration clarification request. If you have any questions or concerns, please do not hesitate to leave me a talk page message. --Vassyana (talk) 01:25, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Afro-Asiatic and Proto-Afro-Asiatic

Hi, I've posted on your discussion about maps, and I hope it helps lead to more clear guidelines.

While writing it struck me that you may be interested in my current efforts to clean up the origins discussions on Afro-Asiatic and Proto-Afro-Asiatic. I have never worked on them much before, although aware they were not being looked at much. However when SOPHIAN and Wapondaponda were edit warring recently they were both impacting these articles, and they made a mess as you might expect. Because Kwamikagami was the admin who intervened I mentioned to him that I'd start work, realizing that there might be some objections coming from any of the editors who hang around Africa related subjects, and some "policy interpretation" issues needing admin (or moderator) input. As I mentioned to him, I felt I was in a reasonable position to help, having recently written a review article on the subject. (I am not intending to cite myself, it is just that I have stuff fresh in my mind.) As I've also mentioned to kwami:

1. I am getting some personal attacks which I am trying to address on the talkpage of the Wikipedian in question, User:Causteau. Comments would be welcome though. I am achieving very little through attempts at dialogue, and it is basically a big distraction to good editing. This is not a new problem.

2. Related to this, there is a neutrality debate which started with User:Causteau by accusing me of inserting POV FRINGE material by mentioning a theory of Martin Bernal. Causteau initially argued this author was not a known writer in this field, but when I mentioned that he is cited as a serious source by Lionel Bender he changed his position to saying that I am making it up. Some other editors with a very different approach then entered discussion to demand (I think that is a neutral description [1][2][3]) that all mention of non-linguists be removed, and indeed that non-linguists should leave the editing of these articles. Causteau therefore now says this is simply a case of 3 editors accusing another (me) of POV pushing. But all these arguments seem against Wikipedia policy, and I never even knew Bernal had theories on this until when I started reading all the recognized major articles, and I certainly don't agree with it, or object to calling it a controversial minority view. I just entered information about him along with all the other material I wrote in quite a big re-write. So to me it seems that removing all mention of this person's theories is going to remove neutrality, as would removing all discussion of archaeology and history. I note also using google that Bernal's theories are widely discussed by amateurs whether that be a good or bad thing. So in any case they have a high note in the real world, and people are going to come to Wikipedia looking for some sort of explanation. I guess I see this theory as a WP:TIGER. Am I doing something wrong here?

3. Coming from the above is now a discussion about article splitting. But this is also problematic in policy terms. If we are being pushed to split of a separate article about origins theories the nature of discussion so far seems to imply that there will be a POV fork. Because the 2 linguist-purist editors seem to be saying that "their" articles will continue to contain linguist's theories without the contamination of non-linguists. Obviously no neutral discussion of homelands can be purely linguistic?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 17:17, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Dia de los Muertos

Sorry, I missed you comment previously. I think I've solved the problem. Since there was only one remaining article on Dia De Los Muertos (disambiguation) (the other was deleted), there is no need for a separate disambig page. If in the future other articles of that title are created, I would suggest that the dab page be recreated, since they are actually in different languages.--Cúchullain t/c 01:23, 20 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ricco Rodriguez

The information you reverted is untrue and how do I know? Because I'm Ricco's manager... Me and Ricco had a sit down and looked over his wiki and corrected information about him. What do we need to do to get the page up to date and blocked from editing? A lawyer? "Cited from a reliable source" isn't good enough because it's obviously wrong. I don't understand how a person cannot edit HIS OWN information..

Is there a contact number for Wikipedia? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.27.49.203 (talk) 17:50, 20 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If you make anything that looks like a legal threat you will be blocked until you withdraw it. You've been referred to WP:COI. There is no way you are going to get the page blocked from editing. You need to follow our WP:RS policy. If something is clearly wrong, you can discuss it at WP:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard - anything damaging and badly sourced should in fact not be there, but take it up at the noticeboard, don't just remove it. You'll get more sympathy if you do that then if you just continually remove text. As I said, don't mention lawyers. There's no phone number I'm afraid. The noticeboard is your best best, seriously. Dougweller (talk) 18:58, 20 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Wittenberg University

Hello,

I have noticed that Wittenberg's page has been semi-protected for the past three months. I was wondering if it would at all be possible to remove that now? I think it is quite clear to the people editing the page that they must not be trying to "campaign" the school but rather put notable information.

Thank you!

(BHGJH (talk) 00:21, 21 July 2009 (UTC))[reply]

Done. Dougweller (talk) 05:31, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If you can spare the time...

Hello Dougweller. I created an article titled Holly Tucker witin the last few days and i have been running into problems with it. Shadowlynk has posted multiple warnings on the article ranging from speedy deletion to orphaned page (these debates can be found at his discussion page). I was wondering, since i am a newbie, if maybye you could take a look at the page and help me cleanup, make better use of the sources, and create an overall better page. Any help would be greatly appreciated, and if you cannot help, thank you anyway. Cheers! Akjgo94 (talk) 11:34, 21 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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